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Post Post #300 (ISO) » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:18 pm

Post by Starbuck »

Yosarian2 wrote:
Starbuck wrote:Calling someone dumb = personal attack, thus ad hom
Starbuck, it's not ad hom to say "I don't think person X is scum, I think he's dumb town".

It's also not at all against site rules used in this way. It was jeep who coined the phrase "Is he dumb, or is he scum". It's a perfectly valid part of the game, since it's so important to figure out the motivations for a person's acts.
But he didn't say he was "dumb town", he said....
iLord wrote:CooLDoG is dumb, not scum. I'm sure we're all well acquainted with the type.
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Post Post #301 (ISO) » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:18 pm

Post by MrSuave »

Hello. It may be true that my posts in this game are few, but that is just how I roll at the start of days most of the time. I will say though that that whole insult dumb thing is just that, dumb. It's just distracting and I find it slightly suspicious. I mean sure it could be just a silly argument, or it could be some kind of smoke screen. But those are my thoughts atm.
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Post Post #302 (ISO) » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:22 pm

Post by Starbuck »

Btw, it's not circumstantial ad hom, it's abusive ad hom imho.

Right from the page that iLord linked...
MS Wiki - Ad hom Page wrote:Abusive: An attack on the character or other personal qualities of the opponent. An example: "I'm not going to listen to anything you say because you're stupid."
Anyways, done with this distracting topic.



McGriddle wrote:A. WTH is a cult game B. I figured there were only 2 scum because every game I have been in has had 2 scum, and C. You think EVERYTHING is a slip.
About B, how many games have you played on this site?

You do realize that the number of scum scales with the number of players because there's a little thing called balance.
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Post Post #303 (ISO) » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:14 pm

Post by manho »

i think that's a slip from McGriddle, and with the other scum tell such as trying to look pro-town and being overly-defensive, the FoS is upgraded to a vote.

unvote, vote: McGriddle


i think KMD is a bit strange here. i don't know if it is his playstyle as i've only played with him for a game(?), which is Plum's Dodgeball again, where i was scum-buddy with CD and he was caught by KMD in day 1 and i killed KMD night 1. maybe he has caught the scum again in this game.
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Post Post #304 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:52 am

Post by iLord »

Yos2 wrote:You just assumed there were only 2 scum in a 20 player game? Really?
McGriddle needs to answer this.

And give links to a 12+ player game with only 2 scum.
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Post Post #305 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:08 am

Post by ODDin »

CooLDoG wrote:well, why don't you
a)start spelling my name out in full, and why don't you capitalize all of the letter correctly :x
Fine.
CooLDoG wrote: 1) I understand, still you said all, all means everyone, not you...
If I wanted to mean "everyone", I wouldn't have said "I'm only speaking for myself", now would I?
CooLDoG wrote: 2) I have a real life I can't hit the refresh button 50 times hoping a new post pops up
I'm not expecting you to sit at your computer and read every post when it appears. I'm expecting you to catch up with everything you've missed once you do come and over and before you post. Or, at any rate, catch up with everything that is relevant with what you're posting (though I do expect you to catch up with everything else as well eventually).
CooLDoG wrote: 2a) I also got a scummy scent from him early on, I vote him on gut, and because he DID say that zaz was scum baste on him not having many posts
No, he didn't, he said so himself and it's absolutely clear he didn't from his posts. Read them again, and try to understand it this time.
CooLDoG wrote: 2b)Because I un-like you don't have two hours to randomly hit the re-fresh button, I have to work. And I don't have all the time in the world to write up posts. I was going to put it at the end of my post. I hit submit thinking it was over. I had a litle more time on my hands so I hit the refresh button. I then saw his post and it hit me that I forgot to put that in my post...
2c)above...
Fine. Why didn't you say this earlier?

* * *
wolframnhart wrote:@ODDin
Wow? Wow what?
Wow at McGriddle saying that he doesn't need to read the game because he's already caught the scum. It's just so completely obvious to anyone that bothers to think for even a little bit that "I don't need to read the game because I've caught the scum" (on D1, no less) is at the very least completely and utterly anti-town and not the thing one is supposed to be doing, that I was contended with simply expressing my emotions.

* * *
McGriddle wrote:A. WTH is a cult game B. I figured there were only 2 scum because every game I have been in has had 2 scum, and C. You think EVERYTHING is a slip.
Yet another wow. For starters, read the rules of games you sign up to.
farside, in the sign-up thread wrote:This is a cult game which means players become zombies or if they are a power role they will die.
Frankly, when I read the original post I thought you meant "I've caught my 2 scum for today and won't read the game until they're lynched and I can move on to the other scum". Now that you made it clear that you actually thought there are 2 scum in the game, I'm with yos, definitely sounds like a slip. I mean, for your sake, I hope it's a slip, and not that you actually thought it makes sense to have 2 scum and 18 town in a non-cult game.

* * *
Kmd4390 wrote:No, I'm more willing to vote Reck. You want me to hold on to my gut read for the entire game though because it came so late in the game.
Just to make it clear, I don't specifically want you to do anything here.
kmd wrote:I was more willing to vote Reck, my top suspect, which is why I did. I said that I was also willing to vote Evilsnail at that time because he was my next suspect.
[...]
ODDin, I'm not sure where you get "equally willing" from. You said it multiple times, but I don't believe I ever even implied that.
You said "vote: reck, also willing to vote evilsnail". When people say such things, I understand that they are equally willing to vote for both of them, so they just select the marginally scummier among them. When I have two suspects, one significantly more scummy than the other, I say "vote: X, FoS: y".
There's a difference between "willing to vote" and "fos".

* * *

Starbuck: calling somebody dumb is not ad hom, per se. ad hom is a logical fallacy where your argument is based on the personal qualities of a person which have nothing to do with the matter at hand.
For instance, "I hate your political opinions and therefore you must also be a bad mathematician" is ad hom, since political opinions have nothing to do with the understanding of mathematics.
In the case of mafia, to say "you're an idiot and therefore you're scum" is ad hom, since your intellectual qualities have nothing to do with the role you're being given.
What iLord said was in no way ad hom. If anything, it was protecting against ad hom coming from others.
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Post Post #306 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:29 am

Post by wolframnhart »

MrSuave wrote:Hello. It may be true that my posts in this game are few, but that is just how I roll at the start of days most of the time. I will say though that that whole insult dumb thing is just that, dumb. It's just distracting and I find it slightly suspicious. I mean sure it could be just a silly argument, or it could be some kind of smoke screen. But those are my thoughts atm.
Who do you think would be using it as a distraction/smoke screen?
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Post Post #307 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:36 am

Post by McGriddle »

I haven't been in any 12+ games and every game I have played (for the most part) is a newbie game, so no, I didn't know that scum increased with number of players. I have been in a 12 person a 9 person and a 7 person game, so I have never had more than 2 scum per game. Besides, how is that scummy? wouldn't that be pro-town that I didn't know how many scum there were in this game?
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Post Post #308 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:42 am

Post by CooLDoG »

iLord wrote:
Starbuck wrote:1. I don't like ad hom and I don't like insults (especially when they are against the rules of MS). You called CoolDog dumb, that's an insult.
1. Do you think I'm scum for insulting C_D?
2. Why ignore the village idiot comparison?
3. Do you know what ad hom is?
Starbuck wrote:2. Manho voted and didn't give a reason. I asked manho what his reason was and he gave that answer. That had nothing to do with ZazieR.
Fine, you get partial credit for it. But Zazier's still the one that set it up :p.
post comeing, but guys I don't really care, no really I don't care. You could call me a fucking id10t, for all I care. If I act dumb, call it as you see it.
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Post Post #309 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:43 am

Post by McGriddle »

I don't think you're dumb :)
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Post Post #310 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:46 am

Post by CooLDoG »

And I don't care.... more coming!
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Post Post #311 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:51 am

Post by CooLDoG »

I as I am reading have found some things out. How many times has KMD chainged his vote? Over 4 for sure! I have never seen him so wishy-washy.

Starbuck, here we go....
an insult is only hurtful if the person you call dumb takes it badlly and his hurt by it. I could not care less. I could link you to one or two threads that I was called worse, and guess what I still don't care. Everything in these games has a purpose, every letter means somthing, you just don't understand why iLord might have said that. He was ether A trying to point out that I was the VI, or he might have been wanting to see how I would respond. Just get over it and play the game, plz!

now to read more.
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I
n, don't spell my name out fully, just a joke...
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Post Post #312 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:59 am

Post by ODDin »

McGriddle wrote:I haven't been in any 12+ games and every game I have played (for the most part) is a newbie game, so no, I didn't know that scum increased with number of players. I have been in a 12 person a 9 person and a 7 person game, so I have never had more than 2 scum per game. Besides, how is that scummy? wouldn't that be pro-town that I didn't know how many scum there were in this game?
2 scum in a 12 player game also seems too few, even with no PRs for the town. Care for a link?
Also, understanding the setup is an important part of playing. Different setups call for different strategies and different behaviours.
I'd think it'd be obvious that 2 scum out of 20 players is ridiculous under normal conditions, but then again, you didn't even know what the setup was, you invented one yourself, so you obviously didn't bother to stop and think about it.

And what is being said is not that you didn't know how much scum existed the game. On the contrary, what is being said is that you did know how much scum existed in the game, namely 2, and you could only know so by being one of them.


Also, some general questions, now that I'm thinking about the setup:
1) Has anyone played a cult game before? Any general tips and advice?
2) The way I understand it, if the zombies target a vanilla, he becomes a zombie, but if the zombies target a PR, the PR simply dies. So, it's not clear whether we want the zombies to target VTs or PRs - on one hand, we lose a PR, on the other, we don't gain another zombie. I guess it depends on the strength of the PR. I'm not really sure what this means, strategically. Should this change the circumstances under which PRs claim and such?
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Post Post #313 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:21 am

Post by Kmd4390 »

McGriddle wrote: What? Vote You because I think the other guy is town... makes sense
I think Tate is town. I also think there is a good chance that you are scum.
manho wrote: i think KMD is a bit strange here. i don't know if it is his playstyle as i've only played with him for a game(?), which is Plum's Dodgeball again, where i was scum-buddy with CD and he was caught by KMD in day 1 and i killed KMD night 1. maybe he has caught the scum again in this game.
Yeah, I was on a bit of an early Day 1 tear in the games I was playing around that time. Caught CooL in that game and Netopalis from his first post in another. Too bad I couldn't do something similar here.

Reck is still my top suspect by the way.

------------------------

ODDin, I very rarely FoS. If I have a second suspect, I'll state that I'm willing to vote them. You can probably only find about 5 times I have EVER FoS'd anyone and some of those were in the RVS.
FoS ODDin


-----------------------

Also, Mcgrid asking what a cult is has me second guessing that vote. If he was scum, he'd know, right?

Unvote

CooL wrote:I as I am reading have found some things out. How many times has KMD chainged his vote? Over 4 for sure! I have never seen him so wishy-washy.
I voted Reck. I changed it to evilsnail sarcastically. I voted Mcgrid and am about to go back to Reck I think. Nothing wishy washy though because I didn't change my opinion on Reck when I voted Mcgrid. Heh, if anything, I'm tunneling on Reck. I'm trying not to, but no one else stands out as scummy.

------------------

ODDin, I've played some cult games. Play like normal Day 1. After that, watch for changes in people's play.

-------------------

Vote Reck
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Post Post #314 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:33 am

Post by ODDin »

Kmd4390 wrote:ODDin, I very rarely FoS. If I have a second suspect, I'll state that I'm willing to vote them. You can probably only find about 5 times I have EVER FoS'd anyone and some of those were in the RVS.
FoS ODDin
Hmm. Well, this makes some more sense, then. Let's move back to zazie.
unvote, vote: ZazieR


Also, the FoS on me is sarcastic, I take it? Or are there actual reasons behind that somewhere?
Kmd4390 wrote: Also, Mcgrid asking what a cult is has me second guessing that vote. If he was scum, he'd know, right?
Not necessarily. "Cult" is a general term, while the scum PMs are likely written with game flavour - zombie lords instead of cult leaders, I guess, eating brains, turning people into zombies etc. It would make sense that the word "cult" wouldn't actually be mentioned in the scum PM, even if all the relevant mechanics were described.
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Post Post #315 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:44 am

Post by Kmd4390 »

Yeah, it's sarcastic/ironic. :P

Hmm. I see your point about the cult...

Also, about the 2 scum debate, that's a number that makes sense in a cult game. Too many makes it unbalanced and just one leaves the chance that they are lynched Day 1.
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Post Post #316 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:06 am

Post by ODDin »

As a guess, yes, but it also depends on the town PRs and the specific mechanics. 3 scum and maybe even 4 scum could make sense.

But there are 2 options, the way I see it:
1) McG is scum. He doesn't know what a cult is because it wasn't mentioned in his PM, but he knows there are 2 scum for a fact - and makes a slip.
2) McG is town. He doesn't know what a cult is, and since the cult mechanics are unlikely to be discussed in a town PM, he doesn't unerstand that scum convert people into scum. He assumes there are 2 scum. He doesn't stop to consider how ridiculous it is, seeing that in this scenario he doesn't understand the cult mechanics involved.

Sadly, scenario 2 is also possible - if he didn't bother to understand the setup, I guess he could've not bothered to think about it either.
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Post Post #317 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:23 am

Post by evilsnail »

At this point, I think scenario 2 is more likely. Especially given that McGriddle's first response was to think that he was wrong about there being two scum because of the size of the game. If it truly was a scum slip, I don't think he would have responded like that.
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Post Post #318 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:36 am

Post by wolframnhart »

More then likely, option two is the scenario here, I took his "I have a good idea already who my 2 scum are" as he has two suspects right now.

McGriddle, care to enlighten us?
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Post Post #319 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:52 am

Post by Kmd4390 »

ODDin, it's not uncommon for people who play mostly newbie games to always assume two scum. Either way, I very rarely believe in "slips", so I don't think Mcgrid slipped.
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Post Post #320 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:55 am

Post by farside22 »

The I'm behind and busy vote count:

Reckoner (2) bv310, Kmd
tatetothetot (3) evilsnail, ZazieR, Wolframnhart
MrSuave (1) xRECKONERx,
Wolframnhart (1) CooLDoG
Starbuck (1) CryMeARiver
Cooldog (1) Starbuck
ODDin (1) Diamondilium
Kmd4390 (1) McGriddle
Diamond (1) iLord
McGriddle (3) Morph, Yosarian2, manho
Morph (1) Albert B. Rampage
Zazie (1) ODDin


vote voting:
MrSuave
WRP_Beater
tatetothetot

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Post Post #321 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:29 am

Post by manho »

i will give McGriddle a newbie pass for now, as he really seems to be new to everything.

unvote, vote: tate
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Post Post #322 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:57 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

ODDin wrote: Also, some general questions, now that I'm thinking about the setup:
1) Has anyone played a cult game before? Any general tips and advice?
Well, if the cult works in a "cult recruiter" kind of way, then the key thing is finding people who are cult on day 1, and worry about the recruits later (or else vig them).

I'm not sure it does, though; I don't know what the cult mechanism is going to be this game.
2) The way I understand it, if the zombies target a vanilla, he becomes a zombie, but if the zombies target a PR, the PR simply dies. So, it's not clear whether we want the zombies to target VTs or PRs - on one hand, we lose a PR, on the other, we don't gain another zombie. I guess it depends on the strength of the PR. I'm not really sure what this means, strategically. Should this change the circumstances under which PRs claim and such?
Eh. If it's more valuable for a scum to hit a power role and get rid of it, they will; if it's more valuable for a scum to recruit a VT, they'll do that. Either way, we don't want anyone to claim unnecesarally, becuase it just helps the scum.
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Post Post #323 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:24 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

This McGriddle wagon is godawful. Please, join me on the Suave wagon ladies and gents.
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Post Post #324 (ISO) » Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:27 am

Post by wolframnhart »

Pfftt my tate wagon is infinitely better then your Suave wagon :P
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