Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Albert B. Rampage]

I looked at the context. I don't agree with your interpretation.

Then you are blind.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Random observation: SC thinks Sando is town because he doesn't think he'd try to derail a wagon on a scumbuddy at L-1, when SC himself tried to derail the wagon on xRx.

Good point...

[Vi]

@Troll: Is ABR Town?
Why hito over SerialClergyman?

@hito: Nothing will ever come from a vote that isn't cast. I thought you said you were over this meta.~
Elaborate a bit on your thoughts about these two not getting lynched.

@DDD: What's your opinion of hito?

I get that I didn't 'start' the wagon on Reck. I think that my voting him directly lead to him being put to L-1 within a few votes and drew out reasons without votes from VP. All this doesn't matter, however, because I actively tried to diffuse his wagon afterwards and attacked one of his major attackers in Albert. I think on the whole, it's unreasonable to try to claim town points for pushing Reck's lynch. I was against it at the end, just wrongly so.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but I don't like what I think I'm reading.

I think both sides of the xRx vs. PCE debate have merit, but based on what I read of xRx's playstyle I don't really think it's a good tell either way. Yes, the wagon was pitched right to xRx (that was an obvious slowball for xRx, right down to "PRETTEH SCUMMEH"), but he then started wagoning PCE, but then I kind of think xRx would do that anyway.

[Sando]

Serial Meta

Serial has deviated fairly significantly from my meta view of him, especially on D2. Serials D1 meta is pretty much a null tell every time, he plays the same basically every game, unless he gets a really strong read one way or another. As he stated, he likes to play a pretty jovial D1. D2 this is not the case, he’s much more aggressive and logical with his scumhunting, and he rarely ‘gambits’. Things like his claimed gambits of getting ABR to OMGUS vote him, and testing the waters with the Reckoner wagon fall outside of Serials typical play. He’s a dog with a bone once someone is in his sights, and he’s been anything but this game.

Serials treatment of Ojanen:

This is fairly meta, and some of this comes down to me saying ‘serial has told me xyz’, which at the moment you have to just take on faith. But I’ve decided to put it in, worst comes to worst I’ll be lynched/NKd at some point and you’ll see that it comes from a town POV with no need or want to lie.

Serial has basically the same view on Ojanen as me meta wise. Ojanen was a newbie in my first game, which she won as scum. We’ve both since played with her a few times, and I’ve played in a hydra with her. Serial asked my views on Ojanen and we’ve ‘compared notes’ on Ojanen, as she’s probably the most common and best player we’ve played against regularly. So my opinion of Ojanen has developed in talking to Serial, so our views are pretty similar. That view is that Ojanen is very non-commital as scum. The difference in Ojanens scum and town play has been very very distinct until her last few games, when I think VLA/sickness has caused her town play to look scummy. But before Ojanen flipped pro-town this game, I’d have lynched Ojanen pretty much purely on this read, and Serial, who is a more gut player than me, would probably do the same. I just want to highlight how strong both of our feelings were on our Ojanen read.

In light of this, Serials mild accusation against Ojanen is the first thing I started getting suspicious of. You can see from my D1 play that I was highly suspicious of Ojanen, but I didn’t know what to make of her atypical defence and was having a pretty lazy day to be fair, so not much came of it. I’m incredibly confident that Serial would have had the same, or close to, opinion of Ojanen’s D1 play, yet he stayed on the sidelines, preferring to throw the odd accusation but never follow it up. In Iso 7 he questions Ojanen’s lack of vote, and Iso 20 calls for people to look into Ojanen, and then echoes my view of Ojanen in 31. For someone who trusts his gut as much as Serial, not following this up on someone who he feels he has a very good meta read on looks very dodgy.

Serial’s Charlatan Case:

In Iso 15 Serial jumps on the Charlatan wagon to ‘avoid confirmation bias’, so pretty weak start. In Iso 16 he calls out Charlatan for his attack on VPB’s LAL comments, something I also did, yet Serial found me pro-town. But all this is foreplay, it gets fun in Iso 21.
Iso 21 Serial basically boils down his case on Charlatan to fence-sitting:

this is still fence sitting

- Charlatan was not fence-sitting, finding both sides of an argument scummy is not fence-sitting, and it’s not abnormal/scummy.
- Serial suggests that since Charlatan found ABRs reasoning weak, that Charlatan therefore must find the target of that reasoning, VPB, pro-town. Why serial would ignore the idea that scum that were distancing from each other would obviously use weak arguments, or that he could have found both sides arguments weak, I don’t know, but it looks scummy to me.
Iso 34 – Attacks ABR for moving off Charlatan (this ties in quite funnily (read: scummily) with Iso 44 on D2.)
Iso 42 –

We've just had a game where charlatan skillfully convinced the entire town that he was a townie. He never looked like being lynched and didn't make any glaring mistakes that I noticed.

So Serial is stating that Charlatan’s meta has changed from last game, where Charlatan was scum, so Charlatan must be scum?
Iso 44 – Serials First D2 post, and he accuses ABR of jumping onto the Charlatan wagon when he didn’t need to, interesting take given his attacks on ABR for leaving the wagon in the first place.

Serials Reck flip-flop

Iso 46 – Votes Reck
Iso 47 –

Vi - xRx came onto my scumlist during the wagon hopping yesterday and PCE was always lightly scummy, I just thought the charlatan argument wasn't resolved

Serial did not mention Reck D1, yet he was apparently ‘on his scumlist’...
Iso 48 – Yes, his next post, Serial starts eating away at the Reck wagon, and he happily derails the wagon.
Then in Iso 58 we get his

Reck’s is a poor wagon, imo.

So Serial starts a wagon, realises ‘oh crap, I just started a wagon on my buddy’, and derails.

Lastly, both Serial and I were fairly upset last game about the lack of NK speculation, giving scum free kills. Yet this game he hasn’t done anything to try and turn that around, and this is with him and Ojanen both being on the same wagon at the end of yesterday, VPB. Surely if it worried him so much last game, the NK of his wagon buddy would ring alarm bells for him...

Vote: SerialClergyman

I agree with Zorblag in suspecting Serial and Hito. Hito claiming that the only reason he didn't vote me D2 was that there was no support conveniently ignores the Vi vote on me for a fair amount of D2, which was the same number of votes as ABR had when Hito was 'forced' to wagon him. Thinking Serial is a better lynch for today though.

VPB, your vote isn't Reck-wagon motivated, what is motivating it other than to force someone who is stated as VLA to post?

Vi, you do find my Reck-wagon statements scummy?

[VP Baltar]

VPB, your vote isn't Reck-wagon motivated, what is motivating it other than to force someone who is stated as VLA to post?

It is actually. I feel looking back that you weren't commenting much on Reck, which is a viable scum strategy. That being said, I do think Serial may be a better case to pursue and a cursory glance at your case (short on time atm) has me a agreeing with some of your points, particularly the Reck flip and his weird play this game in relation to his meta.

Unvote, Vote: SerialClergyman

Catching up with a few other things in a few hours when I have some more time.

[Zorblag]

@VP Baltar, xRECKONERx, when he cast the vote for PorkchopExpress, was just second on a wagon which only ever grew to four out of seven needed (I think.) Given that he had a couple other suspects listed at the time who had votes on them I'm not at all convinced that he wouldn't have tried to switch to either the charlatan or Debonair Danny DiPietro wagon if the PorkchopExpress wagon ever got too close to lynch. Staying off the charlatan wagon seems like something he would probably have wanted to do if he thought it was going to happen without him.

@hitogoroshi, I am willing to talk about Debonair Danny DiPietro now, yes. He made my day one no-lynch list when I thought that Amished and VP Baltar were masons. I needed to have more names than just theirs to not talk about so that it would be a bit less clear why I didn't want to vote for them. I saw a few things that looked like Debonair Danny DiPietro might be trying to draw a mason-suspect night kill so I gave him the message in Post 404 which was potentially to let him know that others (Amished in particular) might either be masons or be faking it and to draw some attention to his joining my list. SerialClergyman was the other on that list because he'd drawn attention to the interactions in the first place.

Day two, when I made my statement, I still hadn't fully revealed that I had thought that Amished and VP Baltar were masons on day one so I figured I might as well keep holding over the not interested in voting status for Debonair Danny DiPietro and SerialClergyman.

And of course none of that tells you what I think of Debonair Danny DiPietro. My guess is that he's town. I like his vote on xRECKONERx going back to day one. I think that he's wrong about Albert B. Rampage now and that he needs to just forget the WIFOM thing from xRECKONERx (there's no need to try to outguess scum in this situation; we've got enough other evidence to look at that we shouldn't have to try to hit scum by figuring out the degree to which he'd lie when he knew he was going down anyhow) but I do think that he's doing more to help the town than hinder.

@Vi, Albert B. Rampage is probably town at this point. He continues to narrow his attention in a way that I think fits his town play. I disagree with the individual statements he's making (his hitogoroshi is 100% scum stance is pretty ridiculous, I don't agree that both scum need to have been in on the bus and his interpretation of xRECKONERx being forced to follow his lead on PorkchopExpress doesn't seem to be based on anything I can see in the game are a few examples) but if he was scum I'd expect him to still be throwing more flack out there rather than to be this focused.

I voted hitogoroshi over SerialClergyman because my scum read on hitogoroshi is a bit stronger. I'm pretty willing to be part of either wagon today though I'd like to hear SerialClergyman's reaction to what I said to hitogoroshi there. One of the issues that hasn't quite settled for me for SerialClergyman is how he dealt with Amished and VP Baltar day one (and then how he framed it mentioned it on day two.) hitogoroshi's actions are more clear cut to me.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Albert B. Rampage]

Zorblag, why didn't you want to explain why you don't want to vote for DDD, earlier in the game? You were being extremely cryptic for no reason.

[Zorblag]

@Albert B. Rampage, I did have a reason for being cryptic (and I tried to explain it some in my last post.) Day one I was throwing some interference into the mix to make my reasons for attention less clear so that scum who were hunting for masons would have less of a chance of picking up exactly what I was working with should they look closely. Debonair Danny DiPietro was on a number of people's radars so I didn't have to worry about him playing an unexamined scum game but I didn't have any particular suspicion of him; he made an excellent candidate for the role of red herring. Come day two I still didn't suspect him and he was pushing for xRECKONERx's lynch which was a fine idea. I didn't have anything that needed to be said regarding him so there wasn't any compelling reason to change my stance. If there was a chance that scum would waste effort trying to figure out what I was onto there it seemed worth it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Albert B. Rampage]

Why did you at one point name 5 players that you wanted to keep alive then?

[Vi]

Vi, you do find my Reck-wagon statements scummy?

More like your lack of xRx-wagon statements, if you're talking about D2.

Lastly, both Serial and I were fairly upset last game about the lack of NK speculation, giving scum free kills. Yet this game he hasn’t done anything to try and turn that around, and this is with him and Ojanen both being on the same wagon at the end of yesterday, VPB. Surely if it worried him so much last game, the NK of his wagon buddy would ring alarm bells for him...

I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying that VP Baltar is scum?

I don't know anything about SerialClergyman's meta, so I can't evaluate that. The rest of your case looks surprisingly decent.

---

I disagree with the individual statements he's making (his hitogoroshi is 100% scum stance is pretty ridiculous,

(...)

I voted hitogoroshi over SerialClergyman because my scum read on hitogoroshi is a bit stronger.

How certain are you that hito is scum?

[Sando]

I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying that VP Baltar is scum?

Nope. I'm saying that I would expect Serial to see Ojanens death as vindication of his D2 suspicion of VPB.

What I'm saying is that Serial felt that after I was lynched and he was NKd on D1/N1 in the last game, not enough attention was paid to who we were attacking. We were both pushing an Amished lynch, and he turned out to be scum.

Now considering that Serial was on a wagon with last nights NK target, why isn't he bringing up the possibility that Ojanen was killed to detract attention from who she suspected. If he felt that scum were getting away with kills on people attacking them with relative impunity last game, and I know he did (and you can too if you read the dead QTopic, although we also spoke about it outside of that), then not pursuing it today strikes me as extremely odd.

My personal views on VPB are mostly pro-town. I had a lot of suspicion on D1 and early D2, but I think that was clouded by him annoying me greatly.



So you don't find me scummy for derailing, but for a lack of comment on Reck himself? Fair enough. But you think I'm scum, therefor you must think that my comments about the wagon were scum trying desperately to save a scum-partner?

And VPB, yeah, I reread and saw where you said the Reck thing was scummy. You the same as Vi, or think the derail was more the scummy move?

[Vi]

So you don't find me scummy for derailing, but for a lack of comment on Reck himself? Fair enough. But you think I'm scum, therefor you must think that my comments about the wagon were scum trying desperately to save a scum-partner?

It's plausible that your derail had Town motivation. But then three questions are raised--
1) Why did you avoid talking about xRx (among others) yesterday?
2) Was your opposition to the first xRx wagon based on anything the wagonee actually

did

, or just the votes on the wagon?
3) You said you were primed to hate the second xRx wagon as well at the end of the Day, yet you haven't said anything about it yet. Your thoughts on how it went down?

[SerialClergyman]

Sando - essentially my reads have been pretty bad this game. I do think VP is scummy (remember him writing a case against Reck but not voting?) but I also decided that my reads were pretty bad and Albert was (town and) spot on, so it was time to wagon up.

For Ojanen - I pressured her more than most people did this game. I also am in another ongoing game where she was sick and knew she was town so was aware that I had to take her meta with a grain of salt. So my attack on her was measured for a reason.

For meta - Zzz what's with people trying to use my meta all of a sudden? Go tell VP about that dog with a bone bit, it might be useful for another game. I don't walways play jovial, and I've had limited time so my posts are much less infrequent. I never claimed a gambit to get Albert to OMGUS me, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The only thing that could possibly be referring to is my vote on Reck without reasons, which was to gague whether anyone else found him scummy on gut. As it turned out, I misread the results as -scum are piling onto easy wagon- rather than -everyone agrees he's obvscum-, so my bad. But how that related to a gambit to get ALbert to OMGUS me is beyond me.

The charlatan case - was weak, check, it was a D1 case (and wrong). I had different opinion on ABR's movement on the wagons on D1 and D2 because charla flipped scum inbetween those days.

So Serial is stating that Charlatan’s meta has changed from last game, where Charlatan was scum, so Charlatan must be scum?

Serial is not stating that. Serial is stating that saying charlatan is a stupid, bad town player as opposed to a scummy player (as ABR did) doesn't make sense because I know him to be an excellent player, as evidenced by last game.

So Serial starts a wagon, realises ‘oh crap, I just started a wagon on my buddy’, and derails.

This happens regularly to me. ><. Reck wasn't worth saving if I was his buddy, especially not in such a public manner.

[VP Baltar]

And VPB, yeah, I reread and saw where you said the Reck thing was scummy. You the same as Vi, or think the derail was more the scummy move?

It's mostly just your avoidance of Reck that bothers me. You really didn't have a whole lot to say about him. I think Vi's 3rd question above is the most important, though you've somewhat answered it in the sense that you've said who you find most scummy.

I do think VP is scummy (remember him writing a case against Reck but not voting?)

You mean when he was at L-2 and hito hadn't even finished catching up yet? Seems like the best time to be rushing a wagon.

[Sando]

So you don't find me scummy for derailing, but for a lack of comment on Reck himself? Fair enough. But you think I'm scum, therefor you must think that my comments about the wagon were scum trying desperately to save a scum-partner?

It's plausible that your derail had Town motivation. But then three questions are raised--
1) Why did you avoid talking about xRx (among others) yesterday?
2) Was your opposition to the first xRx wagon based on anything the wagonee actually

did

, or just the votes on the wagon?
3) You said you were primed to hate the second xRx wagon as well at the end of the Day, yet you haven't said anything about it yet. Your thoughts on how it went down?

1) I wasn't specifically trying to avoid it, but I didn't have much/anything to add. I found Reck slightly scummy, maybe enough to justify a vote, but probably not, and my misgivings about the wagon pushed me away from voting.

2) Well I wasn't a keen supporter of the wagon, irrespective of the wagonees, so that was a bad read from me. But my opposition to the wagon was because of the wagoners, yes. If not for my misgivings about that, I might have voted, I might not have, but I wouldn't have raised serious doubts about the wagon.

I guess you can say my lack of vote was Reck-action driven, my opposition was wagoner misgivings driven.

3) I don't think I ever said I was primed to hate it. But yes, I was going to comment on it. DDD and Zorblag were still there, and while I didn't find him scummy, Zorblag's play reminded me very much of my lynch last game, where he simply voted and stayed on someone because nothing better came up. I've expressed my suspicion of Hito today, and I started to have general misgivings about him late yesterday. ABR avoids questions and justifications, but I didn't mind the return to Reck.

But I was probably most suspicious of Serial, Vi and Hito at the end of yesterday, so since Serial and Vi weren't on it, and I didn't think any of the votes looked opportunistic or the like, and I didn't mind as much how people joined, I was less concerned with the second wagon.

VPB jumping off the wagon due to confusion then jumping back on as soon as he self-votes strikes me as odd though. I personally find it very confusing that a scum would self-vote, I don't know why the self-vote would have made it an easier decision.

VPB, how did the self-vote clear up your confusion?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Really interesting points from Sando in regards to SC who had been giving me bad feelings since his disaster yesterday with ABR. I guess I expect town-SC to at some point try and convince me of some ridiculous theory he's come up with and doesn't make any sense to me and I haven't see that at all, he's played a rather humdrum conventional game which doesn't mesh with the town meta I have of him. I don't have the other half of the meta so I don't want to make assumptions but it has bothered me.

I think VPB raises good points about PCE and that's why Hito is a bit lower on my list than some. If I'm being brutally honest I don't have a lot of respect for Rec's play so I just don't seeing bussing when another wagon was wide open as his first instinct.

Unvote

[Head_Honcho]

Votecount:

SerialClergyman(3): Vi, Sando, VP Baltar
hitogoroshi(3): Albert B. Rampage, SerialClergyman, Zorblag

Not Voting(2): hitogoroshi, Debonair Danny DiPietro
With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch.

[VP Baltar]

I think VPB raises good points about PCE and that's why Hito is a bit lower on my list than some. If I'm being brutally honest I don't have a lot of respect for Rec's play so I just don't seeing bussing when another wagon was wide open as his first instinct.

I agree with this, other than I wouldn't say I disrespect his game. Reck's style is to play a very short game though, so I don't see bussing on Day 1 as a tool that he would really use.

I plan to look specifically at some more Reck scum meta sometime today (hopefully) and see if he has ever bussed on Day 1.

[Vi]

1) I wasn't specifically trying to avoid it, but I didn't have much/anything to add. I found Reck slightly scummy, maybe enough to justify a vote, but probably not, and my misgivings about the wagon pushed me away from voting.

And what of the VP Rampage duo?

2) Well I wasn't a keen supporter of the wagon, irrespective of the wagonees, so that was a bad read from me. But my opposition to the wagon was because of the wagoners, yes. If not for my misgivings about that, I might have voted, I might not have, but I wouldn't have raised serious doubts about the wagon.

I guess you can say my lack of vote was Reck-action driven, my opposition was wagoner misgivings driven.

But you said yesterday that you were waiting on hito to finish reading. If the hito/Porkchop slot is scum as you say, wouldn't that be at cross-purposes?
I'm curious as to what gave you a neutral read on xRx considering you were one of the people asking him questions

before

the wagon particularly took off. (In particular, he didn't directly answer your last question )

3) I don't think I ever said I was primed to hate it.

Those aren't your words, but these are.

I thought the last wagon was terrible, I'll look at this latest one today.

...which regardless of the letter of what you said looks like you were ready to disapprove of it.

DDD and Zorblag were still there, and while I didn't find him scummy, Zorblag's play reminded me very much of my lynch last game, where he simply voted and stayed on someone because nothing better came up.

I've expressed my suspicion of Hito today, and I started to have general misgivings about him late yesterday.

ABR avoids questions and justifications, but I didn't mind the return to Reck.

But I was probably most suspicious of Serial, Vi and Hito at the end of yesterday, so since Serial and Vi weren't on it, and I didn't think any of the votes looked opportunistic or the like, and I didn't mind as much how people joined, I was less concerned with the second wagon.

Again, I thought you had general misgivings about the PorkchopExpress slot as early as D1?

---

Go tell VP about that dog with a bone bit, it might be useful for another game.

Dot. Dot. Dot.

This happens regularly to me. ><. Reck wasn't worth saving if I was his buddy, especially not in such a public manner.

Why not?

As it turned out, I misread the results as -scum are piling onto easy wagon- rather than -everyone agrees he's obvscum-

I don't buy it precisely because you started this halfway through the wagon.

---

DDD, who is scum?

[VP Baltar]

VPB, how did the self-vote clear up your confusion?

Because it was obvious that Reckoner tried to self-hammer and fail. I had no questions after that.

Dot. Dot. Dot.

You should know the ongoing he's referencing.



At the risk of having to eat my words, a scum metaing of Reckoner has given some added credence to ABR's read on hitogoroshi for me.

While Reckoner doesn't have a lot of scum games in his wiki (only 4), Newbie 790 and Perfectionist Mafia seem relevant.

In the newbie game Reckoner bussed his partner ric somewhat hard on Day 2. I only did a skim, but it didn't seem like there was a cop investigation or anything that would force him to do that.

Perfectionist Mafia is disturbingly similar to this game if Reck was trying to bus PCE on Day 1. In that game he replaced Day 1 and put two of his three scumbuddies as his top scum reads on his reread. He then proceeded to get on scum-Bloodcovenant's lynch fairly early and hung around without much resistance as his buddy was lynched Day 1.

While I still don't think that ABR "forced" Reckoner to do anything, this meta of him does show some propensity to bus his buddies for no reason whatsoever.

I still think DDD is town, but I could see a hito + SC scum pair remaining.

[Zorblag]

@Albert B. Rampage, on day one there were at least 5 players that I had mason reads, or that I thought were at helpful to the town in some way who I didn't have any interest in lynching that day.

@Vi, hitogoroshi is my strongest scum read but at this point in the game. I guess if you want numbers to go with it I'd put him at around a 2/3 chance of being scum. Unless you want to go with the sort of 100% certainty (which I don't as I've spent enough time being wrong about suspicions to know better) that Albert B. Rampage is using here such numbers are largely meaningless. I typically just give rankings instead.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[hitogoroshi]

Sorry for the random silent day there. I've been ADD-ing like hell the last few days (is that a verb? let's say yes) and having such trouble keeping focus it's almost cripplingly impossible for me to get anything done at all. This post may be scatterbrained but at least it's here.

@hito: Nothing will ever come from a vote that isn't cast. I thought you said you were over this meta.~


Elaborate a bit on your thoughts about these two not getting lynched.

If my ABR vote was 'stale' before there's not exactly a whole lot more new stuff to add that would convince anyone at the moment. As for Sando, the biggest thing I didn't like about him after my ISO-posting was his tip-toeing around Reck and that's the sort of thing that you need to them around to talk about.

I like Sando 928. I still don't like how little he had to do with the Reck wagon and the fact that his vote on Vi is rarely pushed and instead gives me the vibe of 'look guys I am voting for a player no one else is, that means I am an independent figure and not scum!" But for reasons you are about to see I'm glad for him helping me finally pin down SC.

@Vi, Albert B. Rampage is probably town at this point. He continues to narrow his attention in a way that I think fits his town play. I disagree with the individual statements he's making (his hitogoroshi is 100% scum stance is pretty ridiculous, I don't agree that both scum need to have been in on the bus and his interpretation of xRECKONERx being forced to follow his lead on PorkchopExpress doesn't seem to be based on anything I can see in the game are a few examples) but if he was scum I'd expect him to still be throwing more flack out there rather than to be this focused.

As I said, I think his focus of 'both scum bussed Reck' is a clever way for ABR-scum to neatly avoid any comment/analysis of his scumbuddy. (For reference, the people not on the Reck wagon yesterday were Vi, Sando, and SC.) You say you'd expect ABR-scum to throw out more flak but I think 'calling the scum' as two within four players strikes me as a perfect space to play in, (especially because I can easily see him abandoning the idea of 'both scum bussed Reck' when D4 starts without anyone batting an eye.)


Basically I think the most likely scumteam is ABR/SC. I'm not gonna compile a pretty case what with my recent focusing issues (this little fart of a post took me over an hour, and I have another game to post in) but you can all see it pretty well I think. Start with my 806 points, add in what I just said to Zorblag about ABR picking a criterion exonerating his buddy, and sprinke in SC's 'gut scum read' on ABR magically and rapidly turning in to a town read (I especially like his every time I try to get out comment - why would you need to get out from a gut scum read? Oh yeah, because he's your scumbuddy and you need to work with him to mislynch in later days.)

I was a bit hesitant to do this because SC-scum could self-hammer, but then I realized that if he does that will probably get me the leverage to finally get you guys with me on an ABR wagon.

So what the hell -

Vote:SerialClergyman

[L-1!]

[SerialClergyman]

My gues, should I be lynched here, is that another supporter of the hito lynch will probably die tomorrow.

You should kill hito tomorrow, and probably VP after that.

I've been sitting here tryign to work out why you should think I'm town compared to hito (aside from my response to Sando, which addressed a few things directly.) Usually I can point to a wagon or a read that was pretty good but this game not really so much. The best I can say is that looking at my positions it's patently obvious I don't have a plan and do have plenty of doubt.

Interestingly, the very posts hito makes seem to me to betray that he does indeed have that information.

Notice what happened here. Reckoner was at L-1, and then suddenly these two slipped off of the wagon (and let's be honest, THEY were specifically what made the Reck wagon seem less popular and possible today.) They did it by 'gunning' for each other, but now ABR seems to have forgotten SC entirely and SC has been doing his damndest to suck any energy from the ABR wagon while he's sitting on it.

I'm calling it - if ABR flips scum, SC is probably scum with him.

See - it's written as if Reck had already flipped. It also makes no strong stand (we'd need to have ABR flip, and flip a certain alignment, before he makes a solid prediction.) The actual accusation itself isn't revelatory at all - I was openly and honestly discussing my doubts about ABR and my opposition to the Reck wagon.

'm liking VP's lynch list because it's more or less right in line with my own (though I'm also willing to go for SC). I disagree, though, that we should 'stop beating this dead horse.' VP, we seem to be the only ones that notice the horse is dead at all, and I think this is worth some more work.

As I said from the start, it's hard not to like a Reck lynch when confirmed townies love it so, but this resistance to an ABR lynch is something I want to push at now, rather than defer to.

This is the actual way a scum player attempts to derail their partner's lynch, as opposed to the Sando way.

I'm kind of aggravated that while I feel ABR came off greatly for the worse in that exchange everyone else seems inclined to pretend it never happened because his vote is back on Reck. That being said, lynching Reck is a hell of a consolation prize so I'm not as mad as I normally would be.

Vi, I'll probably be with you tomorrow on that Sando lynch (I'm gonna re-read him tonight with his most recent posts in mind). But for now, what the hell:

unvote, vote: Reckoner

And that is L-1 for real this time.

And thisi s the way an actual scum player sneaks in at the end of a wagon to bus their buddy before it's too late.

[Zorblag]

@SerialClergyman, I suppose I've got two questions for you at this point. Why did you leave your mason conclusions as easy to find as you did on day one and not make some attempt to provide other options for scum to follow? Why the change in opinion on Albert B. Rampage between yesterday and today.

It's possible that the first one has an answer that involves my expectations being off, I'll go to the group if that's the case.

I have a guess for the second answer as well; if I'm right the follow up question is when exactly did you decide that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Albert B. Rampage]

Are you a vanilla townie SerialClergyman?

If you are town-aligned, can you make a much more detailed approximation of why you think hito and VPB are scum?