926 A Game of Thrones Mafia - Over.

[Raivann]

Rav mafia who got kill blocked and Inq SK? That is a very interesting find Mac.

Oh ok now I see what you're saying.
Interesting? yes. Wrong? yes.

[MacavityLock]

Why did you think this was true? Is it necessary for a mod to distinguish between the factions that make the kill?

Just from my experience.

Please provide links to any and all games you were in with multiple scum groups.

(Arg at the search function being disabled.)

[Raivann]

I was never in any multiscum games that I can think of.
I played in Revenge of the crimson King with a SK though

[MacavityLock]

When I say scum groups, I mean maf or SK. Link to Crimson King? Any others?

[Raivann]

Mafia 104
Sorry i fail at links.

Yeah I'm sure there's more but the seach function in my head is down atm.

[Faraday]

Miserable at Best had requested replacement due to personal reasons, thanks for letting me know and I'll begin looking now. Pwnman is at the mini game limit, unfortunately.

[MacavityLock]

Maf 104, Crimson King for those interested. Rai, if you think of any other games you were in with 2 mafs, a maf and a SK, and now that I think about it a maf and a vig, please provide links or some sort of pointers.

[The Inquisition]

1-What changed between this:

The thing about nameclaiming is that while I don't think it'll help us decide alignment, it may well out power roles. I find it far more likely that Faraday has given major characters power roles and more minor ones vanilla than I do that we can guess anything about alignment from a name claim. Obviously outing power roles is negative at this point.

This said, I don't get the impression Kinetic is anything less than sincere, and simply being wrong about the correct strategy is not necessarily scummy.

And this:

My bad. I had actually made a post yesterday but the internet went down and it was lost in the tubes.

I'll vote yes to the name claim if for no other reason than I think it'll make the quasi-role play thing more fun.

So you thought the nameclaim was a bad idea strategically...but when people started agreeing with the idea, you changed your mind because it would be fun? Even though we were already out of the roleplay stage? Are you kidding me?

2-Why did you reveal that you have another bulletproof shot? There is no protown motivation for doing so.

Aak, I wanted to question Buttonmen, but now I have to leave for work now.

These are fair questions:
1. I reconsidered. First, I put it in context with my own power role, which is not something obvious given my name. That led me to believe that power roles were not necessarily logically linked to a player's character. Thus, the advantage of name claiming was larger. Also I was honest when I said I thought it'd be more fun simply from a atmosphere point of view.

2. I thought it even money that a vigil was actually shooting at me, and I want to discourage wasting the bullet on me. Furthermore, I generally think full-claiming is preferable to trickle-claiming. I've been in too many games where a player not claiming his full role because he believed there was something about it that was best left undiscovered actually came to bite the town in the posterior.

Bulletproof townies don't usually have additional abilities.

I don't have additional abilities. I have flavor text that explains I have armor. Then I have a section that actually details my "abilities."

---

So now let's get to my beliefs.

I believe Seacore is scum. Here's why: I think most town members when faced with a ridiculous "no lynch" vote will see it as VI play. This is because for helio to be scum it asks for two things to exist at once: (1) Consider that a no lynch would be good for scum and (2) Not realize that no one is going to bite on a no lynch and it will cast suspicion on him.

Please note that Seacore's vote, unlike the majority of those finishing off Helio, was made

before

buttonman's claim.

Seacore knew the way things were going and knew that Buttonman was heading for a lynch or a power claim. Seacore wanted to dissassociate himself with whatever that outcome was, so he moved to the safest alternative -- safest but not wisest.

And that's what it boils down to. Seacore has spent the vast majority of his very active day seeming helpful without providing actual help. This, to my mind, is the very essence of scum detection: someone who is aiming to have the appearance but not motive of being town.

Finally, take note that when Seacore places his vote on helio that he does so saying that it will either be a scum or a VI lynched, good for the town. He's already setting up the mitigating circumstances for his vote.

I'll be honest, Seacore had me fooled at first. I thought he was actually

too

eager a helper to actually be scum. Scum don't usually like to be noticed as much as he has. But on balance, Seacore seems our best option.

Vote: Seacore

I call Mac town.

I call Bogre still scum.

I call xvart town.

[MacavityLock]

Why claim that you have exactly one bulletproof-ness left?

[Mina]

I have a problem. I'd like to split my vote five or six ways, but I can't.

Seriously. I'm leaning town on Raivann--although MacavityLock made a decent point about the kill flavour ''slip''--and MAYBE MacavityLock and Inquisition (the latter's weird claim aside). And I oscillate back and forth between ''pretty townie'' and ''pretty scummy'' on Kinetic. Everyone else looks shifty. There are too many lurkers, VIs, and sheep. To be honest, I almost forgot Miserable was in the game before Faraday announced his replacement. And has Bogre posted once since the nameclaim?

You know what, I'm going to

Vote: TheButtonMen

because nothing's changed since yesterday. (I'll be honest and admit that although he's still my top suspect, I'm not 100% sure I want to lynch him today, purely because of his claim.) I'm tempted to move my vote to Seacore, because I like the points that Inq and Raivann made on him--holy shit, I didn't notice that slip xvart caught yesterday, because it is N-A-S-T-Y. I'd just like to reread Seacore first and come to my own conclusions on him. Right now it's three in the morning.

Raivann, why did you FOS Seacore, but put him in a neutral clump with five other players below Buttonmen (I understand why he was below Miserable, since you voted for him)? Because apparently, you don't suspect him more than most of the players in the game.

Mina; all the questions your asking me have already been answered. Read the thread.

Please link to the post in which you explained why you flip-flopped on nameclaiming. I've reread the past few pages and haven't been able to find it.

Also, who did you investigate last night?

I think that if there's a real cop out there, he should counterclaim today. If there are three baddies and we mislynch today, then tomorrow is MYLO (assuming no crosskills). So I'd personally be skeptical of any claims coming tomorrow. I think it's worth the 1 v. 1 trade-off.

Here is something I'm pondering right now:

Is Inq the Serial Killer. Anyone care to weigh in on what they think about that possibility?

I can see two evil Inquisition scenarios:

1-Inquisition is scum with no bulletproof immunity. He targeted a player who isn't xvart. (His kill was either blocked or healed.) He reads the morning scene...and sees 'xvart is dead.' He realizes there's another killing team out there, and decides to reveal as BP so as to discourage them from nightkilling him.

2-Inquisition is scum with nightkill immunity (probably the SK--meaning he knows there's another kill team out there). He targeted xvart last night. Yet now, he sees that there's only one kill, so he's afraid that his cover has been blown--particularly since he was an unlikely heal. So just to be on the safe side, he's revealing as BP so that the scum don't think anything's amiss.

(Actually, #3: there's only one killing faction, but he feels like pulling a wild gambit just for the hell of it.)

His lack of scumhunting during Day One (particularly for someone whose job should be to attract a NK) is suspicious, and I'm always paranoid about claimed BP players. That said, I'll admit that his most recent answers were pretty good, and I like his Seacore case.

I call xvart town.

No credit for this one.

Bulletproof townies don't usually have additional abilities.

...

I'm debating how hard I should pressure you on this.

Okay, MacavityLock, figure it out for yourself. What ability might a bulletproof townie have in this game, other than a bulletproof shot? Because you know, I'm making what I think is a very reasonable assumption...and something about this quote doesn't add up.

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry everyone, I had no internet at the weekend. Rereading and will have a post up later.

[Kinetic]

The main issue I'm having with Inq's claim is this:

If he had any more protection left, why did he announce he had it. Wouldn't that only discourage scum from attacking him again? Wouldn't a townie both PREFER the night kill attempt to target him again and maybe even try to draw it?

Everything in me is telling me this is a bulletproof scum gambit from someone who had a one-shot immunity and lost it and now is trying to trick people from killing him in the night phase.

For this to make him scum though, it points toward SK because of the type of protection (I see SKs much more likely to have night kill protection), and since the likely hood of three killing roles is nearly moot he would also thus have to be responsible for the xvart kill.

Unless there is something I'm missing that is so far where my main suspicions lie with Inq.

[Faraday]

Flutter replaces Miserable At Best, please welcome him (?) to the game!

[Locke Lamora]

Sam being either bulletproof or an SK is pretty good evidence of characters not having the role you might think.

Kinetic: I'd like to hear more about your overall setup theory now. Do these flips tell you anything about the setup that we can use?

Seacore: where are you getting Mina from in your top two suspects? I know you found her attitude towards the name claim scummy but you really haven't said much at all about her since then. Why have you suddenly decided Mina's as suspicious as Buttonmen?

[Flutter]

I'm here, I've made a first pass through the thread and I'm going to go through again before I post substantively.

-Fl

[Seacore]

Hello all,

Sorry for the V/LA. Long weekend here.

First of all I'm going to temporarily remove my FOS of Mina.
My original FOS of her was based on Day 1 issues, and while I'm not going to say I don't find her suspicious-ish. I liked her recent post.
Particularly the point about the real cop claim. I think whoever is the real cop (if not Buttonmen) should claim. We'll get a Night 1 result on top of a 1:1 trade (assuming there's no Doc and also assuming we lynch the right one of the two claimers - likely Buttonmen)
I think scum wouldn't recommend such a claim.
Conversley, I think there must be a kind of cop role in this game, so if nobody does step forward, I think that makes Buttonmen safe.

Anyway, now on to answer some of the questions that have been asked of me

1) @ Locke - See above really.

2) @ Inq -

I believe Seacore is scum. Here's why: I think most town members when faced with a ridiculous "no lynch" vote will see it as VI play. This is because for helio to be scum it asks for two things to exist at once: (1) Consider that a no lynch would be good for scum and (2) Not realize that no one is going to bite on a no lynch and it will cast suspicion on him.


Please note that Seacore's vote, unlike the majority of those finishing off Helio, was made before buttonman's claim.

Seacore knew the way things were going and knew that Buttonman was heading for a lynch or a power claim. Seacore wanted to dissassociate himself with whatever that outcome was, so he moved to the safest alternative -- safest but not wisest.

This is an interesting version of what happened. Here's another version, one that I'd probably call 'the truth'.
1) I found Heilo's disengagement and delays both slightly scummy and majorly anti-town. Due to the lack of time, I decided he was the best lynch option for Day 1 (and was not alone in this). Please note that during this time I was open about a Buttonmen switch, as I was aware of the deadline.
2) When he started to post a little I tried to push him into scum hunting, which is when he posted the no lynch. At first I called it scummy, probably due to a little tunnelling. The next post cleared it up for me and I finally saw it for what it was, a VI play. So I called it that.
3) I then switched my vote to Buttonmen
4) I then saw evidence of shadow voting which I thought (wrongly) must have been a scum ability. I've never seen one in a game before. I changed my vote to Heilo. To me, I thought his speech about not finding a reason to vote for somebody, and then clearly voting for somebody, reaked of lies and thus was scummy.
5) I think changed my vote back to Buttonmen to force the claim (and due to time running out)
4) He then claimed (due to being at L-1)
5) I then switched back to Heilo.

So where is the "unlike others I made my vote before the claim?" a) I wasn't the only one voting Heilo before the no lynch/VI post. b) I was voting for Buttonmen before the name claim.

And that's what it boils down to. Seacore has spent the vast majority of his very active day seeming helpful without providing actual help. This, to my mind, is the very essence of scum detection: someone who is aiming to have the appearance but not motive of being town.

I disagree. I was the one who took steps to actually organise the chaos that was a few people arguing for the name claim, a few people disagreeing, a couple of people ignoring it and scum hunting and a couple of people not weighing in at all. I believe that without my actions we would have been in the same last minute position, without the name claim. And we were only in such a bad last minute position due to so many V/LAs (which is cool, life happens). I don't see where I get labelled with "not helping". I was also engaging a VI, trying to make him contribute.
Where is your assistance on Day 1? I'll get to that in my case against you below

Finally, take note that when Seacore places his vote on helio that he does so saying that it will either be a scum or a VI lynched, good for the town. He's already setting up the mitigating circumstances for his vote.

This is just stupid. I was stating my thoughts. I was stating from my original vote of Heilo that he was 'mostly' a policy lynch with a sprinkle of hiding-scum. The town team is stronger for not having Heilo in it, if weaker for having a higher scum-town ratio.

I'll be honest, Seacore had me fooled at first. I thought he was actually too eager a helper to actually be scum. Scum don't usually like to be noticed as much as he has. But on balance, Seacore seems our best option.

Sigh. Let's summarise this. "Don't pay attention to how much Seacore looks town, he's actually scum."

Anyway, on to my Inq case.

I call bullshit on his role claim.

1) Samwell Tarly gets Bullet proof and "abilities" (note, not just 'an ability, but "abilities") and Renly and Syrio get vanilla, no abilities at all? That seems unfair. - Note, this 'out guessing the mod" piece of argument wouldn't be enough on it's own, but I think in addition to the rest, it's a fair call.

2) His flip over the nameclaim. He was samwell with bulletproof and he thought that name claiming would reveal roles? I don't buy his explanation of this.

3) His comment about full claiming compared to trickle claiming, and yet he's trickle claimed.

4) I don't buy his explanation of explaining the bulletproof is limited. He's worried about the Vig wasting his shot? Clearly the Vig (if there is one) thinks he's scum, he'll probably keep shooting until Inq is dead.

5) For somebody who is bulletproof he did a terrible job of being obv-town day 1. What would have made scum go after him?

6) Speaking of Day 1 posts, look at the lurking and inactivity.

7) His case against me is pretty poor. This is not OMGUS. I was one of the first to come out and say I found his Samwell-Bulletproof claim odd, xvart died and suspected me, I was an easy case for him to push and he did it poorly.

That will do me for now

Vote Inq

[MacavityLock]

Seacore, #2 on Inq is a great call out.

I find it far more likely that Faraday has given major characters power roles and more minor ones vanilla than I do that we can guess anything about alignment from a name claim.

Inq, does Sam count as a major character? Bulletproof is a power role.

[Seacore]

As do the other "abilities" (again, I emphasise the plural)

Maybe its an abilities like Roleblock and Night kill

Or simply Night Kill and Secret Communication.

[Faraday]

Day 2.2 vote-count. The

'

My queen, all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the Iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

'

votecount.

Flutter (1) [Raivann]
Seacore (1) [The Inquisition]
The Inquisition (1) [Seacore]
TheButtonMen (1) [Mina]

Not voting:

(7) [Locke Lamora, Raivann, Kinetic, Bogre, TheButtonMen, MacavityLock, Flutter]

Deadline: March 20th @ 6pm GMT

[Flutter]

...okay, I'm caught up, more or less.
---
To be honest, not sure I would've liked the nameclaim. Results of it were certainly interesting, so that seems fine, and Kinetic delivered on the promised theorizing.

All this reading means I could wall-of-text horrendously, but I don't really have the energy, nor do I know what people want to hear from me. Consequently, ask me about anything you like, and I'll answer... Kindly don't ask me to explain too much about my predecessor's behavior, though.

Particularly the point about the real cop claim. I think whoever is the real cop (if not Buttonmen) should claim. We'll get a Night 1 result on top of a 1:1 trade (assuming there's no Doc and also assuming we lynch the right one of the two claimers - likely Buttonmen) I think scum wouldn't recommend such a claim. Conversley, I think there must be a kind of cop role in this game, so if nobody does step forward, I think that makes Buttonmen safe.

I loathe this kind of reasoning. It's fishing, for one. And for two, we don't know enough to say that there wouldn't be multiple investigative roles.

I had been suspecting Seacore, actually, for pushing the switch to Buttonmen D1, and for the largely unnecessary, IMO, VT claim.

On the other hand, his case against Inq, above, seems quite strong. Inq's name seems like a character that could be plausibly left out as a fakeclaim... and the claimed ability doesn't quite make sense, nor does claiming it, really. Also, I barely noticed he existed until I got to the past page or so.

So I'm leaning toward an Inq vote, at the moment.

[The Inquisition]

Sigh. Let's summarise this. "Don't pay attention to how much Seacore looks town, he's actually scum."

Actually if you want to summarize what I said in a somewhat flippant way, it would be this: I thought you were so scummy you were town but then decided you were just scummy. So, actually the opposite of what you've said.

Samwell Tarly gets Bullet proof and "abilities" (note, not just 'an ability, but "abilities") and Renly and Syrio get vanilla, no abilities at all? That seems unfair. - Note, this 'out guessing the mod" piece of argument wouldn't be enough on it's own, but I think in addition to the rest, it's a fair call.

My abilities are (1) bulletproof (2) voting. But before we get into this absurd "please take the attention of me" argument, please take careful note of the sample role PM:

Welcome to A Game of Thrones Mafia! You are

Robert Baratheon, Innocent Aligned

You won at the Trident and were a good if somewhat lazy King. Now you're dead, so I'm not sure why I'm even writing your flavour. It's not like you can read it, is it? Still for this pm you're a vanilla townie.

Abillites:

Vote

You may vote during the day.

Win Condition:

You win when all threats to your Kingdom have been eliminated.

What do you guys think that Seacore is really arguing in the above quote anyway?

Because think about it. An argument about the "fairness" of what roles go with what names? All of this seems very desperate. There's nothing fair or not about it. A lashing out without any real purpose. The only thing he says with any real traction is:

Inq, does Sam count as a major character? Bulletproof is a power role.

I'm not sure I would not call him a

primary

character, but unlike Syrio and Renly, he's a point-of-view character.

In any case, take a good hard look at Seacore's last post and think to yourself if that doesn't sound like a prematurely cornered scum.

[Seacore]

I find it unlikely that there are two investigation roles in a 12 player game. There is a chance (albeit small, especially if it's limited cop) that they both succeed N1 in finding scum. That would be broken.

Also, Flutter, what do you mean by "pushing the switch to Buttonmen D1"?

I wanted Heilo lynched most of the day, the only thing that stopped me going for Heilo was his clear VI play. Then it became clear he was a shadow voter and I thought he was an idiot scum.
I only pushed for Buttonmen when we were running out of time and he seemed the only viable alternative to Heilo. (The third alternative, and by a distance, was me, so I'm hardly going to push that).

I made a reasonable Day 1 case against Buttonmen to show people that he was a good lynch option.

[The Inquisition]

EBWOP: er. messed up my post a bit. Where it says "above quote" it means the Seacore quote above the quote on the Role PM. Where it says "real traction" i had intended to include the part about changing my stance on claiming, but that quote is actually not from Seacore.

[The Inquisition]

All this brings a question, Seacore: if you're actually a VT, shouldn't your role PM say "abilities"? I don't like using role PMs as a cause for action, but you'll reap what you'll sow.

I imagine that Seacore ALSO has "abilities" in his, but since his include more than one ability (e.g. roleblocking and mafia kill), he assumed that it was plural because there were two or more. So his assumption made it possible to make this.

The only other possibility is that Seacore carelessly made this claim against me (that my role says "abilities") without actually reading his own role PM.

This seems pretty damning to me, but then again I though Seacore was scum already.

[Seacore]

Interesting post Inq.

1) You don't address the majority of my points

2) Honestly, I haven't even looked at my Role PM since I got it, I saw that I was renly and that I was vanilla. I didn't go back to see that it said "abilities". So I withdraw that aspect of my case.

Or at least I would, but you seem to have contradicted yourself.

My abilities are (1) bulletproof (2) voting.

I don't have additional abilities. I have flavor text that explains I have armor. Then I have a section that actually details my "abilities."

In the second quote (which was earlier than the first quote) you seem to suggest that your armor is only refered to in your flavour text. Else, why bring up the flavour text? Why not just say "bullet proof is my only ability".

So is bullet proof one of your abilities, or is it something you only found out from flavour text and last night's results? I feel you're being inconsistent. Especially since you've mentioned that you believe in a complete claim, not a trickle claim.

Why even talk about flavour text at all?