Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[Skill006]

....well, no one has claimed willingness to hammer yet. So we don't know if we'll even get stuck in that situation.
However, its wisest not to hammer just yet, IMO. Whether he has an opinion-changing claim or not, we should still allow him to at least defend himself. If we don't give him the chance to defend himself and change our minds, perhaps, well...that would just be unfair to him because of availability issues (or whatever is making him inactive).

WHat do you suggest the real town player does? Keep quiet and not become a sitting duck for N1 killing, but subsequently allow the lying player to continue sliding by everyone else happily?

The said power role could have the special knowledge of knowing one of the scum. They can look for who their partner might be, and maybe help us in the end. Plus, scum wouldn't know their role, so they could still be useful at night. The lying player could eventually be ratted out by the real power role.

Or do you suggest the town player role claims and outs themselves right off the bat so we don't ever get to use that PR?

Eh, I agree, not a good idea.

If we let him role claim, we can gain info. Anyway, its only fair to let him do so. Even if he lies about having a power role, it wouldn't be the end of us, and he prob. wouldn't get away w/ it for too long. If he claims a power role, we can still consider him scum, and he wouldn't have gotten away with anything.

I dunno. Despite everything you say, I feel we should let him claim.

[RayFrost]

skill's posting is very restricted in what it covers.

GIVE A STANCE ON WHAT IS GOING ON ALREADY!

Um, deflecting little much?
Why do you want to get all the attention on Apathy.
Why don't you respond to skill discrediting your posts.

How is this deflecting?

Skill's not given a stance on current events. By purely talking about what happened in the past while the town brawls out the present, she can avoid giving a stance and then come in on the popular side without much notice.

I didn't see skill discrediting me. If she has, I'd like to know where.

[Kison]

Day One: Vote Count

Apathy (

4

) : PranaDevil, Phaen, RayFrost, fuzzylightning
jmurph3 (

1

) : PaltryExcuse
RayFrost (

1

) : Apathy
fuzzylightning (

1

) : jammer

Not Voting (

2

) : Skill006, jmurph3

With

9

alive, it will take

5

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

February 24th, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

[Phaen]

not a contradiction, phaen.

I said I was waiting on a vc.

I understand that. But look at the order of events.
There was a VC between your posts #381 and #419
So 'waiting on a vc' doesn't really solve the contradiction in #419

[RayFrost]

prana's unofficial vc doesn't count, bub.

[Phaen]

I wasn't talking about that one.

[RayFrost]

kison's vc was before my post.

[RayFrost]

so I didn't see it.

[Phaen]

Fair enough.

I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it or anything. Things like that just stick out at me.

[jmurph3]

Firstly, to contribute to the mental quagmire that is plaguing us re: Apathy:

Jammer said:

In any case we should have a second lynch ready.

My question is, at this point,

if

Apathy comes back, and

if

he claims a PR of any variety, and

if

we believe him, what do we do then? Is it better to have some form of suspicion lined up, whether you want to call it a "lynch" or whatnot, or is it better at this point to risk having a no-kill day? I'm not normally in favor of no-kill days, just because town gets no information out of it, so I'm just wondering, at this point in the game, going on what we have, which is the better option?

I think everyone is in favor of waiting for Apathy to come back and claim. Another question, though: if he does not come back and claim before the day is up (which does give us a week in real time, so let's freaking hope he does), should we still lynch him, knowing that there is a possibility that he could have a PR?

This, however:

Regarding the Apathy claim: The way I see it, he has been very scummy in my opinion to this point in the game, and if he does happen to claim a power role, we have to evaluate a) how he has played to this point (scummy), b) will he get better on subsequent days (personally, doubt it) c) are we better off as a town with or without Apathy as a PR. My opinion on C is, I think we are better off without him regardless, because I haven't seen anything from him at all. The only positive from letting him live as a PR is that it makes scum "waste" a kill on eliminating PR-Apathy.

seems like terrible logic to me. Yes, we need to evaluate, if he for whatever reason claims, and hoping that no one counterclaims (because I agree that power roles coming out on D1 usually spell disaster for the town), but thinking we should just automatically kill him off because he's a bad player seems like the worst reasoning to me, and, actually a bit scummy.

Let's remember that this a newbie game, and that most of us are new. Killing off anyone who has come back and claimed

just because they are "useless"

really just seems like a terrible idea. I think it was Ray who once likened me to an old TV starting up, that may take awhile to get better. If we lynch based purely on them being a bad player in spite of them claiming a PR, we could be doing ourselves as town much more harm than we ever could by keeping a "useless" player around.

Also, to contribute to the "what did jmurph mean" discussion that has been taking place in my absence ...

(read multiple posts above that I, for once, will not quote here for brevity's sake)

Oy. Firstly, I think Skill is mostly right in her interpretation of what I said. Jammer, I don't think it's contradictory at all to think what I thought at the time. I was suspicious of Ray, very suspicious of Ray, wherein I wanted to lynch him. redbox was also suspicious of Ray, which was fine. Then redbox brought up a point that came off as scummy. Redbox's point

did not

refute any other evidence against Ray. Therefore, I could think that both of them are scummy when they are suspicious of each other.

Skill is absolutely right in saying that the suspicions were mutually exclusive of each other. However, I don't think Skill can say that if Ray wasn't in the game, i would've targeted redbox, since it was only based off of redbox's targeting of Ray that I became suspicious of redbox.

[PranaDevil]

Okay... so people are saying "If he returns and claims a PR we hold off on lynching him and look elsewhere".

We have a week in real time to decide elsewhere... but obviously that person should be given the chance to claim too, now, how far down the line do we go just accepting that someone's word is true?

All VT's will announce as VT's, all PR will claim PR's, the scum will lie.

What I am pointing out is that by deliberately holding off on a lynch because someone claims a PR is outright telling scum "claim a PR and I wont lynch you", isn't that somewhat... bad play?

Plus, what do we do if the second person says "I'm just a VT", we lynch them because they... were being honest and the scum slides through? I'm not liking it at all. Apparently pro-town players are telling scum to lie, we wont lynch them, and we don't even want actual town roles to out them (if they even could do).

And the reason is... we can always lynch later... ooookay. Nobody see the flaw in that plan? We "can" lynch later, but we will keep putting it off because we don't want to risk lynching a PR, so we'll go after everyone else first.

I will repeat what I have said before... if you believe that someone is scummy enough to be lynched now, why does a claim change that? We believe the person is scum, scum will lie, no scum will be honest and say "yeah, I'm scum". In fact...

In fact, let me make this simple:

What WOULD make you agree to lynch after a claim? That's to everyone, whether you're for lynching regardless, or considering holding back from a PR claim.

[Apathy]

The only reason Im not making a bigger post is because this town is terrible. One of the 3 of Ray/Prana/Phaen is scum, leaning toward Prana or Ray. You're being led around by the nose, and just because you make 'points' in your posts does not mean any of those points are good, Prana.


You constantly contradict yourself. You have gone back on your own logic more times than I care to quote. I can say its more than a handful for sure.

I am l-1, and you'll see how bad of a choice it was to lynch me once it happens (im sure someone will hammer since Im not making big posts anymore)


I wont be that mad about it though, I've read 20 pages of sheer crap from a bunch of really bad townies. Cant say Im surprised since it is a noob game, but come on. Pull your head out of your ass.


Ray has been consistently scummy this whole game. Put me to l-1 to avoid being the hammer, and yet is still contradicting himself. Good luck following him the rest of the game.


btw Im vanilla townie. Go ahead, drop the hammer (I dare you)

[Apathy]

Oh, that and I am very very busy with work.


I made a decent case that was never really followed up on by anyone. Ray took prana by the ears and got him all upset to distract the rest of the town long enough to deflect the attention on to the next target.


I would love to continue to make decent posts using logic, but it doesnt seems to pierce half of the thick skulls here, so why bother?



Seems to be getting someone all upset and making them e-rage for a couple pages is enough of a 'defense' to get someone else lynched. Maybe I should try that, what do you think ray?

[PranaDevil]

So you say you "feel I am town" earlier, now you say I am one of the 3 who "is" scum? uhuh.

Going back on my logic?

No, I realized I had made a mistake in my logic (Which I might add, I have already stated is because I saw I wasn't looking at everyone equally, and had been shown to make some serious mistakes in a previous game, hence paying more attention, so it's not "going back on my own logic" but "rethinking the logic I had previously used". There's a severe difference.)

As for your decent case, I'd like to see one, thus far you've done no such thing, except what you accuse Ray of, and shift focus on everyone else, by erm... flipping out because you're about to be lynched, and actively insulting everyone playing the game. Yeah... way to go. (Especially considering Phaen, PE, Ray, fuzzy, and jammer aren't "noobs" and 3 of them are already voting you... so the noob card fails in a miserable manner).

[Phaen]

confirm vote:

Apathy

[Apathy]

So, you point out what I did (change my opinion) as though its relevant, then go on to defend yourself doing the exact same thing?


This is the reason why I said you are dumb. Your logic is flawed, and you are so wrapped up in your OWN points that you have no care or willingness to look beyond it, until someone makes you upset apparently which Ray did a great job of btw.


The 'noob card' wasnt a 'card' I was 'playing'

I was making a blanket statement because of the fact that fuzzy has terrible logic and contradicts himself in huge posts, you do the same, jammer I have no harsh words for he seems pretty smart, Ray is blatantly playing you for a sucker by getting you all raged and then shifting the focus, Phaen is smart and playing logically, and PE has barely contributed compared to you, ray, phaen, jammer, and fuzzy. The town, as a whole, is playing like noobs with a stupid pack mentality and you're leading the idiotic charge.


So far you personally have served to do nothing but confuse the town on EVERY ISSUE. You took up the helm of ray's lynch, even putting him to l-1, then ray accused redbox of something minor and stupid, and you took on that charge, then on to fuzzy, after jmurph, and now me. Especially considering Im probably missing a few, this is just BAD PLAY. You havent raised any real contributions of your own, you just keep taking other people's arguments (however small and bad ex. ray's attack on redbox) and overly elaborating to the point of it just being ridiculous. You tried to force the town to lynch ray.

YOU WERE CALLING FOR SOMEONE TO COME IN AND FINISH HIM OFF SEVERAL TIMES. Now all of the sudden Ray has no more guilt and Im the one to go?


Seriously?





You're about to lynch a vanilla because you cant pull back on your blind reigns and actually THINK about things before you make 10 irrational posts.

Ray noticed this, jumped all over you when you were attacking him, primed you up and let you go wild. For 4 pages straight. You basically distracted the whole town, Ray basically picked you to pieces (which isnt that hard tbh) and now he's made himself look better in the process JUST ENOUGH to shift the blame around town and get himself a little breathing room.


I havent gotten good reads on a lot of people, I will admit that, but Ray's style has been pathetically anti-town all game and you dont even care or notice because you're too busy blindly attacking whoever has a finger pointed at them. Its bad play. Plain and simple.



Again, if you are voting me off, you are being lead into a mislynch on a vanilla. You will see this as soon as I die. The real culprit would want to distract as much attention away from themselves, and just slightly contribute to a lynch enough to make it happen but not so much as to seem overzealous.

So far, Ray has tossed in little bits and pieces against me after the bandwagon gained steam, held off his vote in a contradicting manor, placed his vote slightly later to put me at l-1 and so far has made the smallest and worst case against me.

Hes got me right where he wants me to push a mislynch, keep himself alive, still be able to go back later on and just say he was going with the crowd. After all of his contradictions, useless finger pointing, useless posts, and overzealous defensiveness.


...and the big problem is Prana, even if you are town you have put 3 people to within 1 or 2 votes of a lynch, vocally supporting ending the day phase as soon as possible while filling your posts with contradictions and fluff, effectively confusing the town while attempting to lead bogus charges against almost 5 people now.

[Apathy]

If Apathy (or whoever) claimed VT, then... why should that stop the lynch?

You had the same sentiments about ray early on, and jmurph as well when you were attacking her.

This has been your feeling constantly. "Fuck it, even if they are town lynch em anyways." is basically what you are saying here.


Earlier you said

...and we keep someone who is blatantly scum around

when talking about me and the 50/50 lynch chances. First of all, you and no one else has pointed to anything I've done thats "blatantly scum"my. The most thats been lifted against me is pointing out a few inconsistencies and a quick bandwagon based on those. Anything else is a fabrication.

So again, you have this huge illusion of some grand case worthy of lynching me on, and yet in reality there is very, very little and you have served to only blow it out of proportion and hype a lynch based on nothing




Just like you did to jmurph
redbox
and rayfrost.

[PaltryExcuse]

Just curious:
@RayFrost: Other than Apathy, who do you suspect (and why)?

[PranaDevil]

So... your entire argument is false and based on the fact that after Ray I started looking elsewhere?

Let's go over your "argument" a little bit at a time.

"YOU WERE CALLING FOR SOMEONE TO COME IN AND FINISH HIM OFF SEVERAL TIMES. Now all of the sudden Ray has no more guilt and Im the one to go?"

I'll be the one to say "seriously?" here, thanks very much, are you really trying to turn the tables to such an extent that you hope people ignore the fact that I realized I was being overzealous on Ray and pushing for a lynch wrongly, and admitted that fact and have since reigned myself in to looking everywhere.

"You're about to lynch a vanilla because you cant pull back on your blind reigns and actually THINK about things before you make 10 irrational posts."

Please pay attention and realize I have evaluated everyone, the "wont pull in the reigns" stuff is likely talking about me discussing the "claim" rubbish, but I wouldn't care if it was you being lynched or me being lynched on that one, I still feel a claim is absolutely a ridiculous move in every part, and serves to help scum 100% more than it could ever help town, as we'd still be at the "do we take their word on it?" stage... which is stupid as scum will lie obviously, basing a lynch on a claim is ridiculous in every form.

"...and the big problem is Prana, even if you are town you have put 3 people to within 1 or 2 votes of a lynch, vocally supporting ending the day phase as soon as possible while filling your posts with contradictions and fluff, effectively confusing the town while attempting to lead bogus charges against almost 5 people now. "

Where's my "contradictions", outside of accepting that I was wrong, and admitting it with things like the Ray lynch etc. I see none. As for putting people to within 1 or 2 votes of a lynch, lesse... jmurph was a pressure vote and I said as much (but you do bring up the RVS stage a lot in your arguments Apathy, as opposed to the actual meat of this thing), Ray I was pushing wrongly, and erm... you, who has been acting scummy.

As for this:

"Just like you did to jmurph
redbox
and rayfrost. "

Yeah, because looking over flaws in play isn't the basis of the game? Perhaps we should just say something once, never respond and just vote based on nothing at all? Isn't the entire point to look at things, search for inconsistancies, see who appears to be lurking, attacking utterly ridiculous points that are nonexistant (sort of like your points so far), and try and lynch scum?

It actually appears that you are saying the "good" play is to concentrate on a single person solely, and not look at various people, because looking at everyone is somehow scummy in your eyes?

What's more, you're also stating that the IC and SE's aren't able to think for themselves if I'm apparently leading the charge.

And as for pointing out "a few inconsistancies" that's because the "few" were the entirety of your posts, you've barely joined in the game, hanging back, throwing accusations at Ray, and when the lynch on him fell through and people looked at you, you began flipping out and getting upset and going for the whole AtE rubbish that you're doing now.

[Apathy]

Do me a favor, dont hammer yet. Im working on that big post I promised as we speak.

[PranaDevil]

Okay, I'll give you chance to post it just in case someone gets hammer happy.

unvote

[Apathy]

Im going for a much better and more precise post (taking a half hour out of work for this, y.w) to help alleviate some of your suspicions.

So... that all being said, I don't think anyone else should remove their vote from Ray. I'll be returning with my vote end of Sunday/early Monday, although if another vote turns up on him, I shall add my vote back on and get the scum lynched.

and yes, if it gets to L-1 for Ray, I will drop the hammer.

I do feel that lots of discussion doesn't help us though

Just a few sentiments of yours from earlier.

In fact I'd go so far as to say it's possible that scum knew Ray had put his foot in his mouth by accident, and saw town attacking town, and just tried piling on the pressure by adding not just a vote, but by throwing a baiting line in there to get him riled up, knowing full well that I wouldn't notice it so much, and hoping others missed it too.

Oh strange, didnt I mention someting like this is happening JUST NOW? Wierd that you havent noticed it this time....

2 posts of yours later:

Overall
So, that makes me think that the potential scum would be in the region of:
jmurph3
redbox

Quick shift.

From your most recent post:
a. Can you show me where you admitted that you were wrong about Ray? Maybe I missed it.
b. IMO instead of 'evaluating everyone' like you say, you seem to be overzealously attacking someone despite what they say/do even in their own defense. Its not until they begin to attack you that you rethink your position. You are being extremely aggressive and its only serving to help the chaotic situation, which helps SCUM and NOT THE TOWN.
c. You took your next point to a level that was ridiculous. In no way did I imply any of what you said. I was attacking you because I felt your overzealous aggression was bad play, and I was citing the players that you directed it at. Posting a lot is great, and elaborating on good tells is also great (albeit Im not always pro at it), but to take it to the level I felt you did seemed too far to me.
d. Where did I even insinuate that "looking at everyone is somehow scummy"?
e. I was stating that your aggressiveness is leading the charge, sometimes with and sometimes without them. This accusation does not speak to their ability to think for themselves.



Ok, let me move on:



@Phaen - I'll take your advice and answer your questions with bolding from your post.

a. Do you think I was implying Ray was scum when I mentioned play-acting? If not, what was the purpose of including it as a question?

No. I wanted you to clarify your stance. Saying someone is play-acting doesnt do a whole lot to describe their guilt/innocence IMO.

b. Which defense/point/posts did you want me to respond to in the 5th question for me?

Ok. 1.

Bandwagons are good, not bad, so yeah... ummm... either or makes it not a bad thing, soooo... :/

Reminder: You just posted several times harping on Prana for his bandwagon vote, but when you do it, its somehow not a bad thing? Hmm..

2.

You didn't actually answer the question you quoted, so yeah. Ummm... actually do so next time or don't freakin' quote it.

Okay, you’ve got me. Here is my answer:
Posting a lot doesn’t necessarily increase nor decrease your chances of not being caught as a scumbag. It’s the substance that matters. Like I said already, if you were posting many things of substance that even seemed to be drawing out logical conclusions, I would be less inclined to question your erratic behavior, but so far we haven’t really pulled MUCH from your posts, which leads me to believe that your style of posting a lot and shifting blame around is to create an atmosphere of chaos and confusion, thus allowing you to sway opinions more effectively while also keeping the spotlight as far away from you and your partner as possible. This is a common tactic of any good scum (at least the ones I’ve seen).

#2 I feel is the most important point I raised, and I feel still to this day has not been countered or defended.

c. What did I say that makes you think I am 'venomous'?

The way that you were attacking my logic felt more like a defense of Ray, especially with how you were calling my posts 'terribad' and saying I was using 'horrendous logic'. Now, not one to be a hypocrit, I am very venomous at times, especially against bad logic. I was only mentioning this because mine was the only quote you felt inclined to weight such harsh words against.

d. Who do you think is scummy besides Ray?

At this point, Prana (see above), PE, fuzzy, and possibly jmurph

e. Can you elaborate on fuzzy's contradictions?

I retract this statement. I was taking another person's post (ray?) out of context, and after re-reading all of fuzzy's posts, it makes a lot more sense to me now.


You defended Prana as

genuinely scumhunting the entire game. He has been paying attention and trying to improve his play. I get a pro-town read.

Does his willingess to jump around and push lynches despite a good read (which you yourself noticed already) not catch your attention? Keep in mind that if he is scum, coaching him on better town play is only going to unsure that he acts the part better.
Also, citing my response to your question 'b' above, looking back over Ray's posts, do you see anything that he has done

for the scumhunt?

If so, what?



@fuzzy - At first you said RF was giving you scum vibes, then a few of your posts later you said he gives you a "strong town" read. Can you elaborate on what changed your mind so effectively?



Forgive me, its 4 pm at work and I have to handle the front desk until close. I will be continuing my post elaborating on everyone tomorrow during the day. Please, I can only say dont rush to a conclusion that I am scum, because I am not, and I also am more able to contribute now that my real life activities have slowed. If you give me a few more days to elaborate, I will gladly prove my willingness to scumhunt for the town, if after Monday night I havent assuaded your suspicions, then by all means, lynch me.

[fuzzylightning]

@Apathy: The only reason I said RF looked suspicious was because of his early vote-hopping. Outside of that, he seemed very much like a pro-town player. He posts often and has tried to move the game along as best he could. Therefore, the pros far outweigh the cons in my mind, considering if you look hard enough, everyone makes mistakes that could be construed as scum tells.

For future reference, if you are going to use someone else's posts in yours, please bold it or use quote tags, otherwise it makes it almost impossible to decipher where your thoughts start and the other person's end.

[PranaDevil]

First of all, I wouldn't say this push is the same as the Ray one, I'm not as gung ho as I was earlier (like I've repeatedly pointed out, and you're repeatedly ignoring in favour of pointing out things I said "before" I realized I was making a mistake... surprising that you would conveniently ignore blatant points).

Second, no not a quick shift, I was pushing for Ray, made a mistake, backed off, looked at things, then realized it was likely town vs town, nor town vs scum, and then realized it's possible scum was trying to slide by without being noticed, at that time I hadn't paid that much attention to your posts Apathy, and so only began noticing it when I began searching through the posts more.

Also, I have been looking at everyone, just for the past few days there's been absolutely nothing going on, so there's not been a huge amount to look at. Just because I'm noticing you as acting most scummy (as are others I add) doesn't mean I'm not looking at others.

You pointed out I was putting pressure on various people, (Ray, fuzzy, jmurph, yourself) and stating that as though it's scummy, and also very falsely claiming I've not done anything of my own, when if you look through the thread, I've brought up some points of my own. Just because I don't use "only" my points and none of anyone elses isn't scummy, in fact, using others points "and" your own is much better than following people around, or not paying attention to others at all.

As for the aggressiveness, I wasn't being aggressive in your direction, I was arguing against the roleclaim rubbish, which doesn't benefit the town, that's a gameplay issue and like I say, would be no different no matter if I agreed with the lynch or not. Asking for a roleclaim is just leading right into problems for town. Thus the one and only time I was actively being "aggressive" in any type of charge... was against Ray, which was bad play, which I've admitted, and which I've since backed down from.

[jammer]

... a letter count? How did you do that? (More importantly, how am I

not

on there? XD)

I googled char counter, and in the first link I could count them. B)
I only picked the reletively less active people. Be happy you're not one of them.

jammer, you're either misinterpreting what jmurph said, or misrepresenting it (ahh, those 2 words look too much alike XD)

Idd, I'm assuming, what you say is a possible explanation.
I didn't mean to state what I said as a fact merely trying to get out why I thought it was suspicious.
Note I'm not 100% sure my reasoning is the right one. If it was, it is with the 'lieing'(it would mean she lied heavily about what she meant) from her. Enough to place a vote on her.
The conclusions I get are majorly set on the assumption jmurph is lining up lynches.

But what if he claims PR role X, and we "do" have a town PR role X?

WHat do you suggest the real town player does? Keep quiet and not become a sitting duck for N1 killing, but subsequently allow the lying player to continue sliding by everyone else happily?

He should keep quiet.

Or what if nobody ever counter claims because we don't even have said role.

It's not that hard for scum to claim "Bah, roleblocked" if they've claimed cop, or nearer lylo to announce their partner is scum, have that person lynched, and are then safe as far as everyone is concerned because they successfully decieved us and they bussed their own partner.

and yeah, it's possible opinions can change, but that could be the same of anyone who got lynched, unfortunately we still have to make decisions, and I still fail to see why a claim helps anybody except scum.[/quote]
You completely set a PR claimer is scum. If town a PR walking around is not bad.
I'm not going to ignore scummy players, a PR-claim D1 to avoid a lynch and still living is reason enough to keep suspicion.

@Jammer: I have been stating my views when they come up. I have stated who I am suspicious of and why I am suspicious of them, so tell me how that is fence sitting? I also never stated that I have been the most "active" player in the game. Lastly, many characters does not an "active" player make. I admit that I have my faults when it comes to play, could I be more "active" sure, but this is the way I play.

Fence sitting, let see, for example you said "I agree" with the points on jmurph pretty much. You seem(ed) pretty fine with lynching jmurph but don't bring anything new in the case against her. I recall you stating a few times something that's scummy after others already said that at-least once. Like you pointed out that wagoning that quickly isn't good(without giving any opinion of how you think about the specific wagoners, and you said it after it was loudly said already and the voters themselves agreed with that stance and did it for some reason)
And your last analysis included more general info, then actual stances.

The activity bit, I put the char-counter forward because you said I've posted little. Nevertheless you also haven't posted that much.

You did make a clear stand at the last alinea of your post. With that I agree with jmurph and find it terrible logic.

skill's posting is very restricted in what it covers.

GIVE A STANCE ON WHAT IS GOING ON ALREADY!

Um, deflecting little much?
Why do you want to get all the attention on Apathy.
Why don't you respond to skill discrediting your posts.

How is this deflecting?

*shrug* Now I've got to rethink what I was thinking there.
Skill had part of the post about you blowing up a case about jmurph.
In fact, I looked a little back. And noticed you overblow cases(make them look stronger then they are) pretty much anytime.
i.e. that might have made my mind think it was about you blowing up cases, instead of defending jmurphs stand.

I'll take a reread in the weekend and might be back at ya with this myself.


@jmurph, I'll take the lynch over NL. If I get someone really close to a lynch, I doubt a PR-claim is going to sway my mind. Better to get it lynched then a NL, losing a lynch and still having the possible scum.