Newbie 922: Day 3

[Acosmist]

Fact => if you didn’t post like such a pompous ass with an obsession to prove yourself right when you are wrong, the walls of text wouldn't have been quite so large.

This is a psychological phenomenon known as "projecting." As I don't expect to get any coherent response from you about this issue, I'm just going to back away from it. I don't think it's game-relevant whether you like me or not, so...yep. Gonna drop it and ignore you when you pompously accuse me of being pompous.

Seriously...do you talk like you post when in conversation with

friends

other people?

I use the mot juste in conversation, sure. I'm not showing off here; I've used words and images that were relevant. I think Panacea was entertained by it, at least. It seemed to grow on Nacho, too.

<I’m torn between Niles and Frasier but I’m leaning towards Niles>

Daphne was easy on the eyes, so I'll take it.

You conveniently left out the part of my quote where I include myself in that sentence (added in bold by me!!!!). I was responding to an accusation of tunnel vision from EF in a post that he mentioned you in comparison w/ me. I assume EF inferred I had tunnel vision due to the fact I had my vote on Cojin a good portion of D1....though I did assess other people critically D1 as well. I did not say you ignored other player, I basically pulled you in to the tunnelling conversation after EF brought you up as I would say our levels of ‘tunnelling’ or tunnel vision, or leading a bandwagon were basically equal.

In the course of refuting your accusation of tunneling (I'm spelling it this way now because Firefox is bugging me about it), I ignored your admission of tunneling...well, yeah. Your saying "You and me both, man" did not seem relevant; I didn't care if you labeled yourself a tunneler in that part.

Why are we debating an exchange between EF and I.

I'm allowed to do that! You and EF are not on a private channel.

I also did not wholeheartedly subscribe to Lawls’ being scum and that was right. Some we get right...some we don’t.

No, you don't get to shrug your shoulders and say "oops!; I guess he was the doc after all." A person claiming doc is so restricted in his future play that a liar can be discovered easily enough. The correct game theoretic move was not to lynch him. You tried your best to lynch him. Oops!

Once Cojin claimed Doc his fate was most likely sealed, so not being the D1 lynch was a moot point that ended up being the best outcome for town (though I am somewhat surprised he survived N1).

what

If Cojin had been the D1 lynch I’m certain Lawls would have been kept around to distract town on D2. Now we have a clean slate with the top two D1 bandwagons gone.

You're pretty sanguine about having dropped those two townies. As if we should just move on and be glad we lost them. Well, what part did you play in losing them? That's...relevant.

Is that you EF?

I can see what you post! You're not shielded from collateral attack!

The fact remains he did join the Lawls’ wagon (again) at the last minute.

This really is Cojin all over again. What EF did, just like the things Cojin did, had several possible interpretations. EF stated his reason, and you apparently missed it - like you missed what Cojin was trying to say. When someone called you on missing it, you do...all this.

I think the Lawls and Cojin wagons were very similar...with certain characteristics of tunnelling included...and EF does not seem to have a problem with the Lawls ~tunnelling.

You think they were similar but that's a self-serving equivalence. And that's what I've been trying to say!

Is that because he was on the Lawls’ wagon? Not loaded. It’s a simple yes or no question.

"Have you stopped beating your wife?" - a simple yes or no question

This is still from the same post where you are brought up in the tunnelling discussion. It’s not like I brought you into the fray (EF did) and called you out or compared your play to mine only to change my level of tunnelling later in the game...it’s the same post.

Just because you vote was on Lawls the entire game after you took your random vote off me does not mean you ~tunnelled more than me.

If anyone is taking my post that way...it is not intentional.

Emphasis added. It amounts to saying "I'm not saying you tunneled more just because you totally tunneled this guy all day." Well, geez, I must be paranoid for taking your post that way.

I think it’s sweet how you answer for EF.

I think it's funny that you thought you could get away with scummy attacks on one person without being called on it by a third party.

Where was ‘this’ part of my case on Cojin? Is my vote on EF? Am I your new Lawls? And estop being so pomp-ass.

You made a big deal out of him having supposedly contradictory views on early bandwagons. That was a huge part of your argument, am I seriously paying more attention to your posts than you are?

You're just saying things now, aren't you?

Comprehension fails even the biggest heads sometimes. I was responding to a post by you that mentioned "Emphasis added..." Why are you pointing out the text I bolded for

your

benefit instead of answering the question I asked that pertained to the bolded text?

You really aren't reading your posts. You were wondering why I bolded something that I didn't! You did! And the part that I bolded - "[Cojin's] play just warrants a lynch." - is something you say was preceded by reasons. Well, here's the sentence right before it:

But if he is a doc as he claims to be.....I'm not even sure scum would bother killing him at night since surviving would make his claim even more doubtful.

So your reason to lynch Cojin then was to avoid having to lynch him tomorrow when the mafia, in their infinite wisdom, kept him alive in order to cast more suspicion on him.

You were bloodthirsty for the doctor and you seem to spend every new post reminding us of it rather than manning up and admitting you epic-failed.

How is it? I thought Cojin’s play was scummy. I vote people I think are scummy. Scummy play warrants lynching. Do you consider that a policy lynch....voting people you think are scummy? I don’t think so.

You say his play warrants a lynch after you hypothesize that he is actually the doc. :boggle:

You’re obviously not perfect.

You were serious about the dangers posed by keeping our doctor alive and using his ability at night? Oh.

Vote: havingfitz

Because I thought he was scum. The claim meant nothing to me as there was no way to confirm it (short of his flip). The rest is/was all WIFOM hypothesizing.

You can't see any other way to validate that claim?

When your hypo include "If he really is a doc..." then lynching him should probably not occur in that hypo. You might think the antecedent is extremely unlikely to be true, but in the possible worlds where it is, lynching him is bad. Do you get that?

You really want to claim that as the reasoning you used to back up your Lawls vote when you made it

Yep, I'm happy as a clam doing that.

If you think it’s important to the game, prove it. I stand by my comments.

No, your argument against me is that I didn't give any insight into my reasoning until ISO 32.

This is your argument

. I am not trying to assert a claim, you are. And you are insisting that I provide evidence to negate that claim. That's not how the burden of proof works!

Given that I explained myself throughout my posts before that, I'm calling you on just lying. You know what happens to liars?

Other than your continued focus on me (and the inaccurate policy lynch accusation) I don’t find anything you’ve done particularly scummy. At least not enough at this time to divert my attention from Nacho and Pan.

Yeah, you're not going to be able to avoid this fight. If you thought not actually casting suspicion on me would get me to leave you alone, you were wrong.

The exchange is doing no good to town that I can see and is only distracting other town from scumhunting and allowing scum to hide behind it.

Then why are you doing it? Why are you doing something that doesn't help the town?

I mean, I have a good reason why, but I want to see what you come up with. I bet it'll be angry and hypocritical.

Acosmist, though I do appreciate your help, it unsettles me that you've been so quick to clear me all game. I've been told before that I play obvtown (our very own RayFrost, actually), but I'm starting to get concerned here.

My top suspects are havingfitz and Nacho. Nacho posited a list of suspects limited to those two and you. Well, which one am I supposed to pick out as the townie?

Whoever the scum is has to be absolutely loving the Acosmist/havingfitz diversion.

Are you loving it? You don't seem to be loving it.

Show me where you think I have lied and I'll clarify whatever point it is you are getting wrong.

Yes, you're just so good at that. I think you honestly still don't understand what Cojin was saying, and you think we all will just throw up our hands and admit that it's great the doctor is dead, because, after all, his posts were

so hard to read

.

Anyway, you said I provided no insight into my Lawls vote until ISO 32. False. ISO 9, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 24, 29. Welcome to being scum.

If you are town your crap play is only

un

rivaled by mine if you are scum.

Still incoherent. (I am town) -> ((my crap play is rivaled by yours) -> (I am scum)).

Sure... It's called Glitch in Time, modded by Haylen, in the New York Forum. I'll link you to it if you'd like, but I'd rather not open another window just yet.

Cojin wasn't in that game

Exactly. By putting right next to my vote, in bold, that he's at L-1, I force whoever was going to hammer to think up of actual reasoning to hammer a claimed doc. No accidental hammers were going to result; it'd take an idiot scum will balls of steel to hammer Cojin at that point.

That's bizarre. You don't get to put the penultimate vote on someone and say "Not willing to lynch!" It's self-serving to interpret that action as putting all of the responsibility for the lynch on the final voter.

Then you voted him

because deadline was approaching and you didn't want to lynch the claimed doctor

. That's your position?

Mhm.

There are a bunch of other ways not to lynch the claimed doctor! Like lynching no one. The deadline is not an excuse, and you had no reasoning at all for voting Lawls. My point stands.

Panacea or Furry. I'll explain Pan later when I'm in a more case-making mood.

Earlier:

Ellibereth, you replaced a scum spot, and I already know you're scum.

You're all over the place.

Votecount
Nachomamma8 - 2 (havingfitz, Ellibereth)
havingfitz - 1 (Acosmist)

Not Voting - 4 (Furry, Nachomamma8, Panacea, Elementary Fermion)

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

[havingfitz]

Hey hey hey, I must've missed this last night. C'mon, guys, this isn't productive.

Agreed!

I try to refrain from initiating wallposts but I find it difficult refraining from replying to them.

'Kay. So which is more important? Your win condition or your need to

insult

discredit

argue with Acosmist?

Does this question apply to Acosmist as well? Win condition of course.

Whoever the scum is has to be absolutely loving the Acosmist/havingfitz diversion.

Er... Did we forget that Acosmist is

voting

you? He's kinda entitled to argue his case, and the majority of us will kinda benefit from it.

What does the fact he’s voting me matter? Scum still have to be loving the exchange (whether Acosmist is among them or not).

How does Pan’s interest in seeing another wallpost exchange between Acosmist and I indicate she is town to you? The exchange is doing no good to town that I can see and is only distracting other town from scumhunting and allowing scum to hide behind it.

Uhm... Seriously? Speaking as a townie unsure of either of your roles, the debate is quite functional in

determining

said alignments, wouldn't you agree? Also, you're tied for my number 2 suspect. I'm inclined be interested in his case on you. I've already said that this interest doesn't a town tell make, but neither does it a scum tell. Personally, I foresee this exchange being crucial to outting scum in the (it's true, maybe not close) future. You wouldn't happen to have a problem with that, Havingfitz, now would you?

The question above was for Elli. The debate may prove useful, but that remains to be seen. And no...I don’t have a problem with scum being outted....do

you

Havingfitz, do you feel that Acosmist is scum? I just want as solid an answer as you can provide, please and thank you.

All of these quotes from Day 2 weren’t solid enough?

Coming out of D/N1 I'm leaning against Acosmist being scum...slightly against EF as scum. TBD on Ray. ATM, I'm thinking scum are within the BaB, Pan and Nacho group. Really don't like how Nacho handled the end of D1 though.

Why is it a surprise? I don’t recall casting suspicions your way on D1. I don’t consider lack the of social skills a scumtell.

So who are everyone's suspects again? No one in the mood to vote...at least for other people? Mine are Nacho...a tie between Pan and Elli...EF and Ray close to each other and then Acos least scummy (at least in mafia).

I still get a bit of a scum vibe from Pan and of course my #1 suspect (hence the vote) remains Nacho.

Other than your continued focus on me (and the inaccurate policy lynch accusation) I don’t find anything you’ve done particularly scummy. At least not enough at this time to divert my attention from Nacho and Pan.

How do you feel about Nacho’s end of D1 actions and play so far on D2 (I realize your end of D1 actions weren’t much better than Nacho’s)

On Nacho, more forgivable now that I'm aware that there would indeed have been a no-lynch. I think someone mentioned Nacho's vote as opportunistic? I'm not ruling it out, but I think his reasons make sense. A No-lynch D1 would have been unacceptable (particularly when we had two such strong wagons we'd only WIFOM ourselves over Today). One had claimed Doc. It's not hard to see that logic.

Considering you are right behind Nacho on my scum list it comes as no surprise to me that you
Find Nacho’s D1 actions forgivable.

and what in my play has me on par with Nacho?

Nacho was uber-helpful at the beginning Yesterday, but Today he almost seems... detached? His final vote looked suspicious to me (given my incorrect mindset). With you, I don't like this:

Coming out of D/N1 I'm leaning against Acosmist being scum...slightly against EF as scum. TBD on Ray. ATM, I'm thinking scum are within the BaB, Pan and Nacho group. Really don't like how Nacho handled the end of D1 though.

Vote: Nacho

You actually

said

that you thought Acosmist had a decent chance of being scum

, then you voted Nacho. Since then, you've been embarking on a novella against Acosmist and having fits on Elementary without moving your Nacho vote. Then you somewhat abruptly decide Acosmist is town and (along with yourself) distracting the rest of town from the hunt. This feels... weird...

Where did I say Acosmist had a decent chance of being scum (bolding by me)? This is a lie (unless I’m overlooking it in my ISO or not recalling it) and is in line with most of this post of yours...inaccurate and misleading. WTH does “embarking on a novella” mean in relation to keeping my vote on Nacho? And what does my exchange with EF matter re: my Nacho vote? Both exchanges are iirc in response to posts/comments directed at me, by people who aren’t at the head of my scum rankings, and which have no bearing on my Nacho vote. :shaking head:

And joy...Acosmist has posted another wall, and bonus joy, it's full of misconceptions and inaccuracies. If anyone is really interested in another wallpost by me then let me know...otherwise I'll try to hold back. I'm travelling all day tomorrow so next post won't be until at least late Sunday.

[Acosmist]

And joy...Acosmist has posted another wall, and bonus joy, it's full of misconceptions and inaccuracies.

Yeah how dare I quote your words to show the things you said!

How does it feel to be schooled by an MS n00b? Pretty bad, right?

[Acosmist]

Agreed!

You can stop replying.

I don't want to stop having this argument, because I'm tearing you to shreds. You had no case against Cojin, you have no case against anyone. There's value in having people read how badly you're misrepresenting.

Does this question apply to Acosmist as well? Win condition of course.

Why would it? Pointing out that you are scum is 31 flavors of awesome for my win condition.

What does the fact he’s voting me matter? Scum still have to be loving the exchange (whether Acosmist is among them or not).

You're saying "Look, over there, the scum who are loving this attention on me!" Well, hey, my point is that you are the scum, and your attempt to cast yourself as a martyr who is a distraction from the true scumhunting is utterly unconvincing.

The question above was for Elli. The debate may prove useful, but that remains to be seen. And no...I don’t have a problem with scum being outted....do

you

Mafia is a game where the players post in public during the day in order to determine who among them is a member of the sinister mafia group. Your questions to players are public, and you don't get to whine that someone you weren't addressing is calling you on something scummy in your question. Seriously, do you know how to play this game?

If anyone is really interested in another wallpost by me then let me know...otherwise I'll try to hold back.

I love when you make wallposts. You claimed that they are not helping the town, so every time you make one,

by your own admission

, you are doing something anti-town. That makes this very pleasant to do.

vote: havingfitz

[Ellibereth]

:
:arrow: Ellibereth: Happy birthday.


. _i_i_i_i_i_i_i_i_i_i_i_
/_________________\
\_________________/

Um, it...

kinda

looks like a cake... And I dunno how old you are, so for proportion's sake, happy 11th.

Thanks!

How does Pan’s interest in seeing another wallpost exchange between Acosmist and I indicate she is town to you? The exchange is doing no good to town that I can see and is only distracting other town from scumhunting and allowing scum to hide behind it. Admittedly, I’m just as guilty as Acosmist at perpetuating the exchange but I can’t help it. I try to refrain from initiating wallposts but I find it difficult refraining from replying to them.

I'm not anwsering this cause I'm not a big fan of showing scum my townread playbook.

HEY NACH, CAN YOU LINK ME TO ANY TOWN-READABLE POST YOU MADE THE WHOLE GAME. I SKIMMED YOUR ISO AND CAN'T FIND ANY.

ISO 0. The greatness ends there.

Fail. What a suprise you're on the lower end of my PoE spectrum then.

Temporarily revoking town read on Furry to pend further review when he finishes his catch up like a "good" replacement (hahaha)
Acos, could you do me a favor and just bullet point a quick list of why fitz is scum without all the quotes and stuff?

[Acosmist]

Acos, could you do me a favor and just bullet point a quick list of why fitz is scum without all the quotes and stuff?

He is on the record wanting to lynch Cojin even if Cojin really was the doctor.

He willfully misinterpreted what Cojin was saying in his attacks.

He is doing the same thing with Elementary Fermion now.

His continuing an argument he thinks only helps scum makes him anti-town by his own standard.

He has spent most of the game trying to stifle discussion.

His next post will take issue with these summaries even though the points are argued fully in my other posts.

Where are those stats you owe me?

[Nachomamma8]

Cojin wasn't in that game

Hmm... How to explain... OOH

If a person is scum, then they will typically go silent/calm and nonreactive when they believe they've been lynched.
Cojin responded in a loud and angry way, therefore: Cojin is not scum.

I learned this lesson from the game I pointed you to.

If you still don't understand, I'll have to break out the crayons and construction paper.

That's bizarre. You don't get to put the penultimate vote on someone and say "Not willing to lynch!" It's self-serving to interpret that action as putting all of the responsibility for the lynch on the final voter.

Ever heard of putting pressure on people? It's like... putting scum to L-1 and seeing if someone you suspect to be their buddy hammer, or putting a lurker to L-1 and seeing if the LaL trolls will have the guts to cast the final vote.

Like lynching no one.

NONONONONOBADBADBADHERESYBLASPHEMYNONONONONONONONO

You're all over the place.

Go on...

[Acosmist]

Hmm... How to explain... OOH

If a person is scum, then they will typically go silent/calm and nonreactive when they believe they've been lynched.
Cojin responded in a loud and angry way, therefore: Cojin is not scum.

I learned this lesson from the game I pointed you to.

Oh, you're generalizing from a single instance that didn't even involve Cojin. :muh: That explains why it was useless. There's no "typically" in one game, man.

If you still don't understand, I'll have to break out the crayons and construction paper.

Did you and havingfitz plan this at night? I don't know why you would it's just getting you both lynched

Ever heard of putting pressure on people? It's like... putting scum to L-1 and seeing if someone you suspect to be their buddy hammer, or putting a lurker to L-1 and seeing if the LaL trolls will have the guts to cast the final vote.

Nah:

Pan, stop sucking up to the mod >.>

Cojin, you're acting... weird. Freaking out and claiming PR when you're at L-2 and no one really wants to lynch you isn't TownCojin play...

I mean, I just read Newbie 908, where you pegged two scum in two days after a successful Doc protect; the only thing that messed up your game was vanilla fakeclaiming cop... The Cojin that's playing in this game definitely isn't the Cojin that's playing in that one...

Unvote, [L-1]Vote: Cojin

You're saying he's not playing like TownCojin.

NONONONONOBADBADBADHERESYBLASPHEMYNONONONONONONONO

k

Go on...

Your suspects keep changing and that negates something I thought I saw last week.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, you're generalizing from a single instance that didn't even involve Cojin. :muh: That explains why it was useless. There's no "typically" in one game, man.

But see, the generalizing thing worked. The specific thing was useless.

Did you and havingfitz plan this at night? I don't know why you would it's just getting you both lynched

You're saying he's not playing like TownCojin.

I'm so confused right now, and I'm sure you are too.

Your suspects keep changing and that negates something I thought I saw last week.

If you saw anything but a confused/lazy townie who has virtually nothing but a town read on himself, you're probably wrong.

[Acosmist]

If you saw anything but a confused/lazy townie who has virtually nothing but a town read on himself, you're probably wrong.

That's why I asked who else was scum ;_;

[Nachomamma8]

If anyone is really interested in another wallpost by me then let me know...otherwise I'll try to hold back.

JOY! I JUST NOTICED THIS POST!

Okay, so now that you've finally stopped wallpost fighting with Acosmist, you can start answering my questions and I can start being my normal, wonderful, protown self again.

First of all, why do you have a vote on me that you haven't advanced at all? No questions or anything make you seem damn sure of my guilt.

Also, since you think Acosmist is town, you must realize that all of his scumhunting is genuine. So why the incessant barrage of Ad-Hom attacks to discount any points he provides?

Also, your scum read on Pan apparates out of nowhere. Your only real suspect of yesterday was Cojin, so I'm guessing you find Pan to be scum because... she didn't want to lynch the claimed doctor like you did?

[havingfitz]

And joy...Acosmist has posted another wall, and bonus joy, it's full of misconceptions and inaccuracies.

Yeah how dare I quote your words to show the things you said!

How does it feel to be schooled by an MS n00b? Pretty bad, right?

Quoting me isn't a bad thing. Not comprehending what I'm saying and continuing to post inaccuracies is. As for schooled...your final grade will come when our flops become known and it will either be bad if you are town or good if you are scum.

If anyone is really interested in another wallpost by me then let me know...otherwise I'll try to hold back.

JOY! I JUST NOTICED THIS POST!

Okay, so now that you've finally stopped wallpost fighting with Acosmist, you can start answering my questions and I can start being my normal, wonderful, protown self again.

First of all, why do you have a vote on me that you haven't advanced at all? No questions or anything make you seem damn sure of my guilt.

I doubt if the wallpost fights have stopped but that’s my preference. My vote is on you for the reasons I gave when I placed it. I have not had a chance to add to it because I’ve been on vacation and otherwise engaged in this game. I have not seen anything from you D2 to make me want to remove it.

Also, since you think Acosmist is town, you must realize that all of his scumhunting is genuine. So why the incessant barrage of Ad-Hom attacks to discount any points he provides?

I don’t think anyone is town. Acosmist is just lower on my scum list. And even if he does end up being town and his ‘scumhunting is genuine,' town get it wrong sometimes...as evidenced by the flops of Lawls and Cojin. And I am not using ad-hom attacks to discount his points. I'm pointing out where and why I disagree with the points he is making and including any ad-hom comments for free.

Also, your scum read on Pan apparates out of nowhere. Your only real suspect of yesterday was Cojin, so I'm guessing you find Pan to be scum because... she didn't want to lynch the claimed doctor like you did?

It did not come out of nowhere...Cojin and Lawls and Acosmist lectures occupied most of my time D1 (and now Acosmist in D2) but I did find Panacea suspicious on more than one occasion and have had her in my top 2 or 3 for a good portion of the game. As for not wanting to lynch a the claimed Dr...she didn’t want to lynch anyone it seems and there were others who did not want to lynch Cojin as well who I am not focussing on at this time.

Vacation ends today...travel commencing shortly...should be back Sunday.

[Elementary Fermion]

And I am not using ad-hom attacks to discount his points. I'm pointing out where and why I disagree with the points he is making and including any ad-hom comments for free.

So you do not know what an

ad hominem

attack is, then? That fits with your meta of not knowing what words mean and consequentially being afraid of them. For instance:

Fact => if you [Acosmist] didn’t post like such a pompous ass with an obsession to prove yourself right when you are wrong, the walls of text wouldn't have been quite so large.

In this game, where figuring things out is important (and being right therefore likewise important), you accuse Acosmist of being a “pompous ass.” This does not help town. What it does is attempt to discredit what he has to say because you do not like the way he says it. That “reasoning” is so juvenile that most school children would not fall for it.

An

ad hominem

attack’s purpose is precisely to sidestep any legitimate points being made. If you cannot beat them, call them names. This is exactly what you do. Trust me, you have put enough character deficiencies on display that could serve as a basis for such attacks. However, Acosmist (whom I may discuss as he is in this game with us!) instead chooses to point out the deficiencies in your

statements

, not your

manner of providing the same

.

Also, Furry, if you are so very much convinced an Elementary Fermion bandwagon was the way to go on Day 1, where is your vote on me now? You could not possibly think that my role would change from scum to town overnight, could you?

It is always best to be voting someone who you think is scum, . . .

So what changed?

[Nachomamma8]

*sigh* I hate this. Right now, it would be optimum for a cop claim. BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE ACTIVITY FOR IT BECAUSE RF + BaB ARE LURKING!!!! Ugh.

Vote: Lawls

I hate this lynch, but it's all that's going to get through and Lawls lynch > No lynch.

I really don't like this post. At the time this was made Lawls was at L-1 and Pan had not voted yet. You dig for a last second Cop claim and basically switch from from one L-1 wagon to another. I like the *sigh* though...it adds that extra feeling touch.

Really don't like how Nacho handled the end of D1 though.

Vote: Nacho

Right now, this is your basis for voting for me, correct? I don't see this as enough to peg me as scum, so where are all of the questions to help you solidify your read? Don't you feel yourself dropping into the same pattern as yesterday and losing all of your time to wallbattling your top top read?

As for the accusation post itself, the cop claim dig is a bit weird, I'll admit, but it isn't scummy. I don't ask for a cop claim, and I don't out any cops. As for the rest of this, what was I supposed to do? Lynch the claimed doctor, don't lynch anyone, or lynch Lawls?

[Panacea]

Havingfitz, I dunno about Acosmist, but I'm still waiting for this:

Once Cojin claimed Doc his fate was most likely sealed, so not being the D1 lynch was a moot point that ended up being the best outcome for town (though I am somewhat surprised he survived N1).

what

I try to refrain from initiating wallposts but I find it difficult refraining from replying to them.

'Kay. So which is more important? Your win condition or your need to

insult

discredit

argue with Acosmist?

Does this question apply to Acosmist as well? Win condition of course.

The question was hypothetical and aimed to make a point, but if I was serious (and even though I wasn't, whatever) it would still be open to him. Apparently not all of our MS coding contains the "hide from every other player than the one addressed" button that yours does.

All of these quotes from Day 2 weren’t solid enough?

Not... necessarily, against the way you've been firing at him.

Considering you are right behind Nacho on my scum list it comes as no surprise to me that you find Nacho’s D1 actions forgivable.

Oh, shoot, you're right. As a townie I def should've falsified my responses to avoid suspicion.

Oh, and about that. See, your case on me is virtually assembled from the same stuff as the one on him. Which logically reduces his weight on the Nach-Fitz balance and dips you a little lower on my scumdar.

I've got to run for a bit on short notice. I'll pick this back up when I return, shall I?

FoS: Havingfitz

[Panacea]

What does the fact he’s voting me matter? Scum still have to be loving the exchange (whether Acosmist is among them or not).

... ... Er. I don't think I'm being clear enough, maybe? Acosmist is voting you, as in you're his prime suspect. As in he's

going

to investigate you, and it smells funny that you're trying to dismantle said investigation on the grounds of saying scum are enjoying it.

The debate may prove useful, but that remains to be seen.

Okay, we agree about that. We just having to have opposing opinions as to said utility.

Coming out of D/N1 I'm leaning against Acosmist being scum

...

slightly against EF as scum.

TBD on Ray. ATM, I'm thinking scum are within the BaB, Pan and Nacho group. Really don't like how Nacho handled the end of D1 though.

Vote: Nacho

You actually

said

that you thought Acosmist had a decent chance of being scum

, then you voted Nacho. Since then, you've been embarking on a novella against Acosmist and having fits on Elementary without moving your Nacho vote. Then you somewhat abruptly decide Acosmist is town and (along with yourself) distracting the rest of town from the hunt. This feels... weird...

Where did I say Acosmist had a decent chance of being scum (bolding by me)? This is a lie (unless I’m overlooking it in my ISO or not recalling it) and is in line with most of this post of yours...inaccurate and misleading.

Er, no it's not. Where you said it (and included in the post to begin with, lol) is bolded, italicized, underlined, and red. I promise you I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm beginning to wonder if Acosmist's jibe about whether or not you read the posts is correct.

WTH does “embarking on a novella” mean in relation to keeping my vote on Nacho?

It means you've had a vote out on Nacho all Day and you've spared him no attention in the face of constructing a novella of textwalls against Acosmist.

And what does my exchange with EF matter re: my Nacho vote?

Same reasons, except you even said you weren't feeling scum-Elementary (violet, lest we lose track of our own quotes again) before you gave him more attention than the recipient of your vote.

First of all, why do you have a vote on me that you haven't advanced at all? No questions or anything make you seem damn sure of my guilt.

Yeah, that.

[Acosmist]

I'd be especially interested to know if Furry still wants to lynch Cojin (no one spoil the ending for him!) and if Ellibereth has any plans to...post at all. Is there something about those player slots that makes you post a lot at first and then fade away into the background?

[Furry]

I'd be especially interested to know if Furry still wants to lynch Cojin (no one spoil the ending for him!) and if Ellibereth has any plans to...post at all. Is there something about those player slots that makes you post a lot at first and then fade away into the background?

Im not always super active over the weekends, once stuff gets going im usually in the more active few.

Also, Furry, if you are so very much convinced an Elementary Fermion bandwagon was the way to go on Day 1, where is your vote on me now? You could not possibly think that my role would change from scum to town overnight, could you?

It is always best to be voting someone who you think is scum, . . .

So what changed?

I dont vote untill im caught up, and if you have been following along, that explosion thingy made you read pretty heavily town to me.

~~~

Done with day one at this point, biggest question is why people didnt jump off the doctor claim. Fitz give about the worst justification though in "scum wouldnt kill him for WIFOM"

This is untrue, especially if there isnt a cop, because killing a pro-town and getting it blocked can pseudo-confirm cojin and does confirm the blocked kill player. The entire arguement is based on that incorrect logic, and even arguements that "he deserves it if he is town". Again incorrect since VI confirmed town are valueable.

Nacho trying to get a cop claim is almost worse, even though he got off the wagon. No matter what the setup, cop claim is bad. Cop-doc results in doc gets RBed, cop dies, doc cant prove anything as its the exact same result as cojin faking doc, cop dead, doc claim unverifyable.

At least a lynch happened. Town points to panacea for actually getting the ball rolling on that one.

~~~~

With luck I will be all caught up soon.

[Elementary Fermion]

I dont vote untill im caught up, and if you have been following along, that explosion thingy made you read pretty heavily town to me. . . . With luck I will be all caught up soon.

Thank you for taking the time to get caught up. I would think that this is especially important in this game, where so many personalities have been swapped in and out.

Done with day one at this point, biggest question is why people didnt jump off the doctor claim. Fitz give about the worst justification though in "scum wouldnt kill him for WIFOM"

I do believe that this is the argument that I have made and Acosmist has pounded into the ground. I find it very suspicious that havingfitz has yet to acknowledge this logic which renders his actions horrible.

[havingfitz]

Apologies all for the delay…got back yesterday from vacation and home internet has been problematic this evening…

Acos, could you do me a favor and just bullet point a quick list of why fitz is scum without all the quotes and stuff?

He is on the record wanting to lynch Cojin even if Cojin really was the doctor.

This comment is not true. If I knew “Cojin really was the doctor” I would not have voted for him. As I had no way of definitively knowing that Cojin was town/Doc I merely acknowledged it was a possibility he was town (see below)...

I'm keeping my vote on him because his game is rubbish. He has lurked, provide cr@p responses to question when he's bothered to answer them, and sought approval for his actions from the rest of the players. Could he be town? Sure. But if he is a doc as he claims to be.....I'm not even sure scum would bother killing him at night since surviving would make his claim even more doubtful. His play just warrants a lynch.

...and hypothesized on one possible outcome if he was in fact the doctor. I never said I would lynch him even if he was really the doctor. As I did not believe that to be the case and as he was my top suspect I voted him. Some of you may find this hard to believe, but when scum are cornered or threatened with elimination they will sometimes resort to making fakeclaims. That is what I believed to be the case with Cojin...my read on Lawls had started to shift, and there was no other strong scum suspect in my opinion at the end of D1 to push for a lynch of.

He willfully misinterpreted what Cojin was saying in his attacks.

He is doing the same thing with Elementary Fermion now.

Two of your points are that I willfully misinterpret things? I have misinterpreted things or needed clarification on points people have made but for you to say any of it is willful is insinuating something you have no way of knowing as a fact...which is scummy.

His continuing an argument he thinks only helps scum makes him anti-town by his own standard.

The fact I dislike wallpost exchanges and think they cloud legitimate scumhunting does not eliminate the need to engage in them on occasion.

He has spent most of the game trying to stifle discussion.

Wrong. I assume you are commenting on the fact that when I engage someone in a conversation or ask them a question I like to get their response...not have other people respond for them. Iirc correctly, when I have made comments to that affect I have still responded to the comments/questions posed by the person not originally being conversed with.

His next post will take issue with these summaries even though the points are argued fully in my other posts.

This comment is meant to discredit my comments in the minds of the rest of the town before the comments have even been made. For shame.
Also, points argued fully ≠ points argued accurately.

[havingfitz]

And I am not using ad-hom attacks to discount his points. I'm pointing out where and why I disagree with the points he is making and including any ad-hom comments for free.

So you do not know what an

ad hominem

attack is, then? That fits with your meta of not knowing what words mean and consequentially being afraid of them. For instance:

Fact => if you [Acosmist] didn’t post like such a pompous ass with an obsession to prove yourself right when you are wrong, the walls of text wouldn't have been quite so large.

In this game, where figuring things out is important (and being right therefore likewise important), you accuse Acosmist of being a “pompous ass.” This does not help town. What it does is attempt to discredit what he has to say because you do not like the way he says it. That “reasoning” is so juvenile that most school children would not fall for it.

EF...what is the purpose of your post above? How is it benefitting this game at all? I know what an ad hominem attack is. How are my comments on Acosmist’s posting style taking away from what he is saying?

My comments were based on posting style and had no bearing on post content or validity, which were both addressed without using any ad hominem attacks.

I would say a better example of an ad hominem attack would be your meta statement above regarding me. Or you calling Ellibereth a tool and a clown. Don’t you agree? Another good example would be saying someone is posting like a moron.

Done with day one at this point, biggest question is why people didnt jump off the doctor claim. Fitz give about the worst justification though in "scum wouldnt kill him for WIFOM"

I do believe that this is the argument that I have made and Acosmist has pounded into the ground. I find it very suspicious that havingfitz has yet to acknowledge this logic which renders his actions horrible.

I have acknowledged my actions and explained my reasoning in detail. Do you plan to do any scumhunting D2 or do you just plan to rest on your criticisms of Ellibereth’s scumhunting efforts and your continued reiterations of Acosmist’s charges against me?

[havingfitz]

*sigh* I hate this. Right now, it would be optimum for a cop claim. BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE ACTIVITY FOR IT BECAUSE RF + BaB ARE LURKING!!!! Ugh.

Vote: Lawls

I hate this lynch, but it's all that's going to get through and Lawls lynch > No lynch.

I really don't like this post. At the time this was made Lawls was at L-1 and Pan had not voted yet. You dig for a last second Cop claim and basically switch from from one L-1 wagon to another. I like the *sigh* though...it adds that extra feeling touch.

Really don't like how Nacho handled the end of D1 though.

Vote: Nacho

Right now, this is your basis for voting for me, correct? I don't see this as enough to peg me as scum, so where are all of the questions to help you solidify your read? Don't you feel yourself dropping into the same pattern as yesterday and losing all of your time to wallbattling your top top read?

As for the accusation post itself, the cop claim dig is a bit weird, I'll admit, but it isn't scummy. I don't ask for a cop claim, and I don't out any cops. As for the rest of this, what was I supposed to do? Lynch the claimed doctor, don't lynch anyone, or lynch Lawls?

You mean wall battling my top ‘town’ read? I prefer not to assign town reads and usually work in varying degrees of suspicion. We will have to disagree on whether your actions are enough to peg you as scum. You seem to be getting some negative attention from others for those actions as well so it’s not just me. I’m also taking your vote hopping the latter part of D1 into consideration as well.

[Ellibereth]

Acos, could you do me a favor and just bullet point a quick list of why fitz is scum without all the quotes and stuff?

He is on the record wanting to lynch Cojin even if Cojin really was the doctor.
He willfully misinterpreted what Cojin was saying in his attacks.
He is doing the same thing with Elementary Fermion now.
His continuing an argument he thinks only helps scum makes him anti-town by his own standard.
He has spent most of the game trying to stifle discussion.
His next post will take issue with these summaries even though the points are argued fully in my other posts.
Where are those stats you owe me?

*deletes spaces*
Thank you very much! The dog ate the stats up.
Yep yep, Pana is town.
SO THAT MEANS, scum are in NACHO, FITZ, FURRY. YAYZ

NACHO: Earlier you mentioned something about fitz/ray team and a good reason for it and you wanted me to find it. I gave up before I started. Tell me please.

[havingfitz]

Done with day one at this point, biggest question is why people didnt jump off the doctor claim. Fitz give about the worst justification though in "scum wouldnt kill him for WIFOM"

This is untrue, especially if there isnt a cop, because killing a pro-town and getting it blocked can pseudo-confirm cojin and does confirm the blocked kill player.

The entire arguement is based on that incorrect logic, and even arguements that "he deserves it if he is town". Again incorrect since VI confirmed town are valueable.

Furry…can you better explain your comment in bold above? How does your he deserves it if he is town comment relate to me? I don’t recall making statements to that effect. I’m voting the players I feel are scum though I am willing to accept the fact we get it wrong on occasion…as everyone (except scum) who placed a vote D1 did (ie get it wrong).

As for the worst justification…..I did not use my NK speculation (WIFOM) to justify my push for Cojin. I pushed for him because of his actions/gameplay and because he was my strongest scum suspect D1…and once he claimed, I thought he was fakeclaiming scum. Below are my comments regarding Cojin and his claim.

I'm keeping my vote on him because his game is rubbish. He has lurked, provide cr@p responses to question when he's bothered to answer them, and sought approval for his actions from the rest of the players. Could he be town? Sure. But if he is a doc as he claims to be.....I'm not even sure scum would bother killing him at night since surviving would make his claim even more doubtful. His play just warrants a lynch.

As for your doc claim...why should anyone believe you? There's no gaurantee there is even a doc in this game. And with the way you have played..there is no gaurantee you would be the N1 NK. If you are scum....why not claim doc? You have a 50% chance of not getting counterclaimed and your odds of getting lynched look/ed to be a lot higher than 50%.

There are scenarios where there can be RBers without a Doc and Doc's without a RB. If Cojin is scum...whether there is a RB or not...there would be no way of knowing for sure if there is a Doc. Either way...there's a 50% chance for scum to claim Doc and not get counterclaimed. Cojin is a L-1 now, and iirc was at L-2 when he claimed, so there is nothing to lose for scum to claim Doc. They either get lucky and not get countered because there is no Doc...or they get countered...get lynched like the scum the predominance of town thought they were...and scum gets to then get rid of the town PR that countered the Doc fakeclaim.

.......

Like I said...there is only a 50% chance that we even have a Doc...and you bring up a good point. Why counter if it looks like the person who is potentially fakeclaiming is going to get lynched anyway?

@Pan...I think your two posts may have had a few questions or inaccuracies/misconceptions in them. I'll try to get to them tomorrow.

[Acosmist]

This comment is not true. If I knew “Cojin really was the doctor” I would not have voted for him.

The

very post

you quote shortly includes a conditional with antecedent "If Cojin is a doc." If this antecedent is true at any world accessible from this world, the conditional "If Cojin is a doc, we should lynch him" is not necessarily true at that world. (If the antecedent were true at no possible worlds accessible from this world, then the antecedent is necessarily false at this world, so that the conditional is necessarily true at this world.) I think we'd all agree that if the antecedent can possibly be true, we should not necessarily lynch Cojin, as he is possibly the doctor. So the bizarre conditional you formed could be true

if you knew he was not the doctor

. Then his being the doctor would be impossible, and this perfectly vacuous conditional would be true (as would "If havingfitz is the serial killer, I will win a billion dollars" and any other conditional with an impossible antecedent.) You say you didn't know whether he was the doctor, but you certainly didn't (and couldn't) know he wasn't the doctor, which is what your strange logic requires for "let's lynch him" to be the correct result. I'm taking the correct semantics to be K with the reflexivity constraint, so each world access itself. So, from this possible world, where Cojin was actually the doctor, "Cojin is the doctor" was possible. In those possible worlds where he is the doctor, his play still warrants a lynch?

You're doing a clumsy job of covering your tracks.

As I had no way of definitively knowing that Cojin was town/Doc I merely acknowledged it was a possibility he was town (see below)...

Exactly! You acknowledged that there was a world accessible from this one where he is the doctor! Well, then, it is not true that we should lynch him, right? Or...otherwise, apparently, in your view.

I'm keeping my vote on him because his game is rubbish. He has lurked, provide cr@p responses to question when he's bothered to answer them, and sought approval for his actions from the rest of the players. Could he be town? Sure. But if he is a doc as he claims to be.....I'm not even sure scum would bother killing him at night since surviving would make his claim even more doubtful. His play just warrants a lynch.

"If he is a doc as he claims to be, I am not sure the scum would bother to kill him." So, if he's really a doc, the scum might target someone else, and one of those someone elses will be doc protected. But for giving us a chance to avoid a kill in this manner, "His play just warrants a lynch."

Everyone else gets what's wrong with this. Why don't you?

...and hypothesized on one possible outcome if he was in fact the doctor. I never said I would lynch him even if he was really the doctor.

You hypothesize he is the doctor and immediately after say his play warrants a lynch! Read your OWN POSTS.

As I did not believe that to be the case and as he was my top suspect I voted him.

No, for your logic to work, it had to be impossible for him to be the doctor, not merely possible for him not to be the doctor.

Some of you may find this hard to believe, but when scum are cornered or threatened with elimination they will sometimes resort to making fakeclaims.

You epic-fail at game theory if you think there was any danger of a fake doctor claim giving Cojin a free ride. We had him committed to a certain course of action, and no scum could keep the charade up forever. I get it, EF gets it. We are n00bs.

You

are supposed to teaching

us

.

That is what I believed to be the case with Cojin...my read on Lawls had started to shift, and there was no other strong scum suspect in my opinion at the end of D1 to push for a lynch of.

You have to believe pretty hard that Cojin was lying to think lynching him was the correct result. Not just that it was possible he was lying, but that he was so likely to be lying that risking lynching the doctor was ok with you.

Two of your points are that I willfully misinterpret things?

Gold star!

I have misinterpreted things or needed clarification on points people have made but for you to say any of it is willful is insinuating something you have no way of knowing as a fact...which is scummy.

I am saying it is willful because you willfully did it! When Cojin made a comment about the Panacea bandwagon, he spoke rather unclearly. He corrected himself immediately after. Long after that, as we argued back and forth day 1, you completely failed to comprehend what he was saying even after he and I explained to you what he meant. You kept up this misinterpretation of his words even after I explained very carefully what was going on, and you kept smearing him as incoherent. I told you what he meant, and you ignored it. Willful.

You keep saying I'm scummy, but you're not voting me? Uh...

The fact I dislike wallpost exchanges and think they cloud legitimate scumhunting does not eliminate the need to engage in them on occasion.

The exchange is doing no good to town that I can see and is only distracting other town from scumhunting and allowing scum to hide behind it.

"The exchange is doing no good to town" - your words, champ.

Wrong. I assume you are commenting on the fact that when I engage someone in a conversation or ask them a question I like to get their response...not have other people respond for them.

No, I am talking about your spending all of day 1 telling me to stop criticizing your case on Cojin, and your constant comments about the size of my posts.

And you have a weird view of mafia if you think only the person addressed can talk about a point. Seriously, this might not be the game for you.

Iirc correctly, when I have made comments to that affect I have still responded to the comments/questions posed by the person not originally being conversed with.

This is all in public. There is no such thing as "the person originally being conversed with," except at night. What do you know about

that

?

This comment is meant to discredit my comments in the minds of the rest of the town before the comments have even been made. For shame.

Actually, we all remember day 1 and your fetish for arguing with the summary rather than the substance of my posts. And you're doing it again. I'm discrediting your comments by pointing out how you engage in misdirection to avoid my points. You did it again. You responded to the summary instead of the substance. It seems like whenever anyone asks for a shorter version of my points, you take that opportunity to pounce on the softer target (the summary). All this is doing, you realize, is getting me never to summarize my points, ever. Ever. I'm done with it. It's all going to be drawn out from now on.

Also, points argued fully ≠ points argued accurately.

Yes, in general that is true. How about saying something about this game, right here, where a refutation of my points is not in evidence?