Newbie 937 ~ Mafia Lite [Game Over]

[popsofctown]

come on now. When the teacher takes roll, you never like to say "present" just to change it up?













present.

[popsofctown]

And how do you know how old I am?



I will be a role model for playing good mafia, except for game opening formalities.

No one /conform!!! Be unique!!!!

[popsofctown]

"* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Sane Doctor, 5 Townies
* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Doctor, 6 Townies"

These are the four possible setups kelikar. No millers involved. Cop investigations are guaranteed 100% accurate.

Games take 3ish months to complete.

Vote: horrordude0215

for gross avatar.

[popsofctown]

I'd like to mention that the wiki is very outdated, and there's a few things there that might be solid since the mafia vets don't really touch it anymore. Updating the wiki became more and more of a lost cause... it's kind of like when your room gets so dirty, you don't even wanna try, you know? Probably didn't help when jeep wrote placeholders in the wiki promising to write key articles and then never did.

Abbreviation explications and most points of theory will be correct. Role definitions, which you wouldn't use in this game anyway, constantly change and the ones in the wiki are pretty out of date.

Kelikar:
So they don't know which setup they're playing in immediately (as it would throw the game off-balance)... For example, if only the first setup was the only setup with a roleblocker, if the scum were to start with a roleblocker, they would know that there were 2 power roles right off the bat. Conversely, if they started with 2 goons, they wouldn't be able to know if there were any power roles, and if so, which one. So, balance purposes, I guess. xD

That's the way I see it, though. I'm probably not the best person to talk about it since my experience on site is limited Would popsofctown tell us more about it?

Kelikar is correct, the idea is to reduce the amount of information the scum has. The scum have a lot more power when they know what setup they're in. In one newbie game, I was on a double goon team, and there was a doc protect night one. This confirmed that we were in the Double goon, one doctor setup, and we used this to set up a cop fakeclaim that wasn't countered because, as we knew, there was no real cop.


That might sound swingy, but the town can also get some swings in this setup. The doctor/cop team has a whole lot of power if the roleblocker is lynched early.

[popsofctown]

Everyone: Do you prefer being Town or Scum, and What is your experience with Mafia?

I prefer being town. Less work. I hate previewing my post and analysing how they come off.

I've played countless games on mafiascum, literally don't know how many. Maybe about ten? Been here since September 08.

popsofctown - Who is your scumbuddy?
[/quote]

I'm gonna keep my scumbuddy's identity a secret because - oh snap, I've been tricked :0!

In sincerity though, why was I given a softball? Why don't I get a theory question like everyone else?

[popsofctown]

we also have 1/9 or 2/9 (depending on the setup) chance of catching a power role, if there is one. Furthermore, we also have a 7/9 chance of catching a pro-town role.

Or 0/9's.

[popsofctown]

um, if the mod could fix that abysmall quote tagging, that'd be nice.

You're welcome, Pops. =] ~Kitty

[popsofctown]

Addiction to mafiascum is exceptionally common.

I don't read much on the questions or seeing the questions as rolefishing. Both are perspectives I've seen townies have. So right now I don't feel I have much to go off.

1. I enjoy faster paced games, although it's generally held that town tends to win the slow discussed games and scum tend tend to win the quick ones. Reading players who were forced to make decisions more quickly is more fun to me so, and analysis never gets too burdensome in a fast game.
2. I think psychology is applied logic. So this is like asking if math or physics is more important in determining how a roller coaster will behave. Neither are important, ultimately they are one and the same, just at different levels of examination.
3. Random lynch is better than no lynch. The math works out that you ought to, I can't remember how to spell it out though. You'd have to have far more than a doctor and a cop for the power role issue to make no lynch better.
4. WIFOM isn't really a scumtell.
5. OMGUS isn't really a scumtell. Both of these are just really emprical. Neither is action is really related to the scum wincon.
6. Passive

[popsofctown]

hb

[popsofctown]

razorback, you need 2+ COMPLETED games to be an SE. It's totally fine to post links to COMPLETED games.

[popsofctown]

I'd have to say Red Star's excuse is pretty valid. While you're still in the early low information stage of the game, having little to say is understandable even for townies. It's when something major happens and someone doesn't say anything that things are suspicious.

[popsofctown]

I don't like players who throw out suspicions but won't follow up firmly on it.

FoS: Red Star

.

You used two qualifiers, both "possible" and "slightly" when you first indicated suspicion, then rapidly retracted it as a joke when it was addressed. It wasn't a very funny joke, it sounded like dry mafia-playing to me.

I think Red Star is pot-stirring while trying not to stick his neck out. I've got my eye on him.

[popsofctown]

post 105 sounds like paranoid.

[popsofctown]

You can't do much but lynch the imploders, as they'll prove useless in other phases of the game.

ahoda, if you have a power role, please claim it.

unvote, vote: ahoda

The imploders a little past even chances of being scum, I think, but it's pretty depressing when they flip town. It is hard to win at team games without an effort from everyone.

[popsofctown]

Better yet, ahoda, would you consider replacing out? That way we could at least read his slot.

[popsofctown]

My vote's on the scummiest slot in the game. I don't treat the L-1 vote like it's the hammer, because it's not. It's a vote.

Policy lynch is a mischaracterization. I'm lynching a player because he is scummy and promises inactivity (meaning less additional info on alignment)

And I didn't unvote because I don't expect himm to replace out, and it would be lots of effort to unvote him and revote him. Someone who would self vote probably doesn't have the decency to give his faction a chance by replacing out either.

[popsofctown]

Town. Most players are town, so go figure.

Perhaps effort isn't the word. It's not that I don't want to hit the keys, it's just that I don't like to move my vote around unnecessarily. It's noise.

[popsofctown]

It's not going to improve unless he replaces out. I've seen players implode a lot more than you have. Selfvoting is when they've just lost it. You can't coax them out of it. Greater players have tried.

[popsofctown]

Town. Most players are town, so go figure.

Personally, I have never seen scum self-vote in all the mafia games I've played both on this site and others... have you?

Yup.

[popsofctown]

Strategics, but I've heard of specific cases (not once upon a times) where mafia self voted.

Think I've seen one frustrated scum but not sure on that.

[popsofctown]

(Before I forget, Kelikar has addressed "I've seen players implode a lot more than you have" and asked Pops for clarification which never came even though he has posted one or two times after it.)

I've seen more cases of implosion with none of them turning around and ever becoming protown. 8 maybe.


No, he shouldn't be lynched until he says whether or not he'll have himself be replaced.
Yes, he oughtta be lynched if we aren't getting a replacement.


"Noise" doesn't mean I don't move my vote around because I'm trying to look unsuspicious. It means it complicate town affairs, makes the game harder to follow, etc.

[popsofctown]

This is kind of a stupid question, then... but I still feel it should be asked.

No, he shouldn't be lynched until he says whether or not he'll have himself be replaced.

Then why are you voting him, if you don't want him lynched yet?

You voted horrordude on the first page, and I presume you didn't want him lynched yet.

Anyway, I've already basically answered this question. The vote is standing as a symbol of my intentions, I'm most suspicious of ahoda. Votes aren't hammers.

[popsofctown]

Nah, lurking as an IC isn't good, but I feel like I need to reread here to find something to comment on a find some direction besides ahoda. Had trouble putting together enough RL time to do it. I'll reread some now. The whole thread, why not.

[popsofctown]

Yes, I too remember seeing a game where razorback was modkilled. So we know that he is not making it up and that he has reason to be cautious.

And Exilon, I was purposely trying to find something to point my finger at (however small), just to see how you responded. I like your reasoning, and I hope we can use it for scum hunting . Basically, my question is why even say no-lynch is better than a situation that will never occur (i.e. no discussion)?

Unvote Exilon

Vote Red Star

Lurkers are bad. If they say nothing, we can't have anything to be suspicious of. I think I saw Red Star log in sometime earlier, but he didn't post in this thread while posting in another. Enough suspicion for a vote from me.

Unvote Red Star

Sorry everyone, but i might not be able to post for the next two days, depending on whether the place I'm heading to will have internet. It most likely will, but just in case it doesn't I'm giving you this warning. Thanks!

There are two posts in between these, and I would quote them but the quote button is giving me crap now so I just encourage you to read them yourselves for context.

I don't like this progression here at all. Skertberg policy votes Red Star for lurking. Another player, kelikar I think, points out that Kranix has zero activity and Red Star at least has a little, then Red Star gives excuses for his activity being low.

Why is there an unvote here without a vote to Kranix? I think it could be one of those too-good-to-be-true D1 pairings or a scum player who voted Red Star because he thought he needed to look like he was doing something but doesn't really have a heart for pulling lurkerscum into light.






Also, on reread, razorback's overreaction to the questions looked pretty crappy, but that horse has been through a lot if you know what i mean.

[popsofctown]

unvote, vote Red Star

For what he originally got an FoS for.


It looks like ahoda will indeed be replaced.

[popsofctown]

KittyMo uses IRC?

I'm really trying to get over "girls on the internet", but IRC has such a "1337" aura about it...

[popsofctown]

As I already explained, I felt moving my vote twice would confuse someone about my intentions. Furthermore, I thought it was unlikely that ahoda would be replaced (most people like him keep returning to the site to whine so far as I've seen) so I felt the likelyhood that I'd do anything but switch my vote and switch it back immediately was less than everyone else's estimate (which I concede may have been more accurate).

The town ought to be wary of concluding that the players who post massive posts are autotown. While such total material is correlated with a town alignment, the correlation isn't that strong. I specifically recall one game where one player posted large amounts of content, twice a day, and also broke the setup for everyone, causing one of his teammates to become lynched guaranteed, and everyone concluded he must be town and he won the game, last man standing.

[popsofctown]

Kittymo is so kawaii.


Mask man, you're giving lots of info and not much analysis. That's a scumtell btw.

[popsofctown]

Read what he said literally

hyuk hyuk.

[popsofctown]

I find razorback's posting style absolutely hilarious.

Does anyone else?

Skertberg's case is decent, and horrordude's defense is decent. Meh.

Thread needs more redstar, I want to read him more.

[popsofctown]

I think Razorback might actually be too scummy to be scum. Some people don't believe in that, but I'm starting to.

[popsofctown]

Tbh I find razorback hilarious and wish we could not lynch him just so I could watch him post more.

[popsofctown]

Incoherence is sometimes readable. Razorback seems to have town-aligned incoherence rather than scum-aligned incoherence. He seems to consistently sound like he's coming from a town aligned perspective, and on the most recent pages hasn't been overly concerned with surviving but concerned with getting Red Star lynched instead. Whether he's right on Red Star's alignment, this is a demented form of scumhunting so I think he's demented town.

[popsofctown]

v/la ish exams


Red star is my final vote anyway, i like it.

[popsofctown]

Seeing as I might not get a chance to drop the hammer in the next 12 hours, I'll do it now, what with the high likelyhood of a nolynch now. I am willing to

unvote, vote razorback

[popsofctown]

An alternate lynch is not feasible. No-lynches are bad.

Hopefully you are kidding about your announced night action target. You don't want to tell the scum who you are protecting.

[popsofctown]

As your IC I'd like to inform you it doesn't work that way. Unvotes don't count after the hammer.

[popsofctown]

Doctors aren't informed if they are roleblocked.

I'm surprised at razorback's flip, my read of him was wrong. The reason I hammered at the end of the day is that it appeared to be razorback or nolynch. You should ALWAYS have a lynch. Forum mafia players perform better than random chances at reading players, but not significantly much better on the average. One mistake a lot of players make is overconfidence. Making good reads can only move a read of a player from 2/9s chance of being scum to like, 3/9's chance. Or a read on a townie from 2/9 to 2.5/9. Human players just aren't that good, and keeping such pessimism in mind can improve your play. For example, I always trust cop investigations, even if there is a 15%ish chance the investigation was wrong. (that's a ballpark estimate of how often a sane cop can get incorrect results in large, closed games. Not possible in this one). That's because that read is 85% accurate. Humans are like, 55% accurate.


In the same way, lynching is better than nolynching, just because you might be wrong about someone. I was wrong about razorback, and it's a good thing he was hammered, otherwise we could have no lynched. When you no lynch, you just sacrifice a townie to the mafia instead of lynching. It's bad.


I'm worried Red Star is creative scum, I'm not really sure. The diary thing is scummy, seems like trying to hard to prove he's doctor.

[popsofctown]

It was an MD thread from ages past. Sorry, I don't know how or where to find it.

Red Star, there is probably a roleblocker and a cop, the cop just isn't as foolish as you are. If the cop claims, mafia roleblock you and kill the cop, then kill you the next night. That simple.

[popsofctown]

I read them. I forgot. Most games do a no lynch.

[popsofctown]

I am in too many games right now. Sorry for being a bad IC.


Hopefully I can read the thread and post today.

[popsofctown]

The walls are so large... hopefully I get into the mood to tackle this soon. Ack.

Can we try to be more brief ITT?

[popsofctown]

Exilon and Excedrin seem bickering town. That's what I'm reading out of the interaction. They foster increasing verbosity when they argue with eachother, which seems like they are both town. If either was scum, the scum side would try to curtail the volume of the discussion IMO.

I think voting record would be a solid way to analyze D1. Since I have a town read on Excedrin, I'd like to

unvote, vote Skertberg

, for the placement of his vote at the end of D1

[popsofctown]

I've already explained my hammer vote. The only other point is me lurking, I didn't think there was any useful way to comment on that.

But maybe you're interested in acknowledgment more than defense. I did notice several people suspicious of me.

[popsofctown]

i forgot after pushing myself through those walls.

Should have quoted with all the ctrl+c and ctrl+v magic as i went but eh..

[popsofctown]

It's not laziness so much as disinterest. I'm just not into this one, for some reason or other. Might be the wallposting, might be that I read razorback so poorly day 1, but I'm just not enjoying this game when I come to read and post in it so I'm doing so less.

I've answered all your questions best I could. Anymore you'd like to ask?

[popsofctown]

Red Star is just probtown. It's just improbable he made a gambit.


Re skerberg's post: The sole reason for changing my vote was the deadline. There's nothing wrong with his last post, it's a nice post tbh. I just feel like razorback wasn't bussed. It's nice Skertberg doesn't read me as scum, but he could just be trying to appease me, I'm wary of that.

[popsofctown]

double post blah blah

~Kitty

[popsofctown]

Oh, I don't care. I don't care why he was voting horrordude, I care that he wasn't voting razorback.

[popsofctown]

Skertberg's case looks really good. I should consider that the later votes on the razorback wagon may have been scum.

Skertberg is doing real scumhunting which you don't really see from scum.

unvote

. I'm not sure right now. I have a whole lot of townreads in this game.

[popsofctown]

Whoa. I think post 380 just pierced the crap out of the game.

unvote, vote KageLord

I think skertberg has done a very good job of illustrating a connection between kelikar and razorback. Kelikar seemed kind of an active lurker d1 as well iirc. KageLord's own play today hasn't been as bad, but I think his slot can be lynched solely based on kelikar's day 1 play.

If pops really doesn't want to play, then a much more reasonable action would be to replace him, as we did with ahoda. Just saying.

This because I didn't post May 11th? Besides that rough patch where I was gone for a good bit, and that was partially due to me packing up my dorm room and driving 11 hours home and being exhausted, I've been keeping what I consider to be acceptable activity in this game. Most consider posting every other day to be fine, most mods don't permit a prod until 72 hours of absence.

I don't have a lot of content now that I'm here, because I'm having trouble getting a bead on this game. It happens.


@horrordude: maybe he had such a eureka he didn't feel the need to look at you?

[popsofctown]

A game is a commitment that should be honored. Quitting because I no longer enjoy it is rude, I would never do that. So would continuing to play without continuing to try to win.

Also, just a general question for you more experienced players: do you think it is more scummy to vote L-1s and hammers every time (or most of the time) someone is going to be lynched or to vote one person early and focus all your posts on getting him? Note that this is a hypothetical and mostly unrelated to this game since no one is really doing the latter, as far as I can tell.

Empirically, the scummiest slots on a wagon that kills scum are the later slots, with the exception of the hammer itself. On a five man wagon on scum, the third and fourth slots are scummiest, the hammer would be third, the second vote would be next and the first voter would be the player the least likely to be scum.

If a wagon kills town, there is a similar ranking, but the hammerer is the scummiest. It would be hammerer, then third and fourth, then first and second.

Everything should be taken on a case by case places, but those are good places to start looking. More important than actual vote ordering is where the reasoning comes from. Whoever gives the most reasoning is the towniest, even if the lynch hits town. (scum subconsciously know whatever reasons they come up with are false, and therefore have more difficulty producing reasoning for a mislynch.) The vote orderings I gave earlier usually match up with the sources of reasoning. The first voters have reasoning, later votes are just me-toos.

[popsofctown]

The rather large post i made in here didn't go through?


Ugh.

I'm not doin it again.

[popsofctown]

summary would be that post 400 is right.

[popsofctown]

411 was a summary.

[popsofctown]

of 408

[popsofctown]

There's only a few days left to deadline, Exilon, KageLord, skerterg, popsofctown are you willing to vote for horrordude0215?

Yes, I'd do that if we needed a deadline lynch. I think KageLord is probscum though