Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[SerialClergyman]

Not important. If I could choose the lynches from here on out, I'd have the masons claim and with the town reads I've got I think that might be enough.

For the town as a whole, if you lynch me you as-close-as-possible confirm hito as town. So the scum don't even have to target the masons, they can just kill hito and we'll be in a 6 man lylo with 2 confirmed.

I think that isn't hugely strong and isn't worth a mislynch.

[SerialClergyman]

In short - we should just try to lynch the person most likely scum. If that's me then so be it, but worries about exposing masons are vastly secondary when we have only 1 mislynch left.

[Vi]

Interesting. We simulposted the same scum list.

Well, yes. It's basically "everyone left after you take out DDD, Sando, and the two people being wagoned".

Vote: VP Baltar

(L-4)

[SerialClergyman]

Why are you taking out sando?

[hitogoroshi]

Okay, Albert. I'm having a hard time agreeing with a lot of what you said - not the least of which that a grown man can have a sugar rush to the point of needing to take back their words. ("I'm sorry, officer, it was the sugar - you know how it goes.")

But I'm willing to admit that it's not impossible to believe. And combined with SC's town read of you (this post is assuming we lynch SC and he flips town: if SC flips scum we're playing a bizarre, palette-shifted, upside-down version of this game where everyone has a goatee [unless you have a goatee already, in which case you have a SPIDER] and nothing I say here is particularly relevant) I think I'm willing to at least entertain the hypothetical that you're town.

So, let me ask this question assuming you're town:

Let's assume SC has been lynched and flipped town. You said you don't have the imagination for this scenario, but try. Who do you think the two remaining scum are? Preferably give both what you'd think if I was nk'd and what you'd think if I wasn't nk'd.

[Vi]

Why are you taking out sando?

He's not pushing hito && SerialClergyman, or at least he wasn't the last time I checked.

Then I rechecked, and I appear to be wrong on that count <.< So never mind that.

Also, no comment on imagining myself (or my avatar) with a goatee.

[hitogoroshi]

who needs imagination when you have ms paint

[SerialClergyman]

hito, you are cvruise control for cool.

Vi - this is what I thought was interesting. Are you sticking with sando town or is he in the pool?

[VP Baltar]

Do you still believe this? If not, then what would be your interpretation? I don't like that multiple people are basicially saying, "With an SC or hito townflip, my reads tomorrow will be a mystery."

Yes I still believe there is very likely scum between the two of you. Why the hell do you keep asking me this question and expect a different answer? And why should I be worried at this time what my reads will be tomorrow when we haven't even seen an alignment flip yet? You're really starting to annoy me with these useless questions. A town flip is always a cause for reevaluation...I don't see how this is confusing for you or somehow a change in stances from me.

But I'm going to give an answer, because an answer is important. And my answer is VP. Partner is beyond me. I've been getting town reads on Albert and Zorblag and scum read on Vi but I think that's just because I've been disagreeing with Vi.

Oh haaaaaay, I'm two scum in one man. That's pretty sweet. It's quite funny how you never get tired of calling me scum but never have the balls or the case to actually push it. But it's cool, I'm the gift that keeps on giving.

But VP got hit pretty hard by Ojanen's case on D2. We already know that the scum are killing those who are likely to cause problems, as evidenced by Amished's death. Sando has been chastising me for not using NK analysis and I've been giving excuses rather than JUST DOING IT. Ojanen didn't look obviously like a mason to me. And if she didn't look like a mason, then the reason she'd be the kill would be some WIFOM reason (rarely happens) or respect of her ability (possible, but would be limited to a significantly smaller group including VP) or because she was onto something (VP.)

I was "hit pretty hard by Ojanen's case"? News to me. As far as I could see, it looked like a pile of garbage and she was playing horribly. Now, you were definitely standing in the shadows going 'yeah, yeah, yeah', but again there was no real case to push. If I was as scummy as you're trying to portray in this quote, then I'd be dead. Also, appealing to WIFOM over Oj's death after Sando calls you out for not doing it certainly doesn't seem convenient.

VP's dancing around Reck is worth looking at. He didn't vote as the wagon grew, but did post a case.

heh. Remember when you brought this point up already and it was already answered and you didn't follow up because you know you were wrong....you should probably go back and reread that section. Additionally, you're saying that

I

danced around the Reck wagon. That's pretty rich. "Wagon on Reck gogogogo." "Ok, votevotevotevote." "JK, guyz, he's town. Seriously though, stop voting him!"

He was then able to participate in the conversation about toyota corollas but unable to respond to the gamechanging events that were happening, and didn't unvote despite it being a dicey situation.

It's a damn fine motorcar.

Well, if hito && SC are not scum, it would most likely be someone who doesn't want the hito/SC wagons derailed. That would be you/Trollblag/ABR.

Sense enough?

Not really. Sando and DDD aren't on this list for what reason?

I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. Please explain.

This is the first time in a long while that I've heard of someone being painted scum because of someone else's meta. Seriously?

Seriously. For all of his stupendous scumminess, Reckoner seems to me to have a limited bag of tricks at this point in his mafia career. I see no reason to believe that he wouldn't play to his scum meta here. It's not damning evidence of course, but logically I think it does fit with his play D1 and why he would vote PCE over charlatan even though he talked about the latter about 10 times as much in his catch up post.

[Sando]

My problem with Hito's case is this, he thinks that scum have set up both wagons, and that they will use SC or Hito flipping town as 'evidence' that the other is scum - Hito, please correct this if I'm mis-repping, cause this is the jist of what you seem to be saying to me, and it's why I think it's rediculous.

Yes, I if nothing else happened right now, and Serial was lynched and flipped town, all things being equal, I'd gun for Hito tomorrow. But I'd gun for Hito if he flipped scum as well... I don't like linkage cases, and I think you are both independantly scummy, and independantly the scummiest players in the game at the moment, by far. Considering that you and Serial are saying that each other is town, it seems unlikely that scum will turn around tomorrow and say 'zomg Serial was pushing Hito, and Hito was town, Serial is obv scum!'. Be funny if they tried though.

Maybe it's just me being in the position of the person who's absolutely gunning for Serial today, but how can scum have set up this awesome situation for themselves? Did they magically guess that someones first post of the day would be a fuck-off case on someone not themselves?

Hito, you've said you don't think I'm scum, if ABR isn't scum, what about your theory? Can anyone else be the scum setting this up?

Serial, why is Hito so pro-town to you?

[SerialClergyman]

VP, you're right, I've been unable to summon the courage to accuse you properly. I've been frustrated with my reads all game and I've never been confident enough about you to attack you. Ojanen's case hit home for me in a way that was unexpected, given up until then I thought you were possibly town and she was possibly scum. Then when Reck flipped I got totally thrown. But I think I'm back on course, and I think I have enough of a town read basis to start pushing, not to mention Ojanen's flip. I'm still far from sure, but you're head and shoulders above the others.

You're answer to not voting Reck was you didn't want to put him on L-1, which doesn't gel with any of your play so far. You weren't as sure about Reck as you are about me, when DDD said something slightly odd about Reck directing kills you unvoted Reck and said you were thinking yet when hito blows everyone's minds you don't give a toss and keep your vote on overnight and the next day barely mention it. Through mosto f D2 you say that Reck is scummy, but you then jumped on Albert's wagon without that seemingly affecting your read of Reck. I can't make sense of a lot of that with you as town.

And yes, I switched my mind on Reck once. I said we should vote him, then I said we shouldn't primarily because of the reaction to that original call for votes. With you, I count a case without a vote, then a vote on oneo f his biggest attackers, then a vote on him, then an unvote, then a vote on him again.

[VP Baltar]

when hito blows everyone's minds

This didn't happen as far as I can tell. The only people who seem to be putting stock in it are you two and now Vi, who--bless her heart--is overly susceptible to distrusting obvious facts.

Through mosto f D2 you say that Reck is scummy, but you then jumped on Albert's wagon without that seemingly affecting your read of Reck. I can't make sense of a lot of that with you as town.

My guess is that's because you're scum. You seriously don't see how I could attack ABR without that affecting my read on Reck? They very much looked like scumbuddies to me on Day 2 considering all of their buddying on Day 1. You don't remember me having it out with ABR over WHEN he started to suspect Reckoner? Yeah, I was trying to point out a connection between them.

And yes, I switched my mind on Reck once. I said we should vote him, then I said we shouldn't primarily because of the reaction to that original call for votes. With you, I count a case without a vote, then a vote on oneo f his biggest attackers, then a vote on him, then an unvote, then a vote on him again.

And throughout everything I was consistently attacking him. Never did I say I thought Reck could be town. Slowing down a wagon and pursuing alternate avenues of suspicion does not translate to not finding him scummy. It's called generating information. You also ignore the fact that I was suspicious of him from day 1, so I don't know what to tell you.

Also, if I'm your only scum read, why are you not voting me?

[SerialClergyman]

sando - he's not saying they'd lynch the other of us BECAUSE of one of us flipping one alignment or another, he's saying a lot of people stated that they shared your viewpoint - we are both scummy and both should be lynched. So it doesn't matter which one goes first, it doesn't matter what the flip is, both will be lynched. This is ideal for scum if we're both town, in fact it's something positively ideal.

Also, *gist and *ridiculous. What shithouse school did you go to anyway?

Maybe it's just me being in the position of the person who's absolutely gunning for Serial today, but how can scum have set up this awesome situation for themselves? Did they magically guess that someones first post of the day would be a fuck-off case on someone not themselves?

This is a key point. Look at the huge bunch of smiling, nodding faces after your case on me. Have you EVER had that sort of a reaction to a case on scum? The scum didn't have to set it up, they just had to say 'I agree with sando, I reckon one of hito or SC is scum' and if that stays the narrative they've won the game. Albert was pushing the other one, so they just needed to do the same thing.

Why is hito town? Because he did what a town player would do in such a circumstance. And it did it gutsily. He had no reason to try to confirm me, in fact if he pushed me a little more then he'd have got his team into lylo. I believe that he was prepared to be sacrificed to try to get the game back on track. His posts have screamed someone who is genuinely trying to find out who the scum are and trying to back himself and his understanding of the game.

Aside from those reasons, which obviously appeal more to me given I know my alignment, it's the position of the town. He's right - too many people are too fine with the 'either or both' scenario. Too little controversy in the reads and the cases. The town are being steered wrongly.

I've also been in a REALLY similar situation in a game called Commie Mafia in my wiki. In that game, the hito-esque player actually self-voted to try to get DDD cleared, and that slowly allowed the town to get itself out of the situation.

[SerialClergyman]

Good point.

vote VP

[VP Baltar]

This is a key point. Look at the huge bunch of smiling, nodding faces after your case on me. Have you EVER had that sort of a reaction to a case on scum?

el oh mfing el

I started the wagon [but not really] to see what sort of gut support there was for a Reck wagon. Turns out there's absolutely plenty. This is not necessarily a good sign. It either means he's obv scum and me calling for a wagon awakened a bit of gut in people, or it means that he's a good mislynch and the opportunists have popped on board.

Also, I shouldn't have to point out that you're not voting your top (and apparently only) scum read.

Unvote, Vote: SerialClergyman

[SerialClergyman]

What made you go back to voting me?

[VP Baltar]

You're more likely to be scum.

[Sando]

I agree with sando, I reckon one of hito or SC is scum

You need to re-think this buddy... I actually agreed with Zorblag in my first post in saying that Serial and Hito were scum... Vi voted you before I even posted, and you were in VPBs top 3 in his first post. Claiming that they suddenly had a change of heart and merely went along with me after I posted is an absolute lie. There was only 1 person who didn't suspect either you or Hito before I posted, DDD, and oh look, he didn't go along with either wagon after the cases were made.

So tell me oh wise and wonderful ones, who exactly saw my case and saw an opportunity? Stop saying 'scum', you apparently don't think me and ABR are scum Serial, and you state that you and Hito are town, that leaves 4 people, 2 of which by definition must be scum, get specific or get dead.

Also, *gist and *ridiculous. What shithouse school did you go to anyway?

One with spellcheck when I wasn't in a rush

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: Hito

I have absolutely no interest in a wagon of VP Baltar. I don't know if SC is now playing to the stereotype I expect of his play since he got wagoned heavily or if it's a legitimate change, but it gives me enough pause not to vote for him. Again, I think VPB raises a good point about PCE and Reck's scum meta. Additionally, I wasn't a fan of PCE's behavior on day one. I also don't trust at all that Hito's late change on day three is genuine, frankly I think it looks rather artificial and designed to generate the "look he's not taking the path of least resistance" reaction. All in all, I think Hito is the best choice for a lynch today.

[hitogoroshi]

Hey DDD, same question that's been permeating (in various forms) to the others - what would my townflip make you think about SC, and what would an SC townflip make you think about me?

[SerialClergyman]

Look at the narrative of the first page of the day.

Look at how different it is to what was settled on with the hito/SC thing.

Suspect lists:

VPB - Sando, Albert, Serial.
Vi - Sando and Serial
Albert - DDD and hito, maybe Zorblag
DDD - Albert
hito - Albert and sando
Zorblag - hito and Serial
Sando - hit and Serial

So only you and Zorblag agree on hito + SC.

After you post your case, VPB switches vote to me (partly because of meta /wrists), DDD unvotes after saying you have some goodp oint.

VP then uses Reck meta to add hito to his suspect list, and then vote him, now cementing hit + SC. (~951)

DDD puts hit + SC at top of suspect list. (~961)

Albert settles into hit + SC (~964)

Do you see what I mean? Either everyone just had a towngasm and somehow all saw the light about a Serial/hito scumteam or there is a deliberate attempt to steer it there.

And worse - most people consider us scummy in seperate ways. If everyone said we were obviously partners then that's a prediction that has to be reassessed once there's a townflip. But the 'I reckon at least one or maybe both of them are scum' narrative doesn't even risk that.

[SerialClergyman]

Arg.

Votecount please.

Who is more likely to be town after the townflip of the other, me or hito?

[Vi]

U. Vote Count

:arrow: SerialClergyman (L-2) ~ Sando, ABR, VP Baltar
VP Baltar (L-3) ~ Vi, SerialClergyman
hitogoroshi (L-3) ~ Troll, DDD
ABR (L-4) ~ hitogoroshi

8 alive -> 5 to lynch
No deadline anywhere

More to come.

[Albert B. Rampage]

For ABR:

I would like to know (from multiple sources if possible) about how big a deal it is that we

necessarily

lynch one of the two claimed Vanillas today.

Thor isn't going to split open the skies and send thunderbolts to destroy the town if we make another bandwagon. It's simply extremely unwise.

Interesting. We simulposted the same scum list.

Well, yes. It's basically "everyone left after you take out DDD, Sando, and

the two people being wagoned"

.

Vote: VP Baltar

(L-4)

Why would you take out the two people being wagoned? Why??

[Head_Honcho]

Votecount:

SerialClergyman(3): Sando, Albert B. Rampage, VP Baltar
hitogoroshi(2): Zorblag, Debonair Danny DiPietro
Albert B. Rampage(1): hitogoroshi
VP Baltar(1): Vi, SerialClergyman

With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch.
Three deadlines under the couch