Mini 931: Supreme Court Mafia (Game Over post 682)

[Bub Bidderskins]

EBWOP: *facepalm* I meant Secret Service agent .

[Jack]

EBWOP: *facepalm* I meant Secret Service agent .

Interesting, let's go through it.

Bub votes me for copying and pasting the answers (44)
I explain in (45) and ask him why he thinks it's suspicious in (46)
In (48) I post the explanation for the 2nd time, in response to a direct question
In (69)

At this point Jack is so anti-town that he is unlikely to be scum. No scum in his right mind would openly deny information that could be helpful to the town.

However, until you are willing to explain more as to why you copy and pasted votes and what makes you think there's a CIA-serial killer, then my vote will remain on you.

I'm not likely to be scum, he just wants answers (one of these was answered already, twice in fact. He even says "votes" instead of "answers)

In (91)

The point is that usually when somebody is so blatantly anti-town, then they're probably not scum, because scum isn't that stupid.

I'm voting for Jack to try and get answers.

However, if it comes down to it I'll lynch him, mainly because I don't want it in the end-game if he goes on to ruin it regardless of whether he's scum or not. Also, if you noticed in the game above, all of the scum (including me) were on Stuart's wagon. That was because he was such an easy lynch that day. That leads me to believe that pwn and Jason are scummy. Neto had decent reasons for his vote, but the others come off as opurtunistic scum, especially pwn. FOS: Pwn

The first sentence of the 2nd paragraph is a doozy. "Jack probably isn't scum, but I'll lynch him because I don't want him in endgame regardless of whether he's scum or not"???

He thinks pwn and jason are scummy, especially pwn.

(108) has some strangeness.

While I can see that possibly the secret service agent is the serial killer and the lawyers are the mafia, but how do you know that to be the case.

He still just wants me to answer. But note that this assumes no CIA agent. He's assuming that I know the secret service agent is the serial killer. He also thinks the lawyers are mafia for some reason.

(125)

Jack's play has gone far and beyond what is "normal" anti-town play.

He is refusing to answer questions, and (as has been just mentioned) the whole CIA agent thing looks like a scum slip. He then tried to ride out the wave by just playing poorly. Right now, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't lynch Jack

This looks like he is deciding to join the bandwagon. Everything he is listing as suspicious is things he just wanted answers to earlier, and things that he thought made me "probably not scum".

He is claiming that the CIA agent thing is a scumslip, but he has already shown that he doesn't believe there is a CIA agent.

(148)

I simply wanted answers. However, his outright refusal to give any, and several good points that Net and others have brought up

(such as the CIA thing)

have all but confirmed my

original ickling of suspision.

This is where Bub looks the most scummy.

He was obviously just pushing for answers early on, and he thought I was probably not scum. But he decided to join the wagon. He claims to have suspected me originally (contradicts what he's said many times). And he thinks the "CIA thing" is a good point, despite the fact that he has shown several times (including in the latest post) that he

doesn't believe there is a CIA agent in the setup

.

Summary:

His accusations are sloppy, often ignoring that they have already been answered, and he mixes up words.
Does a rapid about face when it looks like I'm in danger of being lynched (his posts imply that he thinks I

will

be lynched

Conclusion: bandwagoning scum

unvote:pwnman, vote:Buba Budderskins

[Green Crayons]

Separated by individual:

I would like pwnman to explain in further detail his Post 52.

I would like this answered.

-----

I have no idea what to think of Jack.

Also, I really don't like the way Pwnman and jason jumped on the Jack wagon. Pwnman moreso.

vote: pwnman

If you don't know what you think of Jack, how do you have an opinion of someone who voted for something you have no opinion about? This looks like posturing to make a "good" vote.

-----

So how do you know it's CIA?

It seems like this is from a role PM.

If you don't wish to comment there's only one thing to do =(

Vote: Jack

Why are you sad that you're voting Jack?

Also, why are you reversing the temporal order of Jack quotes in Post 130? What exactly is your "*HEAD DESK*" supposed to convey?

-----

If Jack is scum, then Fishey should be the next one who goes to the gallows. While I understand what he's trying to say, Jack's play has gone far and beyond what is "normal" anti-town play.

He is refusing to answer questions

, and (as has been just mentioned) the whole CIA agent thing looks like a scum slip. He then tried to ride out the wave by just playing poorly. Right now, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't lynch Jack

At this point in time (Post 125), to what questions are you referring that he has not answered?

-----

·

Jack is being too literal (lol @: ""question" v. "questions") to actually be helpful.

·

Jason's parroting of Neto's Post 100 - not six minutes after Neto's post - is duly noted. Also noted is Neto's lack of acknowledgment of this parroting, even though we've already had a conversation about parrots and the like this game.

·

Bud's parroting of Jason's parroting is duly noted. Neto's handwave is actually mildly humorous in the face of the fact that people are doing what he was afraid that they would do: mimic his actions.

·

I don't like Jason's Post 120; it's forcing the Jack-wagon for a full blown lynch on D1, Page 5. His Post 124 follow-up is

really

forcing the issue - "how do you know the setup" in the face of Jack already explaining he was just making it up to start conversation makes Jason look willfully obtuse in order to keep his vote on Jack.

[Netopalis]

GC: I didn't call them out on the parroting because I felt it was one of those rare situations where a number of voices needed to be heard in a situation in order to convince someone to act. He wouldn't respond with just me, but he might if, say, 5 people push him to answer.

I still need to analyze Jack's post a bit better. I'll try to get that in tonight.

[Battousai]

Vote Count:

Jack -5- Bub Bidderskins, pwnman, jasonT1981, Netopalis, DarkLightA
pwnman -2- Fishythefish, Dry-fit
Yosarian2 -1- Darox
Bub Bidderskins -1- Jack

Not Voting:

Yosarian2, pman5595, Green Crayons

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

NOTE: Rule number 18 has been edited to better reflect what was posted in the queue.

[Bub Bidderskins]

EBWOP: *facepalm* I meant Secret Service agent .

Interesting, let's go through it.

Bub votes me for copying and pasting the answers (44)
I explain in (45) and ask him why he thinks it's suspicious in (46)
In (48) I post the explanation for the 2nd time, in response to a direct question
In (69)

At this point Jack is so anti-town that he is unlikely to be scum. No scum in his right mind would openly deny information that could be helpful to the town.

However, until you are willing to explain more as to why you copy and pasted votes and what makes you think there's a CIA-serial killer, then my vote will remain on you.

I'm not likely to be scum, he just wants answers (one of these was answered already, twice in fact. He even says "votes" instead of "answers)

In (91)

The point is that usually when somebody is so blatantly anti-town, then they're probably not scum, because scum isn't that stupid.

I'm voting for Jack to try and get answers.

However, if it comes down to it I'll lynch him, mainly because I don't want it in the end-game if he goes on to ruin it regardless of whether he's scum or not. Also, if you noticed in the game above, all of the scum (including me) were on Stuart's wagon. That was because he was such an easy lynch that day. That leads me to believe that pwn and Jason are scummy. Neto had decent reasons for his vote, but the others come off as opurtunistic scum, especially pwn. FOS: Pwn

The first sentence of the 2nd paragraph is a doozy. "Jack probably isn't scum, but I'll lynch him because I don't want him in endgame regardless of whether he's scum or not"???

He thinks pwn and jason are scummy, especially pwn.

(108) has some strangeness.

While I can see that possibly the secret service agent is the serial killer and the lawyers are the mafia, but how do you know that to be the case.

He still just wants me to answer. But note that this assumes no CIA agent. He's assuming that I know the secret service agent is the serial killer. He also thinks the lawyers are mafia for some reason.

(125)

Jack's play has gone far and beyond what is "normal" anti-town play.

He is refusing to answer questions, and (as has been just mentioned) the whole CIA agent thing looks like a scum slip. He then tried to ride out the wave by just playing poorly. Right now, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't lynch Jack

This looks like he is deciding to join the bandwagon. Everything he is listing as suspicious is things he just wanted answers to earlier, and things that he thought made me "probably not scum".

He is claiming that the CIA agent thing is a scumslip, but he has already shown that he doesn't believe there is a CIA agent.

(148)

I simply wanted answers. However, his outright refusal to give any, and several good points that Net and others have brought up

(such as the CIA thing)

have all but confirmed my

original ickling of suspision.

This is where Bub looks the most scummy.

He was obviously just pushing for answers early on, and he thought I was probably not scum. But he decided to join the wagon. He claims to have suspected me originally (contradicts what he's said many times). And he thinks the "CIA thing" is a good point, despite the fact that he has shown several times (including in the latest post) that he

doesn't believe there is a CIA agent in the setup

.

Summary:

His accusations are sloppy, often ignoring that they have already been answered, and he mixes up words.
Does a rapid about face when it looks like I'm in danger of being lynched (his posts imply that he thinks I

will

be lynched

Conclusion: bandwagoning scum

unvote:pwnman, vote:Buba Budderskins

Okay, where do I start...

1.

Bub votes me for copying and pasting the answers (44)
I explain in (45) and ask him why he thinks it's suspicious in (46)
In (48) I post the explanation for the 2nd time, in response to a direct question

You never explained why you did it. From what I can gather in 45, you did because you could, am I right? Well, the result was that you ended up dodging all the questions, which is very scummy indeed.

2.

In (69)

At this point Jack is so anti-town that he is unlikely to be scum. No scum in his right mind would openly deny information that could be helpful to the town.

However, until you are willing to explain more as to why you copy and pasted votes and what makes you think there's a CIA-serial killer, then my vote will remain on you.

I'm not likely to be scum, he just wants answers (one of these was answered already, twice in fact. He even says "votes" instead of "answers)

As stated above, you still haven't really answered the question which you "answered already". As far as the votes and answers thing, that was a simple mistake and means nothing.

3.

In (91)

The point is that usually when somebody is so blatantly anti-town, then they're probably not scum, because scum isn't that stupid.

I'm voting for Jack to try and get answers.

However, if it comes down to it I'll lynch him, mainly because I don't want it in the end-game if he goes on to ruin it regardless of whether he's scum or not. Also, if you noticed in the game above, all of the scum (including me) were on Stuart's wagon. That was because he was such an easy lynch that day. That leads me to believe that pwn and Jason are scummy. Neto had decent reasons for his vote, but the others come off as opurtunistic scum, especially pwn. FOS: Pwn

The first sentence of the 2nd paragraph is a doozy. "Jack probably isn't scum, but I'll lynch him because I don't want him in endgame regardless of whether he's scum or not"???

He thinks pwn and jason are scummy, especially pwn.

Will I remind you that it was post 91. It was very early in the game, and there were no votes on you. I just wanted answers, and I didn't intend on carrying that forward to a lynch at that time. Now, however, with your "answers", I do want to see you lynched.

4.

(108) has some strangeness.

While I can see that possibly the secret service agent is the serial killer and the lawyers are the mafia, but how do you know that to be the case.

He still just wants me to answer. But note that this assumes no CIA agent. He's assuming that I know the secret service agent is the serial killer. He also thinks the lawyers are mafia for some reason.

This post was mainly hypothetical, and based on the assumption that the jurors are the town (which may or may not be true, though the "vanilla juror" does lead one to think that the jurors are town).

If that holds true, then it just makes common-sense that the lawyers are mafians and the Secret Service agent is an SK (i.e. attorney goon/attorney roleblocker), because the Secret Service agent is by himself while the lawyers are in league. I could be wrong of course, but that's just my take on the set-up.

5.

(125)

Jack's play has gone far and beyond what is "normal" anti-town play.

He is refusing to answer questions, and (as has been just mentioned) the whole CIA agent thing looks like a scum slip. He then tried to ride out the wave by just playing poorly. Right now, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't lynch Jack

This looks like he is deciding to join the bandwagon. Everything he is listing as suspicious is things he just wanted answers to earlier, and things that he thought made me "probably not scum".

He is claiming that the CIA agent thing is a scumslip, but he has already shown that he doesn't believe there is a CIA agent.

Do I really have to walk you through the difference between "the CIA thing" and "me believing that there is a CIA agent". The CIA agent is the whole thing where you said that there was a CIA agent. Saying that it is a scum slip doesn't mean that I have to "believe in a CIA agent". It's not like the CIA have a church or anything .

As far as my suspision is concerned, I find you suspisious now because of the "answers" that you

gave

failed to give just made you look like genuine scum.

6.

(148)

I simply wanted answers. However, his outright refusal to give any, and several good points that Net and others have brought up

(such as the CIA thing)

have all but confirmed my

original ickling of suspision.

This is where Bub looks the most scummy.

He was obviously just pushing for answers early on, and he thought I was probably not scum. But he decided to join the wagon. He claims to have suspected me originally (contradicts what he's said many times). And he thinks the "CIA thing" is a good point, despite the fact that he has shown several times (including in the latest post) that he

doesn't believe there is a CIA agent in the setup

.

For the whole CIA deal, see number 5. As far as me joining the wagon,

how can I join a wagon that I started?

If you recall, I was the first vote on the wagon.

As far as having no suspision, while for some reason I am unable to find "ickling" in the dictionary (lol at that), I'm reasonably sure that it means very little. I never said that you were completely devoid of suspision at the beginning, I just said that I had very little suspision on you. Note the difference.

In the end, this whole, super-sized mega post that he made makes many logical and deductive errors as I have pointed out. However, all it really is is an elaborate attept to conceal a pure OMGUS vote in order to try and throw suspision off of him and on to me.

[Yosarian2]

keyboard isn't working will post later

[Fishythefish]

Dark on Jack:
Dark thought that CIA was a SKslip. Ok, that was possible. But there's no SK in the game. What is your vote now based on, Dark?

How do you know that there isn't an SK. You seem to be just as sure of it as Jack was when he said that there was an SK in the CIA. For some reason I find this fishy, fishy (pun completely intended).

Slip of the keyboard. I meant "no CIA agent in the game". I have no idea if there's a SK in the game.

As you might imagine, I have a lot to say. Firstly I didn't say that you should be lynched now, or that you are even scum now. I was saying that

if

, and only if, Jack turns out to be scum, then you should be the next one lynched, due to your defense of him.

Yes. Which really look to me like a strategy to make me scared he is scum, and stop trying to argue that the case on him stinks. Because you pretty much agree with my defenses, but still you say I should be lynched if Jack flips scum.

Further-more, as far as me reversing positions, I'd like to remind you that at the time I voted, the sole reason for my vote was to get answers as to why Jack copy and pasted his answers.

Also, keep in mind that it was early in day one (and it still is I might add), and that he didn't have any votes on him at that point. I simply wanted answers. However, his outright refusal to give any, and several good points that Net and others have brought up (such as the CIA thing) have all but confirmed my original ickling of suspision.

But he did answer about copy/paste - he said that he did it to see if Neto or anybody else cared about the answers. I really don't think "several good points" have been brought up by other people - and the post of yours I quoted strongly suggests you wouldn't think so either.

Also, if Jack turns out to be town, then that means there's got to be scum on his wagon. Most likely it will be pwn, but it could be any one who wagon-jumped when they saw that they could get an easy lynch.

I heartily agree with this. If you think that there are people who "wagoned-jumped when they saw that they could get an easy lynch" on the same wagon as you, you are on the wrong wagon. Don't wait for Jack to be lynched - the players attacking him are much scummier than he is.

@BB: you seem to be mostly voting Jack for "failing to answer questions" (at least, that's the reason you are currently being most vocal about). Can you point me to some questions he's failed to answer, and give me reasons why he would do so as scum? The only thing I see in you posts so far is the initial Neto questions - and I can't believe that anyone has so little faith in their abilities to answer those questions that they resorted to doing something that was bound to attract attention.

[DarkLightA]

Dark on Jack:
Dark thought that CIA was a SKslip. Ok, that was possible. But there's no (...) [CIA agent] in the game. What is your vote now based on, Dark?

What I'm saying is that our roles have names, and I believe that Jack got a role based on Serial Killer under the name of "CIA agent".

[Jack]

DarkLightA, could you explain the thought process behind the unhappy smiley here:

So how do you know it's CIA? It seems like this is from a role PM.

If you don't wish to comment there's only one thing to do =(

Vote: Jack

[Fishythefish]

What I'm saying is that our roles have names, and I believe that Jack got a role based on Serial Killer under the name of "CIA agent".

1. There is no CIA agent in the game (unless the OP is a lie).
2. Why on earth would he ever do that, ever? Scumslips like "here is my flavour, here is my role" don't happen. If it's a scumslip, what was he trying to say/achieve when he said it?

[Green Crayons]

Bub: Can you specify what questions, exactly, you're faulting Jack for not answering? For example, Jack explains in Post 104 how he "knew" about the CIA SK. But in your Post 108, you're wanting him to explain, presumably, what he just told you in 104 (a post made an hour prior to your 108). Is there another question that was being posited to Jack that he was failing to respond to which I missed? Furthermore, you fault him for refusing to answer several questions in Post 125, so I'm hoping you would please explain what questions at this point he had not answered.

So how do you know it's CIA?

It seems like this is from a role PM.

If you don't wish to comment there's only one thing to do =(

Vote: Jack

Why are you sad that you're voting Jack?

Also, why are you reversing the temporal order of Jack quotes in Post 130? What exactly is your "*HEAD DESK*" supposed to convey?

I would appreciate it if Dark answered my questions.

[Yosarian2]

Not a problem, Bub. Anything to get him to finally answer.

Um...I'm pretty sure he did answer your question, Neto, and he did so before bub made that post.

[Netopalis]

Not a problem, Bub. Anything to get him to finally answer.

Um...I'm pretty sure he did answer your question, Neto, and he did so before bub made that post.

I meant the question about the CIA Agent/Secret Service Agent, which he said he would refuse to answer.

[Yosarian2]

This wagon on Jack is pretty lame here.

Likely scum: Darklight, pwnman.

Obvtown: Green Crayons

Likely town: Neto

[Yosarian2]

Not a problem, Bub. Anything to get him to finally answer.

Um...I'm pretty sure he did answer your question, Neto, and he did so before bub made that post.

I meant the question about the CIA Agent/Secret Service Agent, which he said he would refuse to answer.

He said that at first, Neto, but then he did answer you, in some detail, and he did so before you made that post. He said that he knew there was exactally one secret service agent, because it said so in the opening post, and he quoted the line in the mod's post where the mod said that. He also said that he said "CIA" instead of "secret service agent" because he knew it was wrong; he didn't want to be accused of making a scum slip, and the real SK (assuming there is one) might react differently to that.

You can disagree with his reasoning if you want, you can even find the second reason scummy (setting up a pre-emptive defense to an accusation that hadn't even been made yet could arguably be considered scummy) but I don't get why you kept saying he "didn't answer the question"

[Netopalis]

I'm willing to switch as I think this is all we're going to get out of Jack for now...But I'm still determining who I'm going to switch to, as there are a number of good candidates. I'm debating amongst Pwnman, DLA, Bub and Darok. Let me mull over this a bit, then I'll be back.

[Netopalis]

Yos: He spent the first 7 posts after we asked him intentionally and obviously avoiding making any sort of answer. He only claimed that discrepancy after I pointed it out. He then didn't give a solid reason as to why he made that statement if he knew it was false. There were a number of different questions, and throughout the day, it has been Jack's mantra that he won't answer anything.

[jasonT1981]

This wagon on Jack is pretty lame here.

Likely scum: Darklight, pwnman.

Obvtown: Green Crayons

Likely town: Neto

I find it rather troubling you could declare someone obivious town in day 1 and only after 7 pages.

[jasonT1981]

I add, that I find it even more troubling you can declare him Obivious town when he has only made 10 posts!

Care to explain?

[Yosarian2]

Yos: He spent the first 7 posts after we asked him intentionally and obviously avoiding making any sort of answer.

Well, yes. He directly and openly refused to answer where he got that from. He didn't dodge the question, he just refused to answer. Which actually makes perfect sense, if he was trying to smoke out the SK. I don't really see it as a likely scum move.

He only claimed that discrepancy after I pointed it out. He then didn't give a solid reason as to why he made that statement if he knew it was false. There were a number of different questions, and throughout the day, it has been Jack's mantra that he won't answer anything.

Um, no, Neto.

He answered that question, he was quite about exactly why he said CIA when he knew the setup actually described a secret service agent.

That first post was my version of the conversation starter. The fact that there was no CIA agent in the setup gave me an "out" once the starter had run it's course. Proof that it wasn't a scumslip, basically. That it was just made up.

You may or may not like the answer he gave, but I don't get why you keep acting like he never answered your question.

[Yosarian2]

I add, that I find it even more troubling you can declare him Obivious town when he has only made 10 posts!

Care to explain?

(shrug) Gut, mostly. He's not joining the easy but probably bad Jack wagon, he's making sense, and I think he's generally trying to help the town.

Why are you asking about this, Jason? Do you suspect GC is scum, do you disagree with my feeling about him here, or is there something else?

[jasonT1981]

Oh, no neither suspect him as scum or share your feeling as of right now... I am just always sceptical as to the reasons when someone says obivious town, especially so early in a game... because only scum know for sure someone is town or not... if you are town, you don't know for sure someone is obivious town.

[Netopalis]

My conversation starters are soooo much more fun then question lists.

Someone in this room is trying to kill them, but the only people in the room that are not justices are the two attorneys and the secret service agent..

Have you read this bit from the OP netopolis?

Of course I have, but you said

CIA

agent, not secret service. Why did you say that? If it was from the OP, why not just say that instead of saying that there's a reason but that we don't want to know it?

You weren't far off in your suspicion Net. Except your confirmation bias was twisting it the wrong way (but conf bias is a town tell so it's ok).

That first post was my version of the conversation starter. The fact that there was no CIA agent in the setup gave me an "out" once the starter had run it's course. Proof that it wasn't a scumslip, basically. That it was just made up.

What? That doesn't mesh with your later concealment. If you just lied this whole time, why the whole charade?

Confirm vote: Jack

Because it would change how everybody else answered. That's not an answer. Why did you make the claim to begin with?

Jack, whether or not Net made up the reason on the fly is irrelavent to the fact that you are still not answering the question. While I can see that possibly the secret service agent is the serial killer and the lawyers are the mafia, but how do you

know

that to be the case.

In other words:

ANSWER THE QUESTION

If you notice, there are still questions unanswered at this point. Yes, he eventually answers things...But he was still being intentionally obstructionist at the time of the posting.

[Jack]

I said it was a conversation starter in the first post you quoted.