Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[veerus]

See what? An unclear QvRB ending?

[MafiaSSK]

It has come to my attention that people think I'm being a scuky mod. I will answer all concerns in this post.

1.,,, was a bump, massprods do not seems to work in this game/
2.Votecounts are also not necessary in this game recently seeing as almost all decisions can be counted by yourself.
3.I have failed at setting deadlines/
4.Prodding players, once again does not spark activity.
I do update the frist post I do try for replacements, I do follow the game. I do not fully keep this game halthy. This is all I can answer at the moment.

[Indigo Heron]

I don't think you're an incompetent moderator, for the record. I'm pretty indifferent towards you.

[Sudo_Nym]

You aren't a bad mod, this is just a game that's gone on way too long.

[MeMe]

2.Votecounts are also not necessary in this game recently seeing as almost all decisions can be counted by yourself.

What's the current vote count?

Apparently they're necessary for at least

some

of the players.

3.I have failed at setting deadlines

Is this something you're planning to rectify? I seriously don't understand what's happening here...

I'm on record as wanting to kill this game when it was just a wee thing of 7 months...now it's up to 16 (SIXTEEN!111) months old. Last time I tried, several of you said that it's "almost over anyway" and that was about 7 weeks ago. Do you all

really

want to keep playing? I don't think I can find another mod for this and you're all but guaranteed to lose another player.

[Abstract Actuary]

2.Votecounts are also not necessary in this game recently seeing as almost all decisions can be counted by yourself.

What's the current vote count?

Apparently they're necessary for at least

some

of the players.

3.I have failed at setting deadlines

Is this something you're planning to rectify? I seriously don't understand what's happening here...

I'm on record as wanting to kill this game when it was just a wee thing of 7 months...now it's up to 16 (SIXTEEN!111) months old. Last time I tried, several of you said that it's "almost over anyway" and that was about 7 weeks ago. Do you all

really

want to keep playing? I don't think I can find another mod for this and you're all but guaranteed to lose another player.

Is there a reason you want this game dead? Does it slow down the server (I've noticed this thread is slow). I just want to finish it for the sake of winning the chess game and then ultimately find out who was on which side.

I think the mod is doing alright, I would just put in faster deadlines. Most of us who are keeping up with the game make a post and vote within the first 2 or 3 days of the game-day. Just make a 1 week deadline. Push it back if there is serious discussion going on, if not, push the game along.

[Herodotus]

I think an issue is the absence of players. We seem to have 6, which means that reaching a majority out of 9 requires all but one of us to agree.

[veerus]

The server drain is likely not the problem.. lack of activity is..

MeMe, it's true that the game is almost over (relatively speaking). However, at the current rate, it may take a long time to finish. Personally I would vote for the game to be killed. In my mind, the game is won. White has a superior position and it's simply a matter of technique.

If we had all 9 players present, I bet the game would be over by now. But it's kind of hard to finish a game when, as has been pointed out, we have 6 active (sort of) people, of which 2 are likely black and are able to stall any anti-black move from ending the day.

If the game does die, I would definitely like to find out who black is.

[EmpTyger]

I PMed MeMe. I felt that this was a metagame concern, and so have been reluctant to discuss it in-thread. But since it’s here…

I do not believe that MafiaSSK is competent enough to mod this game to completion. This isn’t personal, just a conclusion based on what has transpired with the game, and based on what is *still* transpiring without any sign of change. What MafiaSSK is doing is not modding.
Modding is keeping the game moving, be it by prods, deadlines, whatever.
Modding is maintain the health of the game if a significant number of playerslots become empty.
Modding is enforcing deadlines, and maintaining deadlines.
Modding is presenting information clearly, be it by updating the firstpost (and no, it *still* isn’t up-to-date!) or posting votecounts, whether regularly or upon request.
Modding is actively following the game, and proactively and reactively responding to issues.
Modding is responding to player concerns- not repeatedly ignoring them.

I apologize to the other players, but I my agreement was to xreplace into this game. I didn’t agree to babysit an incompetent mod. I feel I’ve given MafiaSSK more than enough chances to improve, and I see the modding situation only deteriorating towards unplayability. So

either MafiaSSK leaves, or I do.

If this game is to continue, it’s going to be in one of the following ways:
1) With a new mod
2) With the players maturely self-moderating the remainder of an otherwise modless game (cf “Mature Mafia”)
3) Without me

[Sudo_Nym]

While I don't think MafiaSSK is incompetent per se, I think this one is just a huge challenge. For the same reason, I doubt self-modding would work in any real way.

In this case, I think a black player could mod, theoretically, as they could alter the front post with white moves, which they can't cheat on because everyone would know, and then put in their own moves without revealing themselves. This would have to be done carefully, of course, and they couldn't be in charge of prodding.

The other option is to simply end the game. Black has some ability for counterplay, but with correct play, it shouldn't amount to much.

[MafiaSSK]

Oh, fine. I resign from moderating this game. Meme can do what she wants with it. If she ends it, then I'll post the roles and all that jazz.

[Abstract Actuary]

Oh, fine. I resign from moderating this game. Meme can do what she wants with it. If she ends it, then I'll post the roles and all that jazz.

Thanks! This is probably going to look great on your resume!

[veerus]

Pretty sure he doesn't care considering he got stuck with a poorly designed game. MSSK, thanks for sticking it out as long as you have.

[EmpTyger]

So, do we want to try to play on? The way I see it, in order to play, we would need the following:

1) A commitment to the integrity of the game from everyone involved here.
2) Deadlines or replacements, to allow the game to progress. (Although really, I think we need deadlines regardless of whether we get replacements or not.)
3) Either a new mod, or some creative ways of handling the logistics of moderatorial duties.

I have some ideas for 2 and 3, but I’m not going to spend much time working on it if we don’t have 1. So, thoughts?

(And- I do realize there may be some alignment-bias issues at play. I’m not sure how to handle that other than through an intermediary such as MeMe, but I don’t know if that’s practical.)

---

AA:
At the risk of making a broader geopolitical point, of all the things I think MafiaSSK should be blamed for, finally deciding not to obliviously and futilely stay a deteriorated course is not one of them.

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm committed to finishing this game out. I like to finish things I start.

I didn't think MafiaSSK was a particularly terrible mod, as others have expressed, although I think the quality was going down and I think part of the deterioration of this game has been due to the modding. But to me, "abandoning" a game as a moderator is pretty much an ultimate sin. And I was under the impression to even be a moderator on this site you need to have a "resume", so I was just commenting that an abandoned game as a moderator is going to look awful on his "resume".

[Herodotus]

I'd like to continue, as long as others wish to.
Also, I would request that even if black resigns, don't post who you are until we've had a chance to make our guesses.

[MeMe]

OK, can someone let me know if there's any action I need to take here? I see that MafiaSSK has stepped down and you all are planning to continue and that's fine. I have the ability to edit the first post, but I've never looked at the chess board coding, so I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing there.

In short, if you require my services, someone needs to PM me. Otherwise, I'll just check to make sure there's activity here and leave you to it.

[Abstract Actuary]

Ok, so what is the plan? Try to keep the game going ourselves and PM MeMe whenever a move decision is reached? Or someone on black with some integrity/mod experience PM MeMe and request Mod powers over this thread (to lock it and update moves).

I think option 2 or getting a new Mod is the only way this is actually going to work.

[EmpTyger]

Really don't have time to post right now, but I think at the minimum we need to establish an objectively fair deadline system, way to handle votecounts, and [optimistically] to allow a replacement. I think it's possible but I seriously have to run right now- will post more tomorrow.

[Mr. Black]

So, I've talked to MeMe, and have offered to take over modding as a hydra account, so that we can continue this game; after all, we've got to post our own moves so as to not give ourselves away. We also recommend a strict deadline, so that we can only bother counting the votes of active players and simply ignore inactive players instead of hunting for replacements constantly.

[Abstract Actuary]

Ok, so does that mean a majority will be reached with a different number of players? Can you make those rules completely clear?


Back to the game. There are aspects about both moves that I don't like. Re8 has the advantage of removing all counterplay. [[R1e2 is still causing problems, so I had to work around it in the move history.]]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Rxg5 29. hxg5 Bxg5 30. Re5 Qg8 31. Qf5 Rg7 32. Rhe1 Bh4 33. Qe4 Qf8 34. Re2 Qg8 35. Qf5 f3 36. Re8 fxe2 37. Rxg8 Kxg8 38. Kxe2

Whereas Qxf3 leads to some dicey positions. Can someone walk me through our responses after

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Rxg5 29. hxg5 Bxg5 30. Re5 Qg8 31. Qf5 Rg7 32. Rhe1 Bh4 33. Qe4 Qf8 34. Re2 Qg8 35. Qf5 f3 36. Qxf3 Rxg4 37. Qxd5 Bg5

[veerus]

We also recommend a strict deadline, so that we can only bother counting the votes of active players and simply ignore inactive players instead of hunting for replacements constantly.

Which could put white in a disadvantage when we're down to 5-6 people, 2 of which will insist on the "wrong" move for white. Anything less than 7 active people will suck.

And AA, in the 2nd scenario, pretty sure 37. Re8 is the right move with Kd3 as the escape after Bg5.

[EmpTyger]

I'd rather make sure all players are playing by the same rules first, and then try to figure out an optimal move for some of us.

Integrity

All players need to agree to maintain the integrity of the game. Whatever rules we're playing by, we've all got to agree to uphold them.

Deadlines

1 week deadlines for Day, 2 day deadlines for Night.
At deadline, whichever move has the most votes. If there's a tie, Mr. Black breaks the tie.

Replacements

We all passively advertise for replacements in signatures, and in the thread title. If (optimistically) someone is interested in replacing, they indicate in the game thread. We randomly choose which inactive player they will replace, and then Black PMs them the correct alignment.

Votecounts

Whenever anyone posts a move or unmove (or vote or unvote, theoretically) they include a revised movecount.

[Sudo_Nym]

^I can agree to that.

[Abstract Actuary]

I agree to that.