Mini 931: Supreme Court Mafia (Game Over post 682)

[Netopalis]

Reasons for Darox's scumminess by day:

D1: He calls a lot for Bub to post more and to defend himself, but he never votes for Bub. It seems as if he's waiting to see if it's safe to do so - as if he's trying to make sure that he won't be blamed for the mislynch if it goes through.

D2: He makes 4 posts in this day. One of them is attacking people for not posting more. Also, he pulls the plug on the pressure on Jack which I felt was still merited - whether or not the reason was merited, it was producing some interesting reactions. Why does he feel the need to defend Jack every single time he's mentioned? I'm not sure.

D3: Opens the day supporting decisions already practically made. He intentionally obfuscates the exact nature of his role - note that he didn't put "Officer" in his initial claim, nor did he try to expand on it any more. It almost looked as if he were trying to pass himself off as one of the attorneys, in my opinion.

That being said, there's an important piece of evidence that I was looking for that doesn't seem to be there - Darox saying he had role-related reasons for going after Fishy. I thought I remembered him saying that, but I can't seem to find it. Does anybody else remember where this was mentioned?

That also being said, this case isn't nearly as strong as I thought it was. Unless we can examine the role-related reason thing, I think I'll be canceling my voice of support for a Darox wagon.

[Jack]

We just assumed he was because he kept pushing for fishy to go before him. It sounds like distancing to me, rereading it.

[pman5595]

Pman: What do you think of camn?

Pwnman was really bad town or Camn is really good scum. I can't decide

[Darox]

He intentionally obfuscates the exact nature of his role - note that he didn't put "Officer" in his initial claim, nor did he try to expand on it any more. It almost looked as if he were trying to pass himself off as one of the attorneys, in my opinion.

There are 12 players in this setup.

9 of them are Supreme Court Judges, all of whom are known historical figures.
2 of them are the Attorneys for the case, lesser known but still specific, known figures.
1 of them is a generic officer.

I claimed a name that was niether one of the nine Judges, nor either of the 2 attorneys involved.
Why would you think I was trying to pass myself off as an Attorney?

Also, maybe you should try reading my later day posts, where I have already explained all this and more.

Is this the case you promised?

[Darox]

Some outstanding questions I'd like answers for.

Jason:

What makes you think I'm scum, aside from me 'buddying' with Jack?

If there are no other reasons, could you please explain to me why buddying as you perceive it is scummy.

Jack: What do you think of Netopalis?

I have to echo the sentiments - I'm really not liking Darox's play today. I didn't like it much either of the other two days, but today it's pretty obvious (to me, anyway) that he's being intentionally obstructionist. Not voting due to the possibility that he is actually town and was researched, since I think we need to build a consensus before we move, but I'd definitely vote for him if there was no researcher in this game.

This is the same thing you called Jack scum for before Yosarian and I called you out on it for being total baloney.

Kindly tell me what I am obstructing.

I sadly agree with Jack.

Why sadly?

I'm especially interested in getting Jasons response.

[camn]

Also camn, if you're so gung-ho against lurkers, surely you would want to know who is lurking, especially when the person you call obv town is doing so.

You should ask more questions before you make assumptions..
Here is a question for YOU: Who is lurking in this game?

Why sadly?

Because I would love for Jack to be scum, and make my initial reads right. It would boost my ego. But he persists in being town.

[Darox]

Right now, I would say Dry-Fit, pman, Fishy.

Jason hasn't appeared for a while since voting me either, so we'll see if he rears his head soon or if he gets added to the list.

[Darox]

Also camn, if you're so gung-ho against lurkers, surely you would want to know who is lurking, especially when the person you call obv town is doing so.

You should ask more questions before you make assumptions..
Here is a question for YOU: Who is lurking in this game?

Why didn't you want to answer the question?

[Netopalis]

Darox: Yeah, it is, but I'm backing off of it, since it's not as strong as I thought it would be. I'm going to look into Dry-Fit next.

[camn]

Why didn't you want to answer the question?

a) You weren't asking it in good faith. I suspect we don't even see lurking the same way.

b) It isn't the right question. Fishy could lurk until the end of summer and I wouldn't lynch him, because he is town.

c) Your "check for me" comment was dumb, and uncalled for. I would have roasted you for it more, except for....

d) I don't generally play semantical games with scum.

-------------

Darox's random, useless questions are cluttering this thread up... but I too want to see Jason's answers.

[Battousai]

JasonT1981 has been prodded

[Darox]

Why didn't you want to answer the question?

a) You weren't asking it in good faith. I suspect we don't even see lurking the same way.

b) It isn't the right question. Fishy could lurk until the end of summer and I wouldn't lynch him, because he is town.

c) Your "check for me" comment was dumb, and uncalled for. I would have roasted you for it more, except for....

d) I don't generally play semantical games with scum.

-------------

Darox's random, useless questions are cluttering this thread up... but I too want to see Jason's answers.

Define lurking for me then. You're the one who asserted that scum are lurking. So if that's true, who do you think is lurking camn?

Or am I given to understand that because you think I'm scum, everything I say to you is a scum trick, and that you're going to ignore or shrug it off, and then go back to calling me scum.

[Fishythefish]

I don't think my lurking is that bad. It lasted about 3 RL days, I acknowledged my access problems - and before and since then I've contributed well, I think. Jack called it lurking, and I think Darox saw a convenient way to go after camn. I think it's implausible to actually read my play and think that it's hypocritical for someone to think lurkers are scum but have a townread on me.

[Fishythefish]

Just a reminder of why jason is scum:
- His attacks on Jack through days 1 and 2 looked consistently like he had no interest in Jack's alignment.
- When attacking Darox day 2, his case was bad.
- Replying to people's arguments against a case with "but you're scum".
- Linking those people in an implausible way to back up that poor line of argument.
He's not done anything that makes me think he's actually thought about who's scum. He's done things that I think are obviously a case of getting evidence to fit an argument. This guy is a scummy, scummy scumbag, and I'm ready to vote him.

[Darox]

I think Darox saw a convenient way to go after camn.

?

[Fishythefish]

You saw Jack called me a lurker. You recalled that camn had attacked someone for lurking, but had a townread on me. You jumped on the apparent contradiction, almost certainly without bothering to reread my play.

[Darox]

I asked you to check because I want you to see the results for yourself. I already know how much everyone has posted.

I've known about it for a while. I also know that Pman has been lurking for some time but is not part of camns scumteam.

This is not news.

I called camn out on this, which is why I wanted her to look at who is lurking so she can see the contradiction first hand, long before Jack mentioned you as a lurker.

On the plus side though, your latest post has helped assuage the worry I had that you didn't seem as scummy as I remembered.

[Fishythefish]

When did you find my scummy (you may or may not have done, I don't remember)?
Why did you "worry" that you now found me less scummy?
Why is my recent post scummy?

I'm not sure I'm getting across to you here. You specifically attacked camn because she had a townread on me, and I was lurking. I think this is deeply inconsistent with reading my posts.

[Fishythefish]

EBWOP: sorry, only just noticed the bit about you attacking camn before jack commented on me. This is highly relevant, and I feel silly. I'll go and check that out now.

[Fishythefish]

This came a little after Jack accused me of lurking.

Maybe now Netopalis can respond to #564

Also camn, if you're so gung-ho against lurkers, surely you would want to know who is lurking, especially when the person you call obv town is doing so.

When I read this, I thought that "the person you call obv town" was referring to me. Was it?
You certainly later said I was lurking. Which I think by then was a poor assessment of my play. You are having an argument about lurking, but it really doesn't feel like you checked your facts on me - more like you saw Jack say I was lurking, and thought it would be good in your ongoing argument with camn.

[Darox]

I have been looking at your play, and a lot of it today looks like 'yeah, me too' or 'I'll have too look into this more later' or posturing about game mechanics.

Like I have mentioned before

(Have you been looking at my play closely? I think not)

I didn't label you or pman until Jacks statement because I wanted camn to see it for herself.

Incidentally, can you explain this post?

I don't want to claim before darox simply because I don't want him to have any information about me.

[Fishythefish]

Where is the "yeah, me too"? I had some access problems, and I did have to look into things later. Which I did. How is this scummy? I don't think my game mechanics posting was "posturing", and I don't think it looks like a substitute for scumhunting. Anyway, the period all your comments here cover is about 72 hours! Before that, and since that (

before

your post) I have been active and commenting on many things. "Lurking" is a terrible description of my play in the game as a whole, and, by the time you said it, a bad description of my play today.

Yes, I have read you. I know you didn't label me or pman until after Jack's statement. Luckily, that's completely irrelevant. The point is that my play is clearly not lurking, and you labelling it as such to score a point against camn is completely wrong.

As for that post - I didn't want you to know my role when you claimed, in case you were scum. There's no more to it than that.

[Darox]

I'm not trying to 'score points' against camn. If you've been reading, you would know I don't want to lynch camn today.

In other news.

You claimed a vanilla townie.

Why were you afraid of claiming as such 'in case of scum'?

Was it simply because you are an attorney? Surely you couldn't be worried about me counterclaiming you as an attorney.
Was it because the Bubs school of thought 'Judges are town, lawyers are scum'? But that wouldn't matter if I claimed before you or not, because you would still have claimed lawyer.

So why the worry?


On a similar note, Netopalis:
Your elaborate theory. I have some nits to pick.

You opened up with this.

My claim will involve some speculation about who exactly is scum based on information I have - I'd prefer to claim later rather than sooner.

You claimed vanilla. The information you had was that you were town and you were one of the judges who opposed the ruling, disproving what you felt was the obvious choice for the scum team. However, since Bubs had already been lynched and was the other judge that opposed the ruling, this was evident for everyone to see since the end of day 1.

Thus your role name had little bearing on your reveal, and you could have simply claimed normally and unveiled your theory at the end of the massclaim.

Furthermore, you wanted specific people to claim before you. Namely, those people that your investigation fingered, with the exception of Jack, who you could figure out by PoE. Your reveal didn't include any information specific to either camns claim or my own, only the names. Why did you need us to claim first? It's very obvious that in this setup that fakeclaiming a role name is impossible, so the people whos rolenames you fingered were not going to suddenly lie about their role.

So why did you need to reveal it after their claim? Why did you need to delay your claim to reveal it?


Finally, camn.

So.. no explanation then, Darox?

I support a lynch of {Dry-fit, Jason, Darox}.

The Darox-Jason bussing is fine with me. If scum want to fight amongst themselves, thats fine.
It will not lead us astray.

Why would the scum try to bus in Lylo?

Furthermore, what makes you think I'm scummy?

Feel free to review the entire game and tell me what you come up with.

Pretty please?

[jasonT1981]

got my prod, been having power cuts all week, hopefully will be back to normal later this evening.

[Netopalis]

Honestly, Darox, I made a mistake. The claim made a lot of sense to me at the time, but given the scumteam it resulted in, not so much.