926 A Game of Thrones Mafia - Over.

[xvart]

Hello everyone. Happy hunting!

re: name claiming. I'm not sure what we will get from it other than house alliances which in and of itself is most likely not going to be telling of much other than, well... house alliances. I don't imagine that the setup would directly follow the storyline, so just because we find Cersei Lannister isn't necessarily going to out the killer(s).

I find it very difficult to even consider going for a name claim based on supposed theories with no explanation, because it could just as easily provide whatever you think for scum. I also think that name claiming might have some drastic potential to out power roles based on characters. With flavor considered, I would imagine whoever is Jamie Lannister (if the character is in this game) would have some sort of vigilante or killing mechanism since he is afterall the most well-known and decorated Knight in the Kingsguard. Or if we have a Cersei Lannister might be more indicative of a double voter or some sort of vote manipulation since she is a political mastermind in the books. Or someone on the Wall might be a neutral survivor because of the flavor of having no allegiance to king or property.

If we all name called I imagine scum would probably just start killing all the house leaders or most well known characters. Is it possible that the big names are vanilla townies? Possibly; but I don't think the risk is worth the supposed reward of whittling away at your theories.

To add to that, the sheer fact that you propose this idea, softly support it and say you don't care if it doesn't go through, but would like to see it go through anyway makes me very suspicious of your intentions. Fence sitting on your own proposal is quite strange (suspicious) to me.

Vote: Kinetic

xvart.

[xvart]

You're cute.

Thanks.

Read my meta, k thx bai.

What exactly would I be looking for in your "meta"? A pattern of fence-sitting on your own game direction suggestions?

xvart.

[xvart]

Here, necessary reading for you guys.

Wheel of Time (The game I modded)

Freaktown,the main reason I won the scummy attached to my name. If you read any full game by me, read this one.

Tar game. If you think Tar is a "bad mod" you don't know anything.

Breaking a game doesn't require a mistake on the part of the mod. Most of the time it is something they merely overlooked or didn't realize was important. Most of the time it isn't important until you look at it from another direction.

I have a few other games that you could look up that are semi-important to understanding my meta, but those are the big ones. Both Babylon and Freaktown were horribly complex games that I figured out flaws in. I could tell you what they were but it would be better if you read them on your own to find them out so you aren't biased by my interpretation.

You still haven't explained what I benefit I will get from reading your "meta." So what exactly am I supposed to get from "meta-ing" you? The fact that you are an awesome mod; or that you've played some large games with complicated mechanics and roles; or that you know how not to break a game; or perhaps that you have often mind blind assertions and people have followed along with you; or what? And what does thinking Tar is a bad mod have to do with anything? Who suggested that?

You told me to look into your meta after I expressed my suspicions of your intentions here:

To add to that, the sheer fact that you propose this idea, softly support it and say you don't care if it doesn't go through, but would like to see it go through anyway makes me very suspicious of your intentions. Fence sitting on your own proposal is quite strange (suspicious) to me.

Unless I am totally misunderstanding your point about reading your "meta" I don't see how your links with the descriptions of each you provided goes to the original reason why you wanted me to read your other games. Now tell me exactly how reading your meta will establish more credibility to you softly supporting your own suggestion. As I asked before, in your other games, do you do this frequently with much reward?

I have some information, and I have a couple theories (that no, I will not divulge) that may help figure some things out about the game.

I will never go along on blind trust, especially on page two.

Right now the objections I'm seeing are mostly just those of ignorance and the fact that players are immediately labeling it as scummy and even voting without attempting to see if they are in err is very telling for other reasons.

It is scummy to suggest something that for all practical purposes would more than likely out power roles (or more powerful roles, as you suggest) on blind trust. If you want me to agree to a name claim you better offer something a little better than "I have some theories rolling around in my head, but I won't tell you about them."

But that's a nice way to turn the tables on those of us suspicious of you by making us look like we aren't thinking twice or second guessing ourselves on page two.

Most likely you are almost all power roles of some sort, that is why so many of you are so rabidly against any name claim. You think it will out you or such. That isn't likely to happen because of the setting many names lend themselves to MANY different roles.

For instances: Take someone who is almost certainly not in the game like Ned Stark.

Some of the roles he could possibly fill include:
Bodyguard
Vigilante (or Justicar)
Double Voter
Cop (Investigator)
Tracker
Watcher
etc etc etc.

Many of the characters are so dynamic that stating their names has very little to do with what they could do.

The point is if we all name claim who do you think is more likely to have a more powerful (or useful) role? Benjen Stark or Syrio Forel? Khal Drago or Hodor? In each of those instances, not knowing any role related information, who would you rather lose?

The point is not that we will be able to tell who has a power role and who might be vanilla, but who might have a more powerful role than someone else.

xvart.

[xvart]

But that said, xvart? Could you share your thoughts on players other than Kinetic?

Sure thing. I would hate to "parrot" others since that might make me more scummy in Kinetic's eyes, but I guess I'll have to learn to live with that disappointment. I am not satisfied with TheButtonmen's contributions thus far. The unvote with no explanation or anything else to say is especially disconcerting considering there is enough other things going on to comment on.

I'm also not really following the Mina/Raivann thing that was going on on page two and the whole double fencesitting...

Both Babylon and Freaktown were horribly complex games that I figured out flaws in. I could tell you what they were but it would be better if you read them on your own to find them out so you aren't biased by my interpretation.

~

fix'd- Mod

So let me get this straight. After I voted for you you gave a simple three sentence response complimenting me, liking my avatar, and telling me to meta you. I am supposed to believe that I was to read through your games to discover that you were able to find flaws in well designed games? That is very odd to me, considering my criticism of your idea. Then you list several games (one of which you modded) and only two of them were games that you found flaws in? If your goal was to prove that well designed games can have flaws (as your simple quote yourself post to answer my question suggests), what was the purpose of the other links?

Furthermore, you still hold on to the value of a name claim and even said you haven't heard anything to suggest it is a bad idea. What do you have to say about the vocal opinions suggesting that more prominent characters might have more powerful roles? Is that not a concern for you? If so, why is that?

The point is if we all name claim who do you think is more likely to have a more powerful (or useful) role? Benjen Stark or Syrio Forel? Khal Drago or Hodor?

In each of those instances, not knowing any role related information, who would you rather lose?

I'd like an answer to the bolded question, if only to get your opinion on my questions above.

For everyone

- is there anyone here who has not read

A Game of Thrones

?

xvart.

[xvart]

Um... okay then. First, I just want to point out that Kinetic still has not addressed the issue of whether or not he believes prominent characters would have more powerful roles; which I think is a perfectly reasonable conclusion. Care to answer the direct question I asked you, Kinetic?

Let's all slow down a little on the Yay/Nay-ing here. Let us pretend for a second that less prominent characters might have more powerful roles. We still have no way to confirm or deny this at this juncture; but we might tomorrow after a couple people are dead when we see their names and roles. So I think it would be good to wait at least until tomorrow before continuing with any name claim discussion (other than Kinetic addressing the things he seems so adamant to ignore). If tomorrow Jamie Lannister turns up dead with a Vanilla Role I will reconsider my stance on the name claim. Once we name claim we can't ever put it back in the box, so waiting a day is the best move.

Nay

to name claiming.

In the meantime, I think Kinetic is the best lynch candidate at the moment since he is obviously selectively reading the thread to his agenda or to make others look scummy and continuing discussion that is not advancing the scumhunting one bit.

xvart.

[xvart]

I answered that question, even if Kinetic didn't. I claimed to have a very prominent character and a Vanilla Role. Thus I don't think that the names will lead us towards PRs.

And I should just take your word for it? How am I supposed to know what "prominent" means?

You've already helped scum enough claiming you're not a PR.

This is true. Why would you (Seacore) come out on D1 and say you are vanilla townie? Do you want the scum to have a better shot of hitting a PR?

I'm not voting because I haven't started scum hunting yet.

We've been playing a week and you haven't started scum hunting yet? Well get to it. We've barely gotten anywhere in the last week and you are working towards getting a vote together for name claiming? At this point, even if we name claim we won't be able to get together on a vote, which I suspect is another reason this whole debate is still raging on. Perhaps you should start scum hunting by looking in the mirror.

FoS: Seacore

I would jump on a Seacore wagon in a heartbeat, but until Kinetic comes back and answers some of things he has overlooked I'm leaving my vote where it is.

xvart.

[xvart]

My bad. I had actually made a post yesterday but the internet went down and it was lost in the tubes.

And your post yesterday said what? Anything other than the quasi fun established by name claiming?

xvart.

[xvart]

No. But this is what frustrates me about strategy, claim, etc. discussions is that it leads to those who continually whine that it's not scum hunting. It'd be a fair charge, but in my experience it never, ever actually manages to up the level of scum hunting. Rather, it merely makes the game seem more like a slog which tends to reduce the actual activity of the game.

The tactic, if you are honestly frustrated by the lack of scum hunting, is to make a concerted effort to do so yourself

without

mentioning your frustration. People will tend to follow and respond to what you're doing. Just saying, "scum hunt more please" accomplishes little.

First: I didn't accuse you of not scum hunting. You made a point of how you wrote a post yesterday and how it got deleted, and then the only other thing you said was agreeing to the name claim. I figured if it was worth saying you had a post and it got deleted there was probably a little more than one sentence.

So is your charge against Kinetic and Sea anything more than they're pushing a name claim? are you sure that this is actually scummy in any way?

Yes, my suspicion of Kinetic has nothing to do with the act of proposing the name claim. I think mentioning that is fine. My suspicion and vote is for his behavior surrounding the suggestion and the responses provided. Kinetic is fencesitting his own idea, selectively reading the thread and ignoring direct questions to him. He has also gotten much quieter since the pressure has been put on him.

I can see how the two might get easily confused since I am strongly against the name claim at this time but that proposition is irrelevant to the name claim; so I apologize for not making the delineation more clear.

My suspicion of Seacore also has nothing to do with his approval of the name claim. It is because he has claimed, unprompted, that he is VT on page 2 and his refusal to discuss game mechanics

and

scum hunt at the same time. And when I say scumhunt I mean expressing concerns or suspicions since it is early in the game.

I am very concerned that this whole name claim thing is still going through and it is being substantiated by an unverifiable claim of a "prominent character who is allegedly VT." It just seems that there is this house of cards being built with as little information as possible and if one card is wrong, the whole thing topples. Let me reiterate that the name claim might be useful, but I only think we will know that starting D2 when we have some deaths and roles to verify. With that said, I now think the best move is to lynch Seacore and we will definitely be able to verify his claim (if he happens to flip town).

Unvote: Kinetic
Vote: Seacore

xvart.

[xvart]

I am leaving for vacation and will have limited access until Monday. I will likely log on at least once a day to fulfill my name claim obligation and hopefully contribute some as well.

V/LA: March 1

xvart.

[xvart]

Coldhands.

Miserable at Best: name claim time.

xvart.

[xvart]

I would vote for a lurker policy lynch at this point, given the time constraint. I will be back home tomorrow night and back to normal activity which will give me time to look over everything prior to the deadline.

I'm curious as to if Kinetic has anything else to contribute or theorycraft now that we have name claimed (obviously after Inquisition claims).

xvart.

[xvart]

I still feel that Seacore is a strong lynch candidate. His posts have all seemed "eager helpful" in facilitating the name claim and also facilitating the lynch of a lurker. Also lynching him will either credit or discredit (to a degree) Kinetic's theory of location and placement of characters at the time of the story.

re: location and storyline - I have some reservations about the location idea simply because it would seem to follow the story too closely, and then we would be looking for those actually behind the murder in the book, which I find difficult to swallow. Of course, if the scum have fake claims then that is irrelevant anyway.

I think that Seacore is the best lynch today, but to avoid a no lynch I would vote for either TheButtonmen or more reluctantly Heliograph.

xvart.

[xvart]

I find Seacore's recent move intriguing. When I first saw Helio's "no lynch" vote my first reaction was that of scum, since a no lynch day one is an insane idea. I was considering switching my fallback vote order to Helio then Button instead of the other way around. The fact that Seacore switched his vote off of Helio makes me think that the lynch was becoming too obvious and when/if Helio would flip town upon his lynch Seacore would be the prime candidate. The VI comment makes it so convenient for a switch.

Also, I wasn't trying to setup your lynch based on theme. I think it is pretty clear that I find you scummy outside of your character alliance (both thematically and famially) but we would also get the added bonus of seeing how Kinetic's theory works.

xvart.

[xvart]

Also, I object to the idea that I'd be the prime candidate if Heilo flipped town.

Who is the prime candidate if Helio flips town? You've been all over him since page 4. You have essentially been the one orchestrating his lynch.

Yeah I've been pushing a Heilo lynch, because I felt it was the best we could do on short notice when people like you, xvart, go on V/LA.

lol? OMGUS without the vote? Now you are trying to make me look scummy and blame the last minute voting on me? How did I slow the game down during my V/LA? Basically the whole time I was V/LA was the name claiming, so I suppose you want me to apologize for not asking people to claim faster during that time? Not a chance.

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP:

xvart: so you'd still go for a Buttonmen lynch despite Seacore switching his vote from Helio to him?

Yes, I will switch my vote to TheButtonmen tonight if Seacore is not looking to be strung up.

xvart.

[xvart]

If I was in your shoes, I'd be more suspicious of him turning up scum now that I've 'jumped ship', maybe I was distancing but didn't actually want to kill him. That would have been an argument I could have respected. But you've assumed that I was pushing for town to lynch a useless town member and when it became even more likely that he would be lynched, I got nervous and backed off?

Interesting scenario, all things considered. You neglected to realize that the one constant in both my scenario and yours is that you are scum; so I guess for the sake of your argument, I'll figure out if you were distancing yourself after you flip scum. Thanks for building a case on yourself, though I don't think it was necessary.

a) Why would scum want a useless town lynched?
b) If I did want that useless town lynched, as a scum, why would I back off when it became more likely?
c) Why do you assume that I'm scum worried about a town being lynched rather than a scum worried about a scum being lynched?

a) because it is an easy town lynch with a somewhat good excuse;
b) I think you backed off because he became an "obv-VI" and thus "obv-town";
c) as I've said, it appears that you became worried that he was too obvious town.

And you're making me feel better about you being lynched because this way we're lynching a slightly scummy usless town, rather than just a useless town.

Whoops! Scum slip much?

xvart.

[xvart]

Interesting turn of events; however, I think we should stay the course on TheButtonmen.

I also think it is way too early to be accusing people of being the shadow/double voter. Any attempt to do so has no bearing on reality other than creating misinformation or false cases being built.

With that said, and with the deadline looming, I'm switching my vote now.

Unvote: Seacore
Vote: TheButtonmen

Button, you are now at L-1. Time to claim.

xvart.

[xvart]

Unvote: TheButtonmen

Be back in a bit.

xvart.

[xvart]

And what's the limiting factor?

xvart.

[xvart]

I'll hammer...

Vote: Heliograph

xvart.

[xvart]

gg scum. You guys earned that win. I haven't read the scum QT yet, but I think reading the paranoia during the last night will at least provide some small shred of satisfaction.

Everyone who voted for name claim sucks.

Yes.

As I mentioned in the graveyard QT, I claimed Coldhands because I was trying to draw the NK by appearing to be a third party. I was on a cruise at the time where internet access was a little expensive, so I didn't have time to check my Coldhands claim of actually being in the first book. From my memory, I thought he was referenced in the prologue as the guy who attacked Benjen Stark. Once it was suggested that he wasn't I was like "shit, that backfired" but I guess it didn't matter anyway.

Also my next mini theme will either be Metal gear Solid or Malazan Book of the Fallen of some sort if anyone's interested.

I'm interested in the Malazan one for sure, despite struggling with the books.

Fun game everyone. Can't wait for the large one! Thanks for the good modding!

xvart.

[xvart]

What I don't get is that everyone kept calling Kinetic scum, but no one ever tried to lynch him. Usually, I think being brazenly antitown isn't worth the risk. (Personally, my style as scum is just to act as protown as possible and attack scummy townies, because I hate being suspected.) But in this game, Kinetic's plan worked wonders, particularly since so many townies' behaviour WRT the nameclaim was more suspicious than Kinetic's own.

I tried, I really did. I didn't focus on the name claiming in my suspicion because I haven't been in enough flavor theme games to have a knowledge base on that; but his justification and everything else was just rotten. I should have stayed focused.

But if you were third-party, wouldn't we be

less

likely to kill you? Odds are you'd be a BP SK or a survivor (who'd help the Mafia).

I was thinking, based on my bad memory of the prologue of GoT that Coldhands was a member of the Others, and would be seen as Cult recruiter or something along those lines, which would be a problem for the mafia; plus my sharp reservations against name claiming would stand out even more in that regard.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm sure you'd have been a thorn in our side had you survived. It's just weird how not one person voted for Kinetic from D2 onward, even though almost everyone suspected him.

Probably because he dropped off the face of the planet the rest of the game. I would like to think I would have followed up on it the next day (and I thought I mentioned somewhere that name claiming would waste day one but couldn't find it in my ISO, must have been someone else) but I'm not sure. I didn't follow the thread super closely after I died, just enough for flavor and some highlights.

xvart.