Open 212--Hard Boiled Mafia (Game Over)

[chauchaudotcom]

I forgot to:

Vote: Havingfitz (Mindgamer)

[farside22]

MMM - My first issue with MMM is most of the players he has suspicion are based on those who are suspicious of him.
herehere

this still reads that he knows bio was town.

this feels like panic at the votes saying it was too early for serious votes.

and this made BH scummy how?

calling one scum and the other not as bad with your reasons being that ythan is overly aggressive. His reason's for voting ray by the was was an ongoing game. I just didn't get your reason's for your vote.

In rereading MMM I wish he had expanded like this in the first place.

this post bothers me because he had stated suspicion on Ray and BH more then myself or mindgamer so why the sudden change?

I still scum vibes coming from MMM calling Ray nervous is laughable compared to reading MMM who comes across as nervous. I'm starting to learn that being nervous is more a null tell then scum tell.
I did not like that most of the people he had suspicion on were the one's attacking him. I usually see scum become more defense and attack players, attacking them.
Still leaning scum.

Semioldguy - He attacked ythan pretty hard core and McGriddle but doesn't seem to have any imput for the start of the day. I can't say he's been really scum hunting. The biggest case he had was on ythan and question McG.
So far feels under the radar. Needs to start posting more content. Right now null read.


In short my following suspects are MMM, Evil and Confucius

vote: MMM

[chauchaudotcom]

Bah. Vote analysis yielded me nothing.

Semi - Who are your top right now?

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.3:

Mysterious Mystery Man (2): Confucius, farside22
evilsnail (1): Deer
havingfitz (1): chauchaucotdom

Not Voting (5): evilsnail, havingfitz, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

[farside22]

Vote Count 2.3:

evilsnail (1): Deer
havingfitz (1): chauchaucotdom
Mysterious Mystery Man (1): Confucius

Not Voting (6): evilsnail, farside22, havingfitz, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

Pretty sure I have a vote on 326 to Mysterious Mystery Man. (MMM for short)

So you do. It will be fixed.

[havingfitz]

All...v/LA until tomorrow (travelling today on last day of vacation). Should start posting then.

[Confucius]

Mod: Please prod evilsnail and Mysterious Mystery Man.

~

Confucius I would like examples of evil doing what your saying.

Why don't you read evilsnail's posts in isolation and decide if my interpretation of his posts is accurate? There is not much to read from his posts.

Practically all of his posts explain or re-explain why he unvoted RayFrost and why he voted for Ythan over Mysterious Mystery Man. He largely comes to the thread only to answer questions posed towards him, hence he is not proactive.

Are you saying you see a connection between the two players or you find them scummy for seperate reasons?

There is an obvious connection between evilsnail and Mysterious Mystery Man. Namely, evilsnail claimed to be suspicious of Mysterious Mystery Man for the entirety of Day One, and yet his vote was continually on Ythan because “there was enough pressure on [MMM].”

~

That's some highly out-there reasoning, and I can very easily believe that post has gone by without comment. That's a very strong point you're making – that only scum get angry when voted by people not in the game – and unless you can provide specific evidence of it meaning what you say it means I don't see where your confidence in that 'tell' comes from.

I did not say that “only” scum get angry in that situation, but that scum are more likely to react in anger in that situation.

Mysterious Mystery Man's reaction to that particular vote was overly strong and was clearly written in anger. I have actually had that exact same thing happen to me as scum (twice in the same game from the same person), and my thought process went through the following:

1.)

Yell at that person in-thread;

2.)

Send that person an angry PM;

3.)

When anger rises, think of the consequences: ask the Mod by PM to tell that person to not post again, and perhaps make a joke about the vote in-thread.

It took me a moment to realize it was the best to ignore the vote, but I do think that scum seeing an “unfair” vote on them (drawing “unfair” attention to them) are quite likely to react more angrily than a townsperson.

Catching scum is all about deciding if you think posts are written by scum or town – the reasoning is not “out there.” That post looked like it was written by scum.

A question for you. You prefer a MMM lynch to an evilsnail lynch. How large is the margin between them in terms of your preference?

The margin is not wide, especially since I think the two have a very good chance of being scum-partners.

[farside22]

Why don't you read evilsnail's posts in isolation and decide if my interpretation of his posts is accurate? There is not much to read from his posts.

Practically all of his posts explain or re-explain why he unvoted RayFrost and why he voted for Ythan over Mysterious Mystery Man. He largely comes to the thread only to answer questions posed towards him, hence he is not proactive.

Are you saying you see a connection between the two players or you find them scummy for seperate reasons?

There is an obvious connection between evilsnail and Mysterious Mystery Man. Namely, evilsnail claimed to be suspicious of Mysterious Mystery Man for the entirety of Day One, and yet his vote was continually on Ythan because “there was enough pressure on [MMM].”

I saw these both myself after reading him in iso myself.

[Confucius]

farside22, if you "saw those both" after reading him in isolation, then why bother asking for examples? Are you trying to get me to make a more expanded case on evilsnail? What was your purpose?

[farside22]

farside22, if you "saw those both" after reading him in isolation, then why bother asking for examples? Are you trying to get me to make a more expanded case on evilsnail? What was your purpose?

Pretty sure it's because I was reading you first. I usually like to have people expand on things but since I found it myself and came to the same conclusion it is now a moot point.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

OK, who's voting me? Let me see...

@ Confucius:

Your first post strikes me as a scare tactic. “Don't vote for me, or one of us will be lynched!”

That was RVS. It's not my fault if you're stupid and/or have no sense of humor. Actually, if you had even read the post you are referring to, the joke was NOT that he was voting me, but that we were in two games in a row. Stupid, yes. Scummy, no.

I do not buy your explanation of Post 105. The chances of a scum being lynched on Day One is objectively 25%. Narrowing the lynch candidates down to a scum and a town increases the chance to 50%. It does not “make sense” as scum to limit lynches in such a manner.

OK, let me try and make this as simple as possible.

a) Bio Hazard cannot know, at that stage of the game, that I am scum. No way.

b) BH tunneled me from the start. Irrefutable.

c) Either BH is bad town, or he is scum, because good town would not tunnel on someone that early in the game.

d) Tunneling is considered a scumtell.

e) If BH is town, he clearly does not know that tunneling is bad form. I attempted to show him why. That was my reasoning for that post.

I don't understand the argument in the last couple of sentences. Are you saying that scum would likely play the odds that a townie is lynched? That would allow for more discussion, analysis, and eventually the scum would be caught.

Your post also jumps to an absurd conclusion. An early serious vote by one player does not by any means necessitate or make likely that one of those two players shall be lynched.

Sigh... missing the point entirely. The action that Bio Hazard took leads to one of those scenarios. In the real game, of course, things get complicated, and that's not the case. But the INTENTIONS are still the same. I was questioning BH's intentions for tunneling from the start, to which I see no good reason.

Even if your conclusion was somehow correct, your argument that “an early serious vote on you is bad for the town” is undermined by your very own parenthetical – it is good for the town “of course, if you are scum.”

?

If I'm scum, that makes Bio Hazard the best scum catcher in the universe. Why? Because he was able to catch me FROM MY FIRST POST!!!!!! HE'S GENIUS!!!!

OR....................................

It turns out I wasn't scum. In which case he's responsible for my lynch, in which case he's likely scum, in which case he's likely lynched. If he was town, the town is now down two lynches. Which is what I wanted to point out to him. His logic was weak, and not worthy of the intensity with which he pushed his argument.

I can hardly believe this post has gone by largely without comment. This is very much an overreaction. Who is more likely to be perturbed about being voted by somebody who is not a player in the game? The answer is scum, because it seems “unfair” to be caught by a player who should not be playing.

I'm not even going to dignify this with a response. You are arbitrarily assigning a motive to a mistake caused by the posting system on the site, and the lack of an updated player list.

@ farside22:

My first issue with MMM is most of the players he has suspicion are based on those who are suspicious of him.

Dealt with this before. My vote on BH was OMGUS, but it was RVS, and I kept it because he kept fueling my suspicious with tunneling. RayFrost, because he was acting nervously, and there wasn't much of in the way of scumtells at the time.

he knows bio was town

That post was made on the assumption that BH was town. It was an attempt to dissuade him from tunneling if he was town, since it was bad for town. It can just as easily be said that from the look of your post it seems you know I'm scum. What's up with that?

this feels like panic at the votes saying it was too early for serious votes

The statement about it being too early for serious votes was an impression I got from the tone of the discussion at the time. BH and RF were the only odd men out.

and this made BH scummy how?

Because he didn't scrutinize anyone else. He knew his target from the get-go, the rest was just trying to find bits of evidence to go along with the bandwagon.

calling one scum and the other not as bad with your reasons being that ythan is overly aggressive. His reason's for voting ray by the was was an ongoing game.

SYSTEM FAILURE

INSUFFICIENT LEVELS OF CLARITY

PLEASE UPGRADE SENTENCE TO SUIT MINIMUM READABILITY STANDARDS

In rereading MMM I wish he had expanded like this in the first place.

Curious. Above you said you didn't understand my reasons for voting Ythan.

this post bothers me because he had stated suspicion on Ray and BH more then myself or mindgamer so why the sudden change?

STRAWMAN ALERT! STRAWMAN ALERT!

The post was about who I wanted to ISO and analyse. I never made any indication that MG and FS22 were looking more scummy than BH and RF.

I still scum vibes coming from MMM calling Ray nervous is laughable compared to reading MMM who comes across as nervous.

Translation:

OK, MMM is scummy for thinking Ray was nervous. I think MMM is nervous.

Any questions, class?

I did not like that most of the people he had suspicion on were the one's attacking him.

Funny you should mention this, because I made a point earlier to BH about how since he was attacking me while the rest were chatting, he was more noticeable than the others. This was the case with BH and RF. They were attacking me for no good reason. The others weren't. Who was I supposed to take an interest in?

[semioldguy]

@chauchaudotcom
evilsnail is my leading suspect currently, but I'd really like to see some more posts from him first. Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me, but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned, and I am looking at you as my third suspect mostly for reasons brought up against you.

[evilsnail]

Still here, but rather busy IRL atm. Some of my other games ended recently, so I'll try to make more of an effort in the coming week.

[farside22]

I tunnel MMM I would post games in which I tunnel a person to death. It's a null tell.
Also it you want to try and reinterpret my post where I say it's laughable calling Ray nervous. I'm saying you seem nervous (period) With Bh and ray and how you responded to them it seemed like you were nervous.

I also said the following

I'm starting to learn that being nervous is more a null tell then scum tell.

Your reaction to the vote felt like panic.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.4:

Mysterious Mystery Man (2): Confucius, farside22
evilsnail (1): Deer
havingfitz (1): chauchaucotdom

Not Voting (5): evilsnail, havingfitz, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

[Confucius]

1.)

That was RVS. It's not my fault if you're stupid and/or have no sense of humor. Actually, if you had even read the post you are referring to, the joke was NOT that he was voting me, but that we were in two games in a row. Stupid, yes. Scummy, no.

You are referring to your first post of the game, namely Post 8. I was referring to your subsequent posts where you try to defend yourself. When I said “your first post,” I was clearly referring to the first post I was

quoting

in Post 304, where you tried to tell BioHazard that if he voted for you, one of you would eventually be lynched. In other words, a scare tactic to get BioHazard to stop voting for you. If you had read my post in context, this should not have been confusing for you.

2.)

a) Bio Hazard cannot know, at that stage of the game, that I am scum. No way.

b) BH tunneled me from the start. Irrefutable.

c) Either BH is bad town, or he is scum, because good town would not tunnel on someone that early in the game.

d) Tunneling is considered a scumtell.

e) If BH is town, he clearly does not know that tunneling is bad form. I attempted to show him why. That was my reasoning for that post.

Amusing fact: “tunneling” one the first few pages of a game is a synonym “pressuring.” And applying pressure gets reactions. Much like yours!

Your entire premise that "tunneling is considered a scumtell" is faulty. Even if it is, it was not applicable to BioHazard's posts simply because his first few posts of the game happened to be directed towards you. Tunneling is going through practically an entire game Day without taking one's eyes off of one particular player, which BioHazard did not do.

I don't understand the argument in the last couple of sentences. Are you saying that scum would likely play the odds that a townie is lynched? That would allow for more discussion, analysis, and eventually the scum would be caught.

->

a.)

On Day One, there are 9 townspeople and 3 scum. Therefore, there is an objective 25% chance of scum being lynched.

->

b.)

If BioHazard had been scum and your conclusion was correct (that “one of you would be lynched”), then the objective chances of a scum lynch would increase to 50%, because from your position, either you or BioHazard would have been lynched.

Hence, it

did not

“make sense” for a hypothetical BioHazard-scum to attack you when you actually apply your own reasoning.

In other words, your defense made no sense. You are unreasonably assuming that whenever a townsperson tunnels on somebody on Day One, both the townsperson and the person tunneled are eventually lynched. This is patently false.

3.)

I'm not even going to dignify this with a response. You are arbitrarily assigning a motive to a mistake caused by the posting system on the site, and the lack of an updated player list.

First, every time anybody ever calls something “scummy” or “townish” it is necessarily assigning a motive to the post. When I call your posts scummy, it is not arbitrary, but quite purposeful.

Second, there were no mistakes on the posting system of the site that caused you to make that post. jeffcole1's post introducing Nick2557 into the game was there for all to see, regardless of whether the first post was updated at that point in time. You clearly didn't see the post, because your eyes obviously went straight to the vote on you. Your reaction was swift and in anger. That is scummy.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

You are referring to your first post of the game, namely Post 8. I was referring to your subsequent posts where you try to defend yourself. When I said “your first post,” I was clearly referring to the first post I was quoting in Post 304, where you tried to tell BioHazard that if he voted for you, one of you would eventually be lynched. In other words, a scare tactic to get BioHazard to stop voting for you. If you had read my post in context, this should not have been confusing for you.

"Your first post" implies the first post I made, "The first post" could be taken to mean the post first quoted, but whatever...

Do you really think it was a 'scare tactic'? I was expressing how his tunneling was anti-town, and why I therefore found it scummy. It was clearly his intent to get me lynched, after only a few posts. That means that, regardless of what WOULD have happen, he was trying to get me lynched, and he must have known that that ran a risk of getting himself lynched.

Amusing fact: “tunneling” one the first few pages of a game is a synonym “pressuring.” And applying pressure gets reactions. Much like yours!

Your entire premise that "tunneling is considered a scumtell" is faulty. Even if it is, it was not applicable to BioHazard's posts simply because his first few posts of the game happened to be directed towards you. Tunneling is going through practically an entire game Day without taking one's eyes off of one particular player, which BioHazard did not do.

Sure, nothing wrong with pressuring a player you find scummy. But arbitrarily pressuring players? That looks scummy, even if it isn't. And I asked Bio Hazard if he really thought I was scum, and he said yes. That's when I got worried. This wasn't pressuring. Eventually, he stopped tunneling, and I stopped saying he was tunneling.

-> a.) On Day One, there are 9 townspeople and 3 scum. Therefore, there is an objective 25% chance of scum being lynched.

-> b.) If BioHazard had been scum and your conclusion was correct (that “one of you would be lynched”), then the objective chances of a scum lynch would increase to 50%, because from your position, either you or BioHazard would have been lynched.

Hence, it did not “make sense” for a hypothetical BioHazard-scum to attack you when you actually apply your own reasoning.

In other words, your defense made no sense. You are unreasonably assuming that whenever a townsperson tunnels on somebody on Day One, both the townsperson and the person tunneled are eventually lynched. This is patently false.

It made less sense if he was town, because he would only have a 25% of hitting scum with tunneling. Then, he would run the risk of one of us flipping town, then the other one getting lynched the following day.

First, every time anybody ever calls something “scummy” or “townish” it is necessarily assigning a motive to the post. When I call your posts scummy, it is not arbitrary, but quite purposeful.

Second, there were no mistakes on the posting system of the site that caused you to make that post. jeffcole1's post introducing Nick2557 into the game was there for all to see, regardless of whether the first post was updated at that point in time. You clearly didn't see the post, because your eyes obviously went straight to the vote on you. Your reaction was swift and in anger. That is scummy.

Some motives are more likely than others. Your 'reasoning' makes no sense. There was no mistake with the posting, I sent my post, then Nick's popped up on the bottom. I checked the player list, and he wasn't on it.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@ farside22: Your case yesterday hung on the theory that I was partners with Nick. Since that is clearly impossible, what new evidence makes me suspicious?

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.5:

Mysterious Mystery Man (2): Confucius, farside22
evilsnail (1): Deer
havingfitz (1): chauchaucotdom

Not Voting (5): evilsnail, havingfitz, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

[chauchaudotcom]

Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me, but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned, and I am looking at you as my third suspect mostly for reasons brought up against you.

What are these 'other reasons' for suspecting MMM?

And what points brought up against me? The hypocrite one?

Sure, nothing wrong with pressuring a player you find scummy. But arbitrarily pressuring players? That looks scummy, even if it isn't. And I asked Bio Hazard if he really thought I was scum, and he said yes.

That's when I got worried.

This wasn't pressuring. Eventually, he stopped tunneling, and I stopped saying he was tunneling.

=o....scumclaim?

Saying that he thinks you are actually scum is, in fact, a form of pressuring you. Why would you be worried if you aren't scum?

Mod: may we prod Deer please?

[semioldguy]

Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me, but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned, and I am looking at you as my third suspect mostly for reasons brought up against you.

What are these 'other reasons' for suspecting MMM?

I don't know what you mean by "other reasons" since I never mentioned "other reasons." I don't like many of the existing cases/reasons already against him, some of which I have specifically mentioned. One of the points I do see as potentially scummy I have also said in a previous post. Could you elaborate on what you are asking?

And what points brought up against me? The hypocrite one?

Not the hypocrite point. The fact that you have been asking questions and not following it up with much pointed out by farside22 and hitogoroshi. Looks like possible feigned scum-hunting/participation to me.

[chauchaudotcom]

I don't know what you mean by "other reasons" since I never mentioned "other reasons." I don't like many of the existing cases/reasons already against him, some of which I have specifically mentioned. One of the points I do see as potentially scummy I have also said in a previous post. Could you elaborate on what you are asking?

I was referring to this:

"Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me,

but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned

"

I thought it meant you had other reasons. But I realize I misinterpreted your post so ignore this question.

Why did you wait until now to comment on MMM's 105 post when farside made this accusation quite some time ago in d1?

Not the hypocrite point. The fact that you have been asking questions and not following it up with much pointed out by farside22 and hitogoroshi. Looks like possible feigned scum-hunting/participation to me.

Which questions have I not followed up on? I question things that are suspicious or off to me (or to get individuals to talk more so I can get a read on them). If it satisfies me, I move on. If it doesn't, I continue questioning and follow with a vote if necessary, or save it in my notes and keep my eye on that person. I'm curious as to why I am more suspect versus farside whos posts I've found to be full

Also, reading back:

Farside - What made you think orto is leaning scum but not Deer?

[chauchaudotcom]

Oops cut off.

" I'm curious as to why I am more suspect versus farside whos posts I've found to be full"

of a lot of stuff I find rather distracting/unecessary. She comments on everyone but doesn't follow up much on them either and always winds up going back to tunneling on MMM.

[farside22]

Farside - What made you think orto is leaning scum but not Deer?

I don't see anything close to what Ort did that deer has done. If you have please show examples.

[farside22]

MMM:

Curious. Above you said you didn't understand my reasons for voting Ythan.

I read in iso and respond to things as I read them. So even though I will say one thing that bothers me I will comment on things that explain it but still leave my comments as is.

STRAWMAN ALERT! STRAWMAN ALERT!

The post was about who I wanted to ISO and analyse. I never made any indication that MG and FS22 were looking more scummy than BH and RF.

Not sure how that is a strawman. I misread the post.
I saw this

Anyway, I still see Nick as scummiest. If we had more time, I might look into farside22 and mindgamer some more, but I'm comfortable enough with Nick for day 1.

Which has Nick as the scummies but wanting to read 2 others you never mentioned as suspecting them.
Where do you still stand with RF?

calling one scum and the other not as bad with your reasons being that ythan is overly aggressive. His reason's for voting ray by the was was an ongoing game. I just didn't get your reason's for your vote.

Rephrase: You called ythan scummier then Nick with your basis for ythan being that he was overly aggressive (I don't see this as a scum tell) I didn't like ythan bring up a current game as a reason for finding ray scum but it's not scummy in itself so I didn't agree with your reasoning or undrestand your vote on Nick.

MMM: Your also scummy to me because of you OMGUS nature where you attack RF and bio for attacking you.
Panic over votes. I haven't seen scum hunting from you. I have seen OMGUS cases or following.