Mafia 110: Mafia in Hell, Michigan (Tied.)

[crypto]

Now that the obligatory hell joke is out of the way,

Unvote: Netopalis. Vote: Crypto

for having an alt.

I have like a bazillion.

Vote: RayFrost.

Just . . . unnh. (shudder)

[crypto]

Cirno, whose alt are you?

[crypto]

my question to everyone:
What is your view on policy lynching?

Useful, but only as a last-ish resort.

Do you think scum or town lurk more?

Scum, slightly.

How active are you here at MS?

Fairly.

You should answer your own questions.

[crypto]

You are daytona fast, crypto! Your hands must be made of pentiums!

Wat.

Also:

Cirno, whose alt are you?

[crypto]

Trifles.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: Cirno.

[crypto]

D'oh.

@Everyone: If you are a cop with a guilty on Day 1, do you out yourself and risk getting NK'd or do you wait until you have minimum risk of being killed?

Not sure, but I'd try to build a legit-looking case on the guy before considering that question.

[crypto]

I was thinking Mae or possibly Vi on crack, but for some reason I don't recall alts being how Vi rolls.

[crypto]

That was re: Ythan/Cirno.

[crypto]

I missed Richard's question the first time around. That's why I took so long to answer it. I guess that doesn't explain why I still haven't asked him, though.

Rich, answer your own question, yo.

[crypto]

Liars, lynch them all.

No.

[crypto]

Liars, lynch them all.

No.

Why not?

Because townies often lie while pulling gambits.

In general, yes, lynching liars is a good idea, but it's not even close to a hard-and-fast rule.

[crypto]

Are you going to refer back to this later when you get caught in a lie?

No. Would you like me to compile every lie and gambit executed by a townie on this site to demonstrate the fact?

[crypto]

Crypto seems a little spammy.

Yeah, sometimes it gets a little out of control . . .

He doesn't post anything of value, and only replies to things, in that intelligent way you know he do without showing any sign of actually looking for scum.

We're a few pages into the thread. A lot of players haven't even chimed in yet. There's very little solid content to go off, and most of the time I don't consider myself a fan of the clumsy surveys players use to try to get out of RVS. That said, I've drawn up three (tentative) town reads—I'll share them if you want; I love sharing!—and I've argued against adherence to Lynch All Liars. I'm also getting mildly scummy vibes from horrordude.

Ta-da!

[crypto]

Ugh, I forgot:

I really hate having to do this, but I'm gonna have to

unvote: Cirno

.

Vote: horrordude0125.

[crypto]

My special seal of approval doesn't take any pressure off. Usually, I also am careful not to tunnel (though I apparently often give off the impression of it in the thread), I think. Lastly, the mafia normally isn't so blind as not to know who is obvious town and who isn't.

Is there a reason for this?

I'm also getting mildly scummy vibes from horrordude.

[crypto]

The whole point of vibes is that the supporting evidence is immaterial.

LEAVE ME ALONE.

But really, I don't like your reread-prompted RichardGHP FOS. It's just all sticky sloppy yucky blargh.

[crypto]

Consensus as I have seen in my games is that safe lists are bad.

There's a good bunch of players who don't care for that precaution.

[crypto]

Don't test me, you.

[crypto]

I'm red; Ythan's blue.

[crypto]

EPIC FUCKING FAIL C/P. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjOs-HbkVX4

[crypto]

Ythan, you're suspicious of horror. Wagon on him with me.

[crypto]

Ythan, you're suspicious of horror. Wagon on him with me.

[crypto]

although he posts quite often he doesn't seem to put much detail in what he says

What the hell do you want me to go into detail about? How exactly should I go into detail about a gut scum read? I hate to rain on your parade, but I'm not going to have a case compiled for you on page seven.

trying not to say much incase he gives away information he doesn't want to

How would this technique benefit scum?

[crypto]

RayFrost, on thin ice? Never!

[crypto]

Musher, what do you think of farside?

[crypto]

Musher, what do you think of farside?

What has either player said that made you ask that specific player what he thought of that specific other player?

Musher said he was giving thoughts on all the active players. Farside's been pretty active, but he neglected her.

[crypto]

And yes, Beater has a delicious-delicious aura of lurking to him.

[crypto]

Saint's only real posts as far as I'm concerned are his last three. Rich, sure. (But I'm not particularly sure I want to hear anyone's thoughts on him . . .)

[crypto]

I think he's harder to read than people think. I don't actually want people to ignore him; that was rhetorical.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: WRP_Beater.

[crypto]

Farside, I did answer. Kerrigan had only really had three posts of content at the time. Richard, meh, I guess the same question goes for him. Regardless, I didn't see either of them as influential/active as you. I could see leaving out Richard, but leaving out you was weird.

Saint, why unvote horror?

[crypto]

@crypto - Could you please explain your vote in Post 43? Was it about the whole alt thing?

Yes. It was a joke. My first serious vote was the vote for horrordude. That FOS sticks, but Beater needs to straighten up.

[crypto]

Why, out of curiosity?

Asshattery. He has yet to post content and when he chimed in we were well beyond the brush-off-criticism-with-a-joke stage.

[crypto]

If you try the "Intuition sucks" argument on me I will tear you limb from limb.

[crypto]

. . .

[crypto]

I understand that, but on D1, vibes won't usually get you anything but a mislynch. (From my experience, at least)

Not in my experience. My instinct's often more accurate than my reasoned cases.

Anyway, enough theory babble. Ythan, I don't get the FOS either, despite being all for it.

[crypto]

EBWOP: Never mind.

[crypto]

Yeah, you freaks post so fast that I'm asking questions you've already answered a minute ago.

[crypto]

Why, out of curiosity?

Asshattery. He has yet to post content and when he chimed in we were well beyond the brush-off-criticism-with-a-joke stage.

his join date is within the past 30 days, isn't it reasonable to think he has no idea what the hell he should say?
When I first started playing mafia, my posts where highly similar to his, in that they had no content in them and consisted of dumb things.

Lynch out to straighten him out.

Or we can try actually looking for scum?

Why do you assume newbs aren't scum?

Scum instantly have more information than vanilla townies as they know who is scum (and in a game with basic roles) who is town. This information can expose them if they comment on someone with something that makes it sound like they know the side that person is part of.

Meh. Scum can generate in-depth content just fine in my experience.

[crypto]

Horror, he means attack in terms of argument, not malice. I think.

[crypto]

Why is Beater not dead yet?

[crypto]

It didn't reek of scum; it reeked of WTF-bang. Your wording strikes me as opportunistic. I'd FOS you, but I don't want to scare you into changing your vote. I still like your vote where it is.

[crypto]

Doubt he is scum, scum wouldn't be stupid enough to post something like that surely.

Too Townie

[crypto]

Gah, I like this guy.

But I'll like him even better dangling from a necktie.

[crypto]

Cirno: it's time to stop lurking.

[crypto]

I agree; Rich is worse than Beater (narrowly). And this doesn't look like the frustrated townie strain of self-destruction.

Unvote. Vote: RichardGHP.

Rich, you can speed along the process by self-voting, you know. Otherwise, keep your vote on Ythan, because he's crystal-clear town and attacking him in this manner will send other players' impression of you downhill

fast

.

. . .

(crickets)

. . .

[crypto]

Kay, that's reasonable. Just stay put if you please.

[crypto]

Cirno, Dr.Cyanide, and Lowell need to start producing content, lickity split. They've been around way too long.

[crypto]

FOS: Ythan . . .

[crypto]

I agree that the cause was stupid, but your subsequent behavior is unnerving.

[crypto]

I'm speaking solely for myself, but I almost always find false accusations of tunnel vision extremely scummy. They're the sort of thing flailing scum bullshit about when they've run out of defenses.

[crypto]

Yes it is.

[crypto]

Obviously you aren't obvious town. It's obvious.

[crypto]

yay more attacking from scum and bitching which I agree doesn't strike me as fustrated townie.

[crypto]

Lowell isn't awful, exactly.

[crypto]

Oh, for the love of God.

(flings self off cliff)

[crypto]

also IS IT REALLY THAT HARD TO SPELL MY USERNAME?

Would you like my serious answer or my droll answer?

FOS: SaintKerrigan.

I wish you would stop making all my votes feel dirty with your mind-numbing bandwagoning.

[crypto]

Yes. No.

[crypto]

Can you explain the context of this joke vote?

She wouldn't out the main she apparently had.

How would it not?

Not providing content would be active lurking; active lurking is a very popular scum tell. Scum are more likely to win if they convey a pro-town attitude. There's really nothing to gain from avoiding in-depth content; I've seen scum belt it out all the time.

What was this about?

It was facetious. You were mad about my obv. town read on you.

[crypto]

Richard is still my #1 suspect for scum right now, and his responses to the pressures on him seem to support my theory. As of right now, I think he's the best lynch

Hi guys, I'm scum.

[crypto]

Fuck. Damn. It.

Unvote.

Vote: horrordude0215.

Scum-O-Meter

0.1 Ythan
0.1 Dedicated Scribe
0.2 Nobody Special
0.3 molestargazer
0.3 farside22
0.4 RichardGHP
0.4 jbernier93
0.4 Lowell
0.4 Rikenslope
0.5 RayFrost
0.5 Musher333
0.5 Cirno
0.5 Dr.Cyanide
0.6 pman5595
0.6 septL
0.6 ace5993
0.6 WRP_Beater
0.7 SaintKerrigan
0.8 horrordude0215

And you get this how?

I'm trying to force myself to stop ignoring my gut reads. Every time I push them aside, I regret it, and then I just do the same damn thing again.

[crypto]

So it's not scummy because it's scummy?

It depends on the player.

[crypto]

So it's not scummy because it's scummy?

It depends on the player.

Which I guess makes it a null tell.

[crypto]

Ythan, I'm not using it as a tell. I don't know many of them very well, but I don't need to meta them to grasp their style and level of investment in the game—it's self-evident in the thread.

[crypto]

Blargh. I mean that I'm not actively using it as a tell in this game; I think such a tell exists.

[crypto]

Does that necessarily make him scum, or especially scummy, in your eyes?

[crypto]

Does that necessarily make him scum, or especially scummy, in your eyes?

It makes him vote worthy, and some of his statements have been scummy as others have clearly pointed out.

Your answer should be "Yes/no and here's why . . ."

Ythan, you tell us. I find it mildly creative, so I'm more inclined to believe it.

[crypto]

y r u so skumy

[crypto]

Night zero . . . ? I don't know, I assumed there wasn't one. You're not role-fishing, are you?

I'd rather not risk an investigative role who doubles up as a mafia visit deterrent.

[crypto]

Watcher is a normal role. I don't like how Ythan's pushing this lynch.

[crypto]

Wow. Horror, I voted you because I don't like the feel of your posts one bit. Your unvote wasn't what did it. If it was, then it wouldn't be a gut read on my part, because the unvote would

be

my

case

. The way you say things is what's nagging at my Scumdar 5000.

That was a pretty good text wall by Lowell. (Then again, the last time I said that he flipped scum.) He makes some good points, even if I don't agree with them all. I know from experience what he means about Beater (as for this instance, I'm not yet sure what to make of it, though I'm significantly less interested in Beater than I was before), and his willingness to say that sort of thing strikes me as pro-town.

[crypto]

How interesting.

Explain.

[crypto]

Is pointing out what's scummy about any of that too much for you?

I've elected not to list my town reads because none of them are even close to a lynch. If there's a super-awesome reason I am missing, pleeeaase enlighten me.

[crypto]

WTF, thread explosion.

[crypto]

Something tells me that Riddick's daykill was a test on WRP. and needless to say, he failed miserably.

Vote: WRP_Beater

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

He claimed VT

, with what looks like role PM paraphrasing.

Unvote: horrordude0215. Vote VOTE

VOTE

: horrordude0125.

Crypto: That said, I've drawn up three (tentative) town reads—I'll share them if you want; I love sharing!—
Crypto: My special seal of approval doesn't take any pressure off.

What?

Ythan (I think) said that publicly announcing town reads takes pressure off those players. I replied that my special seal of approval (my town read) doesn't take any pressure off. Let me know a few minutes before you try to warp this into some sort of scum tell, so I can nuke some popcorn.

Crypto: What the hell do you want me to go into detail about? How exactly should I go into detail about a gut scum read? I hate to rain on your parade, but I'm not going to have a case compiled for you on page seven.

Why not?

Why not? Hmm, I don't know, maybe because the entire point of gut reads is that you're unable to pinpoint the solid evidence—the detail—supporting them . . .

FOS: Dr.Cyanide.

Your case against me is shallow, lazy, half hashed, and utterly lacking in conviction. And you still haven't elaborated on the quotes.

[crypto]

Hells yes.

[crypto]

my lack of sleep when posting that just gave him an opportunity to go in for the kill

Lack of sleep is your excuse for saying, "Something tells me that Riddick's daykill was a test on WRP. and needless to say, he failed miserably"?

[crypto]

I'm finally doing okay, and then you give me a .1 rating? Why?

Seeing as it's a

Scum

-O-Meter—the higher the decimal, the scummier. So, um, yeah.

my second choice would be crypto for saying WRP is clear and saying it was a role claim paraphrase where I don't see how that is the case at all.

1. Did I say he was

clear

? Quote me. There's a stark difference between castigating horrordude for saying something ridonkulous—while implying a town shift in my read on Beater—and

clearing

Beater.
2. He stated his win condition. That smells like paraphrasing. As for discrepancies, don't mods who don't paste VT PMs publicly vary them?

[crypto]

There was and is never anything weird about me at any time.

[crypto]

Are you blind, Dr.Cyanide, or are you intentionally ignoring my attacks on your eye-poppingly bad case on me?

[crypto]

Why are you yelling at horror like this then?

Because he acted like Beater had done something scummy when he hadn't and failed to provide any detail. I don't know about you, but that looks to me like scum trying to come up with a BS but intelligent-looking reason to follow the flow of suspicions.

2. How do you see his comment as paraphrasing in the least?

Can you show a game that is normal that a mod varied VT PM's?

I could've sworn Mini 880 (which I played in) had them, but it didn't, and I looked through my meta and couldn't find any. It might've been a game I'd read. However: An important modding practice: listing the Vanilla role PM. If you really want me to, I'll dig up an example or two.

Re: Horror's Case

Iso. 5: A joke vote during RVS is not something you righteously "let . . . pass." It is, after all, a joke vote during RVS.
Iso. 13: Why? Gut reads are scummy? Congratulations! You've just condemned every player on this site who plays by any degree of gut at all whatsoever—which is nearly every person on the site.
Iso. 21: Yes, and your problem is . . . ? Why are you only opposed to wagons when they (attempt to) land on you?
Iso. 22:
Iso. 30: Voting without reason is not a scum tell. Nice try.
Iso. 31: I assume you are calling me a hypocrite—by implication, at least, because you apparently don't have the nerve to make the case outright. Huh. So I'm not allowed to ask someone why they did something, just because I did the same thing? You're not a big fan of scum hunting, are you?
Iso. 41: If you say so.
Iso. 46: Why do you like the move? What does your liking this specific move have to do with my alignment? Why do you think I just did it for the wagon? Was my reason not good enough? Why is doing it for the wagon a scum tell (in this situation)?
Iso. 49: That was a facetious FOS, and it was explained. Do your homework.
Iso. 57: I didn't wagon mindlessly like he did. I also didn't focus solely on players being wagoned, as you

just

proved by castigating me for voting for you: I was the only one who took that much interest in your scumminess.
Iso. 61: You don't think I have reasons?
Iso. 75: Why is it a dumbass reason?

Speaking of cases, reasons, and bandwagons, what the hell have you been doing all game? I'm looking through your iso. and I'm not seeing much.

HYPOCRITE!!1!

Even better is that you haven't done much until

now

. Waiting till you've got a rapidly growing wagon on you to make your case and then doing it on the guy who's been pushing your lynch all along . . . well, you know where I'm going with this.

[crypto]

ISO 30: It may not be a good scum tell, but it's not a very pro-town thing to do, don't you think?

Depending on the circumstances, it's a phenomenally pro-town thing to do. Here, it was simply an indication that I was disgusted with and suspicious of Beater's play.

ISO 31: I was calling you a hypocrite. Why you didn't ask yourself the same question, because if you did something and then asked a question of someone who did the same thing, why shouldn't you have to answer the question? (I think that question made sense... if not tell me and I can rephrase it)

I didn't ask myself the same question because (a) I already knew the answer and (b) in many situations I don't like being completely transparent about my reads.

ISO 41: "Why isn't he dead yet?" Nope, that's not trying to convince people to bandwagon, is it?

You've changed your argument. There's a gargantuan difference between "trying to rush the lynch" and "trying to convince people to bandwagon." Nice try.

1. I like the move because I think that Richard is scummy as well, and therefore I would support a Richard Lynch.

You like my move just because I agreed with you? Mere agreement is a town tell? Or is town tell not what you mean by "like the move"?

3. I think you did it because you were going to try and get a mislynch (or you were bussing).

Yes,

why

do you think that? You're arbitrarily picking that over a town motivation.

ISO 57: You took an interest in my scumminess? You admitted that you didn't have any evidence to go off of!

Lack of tangible evidence means there's no scumminess I can take interest in?

ISO 61: You haven't really explained any good ones

I don't feel the need to explain a bunch of reads when they're impertinent to the thread of conversation. Feel free to ask.

ISO 75: You immediately dismiss the possibility that you are scum because, well, it's you. I'm not buying it

Wow. This isn't rocket science. Take a long, hard look at this post and tell me my reason for FOSing Dr.Cyanide.

[crypto]

I'm offically capatilizing on a slip from someone who stated that WRP was paraphrasing a town PM when in fact there was nothing close to that being the town win condition and Crypto didn't recognize it means scum.

(condescending sigh)

I win with the town.

[crypto]

Obviously farside's whole argument against you just went over your head.

(embarrassed sigh) Want to explain for me?

[crypto]

How is that paraphrasing a the town PM? You can keep avoiding the question but I'm quiet happy with my vote.

I've been avoiding the question? I don't know how to explain it any further.

It looks like town role PM paraphrasing.

I cannot fucking recall ever receiving a town PM that does not state, "You win with the town," or "You win when all anti-town forces/roles/players/whatever are eliminated," or "The town wins when all anti-town forces are eliminated," or something like that.

Why didn't you say that in the post then?

Because I was unaware that you wouldn't see the implication . . .

Well now I'm asking you the question. Care to answer?

I unvoted you because at the time I found Beater scummier, for reasons I just outlined.

"Bandwagon with me so we can lynch him faster"... seems like pretty much the same thing.

That is complete bullshit. Bandwagon, per se, in no way implies a speedy lynch. Especially not on day one. Sorry.

Because you're scummy as hell and I think that you were doing it for the wagon.

So you think that was a scum move because you already have a scum read on me, which is based on a bullshit case. Confirmation bias is bad enough; confirmation bias backed by a bullshit case is far worse.

You haven't given me anything that I've done as scummy that I haven't already explained!

What does that have to do with anything? If I have a gut read on you, then I certainly haven't asked any questions about that gut read, so you couldn't possibly have explained.

We can argue all day about whether your scummy-looking posts like the one about Riddick's day kill test were scummy, but there's not really any solid logic for either of us to use. Your use of lack of sleep as an excuse isn't going to change my mind, and I certainly won't change your mind by refuting that excuse.

Asking now, thanks

Sorry, no. I have neither the time nor the energy to belt out a player-by-player analysis text wall, and it's incredibly irrelevant. I also maintain that my reads, reasoned and unreasoned alike, are infinitely better than your lack of.

I don't buy it... Just because you don't think his argument wasn't good enough doesn't mean that you're not scum. It almost seems like an OMGUS to me

Wow. You are so full of it. "Shallow, lazy, [and] half hashed" all apply to faux scum hunting; faux scum hunting obviously applies to noncommittal scum.

[crypto]

And I meant to add that "lacking in conviction" applies to scum who don't want to step too hard on other players' toes.

[crypto]

Holy shit, Riddick. I abandoned you this game and you tore it up.

[crypto]

Also, I apologize to everyone for lurking at the end of day 1 and to my scum team for not contributing on night 1. (Fortunately, Faraday covered the main points I'd intended to cover.) If the game hadn't gone into night I'd have flaked out like I flaked out of my other game, which was an absolutely pathetic occurrence for me.

[crypto]

horrordude went out in a blaze of swearing.

If you think this is a bad thing then I'm offended and I feel that you should reconsider your stance.

[crypto]

horrordude went out in a blaze of swearing.

If you think this is a bad thing then I'm offended and I feel that you should reconsider your stance.

Okay. It was a bad thing for

my

team. Lose your cool and get replaced, not lynched.

Getting lynched because "anger is a scum tell" and then watching three of your four FOSes flip scum is terribly gratifying.

Um, okay, so it's not the most pro-town thing in the world.