Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[Kison]

Day Two: Vote Count

Phaen (

2

) : Skill006, Zorblag
Skill006 (

1

) : Phaen
RayFrost (

1

) : jmurph3
Zorblag (

1

) : PranaDevil
jmurph3 (

1

) : RayFrost

Not Voting (

1

) : Col.Cathart

With

7

alive, it will take

4

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

March 23rd, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

[Kison]

Phaen has been prodded.

[jmurph3]

If you want, I'll go through jmurph's postings in general in order to give more evidence of this, but it should be obvious if you pay enough attention.

ofc, if you think the scumteam is me and zorblag, you should call this obv chainsaw defending and attack me for it.

Well, you pointed it out yourself, so I feel no need to say it.

Yes, I think if you go through my posts, you'll note overwhelmingly that I tend to observe and agree, this being brought up more times than I care to elaborate on. This is not one of those times. The only reason why it seems like I'm just following what Prana does is because Zorb is attacking us both at the same time, and we both got angry and called it out as being scummy.

[Zorblag]

@jmurph3, do you think that I've been attacking PranaDevil at this point? I've been questioning your reads and have been saying that I find you scummy for a while now so I don't mind you thinking that I'm attacking you but what would you say constitutes an attack by me on PranaDevil?

I see you objecting to my play because I'm putting pressure on you (presumably in a way that you think isn't fair.) I see PranaDevil objecting to my play because I'm putting pressure on others. Ignoring the fact that pressure is actually one of the better tools that the town has to get their reads I wouldn't say that the two of you are giving reactions for the same reasons at all.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jmurph3]

@jmurph3, do you think that I've been attacking PranaDevil at this point? I've been questioning your reads and have been saying that I find you scummy for a while now so I don't mind you thinking that I'm attacking you but what would you say constitutes an attack by me on PranaDevil?

I see you objecting to my play because I'm putting pressure on you (presumably in a way that you think isn't fair.) I see PranaDevil objecting to my play because I'm putting pressure on others. Ignoring the fact that pressure is actually one of the better tools that the town has to get their reads I wouldn't say that the two of you are giving reactions for the same reasons at all.

I read some of the things that you were saying to him during your back and forth yesterday as attacks. Perhaps they were not meant to be; I certainly don't think you have been attacking him because you thought he was scummy. I'm fairly certain you've mentioned multiple times that you thought or think he is town. It's more the way that you addressed some of things in regard to Phaen that seemed attacking like. Also, Prana's answers during the same period seemed to be defensive in some regards, which led me to read some of what you were saying in a more aggressive tone.

I suppose looking back on it, it seemed like you were attacking both of us; I think we are still having similar reactions to the same thing, it's more that my reaction is because it's focused on me, whereas for Prana as you mentioned it's more in general.

[Zorblag]

@jmurph3, so while you're here, you didn't answer my first question from post post 798? Treating a question that I had asked PranaDevil as though it was directed to you (and I gave the whole context; it really was clearly addressed to him) and then spinning it as though I was ignoring what you'd had to say certainly comes across as scummy manipulation to me. Is there some motive for that I'm not seeing?

Apparently we're going to disagree about what constitutes an attack. If I say that someone is attacking someone else I need there to be some apparent attempt to call them scummy or get them lynched. Disagreeing with the opinions people have is something entirely different and a huge part of the game. Given what you're saying with your last post I can live what you're trying to say but I still don't think that the reactions that the two of you have had to my recent play (or their motivations) are nearly as similar as you're trying to make them out to be.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jmurph3]

@jmurph3, so while you're here, you didn't answer my first question from post post 798? Treating a question that I had asked PranaDevil as though it was directed to you (and I gave the whole context; it really was clearly addressed to him) and then spinning it as though I was ignoring what you'd had to say certainly comes across as scummy manipulation to me. Is there some motive for that I'm not seeing?

I apologize if you've taken this as scummy. I certainly didn't intend to make it seem as if you had ignored my answers, which you definitely have not. The reason I chose that, well aware that it was addressed to Prana, was because all of a sudden, you turned from me, without addressing my most recent post, which was addressed to you, and started to ask Prana what he thought of things I said and of the same things you had already asked me. I decided to use that as a starting point to my response to the whole diatribe that you had with Prana. I honestly never meant to spin it in any way. In fact, I wasn't even using that specific quote to try and demonstrate how you were ignoring my case. My point with that was that no matter how many times you said it and to who, it still seemed to coming down as a weak case.

[Zorblag]

I honestly never meant to spin it in any way. In fact, I wasn't even using that specific quote to try and demonstrate how you were ignoring my case. My point with that was that no matter how many times you said it and to who, it still seemed to coming down as a weak case.

Do you simply think that we're obviously wrong enough in the points that we're raising and that the only legitimate issue someone could have with Phaen is lurking?

Well, I've already explained why I think you're wrong or why you could be wrong in all your other points. In fact, you refer to this post, and I've already responded to all of your points there. So the case as I see it comes down to inactivity. As many times as you say it's not, as many times as you disagree with Prana's opinion that it is a policy lynch, I still see it as a bad case. Unless you have something you would like to add to your case...

I have a lot of trouble seeing how what you're saying now could be the case. You quoted a question from me without the context that made it clear that it was addressed to PranaDevil and the very first thing you did was point out that you'd already answered that question. Why start by quoting the question out of context like that at all if your goal was just comment on the "diatribe" (it's a nice word there by the way, I call spin with it as well) I had with PranaDevil? How does quote help you make the point you're saying you were trying to make in any way?

The fact that you open your last post with an apology points out another issue that I feel I should clear up some. I hope that you don't think that anything I'm doing in the game here is personal. I'm going after the things that people say that I think are either scummy on their own or are lacking some context which I think could be important. My only goal here is to find scum and help the town win. So far as I can tell you're a perfectly reasonable person that I'd enjoy doing things like playing this sort of game with and you certainly haven't done anything that warrants apologizing to me for. That applies to everyone else in this game for that matter. When I'm pushing an issue I'm never intending to imply that I've got problems with the person behind it. I think that sometimes that isn't as clear from my play as it could be.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jmurph3]

I have a lot of trouble seeing how what you're saying now could be the case. You quoted a question from me without the context that made it clear that it was addressed to PranaDevil and the very first thing you did was point out that you'd already answered that question. Why start by quoting the question out of context like that at all if your goal was just comment on the "diatribe" (it's a nice word there by the way, I call spin with it as well) I had with PranaDevil? How does quote help you make the point you're saying you were trying to make in any way?

Definition of diatribe: a prolonged discourse. You and Prana's discussion took up almost all of page 32. If that's not prolonged discourse, I don't know what is. Call that spin if you want; I call it having an extensive vocabulary and getting bored using the same two-syllable words all the time.

Perhaps it was the wrong way for me to start the post. I was adding to what had already been said and connecting back to my previous statements in order to show that yes, I did think that this was a weak case. I honestly didn't think the context was important, since to me, as it connected back to my most recent post, it seemed a logical starting point. Would you prefer if I put a bulletin out to all the other players of this game who are clearly either uninterested, simply don't care, or just haven't caught up yet that I didn't mean to imply that you were ignoring my points, as you have clearly responded to them in this post and this post? Because I'm certainly more than willing to.

The fact that you open your last post with an apology points out another issue that I feel I should clear up some. I hope that you don't think that anything I'm doing in the game here is personal. I'm going after the things that people say that I think are either scummy on their own or are lacking some context which I think could be important. My only goal here is to find scum and help the town win. So far as I can tell you're a perfectly reasonable person that I'd enjoy doing things like playing this sort of game with and you certainly haven't done anything that warrants apologizing to me for. That applies to everyone else in this game for that matter. When I'm pushing an issue I'm never intending to imply that I've got problems with the person behind it. I think that sometimes that isn't as clear from my play as it could be.

I'm not taking it personally; in fact, if anything, I am enjoying there being someone to spar with. It's at least making the game interesting. I tend to apologize quite easily in real life, for things that either are or are not my fault, and that in turn seems to have carried into this game.

[Zorblag]

So poking my head above the individual discussions I'm having with people for a moment I'd like to take a look at where people are in the state of the game right now. The conversations that are going on are important but we do also need to settle on a lynch sometime in the near future.

Right now here's what my guess of the current top three suspicions of everyone in the game is sitting at. Please correct me if I've got you wrong here.

Col.Cathart: ??? (we need to get this one filled in soon)

jmurph3: RayFrost, Zorblag, I can't tell

Phaen: Skill006, Zorblag, PranaDevil maybe?

PranaDevil: Zorblag, RayFrost, Skill006

RayFrost: jmurp3, Skill006, Col.Cathart

Skill006: Phaen, RayFrost, Col.Cathart

Zorblag: Phaen, jmurph3, RayFrost

That's quite a wide spread (which is reflected in the vote count.) At this point I really want Col.Cathart to get here and give his input and I'd like to hear what people are willing to do in terms of making moves to get a lynch in (or if you think that a no lynch is better than the other likely options you could argue for that.)

Personally at this point I'm very willing to move my vote to jmurph3 but I don't think that there's support for that lynch. I'd be willing if not happy to move towards RayFrost for the sake of having some lynch (though if I understand what he's trying to accomplish with his latest post I'm more convinced than ever that it won't hit scum.) Col.Cathart becomes more and more viable to me the longer he doesn't post (he'd have every reason to be hanging back now if he's scum but if he's town he should really want to get in here and contribute.) If my only options to avoid a no lynch were to vote for Skill006 or myself then I'd do that but those are the moves I'm easily least interested in making at this time.

In addition to Col.Cathart I'd like Skill006 to give some reactions to what's happened the past 24 hours or so.

What would everyone else be willing to do to make a lynch happen at this time? What do you need to see from particular players?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@jmurph, I don't have any trouble with flexing your lexical muscles but do you not think that diatribe carries a negative connotation in popular perception?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jmurph3]

@jmurph, I don't have any trouble with flexing your lexical muscles but do you not think that diatribe carries a negative connotation in popular perception?

Obviously no, or I would not have used it.

At this point I really want Col.Cathart to get here and give his input
...

Col.Cathart becomes more and more viable to me the longer he doesn't post (he'd have every reason to be hanging back now if he's scum but if he's town he should really want to get in here and contribute.)

...

In addition to Col.Cathart I'd like Skill006 to give some reactions to what's happened the past 24 hours or so.

What would everyone else be willing to do to make a lynch happen at this time? What do you need to see from particular players?

Agreed. I understand that there's a lot to read through, but c'mon. We're desperately close to deadline, and that's not a good place to leave town in. Obviously we don't know what the hold up is, but Zorb, I think you're spot on in noting that scum would want to deliberately slow things down. Agreed also on Skill, who seems to have simply disappeared, and I would think she would have lots to contribute, especially to the Phaen conversation.

Speaking of Phaen, I want her to either post something or replace out. As I've mentioned before, the fact that she posted earlier asking our opinions on replacing out but never actually did so irritates me. If it came down to that being the way to get everyone to agree on a lynch, I would go for that for the sake of not having a no lynch day.

Speaking of no lynch days, we're now only, what, three days to deadline? We need to have someone to lynch. And since Zorb, Prana and myself seem to be the only ones posting, and it takes four to lynch, even if the three of us manage to agree on someone to lynch, we'll still wind up with a no lynch. And I really don't like that.

@Prana and @Zorb, is there someone that the three of us can agree on? It might help. It might now. What do you think?

[Skill006]

Hold on, I'm here. My computer screen was all red for the past couple of days so I only did extremely essential things as the blinding color was rather irritating.

I read through everything that has happened and I have some input, but I need to go eat dinner now so everyone, just hold your horses for a couple of hours.

[PranaDevil]

@jmurph, I think you're also forgetting that Ray is at least around (he turned up last night). He may not be saying much, but at least he's here. Cathart I'm assuming is still catching up, but I do request he does so swiftly as it's not helping us as town right now.

As regards to Phaen... yeah, I would have rather she at least replaced out when she considered it, as if she's no longer interested it creates problems for us, and even if someone replaces in immediately, we're back in the same position we had with Apathy/Zorb on day 1. In that we have someone entering last minute, and have to consider if any views we have were more because of playstyle as opposed to scum slipping up.

As far as deciding on a joint person to lynch... I think with just the 4 (or 5 if we include Ray) of us, we have a problem. I believe Ray, Skill and Zorb are the scummiest... well, Zorb and Skill don't feel each other is scummy, and I'm unsure if either of them feel Ray is (I'm sure Zorb's said he believes Ray is town). So... just based on my views, unless Skill was willing to lynch Zorb or Ray it would be impossible to lynch my top suspects.

Myself, jmurph and Ray all oppose the Phaen lynch as well (by my recollection), even without Ray, me and jmurph opposing it would prevent it.

But I'm beginning to feel that scum may have noticed that none of us are willing to team up to get rid of someone... that they see us arguing amongst ourselves (and one of us is possible scum still), and are deliberately sitting back watching what is going on... perhaps even pleased that certain people are defending them.

Plus, on a re-read between mine and Zorb's communication, I am now more favouring the Phaen lynch. My viewpoints being that she didn't outright replace out, but "offered" to do so, then vanished again. I'm feeling like she is deliberately holding back, coming in when prodded and then making no effort to join in, not because she's bored of the game, but perhaps more because it is letting her slide by.

So because of this...

vote: Phaen

That also puts her at L-1 by my accounts. At the very least it will prevent a no lynch, and if worst comes to the worst and she flips town.. Well I would rather enter a potential LyLo with active players who may at least help find scum, than someone who's basically sitting on the side lines.

(Oh, and Skill, I don't have a horse... can I hold my cat instead?)

[PranaDevil]

EBWOP

I forgot to unvote...

unvote; vote: Phaen

Sorry mod.

[Zorblag]

@jmurph3, I think that I'm going to doubt your sincerity about diatribe a bit here. Perhaps a long discourse is the only thing that you think of when someone uses the word but it's really not the primary way it's used at this point. I will note that it's fascinating that you've got the archaic definition (from Merriam-Webster) down verbatim but don't seem to know the others. It's not what I would expect from someone who claims to have an extensive vocabulary.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/diatribe
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/diatribe

I don't actually recall saying that I thought the scum would want to deliberately slow things down though I do think it's likely true. Where did you see me saying it earlier?

@PranaDevil, I hate to do this now that you're voting for Phaen which is I think is a better vote than any of the others you've expressed interest in but I don't think you've been following my current suspicions well. RayFrost would be my third choice for someone to lynch at this point. I've said that the last couple times that I've talked about it (i.e. Post 783 (in the last paragraph) and Post 809.) I like your vote where it is but I'd also like you to be casting it in an informed manner which you don't seem to be just now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[PranaDevil]

I may have forgotten your feelings on whether Ray was a worthy lynch, however that still had no bearing on my voting decision Zorb. But I do appreciate it being pointed out just in case. Better to be safe than sorry and all that.

[Skill006]

Yesh, you can hold your cat ^_^ I have a cat too (in fact, my cat fixed my red screen problem). Anyway…

I could lynch phaen ...and maybe jmurph if it boiled down to that (not cathart, though, since he just replaced in).

I would be reluctant with ray.

I would be mega reluctant with troll and prana.

@zorb

(kind of a random question): what did you like about jammer’s posts? I can’t remember him posting much content, just stuff about him needing to catch up.

Prana, I don’t think, even with you voting phaen, we have enough support for it.

Is there anyone willing to drop the hammer on phaen? You don’t have to right away, but it might help to see if there is someone who is potentially “on the wagon”.

However, prana, I really don’t like how you keep calling it a “policy lynch”. It’s not. Essentially you were saying that “the case is weak so it doesn’t exist”, and you only want to acknowledge the lurking part, which allows you to call it a “policy lynch” and discredit the case.

Like troll has said, lurking is a great way for scum to get by. They don’t have to risk looking scummy.

Ray and Troll only look scummy because they have talked…correct?
Phaen and jammer do not look as scummy because they have not talked as much and the minimal amount they produce looks good enough…correct?
So if those two lurkers started talking the same amount that ray and zorb have been then perhaps they would look scummier, and perhaps not.

Anyway, my point is, lurkers can get away with stuff that people who talk can’t. The fact that they choose to continue to lurk not only stalls the process, but lets them slide by. It’s not a policy lynch: they are choosing to lurk, which is a great scum tactic, especially if nothing is done about it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- Her early replacement posts would have been easy to type, as people were already over the stuff she was talking about and nobody would look in depth into her analysis. Not only that, but she can talk about it after the fact of the matter. In my opinion, I think the sole purpose of those posts were to get any suspicions on her, off her, and for a good first impression (which has stuck with most of you).
- Phaen had PLENTY of time to look at other people rather than tunnel on apathy.
- She was a huge advocate of the apathy lynch when he was around. She was a very grumpy camper when he got replaced and his lynch was postponed, probably because she didn’t want to have to have her “scum read” become a neutral read. All of a sudden, when her top suspect turns out to be someone who can defend himself, she steers in a different direction.
- And just because other people may have done things similar to the aforementioned, doesn’t mean hear actions are justified. It all lies with motive.

Yesterday Phaen was pushing the Apathy lynch (and helping get information from him), which was a strong one at the time.

Had stated she wasn't up for lynching fuzzy, and yeah, that's about the size of it. This day phase she's not done much, and yeah, that doesn't amount to a large amount.
However... are we meant to lynch people who are, in our opinion, playing the scummiest, or are we to lynch the people who "are doing the least"?

Just because someone "appears" to be trying to find scum, doesn't necessarily mean they are.

And just because someone has essentially vanished, doesn't mean that they are scum, as opposed to town.

Doesn't this leave room for suspicion on phaen then?

[Skill006]

I may have forgotten your feelings on whether Ray was a worthy lynch, however that still had no bearing on my voting decision Zorb. But I do appreciate it being pointed out just in case. Better to be safe than sorry and all that.

Wait, why not?

[PranaDevil]

Because whether Zorb thinks of Ray to be a potentially viable lynch or not, doesn't factor into my thought process of who may be the best lynch right now...

And considering that my re-read on mine and Zorb's posts from yesterday (and yes Skill, that was a good point about it leaving room for suspicion on Phaen, something I noticed on my re-read in fact) lead to me feeling Phaen may be the best lynch (from some of the points, but also the major worry of heading into lylo with at least one player who's saying sod all, and possibly 2 (Cathart appears to be saying nothing too), it would be asking for trouble, trouble which we, as town, can't risk either.

[Zorblag]

@Skill006, actually, most of his posts were pretty good in terms of content. He spent fairly little time saying that he needed to get caught up. Right from the start he was looking at players and I like most of the evaluation he was doing. He was willing to adjust his stances when presented with new information in a very believable way. He tapered off in terms of quantity of posts over time but I feel that what he had to say was helpful.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Skill006]

hmm...I don't know if I agree with you, but we can save that for day 3. ('cause I think I would have to dig up all of his posts for my case, and I don't think now is an appropriate time to do that. Especially since I have a couple of other things to do tonight.)

[jmurph3]

@jmurph3, I think that I'm going to doubt your sincerity about diatribe a bit here. Perhaps a long discourse is the only thing that you think of when someone uses the word but it's really not the primary way it's used at this point.

Though I didn't think it necessary, I suppose I should have prefaced my use with the note that I am a student of what one might call "archaic" texts; this might affect my judgment of its popular definitions. Also, I never claimed not to know the others; I merely claimed that in my use of it, both here and in many other readings, that was not what it referred. I have most commonly seen it used and used it to refer to a long discussion; if you have most often seen it referred to something else, that is not my fault.

I don't actually recall saying that I thought the scum would want to deliberately slow things down though I do think it's likely true. Where did you see me saying it earlier?

I was referencing you saying this (I might've misinterpreted what you were saying):

Col.Cathart becomes more and more viable to me the longer he doesn't post (he'd have every reason to be hanging back now if he's scum but if he's town he should really want to get in here and contribute.)

I took this to mean you saying that if he were scum, by hanging back he'd be letting town sort of hang themselves, more or less. Was I wrong on that?

Is there anyone willing to drop the hammer on phaen? You don’t have to right away, but it might help to see if there is someone who is potentially “on the wagon”.

If it came down to Phaen lynch or no lynch, I would drop the hammer.

[Zorblag]

@jmurph3, you're right that it's certainly not your fault if we're used to diatribe being used different ways but I'm going to remain cynical here. It's not a hugely uncommon word and I almost exclusively encounter it being used to mean an angry tirade of some sort. That you don't feel that it would be taken in a negative context is very surprising to me.

When I made my comment about Col.Cathart having every reason to hang back if he's scum I actually meant that he's got a perfect opportunity to avoid suspicion right now. I had more blending in with the background than deliberately slowing down the game in mind. Having said that, I do think that deliberately slowing down the game is a pretty decent scum tactic when the town on the whole is fairly inactive so I don't have any problem with you seeing that in what I said instead. Mostly I was curious as to whether I'd explicitly brought it up and then forgotten that I'd done so.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Skill006]

If it came down to Phaen lynch or no lynch, I would drop the hammer.

Would you be reluctant to do so? Or do you think there's nothing more waiting for today?