Open 212--Hard Boiled Mafia (Game Over)

[semioldguy]

Why did you wait until now to comment on MMM's 105 post when farside made this accusation quite some time ago in d1?

Because I didn't notice it, or that the point had been made until just now.

Which questions have I not followed up on? I question things that are suspicious or off to me (or to get individuals to talk more so I can get a read on them). If it satisfies me, I move on. If it doesn't, I continue questioning and follow with a vote if necessary, or save it in my notes and keep my eye on that person.

I read their observation and agreed with it when looking back through the game. Many of your posts contain questions but many times they don't lead anywhere or I don't see the purpose in asking some of the questions you do. They seems to be for the purpose of simply asking a question rather than to analyze an answer.

I'm curious as to why I am more suspect versus farside whos posts I've found to be full of a lot of stuff I find rather distracting/unecessary. She comments on everyone but doesn't follow up much on them either and always winds up going back to tunneling on MMM.

I don't completely agree with your assessment of farside22. A lot is unnecessary, but that comes with tunneling which isn't specifically scummy, and I don't see her posts as being distracting. Posting things about everyone but not following up is not the same as asking questions and not following up. I don't see you two as doing that in the same way.

What are your thoughts about Confucius who is also tunneling on Mysterious Mystery Man and whose posts appear about as equally unnecessary to me as hers?

[havingfitz]

All...v/LA until tomorrow (travelling today on last day of vacation). Should start posting then.

Take two....got back late yesterday and home internet was down most of tonight. Will try to get some content posted tomorrow. Apologies for the slooooow start.

[Confucius]

Do you really think it was a 'scare tactic'? I was expressing how his tunneling was anti-town, and why I therefore found it scummy. It was clearly his intent to get me lynched, after only a few posts. That means that, regardless of what WOULD have happen, he was trying to get me lynched, and he must have known that that ran a risk of getting himself lynched.

Your problem: You assume because somebody votes for you, that their intent is to lynch you, and that there are no other possible motivations.

Votes are the best means through which townspeople can apply pressure, absent a power role. Pressure gets scum to crack and make mistakes. Votes do not stay on players forever and for all time. Votes change. Opinions change. There is no reason to be “worried” from a “serious vote” on you on

page two

of the game.

There was no mistake with the posting, I sent my post, then Nick's popped up on the bottom. I checked the player list, and he wasn't on it.

That is interesting in itself.

If I am reading your post correctly (and correct me if I am wrong), you are claiming that NickF227 made his post while you were in the process of writing your post, such that you would have seen NickF227’s post in “preview” mode.

If that is true, then since NickF227’s post was 2:08 p.m. forum time, you spent over half an hour writing up Post 155, which registered at 2:40 p.m. forum time. Do you normally take that long to write up a single paragraph?

If that is not true, then you had absolutely no reason to miss Post 151, which was not only a post from the Mod, but a post that was written in bold, and colored in purple. The post was not even edited, so you cannot claim it “said something else” at the time you posted. I think the likeliest explanation is that your eyes went immediately to NickF227's vote on you, and you obviously didn't bother to read any of the posts preceding it with any detail. I think that had NickF227 voted for somebody else, you probably wouldn't have had such an angry reaction.

~

I would sure appreciate it if evilsnail would actually post something so I can get in a conversation with him.

~

FoS: semioldguy.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.6:

Mysterious Mystery Man (2): Confucius, farside22
evilsnail (1): Deer
havingfitz (1): chauchaucotdom

Not Voting (5): evilsnail, havingfitz, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

Deer and hitogoroshi have been prodded.

[hitogoroshi]

Sorry about that long, long absence. This game hit me at a bad time, and I wouldn't have joined it were it not for the specific replacement request.

Here is some long overdue iso fun.

Deer

(who replaced someone who never posted so I'm not going to bother looking up the name)

Not too much to say here, sadly. He replaced in, said a few things, not too much to get a read off of. One thing that strikes me as fairly significant is his dropped suspicions on mindgamer. Deer, is this just because fitz replaced in, or...?

Also,

By the way, is it too WIFOM-y to look at BH's suspicions of MMM as any sort of tell?

I'm not one of those people who think all nk analysis is scummy, but it's important to try to distinguish kills with purpose and WIFOM kills - and, as hard as it sounds, it's possible to make a pretty good guess on which one you're dealing with. As I said before, I don't really thing MMM as scum would have legitimate been worried about Bio's suspicions on him, and, if town, MMM strikes me as

exactly

the sort who would feel as though he was being framed and post as such in the thread, which would in terms engender calls of "He's scum and 'framed' himself to point it out" and fill the thread with garbage.

A digression between isos. While I have yet to do MMM's iso, I have to point out my dislike of MMM's large post starting with "OK, who's voting me? Let me see... ". MMM: this is a game where people vote for you, and sometimes they're not even scum. It raises my hackles when your first instinct is to condescend towards people with suspicions of you. Yes, they could be scum trying to get you mislynched, but it's never the case that there is a player no townie has reason to be suspicious of, and when your first instinct is to cast aspersions upon those casting aspersions on to you, it worries me. Yes, it's important to defend your positions, but it's more important to find the scum with those positions, and I don't like that you've found time to sneer at your attackers but not time to vote.

But back to the show:

evilsnail

I thought that, with the suspcion proffered in-thread, I would find more about evilsnail scummy. But to be honest, I'm not really seeing anything scummy. It'll take me having a full awareness of the gamestate (read: when I finish every ISO) for me to ascribe a possible scum or town motivation to his fews, but I can't see him straying far from the neutral in either direction off of his actions so far.

farside22

This all checks out as fairly solid town. In particular, she makes a salient point on evilsnail in that it's a bit iffy that with two equal-sounding cases, it doesn't make too much sense to vote the LESS popular one. I missed that point looking at snail myself (as you can tell by reading the paragraph directly above this one) but it makes sense. Whatever else you want to say, farside is paying attention, and (besides my personal belief that someone paying strict attention is more likely town) this is enough that I'm happy leaving her be for the moment.

Next ISOs will be up lord-knows-when, but the gap won't be as large as last time.

[chauchaudotcom]

I don't see anything close to what Ort did that deer has done. If you have please show examples.

Well in my opinion, both of contributed virtually nothing of use in my view. So a primary concern of mine was how you came to the conclusion that Ort is leaning scum but not Deer seeing how you're in agreement that they are both contributing little and lurking.

I read their observation and agreed with it when looking back through the game. Many of your posts contain questions but many times they don't lead anywhere or I don't see the purpose in asking some of the questions you do. They seems to be for the purpose of simply asking a question rather than to analyze an answer.

You missed my initial question. Out pf the questions I have asked, which ones give you this impression? Please show what posts or iso #'s these are.

I don't completely agree with your assessment of farside22. A lot is unnecessary, but that comes with tunneling which isn't specifically scummy, and I don't see her posts as being distracting. Posting things about everyone but not following up is not the same as asking questions and not following up. I don't see you two as doing that in the same way.

Ah...you misunderstood me. To clarify, I never regarded farside as scummy. I merely pointed out that her posts have a lot of unnecessary stuff in it which distracts me from getting a good read on her because reading through her posts become an exceedingly tedious task. Which may also serves for being a scum shield.

You made the distinction between the two but why is one more of a scum tell then the other? They indicate nothing in terms of alignment, merely two different styles of play.

What are your thoughts about Confucius who is also tunneling on Mysterious Mystery Man and whose posts appear about as equally unnecessary to me as hers?

It's not a scumtell. It's not good play either though. However, Orto posted nothing but fluff so that's why Conf's is still in my top three right now. But Conf is, overall, giving me a better vibe then Orto did. My eye, of course, is still on him but I actually agree with most of his points on MMM's play. Just not his conclusion that MMM is scum.

Being that as it may, I agree that the same MMM argument has been rehashed one too many times. But also, taking into account the fact that we're still waiting on players/replacements, I can't really blame him for concentrating on the only suspect he has that's actually available for questioning. You can't really pursue people who aren't here.

FoS: semioldguy.

I agree, though, probably for different reasons. But, I wouldn't know because you seem to have forgotten them.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.7:

Mysterious Mystery Man (2): Confucius, farside22
evilsnail (1): Deer
havingfitz (1): chauchaucotdom

Not Voting (5): evilsnail, havingfitz, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

evilsnail has been prodded.

[havingfitz]

Ok, have read through and taken a close look at vote patterns. Didn’t take notes through the read but will go back and look closer (ISO) a few people that caught my attention/suspicions (chau & MMM).

MMM’s attempt to cast suspicions (erroneously IMO) towards mindgamer seemed odd to me and he garnered a lot attention from most of the players (including all three of the confirmed/deceased townies), so I want to make sure I understand where those suspicions are coming from.

Chau...because of her vote to hammer Nick. I see very little if anything in the way of suspicions from her towards Nick so the cavalier hammer to close out D1 seems very scummy to me. When her vote was still on MMM, MMM and Nick were both at L-2. Her unvote off MMM made Nick the leading bandwagon close to the end of D1, which garnered an equally suspicious L-1 vote from Ray leading to chau’s ‘helpful’ no-lynch avoiding hammer.

Soooo....for now,

Vote: chauchaudotcom

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

Do you really think it was a 'scare tactic'? I was expressing how his tunneling was anti-town, and why I therefore found it scummy. It was clearly his intent to get me lynched, after only a few posts. That means that, regardless of what WOULD have happen, he was trying to get me lynched, and he must have known that that ran a risk of getting himself lynched.

Your problem: You assume because somebody votes for you, that their intent is to lynch you, and that there are no other possible motivations.

Votes are the best means through which townspeople can apply pressure, absent a power role. Pressure gets scum to crack and make mistakes. Votes do not stay on players forever and for all time. Votes change. Opinions change. There is no reason to be “worried” from a “serious vote” on you on

page two

of the game.

Again, I asked Bio Hazard's intentions, and he claimed he thought I was scum. That implies that he was intending to lynch me.

There was no mistake with the posting, I sent my post, then Nick's popped up on the bottom. I checked the player list, and he wasn't on it.

That is interesting in itself.

If I am reading your post correctly (and correct me if I am wrong), you are claiming that NickF227 made his post while you were in the process of writing your post, such that you would have seen NickF227’s post in “preview” mode.

If that is true, then since NickF227’s post was 2:08 p.m. forum time, you spent over half an hour writing up Post 155, which registered at 2:40 p.m. forum time. Do you normally take that long to write up a single paragraph?

If that is not true, then you had absolutely no reason to miss Post 151, which was not only a post from the Mod, but a post that was written in bold, and colored in purple. The post was not even edited, so you cannot claim it “said something else” at the time you posted. I think the likeliest explanation is that your eyes went immediately to NickF227's vote on you, and you obviously didn't bother to read any of the posts preceding it with any detail. I think that had NickF227 voted for somebody else, you probably wouldn't have had such an angry reaction.

I wrote the post, left the computer, came back, sent the post, noticed Nick, checked the player list, added a rebuke, and sent the post. Exactly how are you having trouble understanding this?

~

I would sure appreciate it if evilsnail would actually post something so I can get in a conversation with him.

~

FoS: semioldguy.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

havingfitz looks scummy. The logic of his last post only works if CC.com and myself are scum together. CC.com and myself talked quite a bit toward the end of the day, so it's understandable she'd change her mind. Also, deadline was imminent, so her choice was lynch Nick or no-lynch. I don't see how she can be blamed for that.

I ISO'd Mindgamer, and noticed he was attacking everyone, although subtly, and found this little gem:

Using your Vote only to back up your Voice is a waste of your Vote.

Can't believe I missed that before. Very weird.

[chauchaudotcom]

I can't argue much against me hammering. I didn't believe MMM was scum and a mindgamer wagon wasn't happening so Nick was the next best bet. No lynch = only scum controlled information from the NK. Which is something I avoid at all costs.

Fitz - What're your thoughts on semi?

[semioldguy]

You missed my initial question. Out pf the questions I have asked, which ones give you this impression? Please show what posts or iso #'s these are.

I didn't miss your question, it just doesn't have the specific answer you are looking for. I'll start with ISO 4 through 7. You ask a string of questions while not really adding any content or interpretation of the answers you receive.

Ah...you misunderstood me. To clarify, I never regarded farside as scummy. I merely pointed out that her posts have a lot of unnecessary stuff in it which distracts me from getting a good read on her because reading through her posts become an exceedingly tedious task. Which may also serves for being a scum shield.

You made the distinction between the two but why is one more of a scum tell then the other? They indicate nothing in terms of alignment, merely two different styles of play.

Then you misunderstand me. It isn't your style of play that I primarily find suspect. It isn't what you are posting that I mostly find suspicious, it's what you aren't posting. A playstyle of asking questions is fine, but are you going to tell me that your playstyle is asking questions and not looking at the answers you get? Walk me through your thought process for a couple of those questions.

Going back up to your ISO 4 through 7, could you show and tell me what each answer you got to those questions told you about those players? What sort of potential answers would you have been expecting from town? From scum? What are you looking for in each of those questions?

When I look for scum, I don't look for actions. I look for plausible motivations. I am interested in the "why" behind the actions. Why do you ask the questions that you ask or what are you looking for in asking them? My perception is that a town player asks questions to gain information which she can analyze. That is the motivation: to ask questions to gain reads on players. I look at your questions and don't always see that as the most likely motivation behind asking the question.

[havingfitz]

havingfitz looks scummy. The logic of his last post only works if CC.com and myself are scum together. CC.com and myself talked quite a bit toward the end of the day, so it's understandable she'd change her mind. Also, deadline was imminent, so her choice was lynch Nick or no-lynch. I don't see how she can be blamed for that.

So people can't be blamed (viewed with suspicion) for hammering someone they haven't voiced suspicions of? The hammer vote to avoid a no lynch has immunity? Good to know.

Where does my logic point to you and chau being scum together (which could very well be the case). I just mention you both have got my attention. Couldn't my post also infer chau and Ray/hito are scum together?

@chau....how have you been? Semi did not jump out at me in my first quick read. If/when I get a chance to look at him closer I will provide my thoughts. What are your on him?

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@ havingfitz: I thought your logic was that CC.com would prefer to lynch Nick than myself, which, from a scum perspective, would only be logical if we were both scum. That doesn't really make sense though, since she was already voting me. But, unless I'm wrong, your point is that scum would prefer a lynch to a no-lynch. But town prefer that as well. So, I'm having trouble seeing why you think CC.com's hammer was scummy.

[Confucius]

Mod: Please prod Deer and evilsnail.

I wrote the post, left the computer, came back,

sent the post

, noticed Nick, checked the player list, added a rebuke, and

sent the post

. Exactly how are you having trouble understanding this?

1.)

You cannot "send" a post twice. This is something I am having trouble understanding, and I have asked you to clarify this a couple times now.

2.)

The fact that NickF227 may not have been on the front post's list of players does not explain how you apparently missed Post 151, and Post 152, both of which made it clear that NickF227 was replacing into the game. Those posts were made over

three and a half hours

before you "sent" Post 155.

My main concern is obviously: how did you miss these posts?

I

think you missed those posts because your eyes just darted to the bolded words that included

you

as a person being voted.

Your play this entire game shows that you are more concerned about "who is voting for me?" over "who is scum?"

And that is scummy.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@ Confucius: I clicked on submit, and it went to the preview screen because the computer was inactive for so long. I saw only the most recent post, Nick's. But for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. I KNEW Nick had replaced into the game, and yet decided to insult him ANYWAY. Can you please give a good motive as to why I'd do this?

[Confucius]

But for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. I KNEW Nick had replaced into the game, and yet decided to insult him ANYWAY. Can you please give a good motive as to why I'd do this?

Mysterious Mystery Man, you are not understanding my argument.

I think you did

not

see that NickF227 replaced in. The question is: why? There is really no excuse for missing the mod's announcement, followed by NickF227's confirmatory "I'm here" post.

I think the most likely explanation is that you were not actually bothering to read the posts in the game, but that your eyes instead focused on the fact that you saw a vote on you from a player who you did not remember being in the game, and you immediately reacted in anger.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.8:

Mysterious Mystery Man (2): Confucius, farside22
chauchaudotcom (1): havingfitz
evilsnail (1): Deer
havingfitz (1): chauchaucotdom

Not Voting (4): evilsnail, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

Seeking replacement for Deer.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@ Confucius: I gave reasoning for why I did not see the mod's announcement. This so called 'scum-tell' is ridiculous, as even if I did react because I was angry at the vote, how does that make me scum?

Your play this entire game shows that you are more concerned about "who is voting for me?" over "who is scum?"

No evidence for that. I've been scum-hunting, but every time I find someone suspicious, someone else starts breathing down my neck.

Is this the only point you have against me?

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.9:

Mysterious Mystery Man (2): Confucius, farside22
chauchaudotcom (1): havingfitz
evilsnail (1): Deer
havingfitz (1): chauchaucotdom

Not Voting (4): evilsnail, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, semioldguy

Only one post all day? That's not looking good for your deadline...

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

Vote: havingfitz

Just to speed things up. I seem to be the most active player for this game, so I'll be able to quickly unvote if required.

[farside22]

Sorry I have been so quiet. I had to replace in another game in exchange for someone replacing in my game. I will be back here today with more input.

[Confucius]

@ Confucius: I gave reasoning for why I did not see the mod's announcement.

No. No, you have not. Are you asking me to believe that when you wrote up your single paragraph in Post 155, that you did so

before

Post 151, made over three and half hours before your post?

If that is your explanation, then I do not believe it. Simply because you think you have “explained” something, that does not mean the argument against you magically disappears.

I think you are scum. All three townspeople who are dead were all voting for you yesterday, and clearly thought you were scum. Today, it seems somehow impossible to get a wagon against you at all, and I think that is because scum are refusing to vote for you.

Your play this entire game shows that you are more concerned about "who is voting for me?" over "who is scum?"

No evidence for that. I've been scum-hunting, but every time I find someone suspicious, someone else starts breathing down my neck.

There is

ample

evidence of this. Just skimming over your posts:

1.)

You start the game being concerned with BioHazard’s vote on you.

2.)

You then vote BioHazard because he was building a case on you.

3.)

After RayFrost votes for you, your two top suspects are BioHazard and RayFrost, and you are sure to include that there is “nothing OMGUS about what [you’re] doing.”

4.)

You then say BioHazard should unvote you, or you both will be lynched.

5.)

When NickF227 enters the game and votes for you, you somehow miss the fact that he replaced in, call him a “moron,” and tell him to leave the game.

6.)

You make a post with your thoughts on players. Your scum reads are: Bio Hazard (town, voted for you), evilsnail (said he would vote you if he weren’t voting Ythan), McGriddle (town, voted for you), NickF227 (town, voted for you), RayFrost (voted for you).

7.)

You then attack chauchaudotcom for voting for you. The cases on you are “built on nothing.”

You have been trying this entire day to make it seem like there are “no points against you,” and that is simply not the case. You are playing like scum who jumps every time he is voted, and you are constantly trying to make it appear as though whenever you respond to anything, the point against you is no longer valid.

I think you are scum. I think evilsnail and semioldguy are your partners. semioldguy purposefully tried to get away from taking a stance on evilsnail when I asked him a direct question about evilsnail. Today, he is accusing me of “tunneling” on the sole fact that my second suspect (evilsnail) is not around for me to question. semioldguy’s posts look written to try to downplay my posts and therefore downplay my suspicions, and I think it is because my suspicions are dead-on.

semiolguy claims to have a top two suspicions, and yet he is not even voting right now. What are you afraid of? Why can't you put your vote where your mouth is?

What are your thoughts about Confucius who is also tunneling on Mysterious Mystery Man and whose posts appear about as equally unnecessary to me as hers?

My posts are quite the opposite of “unnecessary,” and the fact that you are going to these lengths to paint my posts.

semioldguy, I also find it patently ridiculous how your top two suspects are my top two suspects (see Post 336), and yet my posts to you are "tunneling and unnecessary." If you think I am attacking

scum

, how are my posts unnecessary when I am covering a subject-ground that this town has somehow completely ignored up until this point? And how am I supposed to attack evilsnail at any length when he obviously is not here to respond?

Scum team acquired.

~

As an alternative scum-team, I can see Mysterious Mystery Man + semioldguy + farside22. farside22 also claims to be in agreement with my top two suspects, and yet slots me as the third scum suspect. Today, she has a tendency of voting for evilsnail over Mysterious Mystery Man, despite the fact that she was willing to vote for Mysterious Mystery Man yesterday when there was a counterwagon on NickF227.

Finally, Mysterious Mystery Man has exactly two “town” reads on people who have voted for him over the course of the game, who are both semioldguy and farside22 (see Post 222).

[Confucius]

He who waits learns much.

*sips tea*

[Confucius]

A couple corrections:

My posts are quite the opposite of “unnecessary,” and the fact that you are going to these lengths to paint my posts...

... tells the tale.

As an alternative scum-team, I can see Mysterious Mystery Man + semioldguy + farside22. farside22 also claims to be in agreement with my top two suspects, and yet slots me as the third scum suspect. Today, she has a tendency of voting for evilsnail over Mysterious Mystery Man, despite the fact that she was willing to vote for Mysterious Mystery Man yesterday when there was a counterwagon on NickF227.

My mind mixed up farside22 and Deer here -- farside22 indeed voted for Mysterious Mystery Man; it was Deer who voted for evilsnail.