Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[VP Baltar]

Why are you still trying to frame hito as scum?

Why do I beat my wife? I dunno....


Anyway, at some point are you going to vote SC so we can get on lynch scum?

[VP Baltar]

*lynching

[Albert B. Rampage]

Anyway, at some point are you going to vote SC so we can get on lynch scum?

Couldn't have said it better...Vi is just delaying the inevitable.

[Vi]

Why are you still trying to frame hito as scum?

Why do I beat my wife? I dunno....

*scribbles note to self: "Seek marital counselor"*

If that's an objection to the question, I don't understand it.

Anyway, at some point are you going to vote SC so we can get on lynching scum?

Couldn't have said it better...Vi is just delaying the inevitable.

... <.<*
I feel like I'm getting nowhere here. And as much as I don't want to admit it, SerialClergyman is presently the only wagon with enough support to lead to a lynch.

I want to wait for one more post from SerialClergyman.

[VP Baltar]

If that's an objection to the question, I don't understand it.

It was an objection to the rhetoric of it. I don't feel I've been "trying to frame hito as scum". That implies his innocence from the start, and consequently implies my attack is scummy. I simply stated the facts as I see them. You're welcome to have a different interpretation, but it is hardly a frame job...which is disturbingly close in allegation to THE MECHANISM *da da daaaaaaaaaaaaah*

I feel like I'm getting nowhere here. And as much as I don't want to admit it, SerialClergyman is presently the only wagon with enough support to lead to a lynch.

I'm not trying to dismiss a case on someone else out of hand, but I'm just not seeing convincing arguments against anyone else and SC's floundering to have any real idea of what's going on stinks to me.

I think we know your stance on hito, but what do you really think of SC? Do you subscribe to THE MECHANISM or do you think it's possible that SC just tagged along with that because it's convenient for him?

[Albert B. Rampage]

What's the mechanism(bolded)?

[VP Baltar]

It's hito's post where he claimed that you (and me) concocted a master plan to lynch he and Serial back to back and then, possibly, laugh maniacally about it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

hahaha I'm laughing right now!!

[Albert B. Rampage]

I don't think anyone but SerialClergyman would NK Ojanen. Apparently, and according to him, she knows how to read him as scum.

[Vi]

If that's an objection to the question, I don't understand it.

It was an objection to the rhetoric of it. I don't feel I've been "trying to frame hito as scum". That implies his innocence from the start, and consequently implies my attack is scummy. I simply stated the facts as I see them. You're welcome to have a different interpretation, but it is hardly a frame job...which is disturbingly close in allegation to THE MECHANISM *da da daaaaaaaaaaaaah*

Okay, wrong use of "frame". "Portray", then.

I feel like I'm getting nowhere here. And as much as I don't want to admit it, SerialClergyman is presently the only wagon with enough support to lead to a lynch.

I'm not trying to dismiss a case on someone else out of hand, but I'm just not seeing convincing arguments against anyone else and SC's floundering to have any real idea of what's going on stinks to me.

I think we know your stance on hito, but what do you really think of SC? Do you subscribe to THE MECHANISM or do you think it's possible that SC just tagged along with that because it's convenient for him?

The reason I asked SerialClergyman who should be lynched is because it's true that he's floundering; lots of defense, no ideas for offense (his vote is on you, but he doesn't seem to be acting like you're scum) beyond bracing himself for his own lynch. This is to stand in contrast with hito trying to turn his situation around, throwing reasonable names out, and generally trying to plow in that direction. So it's not implausible that SerialClergyman tried to catch the current, but at the same time I wouldn't expect scum to be as accepting of being lynched. (Although the reason I asked why he was trying to determine which of hito/SC would be a better lynch was because he had already answered that question himself.)
It's not a

bad

lynch, but I feel ambivalent about it.

I think THE MECHANISM - in terms of people chaining lynches - will speak for itself tomorrow if one of hito/SC is lynched today. I do agree with one consequence of the idea - ABR+SC is not likely.

I don't think anyone but SerialClergyman would NK Ojanen. Apparently, and according to him, she knows how to read him as scum.

Did you just think of this?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I did not.

[hitogoroshi]

I don't have the time to make a more formal post or to look for questions posed to me because I've got class pretty soon, but let me say something quick before anything drastic happens.

It looks like SC is going to be the lynch. Now, it seems he's prepared for it, but I want to point something out. We are in some kind of game twilight zone where we have someone who is willing to be the mislynch that sends us into LYLO (usual disclaimer of, if SC is scum lynch me I'm wrong about everything etc.). He's doing it because we both realized the undercurrent behind events and are trying to put the game on track. It's just cheapening the whole damn thing to say 'well if SC is town we can think about that later.'

If SC is going to be the lynch today, I want to hear some actual, serious speculation about what it would mean if he flips town,

before any lynch happens

. If someone is willing to die for what it would say about the gamestate you do not get to dodge the question and defer it until after the scum can chat about it in their QT.

[Albert B. Rampage]

If SC is going to be the lynch today, I want to hear some actual, serious speculation about what it would mean if he flips town,

before any lynch happens

.

Much like the Third Reich in 1945, you are in no position to be making demands.

[VP Baltar]

Happy scumday, hito!

If SC flips town, which I greatly doubt, I'd probably be most interested in Sando or ABR for starters. It's complete WIFOM though because there would be so many things that would need to be reconsidered at that point. You'd probably look more town I guess if that's what you're worried about.

[VP Baltar]

It's not a bad lynch, but I feel ambivalent about it.

So who's you're preference today then? Me?

[Zorblag]

@SerialClergyman, you've left the first couple sentences off the part of my post that apparently made you itch which is interesting as I think that they (the first in particular) don't at all indicate I'm expecting a town flip. What I said there was:

I don't currently have a great reason to think that anyone has a better chance than the two of them of being scum. I don't buy the arguments against Albert B. Rampage or VP Baltar. I do think that after the flip today it is going to be worth looking at what's happened today and using that to try to figure out who had the most to gain but I'm not interested in holding off on what I think the best lynches are because I'm worried that lynching one of them and having the come up town is likely to lead to the mislynch of the other. I think that describing that sort of attitude as "my thoughts will be a mystery after a potential mislynch today" or something of the sort is something of a spin job.

My guess is that if we lynch either you or hitogoroshi we're going to get a scum flip but regardless of your alignment we are going to want to take a look at what's happened today and try to figure out who has the most to gain from what effects their actions have had on how lynches might go down. I've also been pretty clear that I think that the two of you would be the best choices for lynching so I don't have any trouble talking about what I think the best lynches for today are and having it be clear that I think it would be you and hitogoroshi.

I in general prefer not to give all the reasons for the questions that I ask as at times that defeats part of the purpose of the question. I'm interested in seeing what people think is worth responding to in given situations in addition to almost always caring some about the answers that people choose to give. I don't think that I've been asking you an unreasonable amount of questions but perhaps you disagree there. Certainly the rate at which your answering does indicate that you think I'm asking about things which aren't important for whatever reason.

@Vi, my vote is still on hitogoroshi because I think he's still the most likely to be scum. I don't buy the case on Albert B. Rampage because it doesn't seem to take into account how I expect him to play. I don't buy the case on VP Baltar because his actions from day one forward in terms of suspicions and who he's choosing to attack form a pretty reasonable path for which I fail to see great scum motivations. I don't take VP Baltar's dislike of hitogoroshi to be simply a product of xRECKONERx's scum play as you seem to be doing; instead it seems as though xRECKONERx's scum meta not being inconsistent with hitogoroshi as scum seems to have removed a concern he expressed near the start of the day.

@hitogoroshi, if we lynch SerialClergyman today and he flips town then I fully expect to have at least two and hopefully three other (town) alignments known before we make any other lynches. We'll definitely learn that whoever the scum kill tonight is town. Ideally that won't be a mason and then we'll have the masons claim tomorrow. That knocks out three people but I'm not sure who it's going to be. I'm hesitant to go into any particular details in part because who I think is likely to be scum tied to at least some degree to how likely I think people are likely to be masons and right now I don't think that's worth sharing.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Vi]

It looks like SC is going to be the lynch. Now, it seems he's prepared for it, but I want to point something out. We are in some kind of game twilight zone where we have someone who is willing to be the mislynch that sends us into LYLO (usual disclaimer of, if SC is scum lynch me I'm wrong about everything etc.). He's doing it because we both realized the undercurrent behind events and are trying to put the game on track. It's just cheapening the whole damn thing to say 'well if SC is town we can think about that later.'

If SC is going to be the lynch today, I want to hear some actual, serious speculation about what it would mean if he flips town, before any lynch happens. If someone is willing to die for what it would say about the gamestate you do not get to dodge the question and defer it until after the scum can chat about it in their QT.

So who's you're preference today then? Me?

A question and an answer before I say anything!

I can't tell if you're pushing hito as scum or Town anymore, and your sidestep of my question - rephrased for your convenience! - isn't making it go away.

ABR - why post 1133 when you did, then?

And then there's...

@Vi, my vote is still on hitogoroshi because I think he's still the most likely to be scum. I don't buy the case on Albert B. Rampage because it doesn't seem to take into account how I expect him to play. I don't buy the case on VP Baltar because his actions from day one forward in terms of suspicions and who he's choosing to attack form a pretty reasonable path for which I fail to see great scum motivations. I don't take VP Baltar's dislike of hitogoroshi to be simply a product of xRECKONERx's scum play as you seem to be doing; instead it seems as though xRECKONERx's scum meta not being inconsistent with hitogoroshi as scum seems to have removed a concern he expressed near the start of the day.

You know, there's a

really obvious

other party you're not mentioning.

I don't take VP Baltar's dislike of hitogoroshi to be simply a product of xRECKONERx's scum play as you seem to be doing; instead it seems as though xRECKONERx's scum meta not being inconsistent with hitogoroshi as scum seems to have removed a concern he expressed near the start of the day.

This doesn't answer the question: Why suspect hito?

---

I'm going to go reread. (>")>
I'm usually against the grain, but not

this much

.

[SerialClergyman]

I don't think anyone but SerialClergyman would NK Ojanen. Apparently, and according to him, she knows how to read him as scum.

this is evidently not true, Albert. I am a great fan of her abilities. But as you well know, the only game I've played as scum with her she got me completely wrong.

[Sando]

I want to hear some actual, serious speculation about what it would mean if he flips town, before any lynch happens.

Slight scum-points for those pushing the wagon, slight town points for those against, gee that was tough...

What do you expect to happen? You've whinged about the fact that some people, myself included have previously stated that we'll lynch you regardless of what he flips, and now you want to know what we'll do if he flips town?

Yeah you're not drawing this out with pointless questions at all...

Personally, while my view has modified slightly since I stated that I'd simply push on you tomorrow Hito, his flip will have very little impact on me. I simply don't trust linking cases, without trusting links, lynch flips have little impact on my thinking.

A question for everyone and anyone:

Did anyone think either Serial or Hito were possible/probable masons going into today? If so, why?

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh, I've tried and I can't do it.

The main problem is if you lynch me and hito gets confirmed, then the scum are pretty much looking at NKing him because it'd surely be too risky to kill someone else and risk going into a 6-man lylo with 3 confirmed (2 masons and hito.)

Now - if I go making a case on someone and really calling people to action, assuming I could even convince everyone, I have a 2/6 chance of getting it right. I don't know where the masons are, I'm not going after hito but essentailyl any of the others of you could be scum.

If I'm wrong, then I'll be lynched the next day. So it's a 1shot thing - hit scum or lose.

If I'm lynched today and hito is NKed, then we have a 2/4 chance of finding scum tomorrow, because the masons can claim and hito and I will be dead. Obviously that's a 1-shot thing as well, but the odds are significantly better.

Now if I couldn't convince you all that hito and I are town, we could go hunt scum merrily and still have a mislynch up our sleeves, but that ship has essentially sailed, with VPB convinced on me, Albert convinced on me, Zorblag still pretty convinced and sando demanding I find scum for him. Not to mention DDD still voting hito.

What's complicating my reads somewhat is that I can't believe so many people who know me and should know better are voting me. Albert has just intimately gone through a game where I won as scum in this very setup and I can't believe he would view my game there as anything like this one. VPB just finished a game with me where he, as town, double voted me at the last minute to ensure I was lynched due to a bad case based on bad meta and little else and yet here we are again. Sando knows me very well and is a pretty logical guy yet he's being as stubborn as a mule, also using bad meta and just being a contrarian.

And I know they can't all be scum, so at least one of them is being a chimp, and whoever that person or persons are is shielding the scum, if any of them are scum.

Zorblag, I appreciate that sometimes you don't want to spell out the purpose of a question, but asking 'should we no lynch tomorrow' doesn't seem like the sort of TRAP SPRUNG question where that applies - it just looks irrelevent. Yes, I think many of your questions have been irrelevent. I don't think you've asked too many, you've just asked those sorts of questions that are unmemorable. (word? spelling?)

So look, I won't pretend I've got anything lefti n the tank. The most important thing is that hito is considered town on my town flip, and from there it's up to the masons to sort out.

You may fire when ready.

[Albert B. Rampage]

TL;DR

Vote SC.

[Vi]

...

Unvote: VP Baltar
Vote: SerialClergyman

(L-1)

[Albert B. Rampage]

Zorblag, le coup de grace por favor?

[SerialClergyman]

Wait a sec.

Give me one more day and I'll give you my thoughts on everyone.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Don't care. Ignore and lynch away.