Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Sando]

Still get a lot of BS vibes from the claim, but don't really see a downside in leaving Pom alive and testing for a few nights. Worst comes to worst, if we still don't trust the claim in a few days, we can lynch. If scum, we really haven't lost much, if she's telling the truth, we've at least got some confirmed townies.

[Porochaz]

I agree,

unvote

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yeah you know what I agree too.

Unvote

Vote Sando

. Either you are stupid, or you sir, are scum.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Pom's claim is fucking bullshit. Sando is scum with her, so is Espeonage. All three scum for you wrapped up nice and tight. Lynch them now.

[Seraphim]

I want to remind people of a few things:

1. The theme of the game. Each role has a weak and a strong mode. We knew this already. But I also want people to take note of the name of the game, which is KARMA MAFIA. And Karma is a BITCH. There is no doubt some sort of penalty for using the strong version too often. Therefore, if we have Pom hide using strong mode, she endangers the town from what we know of the theme.

2. How often Hider is used as a scum claim. Hell, I've used it myself, in OGML's Bleach Mafia. It's almost as common as doctor, and probably would be as common if it wasn't such a rare role.

3. I'm still not sure what we stand to gain from not lynching her today.

[farside22]

I want to remind people of a few things:

1. The theme of the game. Each role has a weak and a strong mode. We knew this already. But I also want people to take note of the name of the game, which is KARMA MAFIA. And Karma is a BITCH. There is no doubt some sort of penalty for using the strong version too often. Therefore, if we have Pom hide using strong mode, she endangers the town from what we know of the theme.

2. How often Hider is used as a scum claim. Hell, I've used it myself, in OGML's Bleach Mafia. It's almost as common as doctor, and probably would be as common if it wasn't such a rare role.

3. I'm still not sure what we stand to gain from not lynching her today.

Hehe I used hider as a claim too as scum but I was a GF and wanted to explain why I couldn't be night killed and even did a soft claim the night before claiming.
Good times, good times.

Any ways If someone does something continuously in strong mode what could be the downfall (or karma) that happens. It's WIFOM.

I'm still waiting for Pom to respond to my post with my suspicion.

[Sando]

So Sera, you think that if Pom were town, leaving her alive and using her ability basically in a best-case scenario for that role is anti-town?

[dybeck]

I want to remind people of a few things:

1. The theme of the game. Each role has a weak and a strong mode. We knew this already. But I also want people to take note of the name of the game, which is KARMA MAFIA. And Karma is a BITCH. There is no doubt some sort of penalty for using the strong version too often. Therefore, if we have Pom hide using strong mode, she endangers the town from what we know of the theme.

Yeah... I've been wondering about this since Pom explained her role. I suspect that there will be some element of scum benefiting from whatever powers are used against them. For example, if Pom hides with a scum, a scum gets to hide themselves.

If this

is

along the right lines, then I don't think it does much harm in discussing it - since scum will already know how it works...

vote: Sando

. Now THERE is a wagon that feels right.

[Sando]

You seriously can't see what's wrong with Sera's reasoning and apparent conclusion?

[Jahudo]

I thought using strong mode too much could potentially hurt the player, but not everybody. I guess either is possible. Plus, what's the downside of her only using weak mode?

[Porochaz]

I thought using strong mode too much could potentially hurt the player, but not everybody. I guess either is possible. Plus, what's the downside of her only using weak mode?

This, except although its mod WIFOM it would work on a points based system and that you needed to keep below a certain quota to not be "punished"

[curiouskarmadog]

K, rechecked my Role PM.

Weak Mode:
-I die if the person I hide with is targeted with a kill.
-I die if I hide with scum. This therefore confirms farside, because I hid with her last night.
-I die if I'm targeted with a kill.

There seems to be absolutely no point to this role besides "confirming" town which is strangely convenient.

Not to mention Hider is a favorite scum fakeclaim.

Can someone lynch this lying scum?

I agree somewhat...but if she is telling the truth, a.) she will be offed..b.) it will provide a ton of information.

That being said, the “hider” part of that role doesn’t make any since in weak mode….

She could hide behind one of 4 people we think are scummy. She dies and they don't boom we have instant scum.
That's if you believe her claim. I'm sitting on the fence on it. She never responded to my post with my reason's either which bothers me as well.

farside, can you tell me why this isnt a good idea? Using a claim hider to test for scum.

What if she was to go into strong mode - and we have her hide behind someone. Under the assumption she's not scum the scum can't kill her as her role could be re-directed to one of them. Rit? That's assuming I understand her role correct.

you are assuming a lot here....

Why did you "hide" behind me? So the only down fall if you are weak is if your targeted you will die?

I hid behind you because I had a town read on you, and I didn't want to hide with scum.

did you crumb this in any way?

I am fine with getting more information....scum wont want to let a hider who can confirm townies alive very long. I am not for her telling us who she hides behind before she does it..most likely pom, this is just an extension on a lynch....for you to contirubte to the game. I am fine with postponing your lynch for a few days to let you prove your worth and maybe actually get some decent info. But your information is useless until we know your alignment.

Also,

Unvote, vote Sando.

Sando, did you kill our vig?

[curiouskarmadog]

the more I think about it....the more I still think Pom is scum...and the claim is fake....back and forth on it....

I dont know if I can swallow the claim, but I know I dont like those (farside faraday) trying to dicate how she uses her role before she uses it. I think she needs to use it how she deems fit. She will have to answer for those decisions.

[Faraday]

Eh, yeah having thought about it there's no way to truely confirm the role I guess. I've seen hider as scum claims a few time, iirc CKD did it in Emerald City

Pom's basically a weak cop in weak mode, and then becomes a regular hider in strong mode.

I dont know if I can swallow the claim, but I know I dont like those (farside faraday) trying to dicate how she uses her role before she uses it. I think she needs to use it how she deems fit. She will have to answer for those decisions.

If we're keeping her around I'd prefer to direct her though. I don't see why we should leave it up to her own judgement. We'll probably never be able to fully trust her anyway, will we, so if we were to keep her around trying to confirm specific people might be more helpful.

[curiouskarmadog]

faraday, explain to me why it is wise to direct her how to use her role so mafia knows how to manipulate the role?

[Faraday]

What info do we get if she dies hiding behind someone? We've no idea who she'd have hid behind so we'g get nothing. At least by directing her this becomes possible.

[farside22]

CKD: I have issues with the claim because I don't see how hiding in weak really is that big of an issue. Basically she dies if shot in weak mod.
I'm still having issues with Pom not answering my questions and many people (including myself) find her scummy. If she did what I suggest

farside22 wrote:
She could hide behind one of 4 people we think are scummy. She dies and they don't boom we have instant scum.
That's if you believe her claim. I'm sitting on the fence on it. She never responded to my post with my reason's either which bothers me as well.

She's a good townie helping us find scum. I see no reason not to do this because many (including yourself) still find her suspect and talk about lynching her later down the road. However if she goes looking for those that she finds scummy. She dies without claiming who she is checking but giving at least 3 or 4 people it narrows things down.
I do have concerns for a RB which makes the investigations from her an unknown factor. Or a busdriver.
Pom will be the most unknown factor because we will WIFOM ourself.

[dybeck]

What info do we get if she dies hiding behind someone? We've no idea who she'd have hid behind so we'g get nothing. At least by directing her this becomes possible.

Faraday: It doesn't work. Scum could just nk her target and Pom will die too. That's why I retracted my suggestion that we direct her.

[Faraday]

What info do we get if she dies hiding behind someone? We've no idea who she'd have hid behind so we'g get nothing. At least by directing her this becomes possible.

Faraday: It doesn't work. Scum could just nk her target and Pom will die too. That's why I retracted my suggestion that we direct her.

Let me think on this, I thought for a second this wouldn't be a bad thing. I mean wcs we get rid of scummy pom who we're unsure of anyway and I'd assuming we['d get her to investigate people we feel are likely to be mafia anyway, so we'd be forcing the scum into a sub optimal kill just to knock off 2 people?


Eh I guess scum pr's fuck this up since we don't know what they have though so fair enough.

[dybeck]

Let me think on this, I thought for a second this wouldn't be a bad thing. I mean wcs we get rid of scummy pom who we're unsure of anyway and I'd assuming we['d get her to investigate people we feel are likely to be mafia anyway, so we'd be forcing the scum into a sub optimal kill just to knock off 2 people?

This is the scummiest thing I've ever read in my life.

Scum KNOW who's scum and who's not. Just because we think somebody might be scum, doesn't make them less of an asset if they are town.

You're condoning the idea of giving mafia a two-for-one kill, at least one of which is a power role.

And if the person we get Pom to target IS scum, then we lose her for free anyway.

unvote, vote: Faraday

Also, while I'm here, I'm going to hazard a guess at the setup. I wonder whether when town power roles choose to use a night action, scum have the option of using the same night action against town.

We might have a better idea of whether this makes sense as town PRs die and we get more idea of what power roles are in the game - but until we do, I'd advise power roles to consider the repercussions of their night choices.

If this IS true as far as the setup's concerned, I'm not altogether sorry about losing a vig...

[Faraday]

This is the scummiest thing I've ever read in my life.

Scum KNOW who's scum and who's not. Just because we think somebody might be scum, doesn't make them less of an asset if they are town.

You're condoning the idea of giving mafia a two-for-one kill, at least one of which is a power role.

Uh not sure how the first paragraph is all that relevant to what I said. And I'm not 'condoning' the idea, I'm saying if the scenario you happened described I'd not be overly upset. As it'd be getting rid of two scummy players, which I don't see as a bad thing.

The fact the mafia will have wasted their kill on someone we may have lynched doesn't upset me, so yeah, I've no idea how you can find that scummy.

I think there are too many massive holes in the plan anyway having thought it through properly.

As for your second part, that i didn't bother quoting re: the set-up. Eh I could see it, altho giving scum a potential double kill would be very strong.

[boberz]

Have a feeling if Pom isnt scum, I am gone tomorrow.....Pom, your ass better be scum.

Why did you have this feeling?

[Patrick]

Votecount

Pomegranate (5) -- RichardGHP, Seraphim, Espeonage, Anon, Amished
Porochaz (1) -- Javert
Espeonage (2) -- Pomegranate, Sando
NickF227 (1) -- Ojanen
Sando (2) -- Albert B. Rampage, curiouskarmadog
Faraday (1) -- dybeck

Not voting: farside22, Faraday, boberz, NickF227, Jahudo, Porochaz
18 alive, 10 to lynch.

Deadline: 1st of May

[Espeonage]

I see the case on Sando but I REALLY don't like Poms 'fake' claim.

[Sando]

Dybeck, how many times do you want to misinterpret this?

In your 'worst case' scenario, of Pom hiding behind a town and scum getting a double kill, we end up in exactly the same position as if we lynch Pom now and scum NK that person, yet we 'gain' todays lynch of Pom back. Also, for scum to do that, we're basically directing their kill for tonight.

So in your worst case scenario where scum NK 2 townies, we in fact get back the lynching today of a townie... If you implicitly believe the claim, then yeah, it might be sub-optimal play, but do really 100% believe the claim?

CKD, what exactly are you voting me for? I expect random votes from ABR, but you posted a whole lot against others, basically call Pom, Faraday and Farside scummy for the whole claim things, then only mention me to vote me.