Mini 925: Umineko No Naku Koro Ni Mafia: GAME OVER!

[RayFrost]

2) Since I managed to draw a role that should claim Day 1, I should probably do that now.

I'm a Bomb. When I am killed or RFGed, the killer (hammer vote if lynched) dies at the beginning of the next day.

So, dearest Mafiosos: Assuming that we don't use my ability as a second lynch, you're kinda screwed. Either you let me survive to endgame and screw you over during massclaim or you kill me and lose one of your members. Your choice!

3) RayFrost, are you this silly at the beginning of the game in EVERY game you play? (I'd total read, but search seems to be down at the moment.) If yes, please send links. If not, please tell me why you're being silly right now.

<no random vote>

Needs moar flavor supportz

[UncertainKitten]

The Eighth "Haze" Vote Count

"Pukukukuku, would you like some cookies?"

Mod Note: Bout time you all made it to page 9. Lurkers.

0. UncertainKitten (2): Leech, Snow_Bunny
1. Cobalt (1): CSL
2. RayFrost (0)
3. StrangerCoug (1): Kairyuu
4. DisCode (0)
5. Snow_Bunny (1): Tarhalindur
6. Tarhalindur (1): Cobalt
7. Kairyuu (0)
8. mangus_orion (0)
9. Leech (0)
10. TheLonging (0)
11. NavyCherub (2): DisCode, RayFrost
12. CSL (0)


Not Voting (4): TheLonging, StrangerCoug, Navy Cherub, mangus_orion

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is in 6 days at 11 AM EST, Friday, March 5th

[Tarhalindur]

Regardless, I'll be unvoting you now, Snow_Bunny just claimed scum:

I still think lynching the mod is a good idea, but right now I'm more interested in how the Navy's wagons develops. I'm finding him a bit scummy, but I think it's a bit early to be lynching someone. Also, I want to hear from that

false

claim as well.

Also, I would like to hear what Tar knows about the mod, if that isn't asking for much.

Utterly noncommittal (refuses to take any stand... and yet insinuates that NavyCherub is scum, oh dear mother of gods is this a scumtell), blatant fishing, general "Why hasn't this player been run up for this post alone?" factor.

Unvote, Vote: Snow_Bunny

-Utterly noncommittal? I have a stance (I want to lynch the mod). Navy is scummy, but not enough to draw me from my current stance. At least IO have a stance, not like others that say "I think it's a good idea, but I won't vote for now." Talk about hyprocrite.

Your wording makes it clear that you think NavyCherub is scum (see the falseclaim comment), yet you refuse to vote for him or even make it clear that you'll vote for him in the future. That's a GIANT scumtell, nearly lynchworthy on its own.

-Blatant fishing?

I'm sorry, but I'm just asking for info about if lynching the mod is a good idea. I never asked for your role, rolename, special abilities, etc, etc.

I just want to know if you know something about lynching the mod being a bad idea. I don't know about you, but if I knew something that would be bad for town, I would post it asap. On the other hand, you posted something that would be bad for

scum

. So, yeah.

The problem with your argument is that asking for elaboration on lynching the Mod is BY NECESSITY asking for much more than that.

(I really find your claim as a Bomb to be not that useful for town. You just warned scum, and thus, setup a possible protection for your own lynch.)

By claiming, I allow my ability to be used as a second lynch if necessary (via pseudovoting to force a player to hammer me and outright lynching any player who refuses to do so). If we don't use me as a second lynch, I also put the scum in the position of choosing whether they want to deal with me breaking the setup if/when we massclaim or losing a member to get rid of me. Both seem like pretty good ideas to me.

Tar...oh, dearest Tar. You've reviewed my setups before. Do you REALLY think this game is breakable? Really ^-^? I'll warn you Kinetic reviewed it .

-

"general "Why hasn't this player been run up for this post alone?" factor."

...Eh?

It's exactly what it says on the tin. The quoted post reads so scummily to me that I'm surprised there's not a huge wagon on you for it.

So, Tar, it seems you are trying to build something based on sand.

Bullshit - I trust in my intuitive read that you're scum. You're trying to dig information out of me that I would have already revealed if I could do so without claiming further. You sat on the fence about NavyCherub in such a way that I am nearly certain comes from a scumbag.

And fact, it seems that you are the one being noncommittal to this game. You claim to have a scum-hurting role (that I still can't see why would you claim it),

Once again, one valid reaction to a bomb claim is to use it as a second lynch. That's why I claimed. (If I was a SuperSaint instead, I would have insisted on my own lynch - the fact that my role forces the scum to decide between two losing propositions if left alive is the only reason I've been indecisive about optimal play.

claim to have info about the mod (that you prefer not to share),

No, I wouldn't call it "preferring" not to share at all. The words you're looking for are "absolutely refuse to share unless forced to fullclaim, possibly even then - and I won't explain why until asked to fullclaim".

and claim that you need time to puzzle out your role before you can vote (well, that was before, but still).

No, I didn't need time to puzzle out my role - but rather to figure out whether forcing my own lynch D1 was optimal play or not. (Still not sure on that, btw.)

Seems to me that you are active lurking. Your vote against Navy seemed more like an easy jump on a forming wagon than anything else. Your vote against me is just based on what? Me asking your information?

Given what you're effectively asking me for and the way in which you asked for it, I think fishing is an EXTREMELY appropriate description of your previous post. Moreover, you outright stated that you were "

Moreover, you made it clear that you thought NavyCherub was scum (via that "

false

claim" comment of yours, yet didn't vote him or really explain why you weren't voting him. Moreover, you commented that "I'm more interested in how the Navy's wagons develops" - watching to see how a wagon develops is EXTREMELY characteristic scum behavior, especially when you're effectively pushing along the wagon (by commenting on how you think NavyCherub is scummy and even insinuating that whatever he claimed would be a falseclaim) but not voting.

Combine those two problems, and I find it very, very difficult to believe you're town.

On my own NavyCherub vote - he claimed that the reason for his vote was "reaction testing". That's enough of a scumtell to be voteworthy, especially in the early game (though global roleblock, if proven, means he's probably town after all).

[quote[This leads me to believe that there's something on that info you don't want town to know, and you shield yourself with such weak attacks as "blatant rolefishing" when obviously that wasn't the point of my request.[/quote]

Well, there's something in that info that I think SOMEBODY shouldn't know, I'll give you that.

So, in general:
-Active lurking ("I'll explain once I've puzzled that out. " "Let me think over how best to deal with that claim")

No, that's just explaining that I'm not certain that I've figured out the best course of option given what I know (I'm still not sure whether or not forcing my own lynch D1 is optimal, nor am I sure that forcing NavyCherub to global roleblock N1 on pain on lynch D2 if he doesn't is optimal).

-Noncomittal and lack of a real stance

I think you're scum, I thought NavyCherub was scum until he fullclaimed and claimed a provable ability that I think likely comes from a townie, I think the Mod is likely neutral if she has a win condition but that killing her (especially lynching her) may have unexpected consequences, I haven't thought enough about the NavyCherub wagon (one of {Cobalt/magnus_orion} is probably your scumbuddy, given the speed of the fourth and fifth votes), and there's about half a dozen players in the game who I don't have a firm read on yet.

The first two, at least, should have been evident to you when you made this post.

I fail to see how these comprise being "noncommittal" and not having a "real stance".

-Claimed a role that, imo, would have been better stayed unclaimed, first, as it would have hurt mafia more, and second, as it raises a small but present protection in case of a lynch against himself (well, that's part my perception, but still).

Two problems with not claiming Bomb immediately:

1) Failing to claim Bomb means that you're denying the rest of the Town the opportunity to use you as a second lynch.
2) Since letting me survive to massclaim tends to let me rip apart scumteams, this puts them in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation... and increases my chances of surviving long enough to actually break the setup in half.

-You supposedly hold information that would help town regarding the issue of lynching the mod but you don't care to share it.

Misrep - I know that sharing exactly what I know on the Mod would be a very, very stupid idea.

-Kind of hypocrital attack against me, based on a subversion of the facts (really? Blatant fishing? That's all you could come up with?),

Pot, meet kettle - the real crux of my case is that your behavior towards the NavyCherub wagon is classic scum behavior, and you know it.

also increases my suspicious based on the information he holds about the mod.

So, in conclusion, Tar is really scummy. I still think lynching the mod is a better option, though. And thus, my vote remains as it is, but not without first:

FoS: Tar

I wouldn't mind a Tar lynch at all, but I really prefer a mod lynch first.

Just because of the points brought before, this level of reasoning is possible for Snow_Bunny. What do you think, everyone?

I think you're a damn scumbag for reasons listed above and want you dead (either through lynching or through having you hammer me).

[Tarhalindur]

2) Since I managed to draw a role that should claim Day 1, I should probably do that now.

I'm a Bomb. When I am killed or RFGed, the killer (hammer vote if lynched) dies at the beginning of the next day.

So, dearest Mafiosos: Assuming that we don't use my ability as a second lynch, you're kinda screwed. Either you let me survive to endgame and screw you over during massclaim or you kill me and lose one of your members. Your choice!

3) RayFrost, are you this silly at the beginning of the game in EVERY game you play? (I'd total read, but search seems to be down at the moment.) If yes, please send links. If not, please tell me why you're being silly right now.

<no random vote>

Needs moar flavor supportz

No, no I really don't think it does.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm sorry my head's still not in this. I'll probably just roll with it for the most part since that's what I do anyway.

I'm still unhappy with Tarhalindur, but a Mafia bomb seems a bit swingy to me. I can see Mafia supersaint, though. I might want to look into him a little more to see if Tar being a supersaint can be substantiated.

I said in my second post that I'm unhappy with TheLonging, and looking at him in ISO, I really don't think he's been scumhunting all that much. He's been in the game since it started and I expect him to have an idea of scum right now.

Vote: TheLonging

[Kairyuu]

Now that I'm done spending nearly 5 hours on role PMs, I can come here and say that SC is definitely scum, and that we should lynch him.

[magnus_orion]

SC, why should tar even have to be a bomb/supersaint if he were mafia? All the ways to confirm those roles involve killing him, so its not like he'd have to make sure it was clear if he were lying or not.

Kai, why is SC scum?

[Kairyuu]

Because Col.Cathart was scum, and SC replaced him.

[Leech]

1) Failing to claim Bomb means that you're denying the rest of the Town the opportunity to use you as a second lynch.

Claiming bomb, as town, prevents the scum from losing a member at night. If you can take scum with you when you tie, having them use a night kill on you resulting in a scum death is just as good, correct? The idea you are proposing is that we should believe that you are town, and then eventually lynch someone we believe is town while trying to make sure that scum hammers. Realistically we'd probably end up with a double-town death due to scum refusing to hammer, and getting on the wagon early.

You interrupted the natural flow of things by claiming bomb so early. Instead of a "double lynch" which probably wouldn't even work, if you are town you just made it so scum wouldn't kill you to prevent death. You could have said nothing, and potentially killed scum in the night, which I feel would be more beneficial.

Since letting me survive to massclaim tends to let me rip apart scumteams, this puts them in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation... and increases my chances of surviving long enough to actually break the setup in half.

How does that let you rip apart scumteams? If anything you just broadcasted to the entire scum team "Hey if you want to lynch me, bandwagon early so you get two town for the price of one."

In the end, you told scum not to hammer you or kill you in the night. At the same time, you indirectly told the entire town not to hammer you as well. What you're writing seems to be an intelligent form of scare tactics.

[Tarhalindur]

1) Failing to claim Bomb means that you're denying the rest of the Town the opportunity to use you as a second lynch.

Claiming bomb, as town, prevents the scum from losing a member at night. If you can take scum with you when you tie, having them use a night kill on you resulting in a scum death is just as good, correct? The idea you are proposing is that we should believe that you are town, and then eventually lynch someone we believe is town while trying to make sure that scum hammers. Realistically we'd probably end up with a double-town death due to scum refusing to hammer, and getting on the wagon early.

You interrupted the natural flow of things by claiming bomb so early. Instead of a "double lynch" which probably wouldn't even work, if you are town you just made it so scum wouldn't kill you to prevent death. You could have said nothing, and potentially killed scum in the night, which I feel would be more beneficial.

Since letting me survive to massclaim tends to let me rip apart scumteams, this puts them in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation... and increases my chances of surviving long enough to actually break the setup in half.

How does that let you rip apart scumteams? If anything you just broadcasted to the entire scum team "Hey if you want to lynch me, bandwagon early so you get two town for the price of one."

In the end, you told scum not to hammer you or kill you in the night. At the same time, you indirectly told the entire town not to hammer you as well. What you're writing seems to be an intelligent form of scare tactics.

1) Leech, I'd like you to read Mafia 75, Medieval Mafia, Mind Screw Gaiden (Mini 726), Inventor Mafia (Mini 778), and Xylthixlm's Anime Bastard Chaos. (I might be forgetting a few games, but those should be enough to get the general picture.) In particular, pay attention to the last three, which are theme-heavy games with few vanillas (much like I expect these games to be).

In all these games, I managed to break the setup in half with a massclaim (with help from a foolish Mafioso in XABC, but the point still stands). I fully expect, should I survive until it's time to massclaim, to be able to do so here as well.

As an aside, my setup-breaking tendencies are the only reason I didn't immediately call for a D1 Tarhalindur lynch... because if/when it becomes time to massclaim, I'm the last person the scum (who know I'm not scum) want alive. Lynching me today (with the hammer vote option described below) still isn't a bad option - just not necessarily as good as letting me get to massclaim.

2) Leech, have you ever dealt with a SuperSaint before?

I'm firmly of the opinion that the correct play for a SuperSaint - and, by extension, a Bomb - is to claim D1 so that he or she can serve as an extra lynch. (SuperSaints should always be the D1 lynch, Bombs don't have to be lynched until later.)

When you're dealing with a SuperSaint, the correct protocol is the use the SuperSaint kill as an extra lynch. First, you run the SuperSaint up to L-1, then you pseudovote to determine which player hammers the SuperSaint. If that player refuses to hammer, he or she is instead lynched normally and the process repeats itself the next day.

By claiming, I have made it clear to the rest of the Town that we have this option. We should probably use it at least one day before LyLo would otherwise occur (presumably after a massclaim).

[StrangerCoug]

SC, why should tar even have to be a bomb/supersaint if he were mafia? All the ways to confirm those roles involve killing him, so its not like he'd have to make sure it was clear if he were lying or not.

I can't picture scum fakeclaiming something drastically different from their role so early.

Kai, why is SC scum?

Because Col.Cathart was scum, and SC replaced him.

I'm not sure how much this tells magnus_orion anything. You took a post of Col.Cathart's and said it made him scum. You have yet to make any further elaboration on why, and all I can figure out that I personally see as scummy is because he had no reads.

[UncertainKitten]

Far as I can tell all immunities to prods are gone, so I'll be running the prodmobile now

[RayFrost]

I'm not really buying the Tar wagon.

The only thing that bugs me is the lack of flavor.

Other than that, I don't have any real problems with it.

From Tar's PoV, as I understand it, claiming now was a good idea to avoid death, as Tar knows his own alignment.

So him keeping himself alive as town or scum is viable, which makes it a null tell overall, meaning that the attacks on him are bad.

[UncertainKitten]

FIVE of you fuckers.

I had to prod FIVE of you people. Get your asses back in gear and PLAY THE GAME.

/me grumbles something about laziness.

Cobalt, DisCode, NavyCherub, Snow_Bunny, and TheLonging have all been prodded. This is TheLonging's second prod.

[Cobalt]

hm

unvote vote thelonging

[StrangerCoug]

hm

unvote vote thelonging

Care to provide reasoning? I know I said you're playing the way you normally do, but I'm still trying to get into your head here.

[Cobalt]

bad gut vibes
also tarh looks slightly town for some reason

[NavyCherub]

Kai, I would like you to give a little bit more of a case before pushing a lynch with posts like

Because Col.Cathart was scum, and SC replaced him.

One post from someone who clearly did not care about the game does not make scum and does not justify posts like that.

I had to prod FIVE of you people. Get your asses back in gear and PLAY THE GAME.

I still have a couple hours before day 3. D=

Um...did you miss the fact that prods come every FORTY EIGHT hours, not 72?

[StrangerCoug]

bad gut vibes
also tarh looks slightly town for some reason

I'll admit waffling a bit on Tarhalindur, but right now I view him as borderline town also. His preemptive bomb claim is starting to come off more antitown than strictly scummy.

[magnus_orion]

Tar's claim was unhelpful, and anti-town, but it has a motivation behind it, misguided though it may be. Its definitely plausible as a towny thought process, especially if they consider themselves to be a valuable player in end game.

The problem is that its not actually a second lynch, Or anything similar. If he really is a bomb, all he succeeds in doing is getting himself and someone else killed at the same time. That's one lynch, plus one death that will result if implemented that way, of someone who we can't choose.
So if Tar is town, using him as a "second" lynch, would actually just result in killing a townie along with our lynchee. Undesirable in comparison to just the lynchee. Supersaint is the same way. I fail to see the benefit from using it in such a manner unless the supersaint/bomb already is under heavy suspicion, and then we're more likely acting under the assumption that the supersaint/bomb isn't a townie, anyway.

Generally speaking deaths that are guaranteed to be on town are to be discouraged, not advocated for use as a "second lynch"

However, I get the feeling tar is being honest, albeit arrogant, because its a risky claim overall, due to the obvious fallout from the lynch deterrent.

[Kairyuu]

@NC and SC: It's the same tell I caught scum with in Mind Screw 3. If it's a complicated game then scum are more likely than town to waffle about being lost to avoid having to contribute. As Col.Cathart requested replacement I considered backing off, but the fact that SC has continued the trend makes me think I was right.

V/LA all this week (aka until Friday ~midday)

Sucks for me that 3 tests all line up 3 days in a row the week before I get to go home for Spring break.

[Kairyuu]

Also, Tar is obvtown. I've never seen him discuss breaking strats as scum.

[Snow_Bunny]

Will post a good answer later on. I don't have much time now.

Btw, Tar, just for you to know, the falseclaim comment was a joke. And thus, I wasn't sure Navy was scum.

[StrangerCoug]

@NC and SC: It's the same tell I caught scum with in Mind Screw 3. If it's a complicated game then scum are more likely than town to waffle about being lost to avoid having to contribute. As Col.Cathart requested replacement I considered backing off, but the fact that SC has continued the trend makes me think I was right.

Am I misinterpreting the term "waffling" as going back and forth on something? Knowing the kind of mod UncertainKitten is, yes, I expect this to be a complex game. Yes, I went back and forth on Tarhalindur. However, I'm interpreting your statement as saying that I'm going back and forth between having my head and this game and having a full understanding of the entire game. I know one of us is wrong, either in your saying that I'm going back and forth between saying "I'm here" and "I'm lost" or my interpreting you doing so. I am not having a repeat of MtG where I let the game overwhelm me to the point that I get lynched. I'm trying my best in this game with what I can get.

[Cobalt]

hm

unvote vote thelonging

more of this plz