Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[Skill006]

...This is a pretty crappy position to be in. I guess I'm the only one to blame for that, since I didn't vote/input sooner.

I'm weakly confident that fuzzy is scum. However, as Zorblag mentioned, fuzzy is an IC, yet he has done nothing in the way of scumhunting.

@fuzzy: you said you only say things when they are worthwhile. Has there really been that little to say? Like you said here:

...but that doesn't mean that there is nothing you can do to facilitate discussion. Ask people questions (pertinent ones), re-read things that have been said and think to yourself, why would town say this and why would scum say this and which is more likely to be the case for a particular person. Not having anything to talk about should rarely be an excuse...

You know how to do it, and there is a good chunk of discussion to go through to ask questions, analyze, and use to scum hunt/pressure, but you're not doing any of that (except for the analyzing part). Why?

In fact, the more I think about it, the scummier fuzzy seems. By telling jmurph she needs to create discussion, and not do anything about it himself, makes it seem like he wants other people to post around and get the game going while he sits on the sidelines.

You know what, I think I could hammer fuzzy. Not before he answers those questions, but once he does, depending on how he responds, I could probably hammer.

So, there's my stance...Hopefully I will also be readily available throughout today.

[fuzzylightning]

@ Zorblag: Alright, my basis for the lynching Apathy even if he had declared a town power role was because of his inactivity. His posts seemed too far apart for him to guaranteed be around at night. Not only that, but there is no guarantee that he would have been very beneficial in his investigations if he had been the cop because he didn't look at anyone outside of RF and the back and forth with PD, two people that the rest of the town believes are town. Sure, there is a chance that he could have gotten lucky with his investigation or a protect had he been doc, but I felt that the way he was playing during the day was more detrimental to the town. My playstyle is more analytical then anything, and on Day 1 it might not be as good, but when I am able to analyze prior actions with the knowledge of a flip, I am more able to help the town with my views.

@ Skill: As I just said, I am an analytical player. If I see something scummy, I generally catalog it and use it later on when I am ready to build a case on someone. Normally that doesn't happen much on Day 1, because I look back on previous actions and how people interacted with others. In the beginning I was asking questions of every player and trying to get discussion going in that way, so saying that I did nothing to facilitate discussion is false, but could I have done more, probably. I am just not always the best player Day 1.

[PaltryExcuse]

4 Hrs.

We're getting disturbingly close to deadline.

[Zorblag]

@PaltryExcuse, I really am going to be around to hammer and I am aware of the deadline. I'd particularly like it if Phaen showed up to answer the question I asked her before the day ended though.

@fuzzylightning, do you consider an innocent result from a cop night one not to be useful? Even if the rest of the town in general feels that a player is town does that make them a worse investigation than others? Did you really find that Apathy wasn't paying attention to anyone other than RayFrost and PranaDevil because I can see him giving scum lists that include others at a couple spot (including towards the end of his time here)?

On another note, if you primarily attempt to analyze what others do on day one what's your plan if there isn't much action and content to analyze isn't being generated? If you've got some backup plan is there any good reason not to be using it anyhow if others are providing content to analyze?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[PranaDevil]

@PranaDevil, do you know if you did anything in the game thread to indicate that you were thinking that scum could day talk in this game? I don't recall seeing any such indications but I could easily have missed them.

It's possible I didn't say it, short of going through my posts with a fine tooth comb I doubt I'd notice if I had either as it would have been just a throw away line. Or just agreeing with the previous comment about it perhaps. Either way I'm not well enough (gained a damned cold... and I'm meant to be helping my Mum paint her new place later today... hooray)

I also have an additional thing to point out from this game regarding observations for this game in particular. I disagree with the assertion that town should always play a completely transparent game (I think you made it though it might have been someone else.) Sometimes it's a good idea for members of the town to be slightly deceptive about what their beliefs about the state of the game are to try to get the scum to make sub-optimal choices during the night. Games in which I've done this as town include (though aren't limited to): Newbie Game 845 where I tried to indicate that I had more things to say the next day than I atually did in the hopes that I would be night killed to keep me quiet and Newbie Game 871 where I intentionally overstated the strength of my case on Yankee to make it more likely that he would night kill me if he were scum.

Town shouldn't lie about their roles but that doesn't mean that they should make all of their thoughts perfectly clear. Scum make decisions for night kills and roleblocks based at least in part on what they think the towns opinions are. Being deceptive about that can be helpful so long as it's done in a way which doesn't have any serious danger of hurting the town in the process as well. Mafia is a game of deception and that's not just limited to the scum roles.

Now, this is something that I did want to point out. I can understand not wanting to give everything to the scum, however if someone was making out they had more information to give the next day... I would be wondering why they weren't sharing it that day (at least D1, I can accept that D2 or 3 it could be seen as "I'm the cop, and have some information, but I want to see if my suspicions are correct").

As for deliberately overstating a case... well if the person you're overstating it on is town, they'll think you're scum, there's the possibility that other town will see you blowing up a case beyond what it is (Ray's had some heat for this from what I can remember), which could get you lynched, and I don't really see a benefit in it.

Now, there will be times when making things obvious isn't a great strategy, we, as town, don't need to know where the cop is, and we don't need to know where the doc is, so the worst thing either could say (at least in a game like this) is any kind of hint to their play, but that doesn't mean we should deliberately withold information from the rest of town if we see something. If I've spotted something that would help others make a decision, I feel it's only right I should state it. Otherwise town could lynch others, only to then come to find that the scum was the person I was looking at heavier than them, and my opinion of it could have made people aware of it.

[fuzzylightning]

Most of it was at the end of his time, where he was facing a lynch and there wasn't much that he could do about his fate, without getting replaced. And even if there isn't a lot of content, there is always a bandwagon or two that can be looked at. That is what I generally analyze. In my experience, there has always been at least 1 scum on every Townie lynch Day 1.

[Zorblag]

@PranaDevil, setting up an expectation that I've got interesting thoughts on a topic that I can share the next day when in fact I've just got a mundane observation or two is highly unlikely to cause the town any harm whereas it's got a chance to give the scum a reason to worry and perhaps kill me to keep me quiet (that really only works if I've shown that I do have interesting things to say from time to time and that I'm willing to defer saying them when I think it will be to the town's advantage to not share all my thoughts right away.) In the case of the game I linked to where I was doing that it didn't work out in that I didn't draw the night kill but the town wasn't harmed either.

Deliberately overstating the strength of my case in the other game was useful. It didn't particularly cause the person I made the attack on to suspect me any more than he had already (I replaced into a spot that he had already found scummy and he didn't care for my method of speculation in general) but it did make me easily his most vocal opponent. When I wasn't killed during the night it was a pretty good indication that he wasn't actually scum (as he really couldn't afford to keep me alive with any of the other players if he was.) That was an important factor in determining who the actual scum was that game.

Being deceptive as town is seldom completely without risk but there are times when the potential reward makes it worthwhile beyond simply ways that relate to power roles. That was my main point.

@fuzzylightning, do you have anything else you'd like to share before I hammer? I'm ready at this point but I want to give you a chance for any last words you'd like to get in. I'll probably be interested in talking about your overall day one strategy in the post game but that conversation isn't hugely relevant just now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[fuzzylightning]

I have nothing else to add that I haven't already said. Feel free to drop the hammer.

Good luck town. Look closely at this wagon.

[Zorblag]

Vote: fuzzylightning

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Kison]

Day One's Final Vote Count

fuzzylightning (

5

) : jammer, jmurph3, PaltryExcuse, PranaDevil, Zorblag
Zorblag (

3

) : Phaen, RayFrost, fuzzylightning

Not Voting (

1

) : Skill006

With

9

alive,

5

votes were required to lynch.

[Kison]

And so, the other eight members of the lynch squad led today's victim, fuzzylightning, down to the tree in the local courtyard. Fuzzylightning maintained an aura of calmness until the stool was kicked from under him. And then he squirmed. They always do!


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... but was he scum??? ...
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fuzzylightning, Vanilla Townie, has been lynched on Day One.

It is now Night One.

Night's deadline is

72

hours from now. If you have a night action, you must send it in to me(via PM) by then.[/area]

[Kison]

Dawn came all too quickly after the failed attempt at lynching a member of the Mafia the prior day, and with it, another opportunity to make a turn of events. Everyone headed straight away for the same location as the day before. It wasn't exactly a friendly gathering, but it was a gathering nonetheless.

Unfortunately

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PaltryExcuse, the Vanilla Townie, has been killed during Night One.

It is now Day Two.

With

7

alive, it will take

4

votes to lynch.[/area]

[PaltryExcuse]

BALLS! I wanted to keep playing today.

Go town, and sorry fuzzy.

Thanks for modding Kison! Awesome pictures.

[PranaDevil]

Okay, so we've lynched fuzzy wrongly, and PE's been NK'd, the negative of course is we've just lost two town. The plus of course is we've not lost any PR's (If we have any), and our options are less.

We also appear to have had no posts all day so far. Where is everyone?

I'm going to have a look over stuff a bit later, but I apologize to all if I fail to get a post up before tomorrow, spent the day moving all my Mum's furniture and have a killer cold to boot, so chances are lots of rest will be the order of the day for today and tomorrow. But will try taking time out to have a little (well, big) review of everything.

[jmurph3]

We also appear to have had no posts all day so far. Where is everyone?

I'm going to have a look over stuff a bit later, but I apologize to all if I fail to get a post up before tomorrow, spent the day moving all my Mum's furniture and have a killer cold to boot, so chances are lots of rest will be the order of the day for today and tomorrow. But will try taking time out to have a little (well, big) review of everything.

I think chances are that everyone's doing the same thing (at least I know I am). Reviewing everything from D1 and working things out in my head. Also, it's midterms for me, so I might be a bit spotty with when I'm on.

[Skill006]

Love the pics
It looks more like paltry got run over by a car, as opposed to being shot XD

Ok, notice:

Day One's Final Vote Count

fuzzylightning ( 5 ) : jammer, jmurph3, PaltryExcuse,

PranaDevil

, Zorblag
Zorblag ( 3 ) : Phaen, RayFrost, fuzzylightning

Not Voting ( 1 ) : Skill006

With 9 alive, 5 votes were required to lynch.

And then here:

Day One: Vote Count

Apathy ( 4 ) : Phaen, RayFrost, fuzzylightning,

PranaDevil

fuzzylightning ( 2 ) : jammer, jmurph3
jmurph3 ( 1 ) : PaltryExcuse
RayFrost ( 1 ) : Apathy

Not Voting ( 1 ) : Skill006

With 9 alive, it will take 5 votes to lynch.

Opportunistic much?

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Questions, now that it is day 2:

@pranadevil: why did you feel you should unvote apathy to switch to fuzzy? (By the way, I know you unvoted zorblag because he just replaced in, my question asks why you thought fuzzy was more worth lynching).

@phaen: who else is suspicious besides zorblag? I saw this:

My top scum suspicions are

1) Apathy/Troll
2) jmurph
3) Skill

But I don’t know if it has changed, and you never really said much about me or jmurph.

@jammer:

Wishy washy ness with redbox, skill and fuzzy.

What's apathy's "wishy-washiness" on the three of us?

@zorblag: do you think anyone on

your

wagon was scum?

[RayFrost]

I was up all night doing a case study...
sooo....

tired...

x.x

[PranaDevil]

Love the pics
It looks more like paltry got run over by a car, as opposed to being shot XD

Ok, notice:

Day One's Final Vote Count

fuzzylightning ( 5 ) : jammer, jmurph3, PaltryExcuse,

PranaDevil

, Zorblag
Zorblag ( 3 ) : Phaen, RayFrost, fuzzylightning

Not Voting ( 1 ) : Skill006

With 9 alive, 5 votes were required to lynch.

And then here:

Day One: Vote Count

Apathy ( 4 ) : Phaen, RayFrost, fuzzylightning,

PranaDevil

fuzzylightning ( 2 ) : jammer, jmurph3
jmurph3 ( 1 ) : PaltryExcuse
RayFrost ( 1 ) : Apathy

Not Voting ( 1 ) : Skill006

With 9 alive, it will take 5 votes to lynch.

Opportunistic much?

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Questions, now that it is day 2:

@pranadevil: why did you feel you should unvote apathy to switch to fuzzy? (By the way, I know you unvoted zorblag because he just replaced in, my question asks why you thought fuzzy was more worth lynching).

@phaen: who else is suspicious besides zorblag? I saw this:

My top scum suspicions are

1) Apathy/Troll
2) jmurph
3) Skill

But I don’t know if it has changed, and you never really said much about me or jmurph.

@jammer:

Wishy washy ness with redbox, skill and fuzzy.

What's apathy's "wishy-washiness" on the three of us?

@zorblag: do you think anyone on

your

wagon was scum?

Opportunistic? I think you'll find the reason I was late on the fuzzy wagon is I was still pushing for the Apathy one until Zorblag came in, and gave a reason.

You'll also find I had suspicions about both players, and therefore, while I still would have "preferred" the Apathy lynch, when Zorblag entered in I felt the better option was to go with my second hunch, just in case it was based off of Apathy's playing as opposed to the role (as Zorblag came in and appeared to be actively scum hunting, and yes, it's possible it was a front, but we had sweet little time to make that judgement call, I personally feel a replacement that late in a day is a bad idea when town is pretty much all set for the lynch of said player anyway).

As it is, I still have my suspicions about Zorblag through earlier postings, I still have strong suspicions about you too Skill, which I have explained earlier. Through the lack of voting, in fact... the fact you avoided voting almost entirely in the first day, only to return with "so do you think people on the wagons were scummy?" Leads me to believe that perhaps you are trying to keep people suspicious in the wrong directions.

vote Skill006

[RayFrost]

...This is a pretty crappy position to be in. I guess I'm the only one to blame for that, since I didn't vote/input sooner.

I'm weakly confident

that fuzzy is scum. However, as Zorblag mentioned, fuzzy is an IC, yet he has done nothing in the way of scumhunting.

@fuzzy: you said you only say things when they are worthwhile. Has there really been that little to say? Like you said here:

...but that doesn't mean that there is nothing you can do to facilitate discussion. Ask people questions (pertinent ones), re-read things that have been said and think to yourself, why would town say this and why would scum say this and which is more likely to be the case for a particular person. Not having anything to talk about should rarely be an excuse...

You know how to do it, and there is a good chunk of discussion to go through to ask questions, analyze, and use to scum hunt/pressure, but you're not doing any of that (except for the analyzing part). Why?

In fact, the more I think about it, the scummier fuzzy seems. By telling jmurph she needs to create discussion, and not do anything about it himself, makes it seem like he wants other people to post around and get the game going while he sits on the sidelines.

You know what, I think I could hammer fuzzy.

Not before he answers those questions, but once he does, depending on how he responds, I could probably hammer.

So, there's my stance...Hopefully I will also be readily available throughout today.

lol.

anyway, the choosing to not hammer despite your confidence seems like a stall tactic, especially considering the closeness of deadline.

just sayin'

anyway, I think it's most likely that jmurph or jammer, out of everybody on that lynch, is the scum.

Unless it's Zorb.

But Zorb is too swass to lynch.

Lynching him would halve the swass:not-swass ratio of this game.

[jmurph3]

anyway, I think it's most likely that jmurph or jammer, out of everybody on that lynch, is the scum.

Unless it's Zorb.

But Zorb is too swass to lynch.

Lynching him would halve the swass:not-swass ratio of this game.

Just out of curiosity, what is "swass"?

[Zorblag]

So now I've got a bit of time to actually look over this game in more depth as well as a couple extra pieces of information (fuzzylightning and PaltryExcuse were town.) I'm going to go back and look over everyone in isolation and see what I think about them after a re-read. I'm not going to be doing that tonight though; it'll be tomorrow. Tonight I grade exams.

@Skill006, just from normal scum tactics and the distribution it's fairly likely that there was one scum on my wagon. I'd expect one to be on the mislynch when it happened and one to be elsewhere. It's possible that you would be the one off the wagon but just based on numbers it's more likely they were on me (especially if you're throwing PranaDevil in as one who was on my wagon.) Of course that rule isn't anything like hard and fast so I should have a more satisfying answer tomorrow.

@Phaen, the day ended yesterday before you had a chance to answer this line of questions but I'm still pretty interested in what your thought process was so I'd still like to hear what you've got to say about it:

@Phaen, given that you have a town reading on fuzzylightning now, how do you think that fuzzylightning's behavior should be different if he was scum? You say that you've seen him play this way as town before so I'm willing to accept that you have an expectation for his town play. Is there any reason that you think he wouldn't do about the same thing day one if he were scum? Is there some way his play benefits the town that you can see that helps your read?

@jmurph3, you can pick which definition of swass RayFrost has in mind. I'll just say that although Sir Mix-a-Lot's first album doesn't hold up well as a serious entry in the hip-hop genre but it's still a lot of fun to pull out and listen to from time to time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[PranaDevil]

What I'm noticing so far is that Skill avoided anything that might seem to be a definite lynch, hanging right back as if to appear town, but also didn't really seem to do much, along with obviously trying to twist things up above.

I also note that Zorblag took over the Apathy spot, and swiftly converted people over to the fuzzy vote instead, which doesn't necessarily mean he's scum (as town shouldn't just shrug and accept being lynched anyway), but does seem strange that the person he pushed heavily for was the other one most likely to get lynched that day outside of his own slot.

So right now those are the directions I would be considering for myself right now. But I would definitely like to hear other people's views.

(oh, and a little off topic, but much as I don't want to get lynched or NK'd, I still kind of want to see what Kison does with Dastardly if I do. I like that little play on stuff, nice work)

[jammer]

Wishy washy ness with redbox, skill and fuzzy.

What's apathy's "wishy-washiness" on the three of us?

Redbox - seems to just be a noob townie, and I believe a lot of the attention being focused his way is more-so attention diversion. I am not more that 80% on this, as his posts since have not shown considerable improvement in the research department, which I would expect from someone who is actively participating and learning.

...
...

@fuzzy - seems to be slightly contradicting himself in some areas, but all in all the information seems to be genuine scumhunting. I dont have a great read, but as for now Im calling this one an inexperienced townie

@skill - Still not too sure. The initial ray/fuzzy vote/unvote was a little strange, and is still lingering with me. There is something in the way she posts that is giving me an uneasy feeling. Seems to be giving us enough but not too much, worth noting.

~~

@RF, you never commented on what you think about fuzzy getting close to a lynch/lynched. What was your opinion about fuzzy and the wagon on him in general?

I agree with Devil about skill.
Apart from that I also don't like the cases she got on me. It's like she's throwing random accusations at me and hopes it sticks.

[RayFrost]

I didn't like it, hence my lack of

vote: fuzzylightning

[jmurph3]

As it is, I still have my suspicions about Zorblag through earlier postings, I still have strong suspicions about you too Skill, which I have explained earlier. Through the lack of voting, in fact... the fact you avoided voting almost entirely in the first day, only to return with "so do you think people on the wagons were scummy?" Leads me to believe that perhaps you are trying to keep people suspicious in the wrong directions.

vote Skill006

Prana, if you get a chance, can you possibly repost/link to some of your earlier case on Skill? Sorry for being a pain, but this is not a good week for me, and it will enable me to participate a little easier/quicker.