Newbie 922: Day 3

[Cojin]

I would like one answer from everybody at this stage.

What are your thoughts on Acomist's play so far
What are your thoughts on my play so far

Thankyou

Acomist seems to have more of a defencive stance then offencive i cant quite figure out what it means though

your play= Active lurking and filler. scummy at the least

Votecount
Lawls - 3 (Elementary Fermion, Cojin, Acosmist)
Elementary Fermion - 1 (Independent John)
Cojin - 1 (havingfitz)
Acosmist - 1 (Lawls)

Not Voting - 2 (Panacea, RayFrost)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch

[Lawls]

What are your thoughts on Acomist's play so far

A tour de force.

What are your thoughts on my play so far

Soporific.

You need to get in the game, so to speak. You're posting more, but that posting needs to have more content. You need to do some original analysis. I don't expect everyone to put in an hour analyzing each player's current and historical play, but you need to come up with at least one original insight. When people call you on this flaw, you need to avoid petulant

tu quoque

counterattacks.

Say something of substance, and when it gets torn to shreds (as it will), cowboy up and defend yourself.

Thanks so far Acomist and Coijin.
Acomist would you mind translating those words in other languages to English please?

[Acosmist]

Everyone should set aside a few dozen uninterrupted hours and read the Panacea corpus.

Look, I'm really sorry!! I didn't even know what meta WAS when I started playing, or I might've made some effort to forcibly regulate my posting habits. I know none but two of you can take what I say at face value, but I recommend Newbie 890 for my best townplay and Newbie #879 for my best scumplay. Logically, they're my two most recent, too, so you can get a sense of how I am outside newbie waters.

Seriously, I'm sorry!

I get more confident in your towniness the more you post. Thanks. I think I've asked what I wanted and your answers need no follow-up at present.

Someone else out there should probably offer an informed opinion on Panacea.

Acomist seems to have more of a defencive stance then offencive i cant quite figure out what it means though

I'm here if you need answers to any questions. I can't reassure you if I am ignorant of the basis for your confusion.

your play= Active lurking and filler. scummy at the least

Hey, I have a barnacle! Glad someone is on the same page re: Lawls, though.

Acomist would you mind translating those words in other languages to English please?

tour de force

tu quoque

"Acosmist" is the name, by the way.

[Phate]

Nachomamma8 replaces Independent John.

[RayFrost]

I would like one answer from everybody at this stage.

What are your thoughts on Acomist's play so far
What are your thoughts on my play so far

Thankyou

Acomist seems slightly towny, but nothing solid yet. His posting style is consistent.

You are being only slightly more helpful than before. Slightly townigh because of that.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, I'm an SE in this game; just finished my readthrough. Here's a few comments...

1) Posting is important. Sometimes when you log in and check the game, you find yourself drowning in posts and you really don't want to read any of them, and you really don't have anything new to add to the game. In that case, press ctrl+F and search for your name and respond to anything that's directed to you. If there's nothing to respond to, ask a question about something you don't understand or something that seems off to you, even if you're not sure about it. The key is simply to post and stay active, so we don't get you confused with lurking scum.

2) Never ever ever self-hammer. Whether you're scum or town, it's always a bad move. Defending yourself until the end will give your scumbuddies time to divert the lynch or gain town cred for hammering you, or, if you're town, it will help town find the scum; it might even divert the lynch on you!

3) Always claim before you're lynched; in a newbie game, you shouldn't claim vanilla townie when you're a power role. Determining when to claim is extremely difficult, so a rule of thumb here is claiming when you're at L-1. However, if you divert the lynch without claiming, it's highly recommended doing so. Claiming either outs a power role, or helps scum find one.

On to the game-related stuff... Right now, I'm focusing on the group of RayFrost, Panacea, BridgesAndBalloons, and Lawls, due to the Panacea bandwagon. I have a feeling we can find at least one scum in that block because of 1) How quickly the bandwagon was formed, and 2) How quickly the bandwagon disappated.

I didn't like Balloon's original vote on Panacea; I'm not a firm believer in reaction hunting that early in the game. That being said, most of his other posts are solid, and there's really not a whole lot about him that I have found scummy up until this point.

I like ed's posting coming into the game; I like Ray's considerably less. I'm still unsure what the purpose of the havingfitz quote was, so could I have clarification on that? His complete derailing of the Panacea wagon is a bit odd. What gave you the confidence that Panacea's carefulness WASN'T to avoid stepping on any toes? What was scummy about edprata's vote?

Panacea's Day 1 activity is amazing; I love her for it. I have absolutely no intentions of lynching her Day 1; it's never a good idea to take out someone who as active as her early in the game because it's fairly easy to get a read on her later in the game (it looks odd when she doesn't interact with other people, she voices a lot more opinions thus better read, etc...). That being said, her walls of text make for a big shield for the scum to hide behind; watch out for those who are posting just enough to avoid being prodded. I'll talk about why she might be scum after RayFrost answers his questions like a good boy.

Lawls: It's hard for me to develop a read on Lawls, but I do like his aggressive playstyle. A wild guess says he's not used to book-length posts from his experience on other sites, so I tell him this: the more you post, the shorter your posts get to be .
Null read for now.

So... starting with a

Vote: RayFrost

.

[RayFrost]

Ummm...

there is no ed in this game.

nvm, realize you meant edprata

I already explained the havingfitz quote.

edprata's vote was highly opportunistic and the reasoning was flimsy, IIRC.

I've played with pan-town and seen pan-scum, so I can tell the difference between pan-scum carefulness and pan-town carefulness. For one, she's self-conscious as town. She's worried about every little mistake as if it would cause her to be struck down by a modkill... >.>"

[Nachomamma8]

edprata's vote was highly opportunistic and the reasoning was flimsy, IIRC.

And what would give you that opinion? At that point in time, the game was a grand total of one page long. Why would you expect reasoning better than what ed presented?

I've played with pan-town and seen pan-scum, so I can tell the difference between pan-scum carefulness and pan-town carefulness. For one, she's self-conscious as town. She's worried about every little mistake as if it would cause her to be struck down by a modkill... >.>"

Point taken. But she really only has one completed game as scum, and the difference in meta is so painfully obvious that I'm pretty sure she's picked up on it by now. And didn't the concern about L-3 seem a little too careful, even for her?

[Elementary Fermion]

I've only played with him as town, yes. I've read two of his scum games before, but it was for entertainment purposes. I intend to run a Ray-meta over the next two days. I can definitely tell you then.

I think that would be useful for several purposes. Some people have brought up the theory that you two might be working together...since I

have

read some of your and RayFrost's games, I'd be in a position to spot misrepresentations if they pop up.

Anything come of this yet? Or are you still convinced?

There has been an awful lot of meta analysis this Day. Any suggestions for scum-hunting when a person has no (or few) other games? (Like this should have been?) Is it possible for someone to have radically different play styles, even for the same roles, to defeat this kind of analysis? In other words, just how useful is this type of play, as opposed to play based solely on in-game content?

[Nachomamma8]

Any suggestions for scum-hunting when a person has no (or few) other games?

The best place to start is with your gut. Read a little bit into the game, and pick someone who seems scummy to you. Then, go down to the bottom where it says "Display posts from previous", and choose your suspect's name in the list you get by clicking the triangle in the "All users" section; that'll bring up all of their posts in the game. Then, check for any classical Wiki scumtells. Finally, read their posts and ask yourself "If I were scum, would I make a post like this? Why/why not?".

Is it possible for someone to have radically different play styles, even for the same roles, to defeat this kind of analysis? In other words, just how useful is this type of play, as opposed to play based solely on in-game content?

Meta is only effective when the person you're meta'ing isn't aware of it. Once they are, it's not difficult at all to switch up your style (heh, take my play for example. I'm pretty sure this is the only time I've actually been semi-helpful in a game...). In-game content is where the good stuff is at; meta should only truly be used as a starting point until you have strong reads on people.

[RayFrost]

by the by, nacho generally has an awesome gut when it comes to Not-Ray-Frost.

And re nacho's re to my re to his post...

Opportunism is opportunism no matter the page number. Though I concede the flimsy reasoning point. (I find it kinda funny that you are defending my predecessor's actions while still attacking me, so I'm actually attacking myself, which is just lulzy).

The L-3 thing didn't really bug me at all (hardly even noticed it), so I doubt it's much (I've got a good instinct about all things insane).

[BridgesAndBaloons]

My thoughts on Acosmist:

He sort of stood back on the Panacea debate, not really commenting on the wagon, just observing. Then he did a meta, declared his read "pro-town."

However, you cannot say my tells have been exaggerated to the point of hilarity, as I have yet to reveal my tells.

I wanted to draw attention to this. FYI, I don't count that as a point in your favor.

This makes me think he's pro-town.

Rayfrost I thought you can only be in one game at a time, aren't you in game 909 also?

It bothers me that this is the one post you chose to make today.

Nice lurker hunting.

Overall... Seems more likely to be pro-town. Do not see myself voting for him today.

[Panacea]

Sorry, y'all, for the lack of my usual activity; this is my first time to do the collegian's spring break dance, so I didn't predict having less MS time on vacation than at school. I'll probably be running on a post a day until I get back to school, but I promise to make them count.

Welcome, Nacho! I read through one of your games once a couple of months back (it was modded by Incognito). Nice. I love the flavor.

What are your thoughts on Acomist's play so far?

One thing I've noticed about scum is that they're less motivated to sniff out the tendencies of other players. I know that to meta me (particularly in my early games) requires much time and effort. At this stage, I see Acosmist as town-invested. (Do fully expect it, though, after I've mentioned this scum-tactic, to be less likely for anyone to neglect meta-attention for much longer. Oh yes. I'm awesome. )

What are your thoughts on my play so far

So far, not overly helpful (no offense. ). I feel that you weren't overly willing to contribute much early on, and when you did (via responses few and far between), the points you brought were somewhat weak and regurgitated. This nature so far has not been indicative of town-interest. Then it seemed as though your posting picked up, but only when pinched by a few other players. Currently I cannot decide if I think you're scum, or if you're an uncoordinated townie acting scummishly enough to provide an easier mislynch for the real scum. Quick! Do something to make up my mind for me! Also, is English your primary language, by chance?

your play= Active lurking and filler. scummy at the least

You think so, Cojin? Because, while I'll give you the variables of Lawls's need to defend himself where you did not need to and his clear lack of content, he still has four posts more than you do (Lawls= 11, Cojin=7). Granted, your points seem to be a lot more thought-out, but you're still not contributing much.

Also, Cojin, would you please set an avatar? I think that's why your lack of posting has escaped me as long as it has. (I semi-consciously tally the pictures, and when too much time passes with an absense of an individual image, it sends off a red flag in my head.)

post #130

*awaits Havingfitz's "overly helpful" judgement.

Panacea's Day 1 activity is amazing; I love her for it.

... Someone

likes

my activity..? Or at the very least doesn't say first that I should be instalynched for it..? ... ... ... This makes me so happy. If we find out you're scum and this is a ploy for Pan-points, I will be most displeased. But thank you.

For one, she's self-conscious as town. She's worried about every little mistake as if it would cause her to be struck down by a modkill... >.>"

Haha, Ray, you got a read on rl Pan!

the difference in meta is so painfully obvious that I'm pretty sure she's picked up on it by now.

... It is? You mean how Acosmist says I'm scattershot scum with Dadaist ramblings and Ray says I'm basket-case town?

ask yourself "If I were scum, would I make a post like this? Why/why not?".

Nacho is such a good SE. He answered Elementary's question beautifully. I would like to add a warning label to the above, though. Remembering my first game, I put a lot more stock in asking myself that question that I should have. The "would I, as scum" question provides the fibers for immensely counter-productive WIFOM knots.

'Night, all!

[Lawls]

Yes my first language is of course English. Even though it may now show at times ;D

[Acosmist]

Acomist

Lawls: It's hard for me to develop a read on Lawls, but I do like his aggressive playstyle.

Can you direct me to examples of aggressiveness on his part?

Anything come of this yet? Or are you still convinced?

What RayFrost has said about Panacea's historical posting style is consistent with what I read. Panacea has yet to do a "meta" (I'm learning ever new uses of that prefix lately!) on RayFrost, so I can't confirm or deny her honesty about his history.

There has been an awful lot of meta analysis this Day. Any suggestions for scum-hunting when a person has no (or few) other games? (Like this should have been?) Is it possible for someone to have radically different play styles, even for the same roles, to defeat this kind of analysis? In other words, just how useful is this type of play, as opposed to play based solely on in-game content?

I feel much more comfortable looking at patterns of quirks rather than comparing a single person's posts against the General Scumhunting Theory. I've seen "scum tells" used rather severely to railroad townies, and, to be fair, the very first person I lynched in a mafia game was a vanilla townie (same as I was). I'm not as comfortable with those general rules as other people seem to be, but that may be my fault and not the rules'.

Meta is only effective when the person you're meta'ing isn't aware of it.

Quoted for truthery. This is why I held off revealing my thoughts on Panacea until she had posted a steaming pile of record evidence in this thread.

He sort of stood back on the Panacea debate, not really commenting on the wagon, just observing. Then he did a meta, declared his read "pro-town."

And someone apparently noticed. That worked out well, then.

This makes me think he's pro-town.

I confess that I can't see why that improved my townie cred; explain.

One thing I've noticed about scum is that they're less motivated to sniff out the tendencies of other players. I know that to meta me (particularly in my early games) requires much time and effort. At this stage, I see Acosmist as town-invested. (Do fully expect it, though, after I've mentioned this scum-tactic, to be less likely for anyone to neglect meta-attention for much longer. Oh yes. I'm awesome. )

Scum have so many chances to screw this up that I'd feel pretty awesome if meta-attention were a bigger part of this game.

Thanks for spelling my name right; I knew you were good for something.

So far, not overly helpful (no offense. ). I feel that you weren't overly willing to contribute much early on, and when you did (via responses few and far between), the points you brought were somewhat weak and regurgitated. This nature so far has not been indicative of town-interest. Then it seemed as though your posting picked up, but only when pinched by a few other players. Currently I cannot decide if I think you're scum, or if you're an uncoordinated townie acting scummishly enough to provide an easier mislynch for the real scum. Quick! Do something to make up my mind for me! Also, is English your primary language, by chance?

My reaction has been similar. I'm vacillating between interpretations of his posting. On the one hand, he's made errors that seem to have no pro-scum import (forgetting who's still in the game). On the other, the copy-paste-paraphrase analysis post seemed designed to deflect lurker concerns without actually putting any effort in, something that seems scummy to me.

My vote on him stands while I gather more information.

If we find out you're scum and this is a ploy for Pan-points, I will be most displeased.

Sometimes you worry me.

Acosmist says I'm scattershot scum with Dadaist ramblings

Happy to help.

Yes my first language is of course English. Even though it may now show at times ;D

Res ipsa loquitur.

Nacho: I am glad you are here and dissecting that Panacea bandwagon debacle.

[Nachomamma8]

Though I concede the flimsy reasoning point. (I find it kinda funny that you are defending my predecessor's actions while still attacking me, so I'm actually attacking myself, which is just lulzy).

Erm, that's actually a really good point. I'm attacking you while defending your predecessor while you're attacking your predecessor and defending yourself? [/mind].

Unvote

, for now, until I at least understand my own case on you...

The L-3 thing didn't really bug me at all (hardly even noticed it), so I doubt it's much (I've got a good instinct about all things insane).

I think it's worth note-worthy, though. Although the fact that she's been keeping to her town meta so far, you have to understand that she is aware of it now, so it might be overcompensation.

BaB, who's scum?

... It is? You mean how Acosmist says I'm scattershot scum with Dadaist ramblings and Ray says I'm basket-case town?

Exactly, you got it

Can you direct me to examples of aggressiveness on his part?

Well there aren't a whole lot of examples, but ISOs 0, 1, and 9 are good places to look. I find it odd to see this aggression couple with his ISO 4, where he gives himself a 3/10 at MafiaScum. Normally, aggressive players are anything but modest.

My vote on him stands while I gather more information.

At the moment, how are you gathering information? You're not really interacting with Lawls a whole lot, at the moment. Are you expecting others to do your scumhunting for you?

Nacho: I am glad you are here and dissecting that Panacea bandwagon debacle.

It's always nice to be appreciated.

Lawls, a few questions:
What do you think of a Cojin lynch? Would you be on the lynchwagon? Why/why not?
Which of the players in this game would you not want to be in LyLo with?
What player do you find yourself agreeing with the most?
Why shouldn't we lynch you right now?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

My Thoughts on Lawls:

4. Like to play laid back and just observe the game

Vote Panacea

Lawls, why did you vote Panacea at that particular moment?

Overall Lawls has been playing true to the play style "observe the game" he described early on. He has provided pretty much no content (other than one big post with his thoughts on all the players) to the game and definitely has lurked through.

Lawls, are you waiting for something? When do you think you will become more active? Or will you stay this passive the whole game? Yes you have made votes, but not of them very strong.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Meta is only effective when the person you're meta'ing isn't aware of it.

This is

the

most important lesson of meta. Even more important than knowing how to effectively meta, or how to apply metas to current games is knowing when to disregard it. I can't state this (for the few newbs in this game) enough: if someone becomes aware of their meta, they can't use it.

For instance, Rayfrost recently mentioned how Panacea is overly careful as town as if she might get a modkill. If the

opposite

was true like other people, I wouldn't be surprised to see her starting make purposeful spelling errors to look like her town meta. Get it? Remember this is assuming her meta is opposite simply for the sake of illustrating my point.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

This makes me think he's pro-town.

I confess that I can't see why that improved my townie cred; explain.

The manner in which you said that me not revealing my reasons was scummy seemed pro-town to me. It didn't seem like you were planting suspicion on someone just to do so, it felt like you really genuinely were looking at who could be scum, and saw this as a possible reason to think I'm scummy. A lot of times withholding reasons is seen as scummy (which I disagree with, but whatever) and I'm used to getting flack from it. However, I have found a lot of success in using the tactics I do.

BaB, who's scum?

Still working on that one. Let me get back to you.

But while you're on the phone... I'm curious about your vote on Rayfrost. You said earlier that you don't like reaction hunting early game (i have no idea why not, since reactions to early wagons really are the only way to find scum) so you aren't reaction hunting. You have genuine reasons to suspect Rayfrost. This really isn't a question, I guess.

[RayFrost]

Thing is, if you change your play to try and match your meta, it can be noticed.

[Cojin]

not my momma

Why was i brought up?


And on the topic of meta i fullheartedly agree that when one knows there meta they can not use there meta as a defence because it is easily faked, and town tell meta cant be used if they are town as if they know it they can fake it as mafia.

[havingfitz]

Back from v/LA. Still happy with my vote on Cojin. He is adding nothing to the game despite his "IC status". I have a little catching up to do in here. Hello Nacho.

[havingfitz]

I would like one answer from everybody at this stage.

What are your thoughts on Acomist's play so far
What are your thoughts on my play so far

Thankyou

Why do you want our thoughts on Acosmist? To validate your vote on him? But ok...

I like his play so far. He's lower on my scum list than most. I think he is bringing some very good input to the game.

On you....if my vote wasn't on Cojin it would probably be on you. You are staying involved at a low level and not contributing much. You have made one post with a lot of content of debatable value and very very little else. I would not bet on you and Cojin both being scum but I do think at least one of you are.

[Panacea]

First off, I've got very limited time on the computer, and I'm using most of what I have on meta'ing Ray's 86524695785 games. I'll be on later tonight with my verdict (I'm modile right now).

@ Bridges: I'll start making spelling errors to match my Town meta? Lol, you DID meta me, yes? I'm a very proud English major, and I daresay I don't submit a remarkable quantity of spelling errors, whatever my alignment.

[Acosmist]

Well there aren't a whole lot of examples, but ISOs 0, 1, and 9 are good places to look. I find it odd to see this aggression couple with his ISO 4, where he gives himself a 3/10 at MafiaScum. Normally, aggressive players are anything but modest.

All right, I'm going to go find those and offer my thoughts on them in light of all the content we have by and about Lawls ITT.

1) Have you played with anyone on this list before?
2) What is your prior mafia game experience?
3) What is your favorite fruit?
4) Self-identify an aspect of your personality or mafia-playstyle.

1. No don't think so
2. Played around 30-40 games on another site and one on this site.
3. Grapes
4. Like to play laid back and just observe the game

Vote Panacea

Is it the unjustified vote that you deem aggressive? It stands in stark contrast to the "laid-back" self-evaluation just before that.

You seem to be worried Panacea, are you worried?

I'll give you this one. In fact, I can see this retroactively making the bare vote aggressive.

And people say my posts and worthy

IIRC, I deemed this "tu quoque petulance." It completely avoids engaging with the discussions in the thread and tries to divert attention.

"Passive-aggressive" is how I'd describe his play, actually.

At the moment, how are you gathering information?

I've encouraged Lawls to make some definitive judgments, I've called him on his lack of content, and I'm asking other people for their opinions on his posting. I even asked you to explain your "aggressiveness" comment further!

You're not really interacting with Lawls a whole lot, at the moment.

My last three posts address Lawls directly. In fact, since the decline of the Panacea issue, exchanges with and discussions of Lawls have dominated my posting.

Are you expecting others to do your scumhunting for you?

No; have you stopped beating your wife?

Overall Lawls has been playing true to the play style "observe the game" he described early on. He has provided pretty much no content (other than one big post with his thoughts on all the players) to the game and definitely has lurked through.

It feels almost like cheating to agree with this; it's an obvious truth that could be reached simply by reading the posts in this thread. What's remarkable is that this opinion is not universal.

The manner in which you said that me not revealing my reasons was scummy seemed pro-town to me. It didn't seem like you were planting suspicion on someone just to do so, it felt like you really genuinely were looking at who could be scum, and saw this as a possible reason to think I'm scummy. A lot of times withholding reasons is seen as scummy (which I disagree with, but whatever) and I'm used to getting flack from it. However, I have found a lot of success in using the tactics I do.

Did you understand my contract bridge point?

Why do you want our thoughts on Acosmist? To validate your vote on him? But ok...

I'm going to dredge up the context of that vote.

Acosmist: In his first post he comes off a bit scummy imo, in saying that he dismisses mafia strategies in which he does not understand. Well what happens if these strategies can make or break the game, will you not try at least to learn them? I just find this a bit weird to start off with. The points on Pancea are valid and seem to make sense. In one of his posts he mentions that he doesn’t like receiving role pm’s, but this time was happy to receive it as the game meaning the game had started. We can only assume he is telling the truth or that he has a role that is not of just a townie. Last thing I picked up on he seems bothered by my post’s which is understandable

...

So to conclude

FOS on Rayfrost, Panacea and Havingfitz
Unvote Vote Acosmist

There's such a gap between the comments on me and the vote that I confess to having thought it was a random vote or a reaction vote.

Lawls: what was the nature of that vote?

I eagerly await Panacea's contribution to this stage of the game.