Last Will Mafia (Over)

[TheLonging]

You are trying to whip up paranoia. I deem you have a fairly good chance at being scum.

I don't seem him whipping up paranoia.

In games I've played before, saying who your town reads are wasn't a good idea, as it shows scum who the town thinks is good and respected, and kills them. That's the mentality I've played with in every game at least :U

[Yosarian2]

you're bashing at net over and over for wanting Yos elected

This is not true. I find Netopalis scummy because of his strategy and his claim that if you don't want to elect Yos, you must find him scummy.

Gayle, something about 2/3rds of your posts have been attacks on me, most quite blatent and direct. Your whole stance here seems to be:

FOS Yos!

I don't trust Yos!

Yos is creepy!

Hey, Neto, how dare you say I think Yos is scummy! What's wrong with you?

Which just seems bizzare and skitzo to me.

He is wrong because I am not trying to whip up paranoia.

I can't think of a better way to describe what you're doing. You don't seem to be scumhunting, since whenever you're not attacking me you're angrily denying that you find me scummy.

[vikingfan]

Gayle...do you have any OTHER thoughts on anyone else playing besides Yos, Net, and Ray? I don't even see you posting on anyone else currently...

[Gayle]

Gayle, something about 2/3rds of your posts have been attacks on me

Outright lie. Either you are bad at math or you just wanted to make a sensational statement.

Your whole stance here seems to be:

FOS Yos!

I don't trust Yos!

Yos is creepy!

Hey, Neto, how dare you say I think Yos is scummy! What's wrong with you?

Which just seems bizzare and skitzo to me.

Mighty disingenuous, Mr. Yosarian.

-First, I FOS'd you because you were pointing out the obvious and calling it strategy discussion.
-Next, I said you were creepy and that I would rather elect someone else. When Neto asked me why, I gave reasons. Among those reasons was that you were a part of Netopalis' scummy strategy.
-Next, Netopalis used the "If you don't want to elect Yos, you must find him scummy" arguement on both Tatetothetot (I think) and myself. I argued that that argument was scummy.
-Finally, Netopalis and I argued over who knows what.

Also, just so you know I abuse the word disingenuous. Don't be surprised if you see it in every other post.

[Gayle]

Gayle...do you have any OTHER thoughts on anyone else playing besides Yos, Net, and Ray? I don't even see you posting on anyone else currently...

I like Socrates. I don't like dramonic. Null read on raider and yourself. It is difficult to have an opinion on anyone else, as they don't say much.

[dramonic]

He is wrong because I am not trying to whip up paranoia.

You know, he said scum would whip up paranoia, if the only reason you say he's wrong is because you arent whipping up anything...

[Yosarian2]

Gayle, something about 2/3rds of your posts have been attacks on me

Outright lie. Either you are bad at math or you just wanted to make a sensational statement.

Your whole stance here seems to be:

FOS Yos!

I don't trust Yos!

Yos is creepy!

Hey, Neto, how dare you say I think Yos is scummy! What's wrong with you?

Which just seems bizzare and skitzo to me.

Mighty disingenuous, Mr. Yosarian.

-First, I FOS'd you because you were pointing out the obvious and calling it strategy discussion.
-Next, I said you were creepy and that I would rather elect someone else. When Neto asked me why, I gave reasons. Among those reasons was that you were a part of Netopalis' scummy strategy.
-Next, Netopalis used the "If you don't want to elect Yos, you must find him scummy" arguement on both Tatetothetot (I think) and myself. I argued that that argument was scummy.

Gayle...you're not helping your case here.

Neto never said "If you don't want to elect Yos you must find him scummy". What he did do was assume that you weren't voting me because you found me scummy. Which is fair, since THAT WAS THE EXACT REASON YOU GAVE YOURSELF.

If you want to use "Yos said something I think was obvious, therefore he's scummy" as an argument, go for it. It's a terrible argument, especially in this case, but whatever. But you can not use arguments like that to accuse me of being scummy and then flip out when people think you suspect me; that dosn't even make sense.

What it looks to me is like you're trying to have it both ways; you want to plant the idea that "Yos is suspicious", but at the same time, you keep denying that you personally suspect me, because you don't want to look bad later when and I flip town.

[Netlava]

Pwnman needs to die a violent death and that is where my vote is going once the game proper starts.

Why pwnman in particular?

[Gayle]

Neto never said "If you don't want to elect Yos you must find him scummy". What he did do was assume that you weren't voting me because you found me scummy. Which is fair, since THAT WAS THE EXACT REASON YOU GAVE YOURSELF.

No, the reason I gave myself was that I didn't like your reactions and that I would rather elect someone else.

Also, Neto didn't use those exact words, but he certainly made the argument. Twice.

If you want to use "Yos said something I think was obvious, therefore he's scummy" as an argument, go for it. It's a terrible argument, especially in this case, but whatever. But you can not use arguments like that to accuse me of being scummy and then flip out when people think you suspect me; that dosn't even make sense.

Disingenuous. There is a difference between questioning someone and calling someone scummy.

What it looks to me is like you're trying to have it both ways; you want to plant the idea that "Yos is suspicious", but at the same time, you keep denying that you personally suspect me, because you don't want to look bad later when and I flip town.

I've explained myself several times. If you want to continue to paint it this way, that is up to you.

Actually, let's solve this problem: As of PS376, you are now one of my top suspects. Congratulations.

Also, pointing out your lies and your sensational, disingenuous statements isn't helping my case? Well, it certainly isn't helping yours.

[Socrates]

How would you guys feel if I were to ever so subtly imply that Yos, Ray, Gayle, AND Tate are all town and the scum team is lurking right now?

[Yosarian2]

Neto never said "If you don't want to elect Yos you must find him scummy". What he did do was assume that you weren't voting me because you found me scummy. Which is fair, since THAT WAS THE EXACT REASON YOU GAVE YOURSELF.

No, the reason I gave myself was that I didn't like your reactions and that I would rather elect someone else.

Ok, explain this to me. If "I don't like X's reactions" dosn't mean "I suspect player X might be scum", then what does it mean?

You're not making sense, Gayle.

Also, Neto didn't use those exact words, but he certainly made the argument. Twice.

He didn't "make that argument"; he never argued that EVERYONE who's not voting for me suspects me or whatever. He did assume that the people attacking me might have suspected me.

If you want to use "Yos said something I think was obvious, therefore he's scummy" as an argument, go for it. It's a terrible argument, especially in this case, but whatever. But you can not use arguments like that to accuse me of being scummy and then flip out when people think you suspect me; that dosn't even make sense.

Disingenuous. There is a difference between questioning someone and calling someone scummy.

There is NO DIFFERENCE between saying "I don't like action X, FOS person A because he did action X" and saying "I think person A is scummy because of action X". No difference at all. Don't you see that?

What it looks to me is like you're trying to have it both ways; you want to plant the idea that "Yos is suspicious", but at the same time, you keep denying that you personally suspect me, because you don't want to look bad later when and I flip town.

I've explained myself several times. If you want to continue to paint it this way, that is up to you.

No, you have never "explained yourself", you've just gone back and fourth and contradicted yourself over and over again. That's a very different thing.

Actually, let's solve this problem: As of PS376, you are now one of my top suspects. Congratulations.

Lol. Nice try, but changing your mind AGAIN now still dosn't actually explain your scummy reversals and denials throughout the course of the day here.

I was trying to point out to you how little sense you are making in post 376, and in fact, in post 378, you admitted every single relevant point I brought up in 376 (first, you FOS'd me and attacked me; then you said I was creepy; then you attacked Neto for saying you suspected me.) The only thing 378 added to that was a misrepresentation of Neto, which just makes you look worse.


But please, explain how my accurate description of your behavior in post 376 "made me your suspect". I want to hear this.

Also, pointing out your lies and your sensational, disingenuous statements isn't helping my case?

Um...what?

I certainly haven't lied at all, nor have I made any "sensational disingenuous statements". Your behavior has been bizzare at best, a combination of constantly doing one thing and then denying you're doing that exact thing, and attacking anyone who pointed out what you were doing, and you have yet to explain any of it.

[tatetothetot]

How would you guys feel if I were to ever so subtly imply that Yos, Ray, Gayle, AND Tate are all town and the scum team is lurking right now?

I would go with it. I doubt that all the listed are town but for now, more scum are lurking then not. Most of these arguments right now seem town on town.

Gayle's recent back and forth between Yos got rather intense with the two blatantly stating that the other was lying and acting scummy.

I am ready for this phase to be over so we can actually get into the day 1 scum hunting. There are a few people whom I would like to call out and get some pressure on.

Ray or Yos people, pick one and make it fast.

[Yosarian2]

How would you guys feel if I were to ever so subtly imply that Yos, Ray, Gayle, AND Tate are all town and the scum team is lurking right now?

(shrug) I'm never opposed to someone attacking the lurkers. I'm having trouble seeing how Gayle could actually be a pro-town person who believes what he's saying, though.

[Yosarian2]

I am ready for this phase to be over so we can actually get into the day 1 scum hunting. There are a few people whom I would like to call out and get some pressure on.

Who? Also, why are you waiting?

[tatetothetot]

I am ready for this phase to be over so we can actually get into the day 1 scum hunting. There are a few people whom I would like to call out and get some pressure on.

Who? Also, why are you waiting?

Calling out people for lynches is not what I want to do durning this phase. I want people to pick on someone whom we can count as town for our double vote.

Day 1 is when I feel the real scum hunting needs to be done as we can actually vote then.

[Yosarian2]

Gayle's recent back and forth between Yos got rather intense with the two blatantly stating that the other was lying and acting scummy.

This is IITA, by the way, and strikes me as wishy-washy equivocation. What do you think of the exchange between me and Gayle? Do you agree with him, do you agree with me, or what?

Calling out people for lynches is not what I want to do durning this phase. I want people to pick on someone whom we can count as town for our double vote.

Day 1 is when I feel the real scum hunting needs to be done as we can actually vote then.

There's never a bad time to start scumhunting.

Besides which, if we can figure out who we suspect are scum, then obviously that'll make it easier to figure out who to give the double vote to. If we don't scumhunt, then how are we supposed to figure out who we trust and who we don't?

[Socrates]

How would you guys feel if I were to ever so subtly imply that Yos, Ray, Gayle, AND Tate are all town and the scum team is lurking right now?

(shrug) I'm never opposed to someone attacking the lurkers. I'm having trouble seeing how Gayle could actually be a pro-town person who believes what he's saying, though.

Heres how I parse Gayle's argument:

Gayle doesn't think your strategy discussion was worthy of being considered a town tell.
Gayle is highly suspicious of Neto, because of Neto's proposed strategy.
Neto is voting to elect you, for reasons that she doesn't agree with.
Gayle doesn't trust Neto, wants to elect someone other than the person he is supporting.

Then you guys start butting heads in earnest and now she is genuinely suspicious of you, in the same fashion that most of these fights tend to lead to confirmation bias.

So yea, I am not particularly suspicious of Gayle right now, and I think I can put myself in her shoes.

[Socrates]

Pwnman needs to die a violent death and that is where my vote is going once the game proper starts.

Why pwnman in particular?

Lurkerscum who hopped onto the Yos wagon when the rational was that Yos is smart and has done nothing else but worry about the obviously fake daykill by rayfrost.

[Yosarian2]

Edit: Meant to say "IIoA" in my last post, that was a typo.

Heres how I parse Gayle's argument:

Gayle doesn't think your strategy discussion was worthy of being considered a town tell.

That was what Tat said. (Well, eventually) Gayle never said that it was "a null tell" or "not much of a town tell" or whatever. Gayle constantly seemed to be implying that it was a scum tell, while denying that that's what he was doing; pretty much every one of his posts were either a suggestion that he thought I looked suspicious, or a suggestion that me and Neto were scum together trying to give me power.

[tatetothetot]

Gayle's recent back and forth between Yos got rather intense with the two blatantly stating that the other was lying and acting scummy.

This is IITA, by the way, and strikes me as wishy-washy equivocation. What do you think of the exchange between me and Gayle? Do you agree with him, do you agree with me, or what?

Calling out people for lynches is not what I want to do durning this phase. I want people to pick on someone whom we can count as town for our double vote.

Day 1 is when I feel the real scum hunting needs to be done as we can actually vote then.

There's never a bad time to start scumhunting.

Besides which, if we can figure out who we suspect are scum, then obviously that'll make it easier to figure out who to give the double vote to. If we don't scumhunt, then how are we supposed to figure out who we trust and who we don't?

Despite your reasoning, I would prefer to hold off on my scum accusations until day 1. Bringing new information that does not effect you and Ray would only distract town more and prevent us from doing what needs to be done... which is pick a double voter.

The intense part was directed more towards Gayle as I don't think you actually called him a liar. He was taking the conversation almost to an emotional level so if I was forced to take a part in your dispute, it would be yours.

[Netopalis]

Socrates: Except, Gayle started saying this before she really expressed distrust of me. It seems that her distrust formed when I started advocating for Yos. Also, to clarify, I don't believe that *all* votes should go to one player. I do believe that most votes should go to a core group of players who we can trust, and that we need to make sure that those players don't all have the same people at the top of their wills. If we give the votes to somebody inactive or flighty, we stand the risk of no-lynching or mislynching based on the whim of someone who pops in, reads only the last page and posts. Also, a more detailed analysis of Gayle's case to follow.

[Yosarian2]

I do believe that most votes should go to a core group of players who we can trust, and that we need to make sure that those players don't all have the same people at the top of their wills.

The last part there sounds like a bad idea, because it seems to man we'd be discussing who people are putting on top of their wills.

Unless we've got multiple people dying each night, we shouldn't need to discuss it; let's just agree that if you've got someone on the top of your list, but they've already got 3 or 4 votes, just move someone else up to the top of your list instead; I don't think it's a good idea to discuss specific people, though.

[Netopalis]

Gayle has made 43 posts in this game. Of those, 24 are directly attacking Yosarian. Another 5 relate directly to my support of Yosarian. Only 14 of his posts can be said to not contain a reference to Yosarian, and most of those are joke posts or random votes.

He continues to maintain that he does not find Yosarian scummy, but he also makes the following statements:

"FoS: Yos Because I can't bandwagon him. "

"Also, elect anyone but Yos to mayor (when did we start calling it that?). His reactions are creeping me out. "

"Why Yosarian2 Is Creepy
1. He begins the game and makes the startling discovery that mafia has a different win condition from normal. Shockingly, they win by
controlling half of the votes! Even more shocking, if they get those votes quickly, THE GAME WILL END QUICKLY. Thankfully, Yos was here
to warn us about such danger. He also suggests the obvious strategy (obvious to everyone except Netopalis, apparently) of making sure no
one person gains too much power.

2. He claims that his above discovery required careful study of the game rules.

3. When [insert name here] says the he believes yos did the above in order to look pro town and garner votes, Yos interprets this as
"Yos is obviously right and therefore scum"

4. He completely ignores my last post addressed to him.

5. You advocate concentrating power in the "best" players, and you have already made it known that Yos is one of these players"

"Mighty disingenuous, Mr. Yosarian. "

Gayle seems to make the following claims: That because she has a vague and uncertain feeling of disingenuity emanating from myself and Yosarian, everybody else should drop what they're doing and elect RayFrost. RayFrost is a good candidate, but the argument itself does not hold water. He never backs up this claim, and when anybody attacks him with it, he invariably responds with one of two responses: Either "You're scummy!" or "There are other reasons!"

What are those other reasons, Gayle? You've stated repeatedly that there are other reasons, but you have yet to explain one. Personally, as far as I'm concerned, your misrepresentation, deliberate derailing of the town and desire to control the votes of players without giving solid reasoning behind your own votes add up to scum.

Justify your actions or face the noose.

[Netopalis]

Yos: Agreed. I wasn't suggesting that we compare lists or anything, just that we be careful to not have people who already have a ton of votes at the top of our lists.

[Gayle]

Ok, explain this to me. If "I don't like X's reactions" dosn't mean "I suspect player X might be scum", then what does it mean?

It means that I don't like X's reactions.

There is NO DIFFERENCE between saying "I don't like action X, FOS person A because he did action X" and saying "I think person A is scummy because of action X". No difference at all. Don't you see that?

So you cannot find a player's actions questionable without believing they are scum?

No, you have never "explained yourself", you've just gone back and fourth and contradicted yourself over and over again. That's a very different thing.

I have. You don't want to accept those explanations. I disagree that I ever contradicted myself.

But please, explain how my accurate description of your behavior in post 376 "made me your suspect". I want to hear this.

Your claims in that post were disingenuous, sensational or outright lies.

I certainly haven't lied at all, nor have I made any "sensational disingenuous statements".

Take one more look at 376. Tell me that the first line isn't a lie. Tell me that the following four lines weren't both sensational and disingenuous.

---

Socrates: Except, Gayle started saying this before she really expressed distrust of me.

Sure about that?