Mini 219: Tom Cruise Mafia -- It's a Wrap!

[MeMe]

Count

:

Johnny, Combo Player

(4):

Dragon Phoenix, Seol, Astronaut, Fuldu

WindSlicer

(3):

Talitha, inHimshallibe, Phoebus

Talitha

(1):

Johnny Combo Player

Not voting (2):

CoolBot, WindSlicer

No extension.

[Seol]

I can't think of a reason Coolbot would come out with this if he were scum, but by the same token, I can't think of a reason halfpint would have put a vote on inHim if Johnny was counterclaiming her role.

I can. With our doc dead and two nightkills night 1, Johnny was almost a lock for being nightkilled. Given that, why would halfpint put herself in the firing line? Better to wait until she has more results, and let Johnny's corpse speak for itself.

[inHimshallibe]

Here's an idea - Let's not lynch either one of them, as I don't feel like voting out a potential cop. If JCP is telling the truth, he will most likely be a target tonight. If he's not, well, we can sort through this Day 2. I personally like the vote on WindSlicer. Notice not only Coolbot, but the vote jumpers, too, if Johnny is telling the truth.

Sway me from this position, and I'll put the Johnny's lynch status beyond reasonable doubt.

[Seol]

Here's an idea - Let's not lynch either one of them, as I don't feel like voting out a potential cop. If JCP is telling the truth, he will most likely be a target tonight. If he's not, well, we can sort through this Day 2. I personally like the vote on WindSlicer. Notice not only Coolbot, but the vote jumpers, too, if Johnny is telling the truth.

Sway me from this position, and I'll put the Johnny's lynch status beyond reasonable doubt.

Why would Coolbot lie? If he's scum, he's sacrificing himself when he knows he can get rid of Johnny anyway. It makes no sense for Coolbot to counterclaim at this point unless he's telling the truth.

Why would Johnny lie? He was about to be lynched, and he needed a claim to keep himself alive. Notice how quickly the bandwagon dissipated when he claimed. It makes perfect sense for Johnny to have come up with that claim if he's scum.

One of them is lying. It only makes sense for one of the possible candidates to be lying - Johnny. So he's scum. So let's lynch him.

[Talitha]

I agree. Unless MeMe put 2 John Andertons in the game (and I can't think

why

she would) the safe money is definitely on Johnny.

unvote: windslicer
vote: Johnny

Nice attempt though, you nearly pulled it off.

[inHimshallibe]

For bragging rights.

unvote; vote: Johnny

. Terminated.

[MeMe]

"Shit. I think he's dead."
"Good guess."
"You killed him?"
"No, I voted him. Rope and gravity killed him."
--

Collateral, more or less.

Johnny, Combo Player

aka

Vincent

,

Vigilante

, is on the wrong side of a killing today.

It's now Night 2. Choices are due by

11 p.m. EST Sunday, September 11

.

[MeMe]

CoolBot

aka

John Anderton

,

Day Cop

, was beaten to a bloody pulp last night. His days of stopping criminals before they can act are over.


You'll also have to do without the services of

Dragon Phoenix

aka

Ethan Hunt

,

Cop

. Too much medication has taken him out for the count.

Just seven of you left -- that means four votes are all I need.

[inHimshallibe]

So much for bragging. [/shoots self in foot]

I'll gather my thoughts for a post tonight.

[Talitha]

Crumbs, what a terrible night!

This calls for a re-read.

[Dragon Phoenix]

[Phoebus]

Here's the thing.

vote: Windslicer

to keep him interested. It's about time he committed to something. His stand yesterday was that he would comment once there was somethign to comment about. So a re-read and last night's deaths should give him plenty to talk about.

The remaining players alive:
Astronaut
Fuldu
inHimshallibe
Phoebus
Seol
Talitha
WindSlicer

I paid careful attention to halfpint and DP's posts in my re read.
We speculated what halfpint's italicised vote meant. After that vote and a subsequent unvote, she maintained that the only person she had a read on was inHim, who was innocent.

inHim:
We've already seen one pro town person lie but I don't see a reason why inHim would lie about being a mason. halfpint's faith in Him (;)) would seem to corroborate the fact.

Now maybe we should discuss the merits of letting inHim reveal his partner? A voting bloc would be quite useful at this time I think. I must admit to not having seen many TC movies beyond Minority Report and the MI ones. I do have some knowledge of the premise of the few of the others though. McDeere was a lawyer? Who would be his partner? Alternatively, is there another lawyer role?

Astro:
He's been setting off buzers for a while now. I still don't like his unvoting of DP and the subsequent explanation. It can definitely be perceived as currying favour for later.
However, he attracted a number of votes at various times from various people. DP however seemed to have had no intention of voting for him, while he freely tagged on his votes elsewhere. DP's comments about Astro being weird but not necessarily scummy makes me think he might have been DP's night one target.
Given his behaviour though, I'd mark him as being a possible Godfather.

Talitha:
Nothing about her has struck me as scummy until her previous post. One could argue it was a tell. One could argue that there was truth in her statement and a natural reaction. Both could be right. I only wonder if DP didn't ping Tal on night one. A scummy Tal is a dangerous one. Her behaviour would indicate otherwise though. Another (lower possibility) candidate for GF?

Now remain Fuldu and Seol who have both been posting characteristically different from usual. I think Fuldu just might be busy because he seems to be the same elsewhere. Seol is being funny. He started out quietly, became verbose in the middle and then petered out again. Allow me a little meta gaming where I can definitely say that Seol has not really lost any of loquaciousness as his performance in a certain other game indicates and thus, it just strikes a weird chord with me.

If/when/unless WS comes up with something decent, my vote shall move towards the last of these two. Astro next.

[Seol]

I paid careful attention to halfpint and DP's posts in my re read.
We speculated what halfpint's italicised vote meant. After that vote and a subsequent unvote, she maintained that the only person she had a read on was inHim, who was innocent.

And the role being "Day Cop" means we can be pretty sure that the unvote was due to an investigation.

Wait a sec. "We" speculated? Who's "we"? There wasn't any in-thread speculation, apart from by Coolbot - who

was

halfpint.

inHim:
We've already seen one pro town person lie but I don't see a reason why inHim would lie about being a mason. halfpint's faith in Him (;)) would seem to corroborate the fact.

Now maybe we should discuss the merits of letting inHim reveal his partner? A voting bloc would be quite useful at this time I think.

There is one possibility which we should bear in mind - it's possible that inhim was a GF. If he is, then mason's a very good claim for him - he could name one of his partners, get further corroboration, and probably exclude themselves from the lynch that day. If we started with three Mafia - which, with two cop roles, a doc, the world's stupidest vig (sorry Johnny, but it needs to be said) and a mason group too, is somewhat likely - we could well be on lynch-or-lose today. So we need to be very careful about making assumptions like this.

I must admit to not having seen many TC movies beyond Minority Report and the MI ones. I do have some knowledge of the premise of the few of the others though. McDeere was a lawyer? Who would be his partner? Alternatively, is there another lawyer role?

Is speculating on roles wise?

Astro:
He's been setting off buzers for a while now. I still don't like his unvoting of DP and the subsequent explanation. It can definitely be perceived as currying favour for later.
However, he attracted a number of votes at various times from various people. DP however seemed to have had no intention of voting for him, while he freely tagged on his votes elsewhere. DP's comments about Astro being weird but not necessarily scummy makes me think he might have been DP's night one target.
Given his behaviour though, I'd mark him as being a possible Godfather.

Talitha:
Nothing about her has struck me as scummy until her previous post. One could argue it was a tell. One could argue that there was truth in her statement and a natural reaction. Both could be right. I only wonder if DP didn't ping Tal on night one. A scummy Tal is a dangerous one. Her behaviour would indicate otherwise though. Another (lower possibility) candidate for GF?

Interesting that you say you suspect one of Astro or Tally were investigated, but then point out they could be a GF - but don't consider that possibility in respect of inhim, who you consider cleared by halfpint. A curious omission.

FOS: Phoebus

Seol is being funny. He started out quietly, became verbose in the middle and then petered out again. Allow me a little meta gaming where I can definitely say that Seol has not really lost any of loquaciousness as his performance in a certain other game indicates and thus, it just strikes a weird chord with me.

I just haven't had much to talk about so far, and I've been posting intermittently in most my games recently - I'm verbose when I have something to say, and quiet when I don't, and day 1 here was one of the driest I've seen. Not something I'm proud of - I'm going to cut back a bit on the volume going forward.

[WindSlicer]

I will go back and reread and provide some input, but today and the following day or two I'm swamped with work.. if I can I'll see if I can stop by and contribute asap. Sorry.

[inHimshallibe]

In my opinion, Mafia claiming mason is suicide, GF or not. Because I hold such beliefs, my suspicions immediately jump toward Seol. Although, on a tangent of a comment by Seol, I think Phoebus might be fishing.

As far as my partner goes, I'll need to hear some solid support before I reveal. Of course, my partner may take the liberty to reveal themself at any time, and then, yes, we'd have ourselves a bloc.

Eagerly anticipating WindSlicer's revelation.

[Phoebus]

Seol:
The day cop is not a regularly used role. It might have certain limitations but the way I see mafia mechanics work, the GFs have no police record for the cops to check or no skeletons in their closets for snoops to find at night. During the day, if someone were to pick your pockets, you might not have been all that careful.

I admit to not having thought that inHim could be GF but somehow, the day cop does not lend itself to me as being fooled by the GF. Why do I think that? I don't know. I just do.
This is all ofcourse based on the assumption that there IS a GF. *shrug*

As far as the "we" part goes - I look at/play my games thinking as if we're all sitting in a circle like in Real Time. I did not look up who commented on the italics, no. However, I remember that someone mentioned it and I agreed with that point. Actually, agreed more on how that was weird. Given halfpint/CoolBot's now-revealed role, it becomes interesting.
Therefore, we, as a town.
If you want to harp on the semantics of that, please be my guest. If you're going to nitpick, you're going to look suspicious. The simplest sort of explanation? I imagined a link with the Bot and agreed. Therefore, we agreed. How do you like that?

And no, let's not speculate in a mafia game please.

Oh and you can't stop talking. How do we tell when you're scum or not?

inHim:
Wanna call it fishing? OK.
*shrug* But the very point of putting forward baldly a statement like "the merits of revealing inHim's partner" means that you're not completely and totally cleared in my book. No. More so than most. I think I can have a little faith in MeMe not including the GF mason. I just prefer to have all bases and possibilities covered.
Since Seol was so much into the semantics of other things, it's interesting to me that he has overlooked the possible implications of having a mason reveal themselves.

Oh and Seol - stupid vig or not. He's dead. There've been two kills both nights.
Lynch or lose? Don't think so yet.

unvote: WindSlicer ; vote: Seol

What do you know/are trying to cover up?
Or am I being picky about the semantics now?

Oh and before you say - lynch or lose for the town, let me cover that as well since no evil people have died, they can still take potshots at each other. I'm not ready to despair yet.

[Astronaut]

Vig claiming cop and faking role name? That's a new one... I somewhat understand the reason behind it, but he had to go down in flames eventually.

A re-read is required before I start throwing votes around, but with the last few posts, I think I know where to look.

FOS: Phoebus and Seol

[Seol]

Seol:
The day cop is not a regularly used role. It might have certain limitations but the way I see mafia mechanics work, the GFs have no police record for the cops to check or no skeletons in their closets for snoops to find at night. During the day, if someone were to pick your pockets, you might not have been all that careful.

I admit to not having thought that inHim could be GF but somehow, the day cop does not lend itself to me as being fooled by the GF. Why do I think that? I don't know. I just do.
This is all ofcourse based on the assumption that there IS a GF. *shrug*

Of course. If there is a GF, and GF in this case means investigation immunity, that GF's immunity might not work against the investigations of a day cop, the mechanics of which we are unaware, and the target of which we cannot be certain. Maybe this isn't the most fruitful line of discussion?

As far as the "we" part goes - I look at/play my games thinking as if we're all sitting in a circle like in Real Time. I did not look up who commented on the italics, no. However, I remember that someone mentioned it and I agreed with that point. Actually, agreed more on how that was weird. Given halfpint/CoolBot's now-revealed role, it becomes interesting.

My impression is that Coolbot's comment suggests that the italicised vote was

not

a role mechanic or an indication of halfpint's investigation target, otherwise his comment served to undermine hints towards very important information that he was aware of. If that's true, halfpint could have investigated

anyone

.

Therefore, we, as a town.
If you want to harp on the semantics of that, please be my guest. If you're going to nitpick, you're going to look suspicious. The simplest sort of explanation? I imagined a link with the Bot and agreed. Therefore, we agreed. How do you like that?

It wasn't "harping on the semantics". It might have been a slip of the tongue referring to night-time discussions and analysis you may have performed as part of a group. That fits your post better than your explanation - but your explanation is both simpler and credible. It's not huge, and it's not concrete, but it's noteworthy, as is the aggressive and evasive tone of your response.

And no, let's not speculate in a mafia game please.

I'm presuming that's sarcasm. The reason I think it's a bad idea to speculate on viable name-claims for the Masons is because we might be handing a believable fake claim to scum. That would be a bad idea.

Oh and you can't stop talking. How do we tell when you're scum or not?

Isn't that what the game's all about?

inHim:
Wanna call it fishing? OK.
*shrug* But the very point of putting forward baldly a statement like "the merits of revealing inHim's partner" means that you're not completely and totally cleared in my book.

Even when a mason

is

totally cleared, it's still worth thinking twice about revealing the partner. Plus, the fishing is, I suspect, more in reference to the rolename fishing than the partner identity fishing.

No. More so than most. I think I can have a little faith in MeMe not including the GF mason. I just prefer to have all bases and possibilities covered.

And that was exactly my point. inhim isn't totally cleared. But I'm less concerned with him being a GF mason than him not being a mason at all, and even that I think is unlikely. It just needs to be borne in mind.

Since Seol was so much into the semantics of other things, it's interesting to me that he has overlooked the possible implications of having a mason reveal themselves.

The implications of having a genuine mason reveal themselves are very good. The implications of having a scum corroborate another scum's fake Mason claim and to take that on trust could be catastrophic. So it's a good idea to tread carefully and consider the worst-case scenario.

Oh and Seol - stupid vig or not. He's dead. There've been two kills both nights.

So there's two killing groups. That's fairly standard. What's your point?

Lynch or lose? Don't think so yet.

That doesn't mean there aren't three Mafia, which seems fairly standard for a 12-man mini. If we lynch wrong, there's six alive going into night with three Mafia and an SK. Under those circumstances, the town needs a doc (and we've got a dead doc), a vigilante (and we've got a dead vig) or a roleblocker to win. Even then, the odds are horrible.

If there's only two people in the Mafia, the situation's a whole lot better.

Oh and before you say - lynch or lose for the town,

Interesting that you draw a distinction between "lynch or lose" and "lynch or lose for the town". Another semantic argument? Or another inadvertent Mafia tell?

let me cover that as well since no evil people have died, they can still take potshots at each other. I'm not ready to despair yet.

And, um, if we lynch Mafia we're lynching correctly. It's when we don't lynch Mafia that we have a problem. That's what lynch or lose

means

, so how on earth does that "cover that"?

vote: Phoebus.

[Talitha]

I'm here but all your words look like blobs on the screen. be back when I'm not tired.

[inHimshallibe]

Yes, I meant fishing for rolenames.

[MeMe]

WindSlicer has asked to be replaced due to "unforeseen circumstances" which are limiting his game time.

Yosarian2 has agreed to step into the role, effective immediately.

[Yosarian2]

Hello everyone. MeMe just asked me to replace windslicer, so I'm in as a replacement for him now. I'll have more to say once I have a chance to read the game, which should hopefully be tommorow.

[Talitha]

Welcome Yosarian, thanks for replacing.

I haven't managed to read over yet, but I think we should take this day slowly anyway.

I still have inHim marked as a POI (person of interest). When I read over I'm going to asking myself whether I think DP had info on inHim. The fact that DP didn't believe the mason claim stands out in my mind. A partner coming out would make me slightly more comfortable with the claim, but I won't be 100% convinced unless a dead mason turns up.

[inHimshallibe]

Which is probably exactly why I didn't die last Night.

[Yosarian2]

Alright, after a quick skim of the thread, here are some general comments.

1. I'm not sure what a "day cop" is. From the discription, "he stopped crimes before they happened". Perhaps some kind of roleblocker or doc, then? I really wonder about the choice of words, though. If he's a day roleblocker or doc, would that imply the existance of a day-killer, or am I reading to far into this?

2. I don't really see anyone who looked terribly suspicious in yesterday's lynch. After Jonney was caught lying about his role-name, his lynch was inevitable. No useful tells there that I can see. If Jonney had been scum, I would have been suspicious over some of Talia's "Oh, he's probably just a newbie" attitude; but as it turns out, she was actually right about that. (A forum mafia newbie, anyway; chat mafia tends to be a lot more fast and loose about fake roleclaims from townies, from what I've seen).

3. I've got to say, I'm most suspicious of Phobes right now, because I just don't like the way he's throwing around votes so easily in a possible lynch or lose scenerio. If there's one rule I've learned, it's that if you are town you should NEVER drop early quick votes like that in a possible lynch or lose scenerio, because the mafia could build a quick bandwagon out of that.

Even if we're not in an actual lynch or lose situation, I think we can expect that there is at least 2 scum and 1 SK or 2 groups of 2 scum each, so with only 4 votes to lynch, any incorrect bandwagon could quickly lead to a mislynch if scum from different groups or scum+SK jump on it, and no matter what the exact setup is, we're definatly in a situation where if we mislynch the good guys will be a minority tommorow. So I would expect that a GG, especally an experenced player, would be more careful with his votes then Phobes has been so far today; Phobes voted for windslicer (me) just to "keep him interested" and then quickly switched the vote over to Seol right after Seol accused him. I wouldn't have a problem with those kind of votes on a day 1, but with the situation we're in now I do NOT think that it's the time or place to throw votes around so carelessly.

fos:Phobes

. Phobes, if you are town, I would strongly request that you unvote and wait until we've had some discussion before you vote for anyone else.