Newbie 940 - Game over

[AurorusVox]

[quote=Pulindar]AV Interesting, but nothing new.

[quote=AurorusVox]
Notice how earlier he asked if cussing/getting angry was allowed --- and then, out of the blue, gets really angry...[/quote]

That's a good point. Are you going to follow up on it?[/quote]

I'm willing to see the (alleged) fruits of his "method" before I do anything specific. I don't think that voting him now (I think this is what you're asking about) will give me any more information at this present time.

[hiphop]

Pulindar- Something was bothering me about one of your first posts. And it finally hit me as I replacing a fence yesterday. This is it:

mmm last thing, I found out the Town tell Nacho gets from me and I now try to mix it up in all my games. I'm only semi successful, but suffice it to say that there was not the right circumstance for Nacho to tell my alignment yet anyway.

IMO you are saying that you have a towntell that you purposely use when you are scum, and when you are town. That is very anti-town. It is your job as scum to blend in your town game, but not as town to blend in something tha twill help your scum game. So why, when you are town, trying to blend your scum and town game, and purposely dropping tells that will only help your scum game? This will only cause confusion, on your true alignment, and it will hurt the town.

fos

This is bad... Very Very Bad. Replacing out means nothing. of my 7 completed games I replaced into 6 of them. 4 I was town aligned, 2 scum aligned. one of the four I was a power role. Odds seem pretty good in my mind for normal games. I have replaced at L-1 as both scum and town. (I won both of those games and survived too ) Replacing means nothing any way.

This is what I should have given, personal experience. I have replaced into 4 newbie games. One is on-going, so mum is the word, but the other 3 I only been vanillas. When I asked to be a replacement, I ask than I read the thread. So I consider all three to be random replacements. So just because someone places out, even in a suspicious spot, does not mean that they are scum. I am glad that Sb is no longer using it as part of his case.
--------------------------------
Die

How about a third option? I see half of the players here are, in some way, more experienced than the others. You guys have been nice ICs for us, but at the same time you guys have been quite agressive on 2 newbies. Easy targets.

It would be good to start considering this 3rd option: we can have 2 experienced players in the mafia.

Die, I don't like this. If you think some people are tunneling call them out. Don't make a general statement. I am a person. No different than you. Is it not reasonable to say that newbies will make more slips? So wouldn't than more people attack them? What would happen if we didn't say anything? Do you think that they would not do the same thing again? In my first game, I was hit hard, by scum and town. I have learned that some things make someone scummy, and I prefer to let scum do them. I recommend that you read this post made by vrk(scum)[yes VRk, I am still quoting that quote, one of the best quotes I have ever seen, that applies to a newbie] in one of my first games. Believe me this is something that applies to you.

What do you think of of Thor's case against SB?

What do you think of SB's response?

Why do you think that newbies should not be attacked?

Your opinion is vital in moving the game foward.

Also take into account that Jerako, and SB (Two newbies), are attacking an easy target(also a newbie). Do you have a problem with that, or do you think that sometimes mistakes are because someone is scum?
----------------
SB

Sb 198- I don't intend to quote post 198, but here is my response.
Let's go back to post 182 Since that is the post in question. I am not going to quote it because I don't want to misrep (that is what SB is accusing me of). This way anyone can go back to that entire post and the posts around it, by just clicking the link.

So how is it that when you say in the second paragraph in the second sentence, "when day 2 rolls around I can get a read on others." If you are only going have one read on one player and say you will get reads on others when day 2 rolls around, are you not set in your ways? I don't care if you are a noob(saying so, is nothing, but an AtE) or not, it doesn't matter, you want to lynch Sauron now, without having reads on anyone else. Can you not get reads on people now? If you can get reads on [no] certaintly you can get reads on others. You have an opinion, now what do you think of others?

It is exactly my point that you are refering this in relationship to scum-hunting. Scum-hunting is the only way scum are caught, yet you are saying you won't do it till day 2 i.e getting reads.

You have an opinion, that is the first part in scum-hunting. Take a look at the quote by vrk that I made above. Don't tell me that you don't already have an opinion of everybody. Which means you must have some reads on them.

i saw the part, that you didn't want to shoot the gun, but tell me, do you believe with as many people voting for [no] and the fact that you didn't have any other reads, that your opinion of [no] was going to change? I have read the posts. What I have stated above is what I believe the posts truly means. That you truly wanted to vote [no] without appearing in any way scummy.

post 202- No i don't think you are being aggressive. Thor is being aggressive. You are being passive, by asking everybody what they think before you move. It is like you don't want to do anything that people will bark at you about. Take a look at your case on [no]. You have one thing that he did wrong, and the rest is "I agree with Jer." What exactly do you agree with Jer's case?,

lurking Do you think that I am intentionally not posting, and/or posting minimal in my posts? Though I have to say that as scum I do lurk.

post 208- i have a habit of commenting on the current discussion, as well as giving my opinion on it.. It is either
a)noise(because some people think they should repeat their argument over an over, when someone tries to clarifies) or
b)scum-hunting
The first should not happen. As for the second, why shouldn't players give their opinion in the matter.
------------------------
Thor

Did you consider this a test for a scummy reaction? What about it did he 'take well'?

Nope, just a test of his reaction as a human being.

The fact that he actually said he was glad I had more experience. Instead of just ignoring it.

Do you find that the best way to gauge me is ask a single question, on the reasons of the info that I chose to share about my experience?
---------------
Pul

1.Do you think Die and Silver make a good team?
2.Have you seen any reason to draw them together?
3.Is there anything that makes you think they would not be on the same team?
4.What about Thor and one of them?
Lastly, do you really believe the contradiction you mentioned?
If so, could you please restate your reasoning differently because the way you explained it did not make sense to me?

Questions one, two, three, and four, I refuse to comment on. Looking for partners before the lynch of scum is nothing, but setting up lynches. That is anti-town. I would be nothing better than Sb in the fact that I have my lynches set, but still want the day to go on. It causes the day to stagnate, as well as muddying the waters. If you want to ask what I think of other players, I would be happy to obliged

As for the last question- yes I still do. I have given what I think it means, he countered. His counter has not changed my opinion of what I believe it means. In fact, his counter sounds like the original quote in question. What is your take on post 182? Am I assuming to many things? Perhaps you can explain what he meant by it. The reason I am asking you, is because it is like having someone else read over a paper and they help to sort out the confusing parts. I cannot ask him, because he already tried to counter and it still sounds the same.

As for the contradiction, he wants to lynch Sauron, yet wants the day to continue. Obviously he can't have both now. Why if he is so set on his lynch? I don't believe that he is any better than [no]. He wanted to put his vote on [no], which means he wanted to put [no] at L-1. it doesn't matter that he didn't, but he specifically made clear that he wanted to do. IMO the only reason he held back is because he didn't want to put someone at L-1(as he stated). But why I ask? Obviously because everybody made such a big deal of [no] doing it. Get it? He didn't want to do the same thing that everybody had made a big deal of, and the very thing that he himself is accusing [no] of doing. I sincerely doubt that if someone voted [no] now, he would not change his vote. Meaning he is fine with [no] being at L-1, but he just didn't want to be the one that did it.

So as far as I am concerned Die and Sb are both scummy, but I don't have two votes. So consider this a vote in waiting Sb. If Die proves to me he isn't as scummy as it sounds, my vote will go to you. I however don't want to switch my vote to you, than Die proves to be more scummy and go back to him.

------------
The rest


Sauron- can you please answer the three questions that I posed to Die.

Jerako-your pressure on [no] has been superb. Now that [no] has been replaced, do you feel that Sauron needs pressure(and will you do it?) Also you have been concentrating on [no] the entire game, besides iso 4 [which you point at Die, but sort of withdraw it at the end, when you say that he may not be paranoid(which is scummy), but only concerned about(which is only suspicious)], Do you feel that [no] has done the only scummy thing in the game.

Av- you currently are voting for no one. Who is your the most suspicious to you right now? Also you unvoted sb because he responded calmly, do you believe that overeaction is the best scumtell, and if someone doesn't overeact than they are town?

Nacho- when you get your internet fixed, please give your top two suspicions and why.

[silverbullet999]

----------------------------------------------------------------hip

So how is it that when you say in the second paragraph in the second sentence, "when day 2 rolls around I can get a read on others." If you are only going have one read on one player and say you will get reads on others when day 2 rolls around, are you not set in your ways? I don't care if you are a noob(saying so, is nothing, but an AtE) or not, it doesn't matter, you want to lynch Sauron now, without having reads on anyone else. Can you not get reads on people now? If you can get reads on [no] certaintly you can get reads on others. You have an opinion, now what do you think of others?

Not set in my ways. I don't want to lynch Sauron now as he hasn't answered anything yet and what I thought was a mega-tell ([no] replacing) has been refuted and was an assumption that I was wrong about. I can and have gotten some reads (how accurate I do not know) on some people. As for the last part... do you want me to list everyone and say my opinions of them?

i saw the part, that you didn't want to shoot the gun, but tell me, do you believe with as many people voting for [no] and the fact that you didn't have any other reads, that your opinion of [no] was going to change? I have read the posts. What I have stated above is what I believe the posts truly means. That you truly wanted to vote [no] without appearing in any way scummy.

I refute the claim that I had no other reads, I was also suspicious of die at the time for a little bit. My opinion of no has changed as what I said before has been refuted... what I figured was a mega-tell... was not.

post 202- No i don't think you are being aggressive. Thor is being aggressive. You are being passive, by asking everybody what they think before you move. It is like you don't want to do anything that people will bark at you about. Take a look at your case on [no]. You have one thing that he did wrong, and the rest is "I agree with Jer." What exactly do you agree with Jer's case?,

Well thank you for clarifying that up. My case on no was his vote with no reason and his all of a sudden replacing.

Quote:
ok, just because it made sense to me for a moment doesn't mean it was a good reason upon further investigation.


What further investigation, exactly? You said you don't bandwagon without a reason in the very same post you negate your own reason for joining the bandwagon... and then you continue to ride the bandwagon.

This contradiction here is what I agree with.

Do you think that I am intentionally not posting, and/or posting minimal in my posts? Though I have to say that as scum I do lurk.

I am not fully sure if you are intentionally doing it or if you are simply busy. Interesting.

b)scum-hunting
The first should not happen. As for the second, why shouldn't players give their opinion in the matter.

It was my hope in the method that you would retort back rather fast with a reckless post giving me offenses and maybe slipping a few things out that you don't mean to say. I was trying to "escalate" the game with you I suppose but as I was questioned repeatedly of it you were able read my admittance that the reply was a method which has failed rather miserably. I had no problems of the opinions generated from it... I wish however that a response was made from you before others brought this up... and also before I was warned about it.

After reading my post towards you what was your reaction?
Do you agree with my argument that most of the questions you had asked were answered?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------Pul---------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the wiki.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------Thor--------------------------------------------------
Do you find hiphop's second post was him hopping on a bandwagon and trying to support your "flame" on me? Why/Why not?
Would you agree that his questions were similar to yours?

I think this influence could either hurt or help the town, and it tends to depend on whether or not my reads are accurate or not. At the very least if people 'trust' me it does on a basic statistical level help us since I'm not scum so we therefore have a better chance of lynching scum.

What evidence do you have to back yourself up as not being scum besides the play style you are using right now (being leaderlike)?

-------------------------------------------------AV----------------------------------------------

I'm willing to see the (alleged) fruits of his "method" before I do anything specific. I don't think that voting him now (I think this is what you're asking about) will give me any more information at this present time.

As I stated, my method has been fruitless. Do you find yourself agreeing with thor and/or hiphop as each post is made?
Do you feel that thor has been doing a good job with pressure on me?
Do you feel that hiphop has been doing a good job with pressure on me?

--------------------------------------------Die---------------------------------------------------
Could you also answer the two questions above
Do you feel that hiphop and thor make a good team?
You seemed to be suspicious of Thor in previous posts, does that still stand to be true? How will you pursue it?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[silverbullet999]

Also

Unvote

and

Prod Sauron

I'd like to hear sauron make a response

[hiphop]

Not set in my ways. I don't want to lynch Sauron now as he hasn't answered anything yet and what I thought was a mega-tell ([no] replacing) has been refuted and was an assumption that I was wrong about. I can and have gotten some reads (how accurate I do not know) on some people. As for the last part... do you want me to list everyone and say my opinions of them?

listing people and saying you only have a town read only helps scum. However I do want to know your top two, and why. Even if it is just a gut. Like I said that post indicated that you will follow others and that you don't want to lynch no one besides Sauron, because he is the only one that you have a read on. That was the only point I was trying to make. If you have reads than you have reads. Remember this game is about finding out who is scum. It doesn't matter how you do it, just that it is done. I am sure you have some idea how you plan to do it.

ok, just because it made sense to me for a moment doesn't mean it was a good reason upon further investigation.


What further investigation, exactly? You said you don't bandwagon without a reason in the very same post you negate your own reason for joining the bandwagon... and then you continue to ride the bandwagon.

This contradiction here is what I agree with.

(Fixed quote.) Makes sense, but is it the only part you agree with?

It was my hope in the method that you would retort back rather fast with a reckless post giving me offenses and maybe slipping a few things out that you don't mean to say. I was trying to "escalate" the game with you I suppose but as I was questioned repeatedly of it you were able read my admittance that the reply was a method which has failed rather miserably. I had no problems of the opinions generated from it... I wish however that a response was made from you before others brought this up... and also before I was warned about it.

Sorry to disappoint you, I was at work. Either way it would have failed, because I don't cuss.

After reading my post towards you what was your reaction?
Do you agree with my argument that most of the questions you had asked were answered?

My reaction,whether you believe it or not, was the same as you making a normal post against me. If you feel that strongly about a game, than that is your business.

I had three major accusations (you waiting till day two to get reads, wanting to lynch [no] soon, and finding [no] scummy because of a replacement) Only one, the second one, you had withdrawn, before I posted. As for the third one, you didn't withdraw that until after I posted, and the first one you didn't say you had more reads until this last post. The second and third one I can understand, but the first one seems a lot like a scum slip. What was your purpose to make such a statement?

Oh, and why do you unvote? Was it because you were called out on it? I find that even more of a scumtell. unvoting because of pressure.

[hiphop]

Prod Sauron

I'd like to hear sauron make a response

ok, good.

mod, can you also prod Jerako? It has been over 72 hours

[Sauron]

Alright, sorry I'm a day later than I said I would be. Not the best reason I ever had, but I forgot about a few parties at my uni... yeah. I should be more active now that I'll just be following posts as they unfold.

Anyway, first things first, someone did this in the last game I played and I found it to be rather helpful, so here's a tracking of the votes people have made. It obviously gets more useful in later days, but even glancing at it now I think I've noticed a few patterns to check out.


Now, I've got some questions thrown my way. If I've missed any, let me know, because it certainly wasn't intentional.

Firstly, from Pulindar:

I apologize for being slower on getting in here, but (as you can see if you want to check out Newbie 903) this is not characteristic, so don't expect it to be much of a problem over time. To answer your questions, no, I didn't think I'd actually be quicklynched, but my statement mainly stood to make sure it didn't accidentally happen more than to make sure it didn't purposely happen. I know accidental quicklynches seem like a silly thing to be afraid of, but you should see D1 on 903. It was scary! The reason why I didn't post more was simply because I didn't have time to. Taking the time to post what I did already made me 5 minutes late to work, and I felt anything longer would have only been more problematic in my real life than I could afford.

Now, from hiphop:

I've read over Thor's case against SB and I definitely think it has some merit. SB's contributions have been minimal, seems to only want to act with the group (great hiding technique), and the angry outburst is really suspect. For one, asking about it ahead of time, as someone else mentioned, seems like premeditation. Same thing with the way that post started ("I feel like I'm going to ballistic"). Finally, SB never seemed to actually regret making the post, so it's clearly more than a case of someone getting too angry and letting it get the better of them. Scum case alone? Probably not. Strong indicator of a place to examine further? I'd say yes.

As for attacking newbies, I don't see why not. They are playing this game just as much as the experienced players, and I feel, in part, my previous game (newbie 903) was lost because the town didn't want to attack the poor newbie player who turned out to be scum. Besides, I personally feel like being under strong and violent pressure is probably a better way to learn a lot of aspects of this game than training wheels are.

Now, just a quick overview of how I'm reading people right now:

Aurorus: Posting decently much, but I don't think I've remembered too much of a contribution. I mean, I'd say he's above active lurking, and he has contributed some, but for the most part, I'm not too sure what to think.

Die: I certainly don't agree with how my predecessor handled it, but I think he was spot on with voting Die. He's had little to no contribution whatsoever, but seems to be making every attempt to look like he is. He's showing all the telltale signs of trying to blend in, and is trying to excuse looking scummy. He also seems to attack other players far too much for missing something while himself failing to read quite a bit. Definitely high on my list of scum suspects.

hiphop: Hasn't posted overly much, but has been useful in those posts that exist. Good pressure, especially towards SB, but that doesn't necessarily mean towniness quite yet.

Jerako: Definitely on the fence about this one. He definitely seems to be somewhat self-contradictory and too willing to make spurious cases, but the notes I took down as I read through the thread really don't have much about him one way or another. If there's anyone I says has even chances of towniness and scumminess, this is the one. I'll definitely be looking to see how he develops more.

Nachomamma8: Much like Jerako, I don't have much down here, but Nacho seems to have made more contributions and be less contradictory than Jerako, so that's something.

Pulindar: Good questions, good pressure, confusing votes at times. Seems to be playing the meta-game more than the game, which worries me, but doesn't strike me as a scumtell.

silverbullet999: I summed this up mostly above, but, tl;dr version, one of my two major scum suspects right now.

Thor: Most townie vibes I've seen all game. Has been helpful in many ways, good at applying pressure, questioning people, and generally being townlike. Again, never can eliminate anyone from suspicion, but definitely a good one to have around for now.

Now, again, I need to run again, but based on my suspicions, I think it's time SB felt a bit more pressure.

Vote: silverbullet999

[Sauron]

Oh, and I _will_ throw up an avatar after I have time to shrink down an image I have to the appropriate size.

[Thor665]

Did you consider this a test for a scummy reaction? What about it did he 'take well'?

Nope, just a test of his reaction as a human being.

The fact that he actually said he was glad I had more experience. Instead of just ignoring it.

Do you find that the best way to gauge me is ask a single question, on the reasons of the info that I chose to share about my experience?

The only sane way to respond is 'yes, at the time I did think that was the best way to gauge you.'

What is your opinion of the logical fallacy 'appeal to experience'?

Now that you know Pulindar is a good human being, how will that help us find scum?

I however don't want to switch my vote to you, than Die proves to be more scummy and go back to him.

Considering that part of your case on silverbullet is based on the concept that he didn't want to put [no] at L-1 because he thought it would look scummy - what is your reasoning for not wanting to have to shift your votes around as your suspicions change?
---------------------------------------

Do you find hiphop's second post was him hopping on a bandwagon and trying to support your "flame" on me? Why/Why not?

'Hopping on a bandwagon' as a phrase seems to have negative connotations with some so I shall avoid it here and rephrase the response; I think it is fair to say that something you did and/or something I brought up about you appears to have triggered hiphop. Him voting for you as well and adding pressure reads as scumhunting to me, because voting a bandwagon you see as most likely to catch scum is a basic and intrinsic part of the game.

Would you agree that his questions were similar to yours?

Yes, and they continue to be so. However, I will say that certain of his explanations of the theory behind his scummy feelings are different in certain ways from my own. So I would not go so far as to suggest they are totally cribbed, perhaps it is simply a derivative work with its own copyright.

I do find it interesting that he is, in many ways, re-asking questions I have already posed you, but at the moment I see enough original work in the case he's presenting to not feel concerned by it.

What evidence do you have to back yourself up as not being scum besides the play style you are using right now (being leaderlike)?

You're asking me to prove a negative? That seems unproductive.

[hiphop]

What is your opinion of the logical fallacy 'appeal to experience'?

Never heard it before, but if it is a sub category of AtE. Than obviously it is a scum tell.

Now that you know Pulindar is a good human being, how will that help us find scum?

Do you know what a joke is? Because that is what I was doing.

Considering that part of your case on silverbullet is based on the concept that he didn't want to put [no] at L-1 because he thought it would look scummy - what is your reasoning for not wanting to have to shift your votes around as your suspicions change?

I still suspect Die. He has yet to comment on my case that I made against him. So my vote remains. When did i say that I don't want to switch my vote, even though my suspicion remains. I posted a case on die, he has yet to respond, however SB made a scummy statement. But that doesn't mean that I should immeadiately switch my vote to Sb. When die responds, then I will ponder on who my vote will go to. Until then my vote will stay on Die.
---------------------------------------

Do you find hiphop's second post was him hopping on a bandwagon and trying to support your "flame" on me? Why/Why not?

'Hopping on a bandwagon' as a phrase seems to have negative connotations with some so I shall avoid it here and rephrase the response; I think it is fair to say that something you did and/or something I brought up about you appears to have triggered hiphop. Him voting for you as well and adding pressure reads as scumhunting to me, because voting a bandwagon you see as most likely to catch scum is a basic and intrinsic part of the game.

I am still voting for Die. When did I ever vote for SB?

[Thor665]

When did I ever vote for SB?

You didn't. With discussion of hopping on a bandwagon I simply answered the question in a mindset presuming you had. Extract the 'vote' part of my answer post there and add, I dunno, 'pressure' and everything else still reads as intended.

Appeal to experience is basically implying that you believe someone/something because the person expressing that thought has 'experience'. When you took pains to mention how you were more experienced then Pulindar I saw it as a potential setting up of yourself as a better authority in case future disagreements arose.

Since your assault on silverbullet came after mine, what was your expected reaction from him when you chose to take an abrasive stance when accusing him? Do you usually play in a more abrasive/aggressive style?


@Sauron - what do you see as Jerako's self-contradictions?

[Pulindar]

It's strange, he was a fan of yours

ooo really? now I'm curious.... who?
I can't think of that many people who could be called fans of me... and even fewer ICs... hmm ... I wonder. Now I won't be able to stop thinking about this.

What is the expected advantage of announcing a town read on a player for reasons you prefer not to discuss? I basically feel that you cited meta here to add credence to a gut read.

to mention that it's there. If It's needed I'll bring it up, but I'm hoping it won't be needed... you see?

I'm willing to see the (alleged) fruits of his "method" before I do anything specific. I don't think that voting him now (I think this is what you're asking about) will give me any more information at this present time.

hehe no. I meant are you going to follow it up with questions and such. For instance I'm following up on a few things with Thor. We're talking it out etc. Once it's done being talked about I'm going to go back and go over everything and then choose more points to push

IMO you are saying that you have a towntell that you purposely use when you are scum, and when you are town. That is very anti-town. It is your job as scum to blend in your town game, but not as town to blend in something tha twill help your scum game. So why, when you are town, trying to blend your scum and town game, and purposely dropping tells that will only help your scum game? This will only cause confusion, on your true alignment, and it will hurt the town. fos

Quite simply, because you're basis is wrong. My scum game will help my town game. I see I must explain. If you look at my past games you would see that I defend as town and attack as scum. Either way I survive and I use similar arguments.

As town though I could never convince anyone to lynch who I thought was scum because I was not willing to take a stance and make an attack. It was because I was never certain enough. Now I have decided that I didn't need to be absolutely certain before going after someone, because by going after them I could find out for sure. (that I got from my scum game by seeing town's reaction to my pressure and seeing my partner's reaction to town pressure.)

For my scum game I learned that I needed to defend. Suffice it to say after I learned this I began using both attacks and defenses as both scum and town (mostly in ongoing games and I learned quite recently.)

Before Nacho could tell my alignment based entirely on what I responded to. I used to be very selective about what I was responding to, as town I took a defensive stance, as scum and offensive. I've learned to respond to everything (it's the only thing that stops me from being selective) by using my scum stuff I really can scum hunt, and by using my town stuff I survive. (though scum hunting was often seen as enough to survive in the past)

So just because someone places out, even in a suspicious spot, does not mean that they are scum. I am glad that Sb is no longer using it as part of his case.

QFT

Questions one, two, three, and four, I refuse to comment on. Looking for partners before the lynch of scum is nothing, but setting up lynches. That is anti-town. I would be nothing better than Sb in the fact that I have my lynches set, but still want the day to go on. It causes the day to stagnate, as well as muddying the waters. If you want to ask what I think of other players, I would be happy to obliged

As for the contradiction, he wants to lynch Sauron, yet wants the day to continue. Obviously he can't have both now.

Ah I understand now. Thank you for reexplaining. Well, I already had to relook at it *laughs* I guess I need to look at it under that light as well.

What is your opinion of the logical fallacy 'appeal to experience'?

I've heard of it, and seen it in full action in another VRK game actually. My first game an IC bussed his partner really hard and alot of people suspected him of bussing because he did it so hard. His claim was that as IC he would not have been allowed to buss that hard. He flipped scum obviously. But he still appealed to experience saying it was something he would not be allowed to do/would not do to newer players. It was very very underhanded, and was a big part of what stalled me from voting (I voted 20 minutes after deadline in LyLo and lost us the game) I voted in the right direction though. My first newbie game.

Other than that, I have seen players take over as town because they were experienced and make it seem like their town hunting was the only possible way... eh i see that as well. I'd suspect Thor most of doing it, but his hunting seems legit. (then again that's always the goal ) I don't think anyone has really done this though.

If this is not what you meant then just let me know.......

. I know accidental quicklynches seem like a silly thing to be afraid of, but you should see D1 on 903. It was scary!

Believe me, I've seen my fair share.

BTW Read the vote thing. I forgot my vote was on Die *facepalm*

Unvote
Vote Jerako

L-4

Wow, no one has voted AV at all... interesting.

As for the last question- yes I still do. I have given what I think it means, he countered. His counter has not changed my opinion of what I believe it means. In fact, his counter sounds like the original quote in question. What is your take on post 182? Am I assuming to many things? Perhaps you can explain what he meant by it. The reason I am asking you, is because it is like having someone else read over a paper and they help to sort out the confusing parts. I cannot ask him, because he already tried to counter and it still sounds the same.

Understandable, let me read the rest of this post, and then I will go over that. Eh... let me move this to the bottom of this post.
Eh.. Reading through it seems that you guys clarified it with each other. If you still want my opinion I'll give it, but it seems like SB clarified himself to your satisfaction (not saying you think he's not scummy, merely that he seems fine with your interpretation and is no longer saying your misreping him.)

[Sauron]

@Sauron - what do you see as Jerako's self-contradictions?

I've just jotted down a couple of things, which is why my position isn't stronger. Just jumping quickly through ISOs, though.

ISO 0 Jerako enters, asks a few theory questions, presses [no] on the exact same questions that were already on the table. Easy way to look helpful without doing anything, but it's ISO 0, so it's not a huge offense.

ISO 1 he says he doesn't understand why he should vote early. Okay, fair for a newbie. He then says he doesn't think enough information is on the table for him to vote. By ISO 2 (a difference of 12 posts in game), he suddenly decides he has enough information from [no]. Note that [no] had posted twice in this span, with the only new information [no] presented being "I am a newbie and have learned more about the game". I can accept if Jerako decided that he didn't need as much information to vote after being persuaded otherwise, but that's not what he said at all.

In several posts he also kept pushing [no] to answer questions [no] had already answered. Maybe not contradictory, but it seems fairly unnecessary.

This culminates in ISO 7 where he makes a number of good points against [no] and a number of bad ones. I think this is my favorite part:

but i just played one game there. and i did terribly. also, the rules of those games doesn't allow an automatic lynch once a majority has been reached, you have to wait until 5PM EST (the night phase) to wait for the lynch. until then, it doesn't matter how many votes they have on you.

so basically what im saying - if this even helps at all - is that the issue of quicklynching someone therefore didn't even register in my head.

So now you've been caught in a second contradiction. It either did, or it did not "register in your head" that you were quickly pushing DP to a lynch. Not both. If you realized that the lynch will happen on the fifth vote, then you realized that you were pushing DP extremely close to making that happen. Ergo, you were trying to get him lynched as fast as possible, especially considering my points above, where you yourself stated (not in so many words), that you had no other reason to stay on the bandwagon. You knew

exactly

what you were doing, and I think the "issue of quicklynching" that you became aware of, is that it's obvious that you're scum by doing so.

[no] makes it clear that he's used to a game where lynches happen only at a set time, regardless of vote counts prior to it, and Jerako keeps insisting that this is exactly the same as our system so [no] should be used to it. Maybe Jerako is having difficulty understanding [no]'s wording, but that's simply not how I read it.


Now, again, with all of this said, he's also made some fairly good points, questions, and pressure against both [no] and Die, so I conclude that he's more of a toss-up than anything.

[silverbullet999]

-----------------------------------------------------hip

I had three major accusations (you waiting till day two to get reads, wanting to lynch [no] soon, and finding [no] scummy because of a replacement) Only one, the second one, you had withdrawn, before I posted. As for the third one, you didn't withdraw that until after I posted, and the first one you didn't say you had more reads until this last post. The second and third one I can understand, but the first one seems a lot like a scum slip. What was your purpose to make such a statement?

I'm a little confused as to your wording of this. Could you clarify it more? Your first accusation (Thor touched on this) I have already explained.. though you misword it... I wasn't waiting til day two t get reads... I was originally waiting til day two to scumhunt. I refute your second argument as I have said before we aren't near the deadline. The third I agree with and it was a noobie assumption.

Oh, and why do you unvote? Was it because you were called out on it? I find that even more of a scumtell. unvoting because of pressure.

I figured you would be suspicious of it but as at the moment sauron hadn't posted anything yet and the mega-tell disproven. Thus my suspicion is slightly on him but not enough for a vote.

[Nachomamma8]

Hi, hi, I'm back, and silverbullet999 is town. Strangely enough, the reasons why I think he's town are the reasons Thor thinks he's scum :/. Explanation below.

The angry explosion: Anger is definitely a town response to the feeling of being misrepresented. Although, silver, keeping language to a PG-13 level is a great idea. For one, there might be kids around whose minds aren't tainted by the poison of society, and also, being abrasive like that makes it easier for scum to drum up support against you. The idea that the anger was sparked by "fear of being caught" isn't really valid, considering the lack of aggression on hiphop's part. Also, I've never seen newbscum react to being caught with anger; usually, I see lurking. Silver met his accusations head-on, which is a town-tell in my book.
{Note: the above was written before I read Silver’s big reveal. The below was written after.}
But then, he explains that he was trying to trap who he thought was scum (hip-hop) by acting overly aggressive. Even better . First of all, town tell because he immediately thought the person attacking him was scum, and second of all, he wanted to out said scum using a plan that was a bit overthought (is that a word...?)


Folding on the no-scumhunting charge: I'm not sure why you see this as scummy. Realizing your mistakes and making efforts to change them is one of the most protown things you can do in the game of mafia. It's extremely hard for scum to say "yeah, I'm lurking" because they're afraid of the question coming next: "Well, why shouldn't we just lynch you?"

How about a third option? I see half of the players here are, in some way, more experienced than the others. You guys have been nice ICs for us, but at the same time you guys have been quite agressive on 2 newbies. Easy targets.

It would be good to start considering this 3rd option: we can have 2 experienced players in the mafia.

I know this isn't all that reassuring coming from a "experienced player", but the probability of an all IC/SE mafia isn't truly that large (usually 33%, in this case a little under 50%). However, if this were to happen, there is still at least townie experienced player to hunt and point out the connection; in this case, there are two. Also, just because we're experienced doesn't mean our play is so perfect that you won't be able to find scumtells on us or anything like that. Finally, don't ever forget that you're not alone. We outnumber the scum 7:2, and all seven of us townies have different perspectives, and we will all find scumtells that no one else can see. So, if your gut is saying someone's scum, simply vocalize it. That will make other people take a look at that person, and they might find what you're missing.

My top suspect is undoubtedly hiphop. Here's why...

For one, there's his treatment of Pulindar; I'm not exactly sure how to interpret it. He begins with a random vote and a compliment ("you're probably a better IC than I would be"). Then, he provides a couple of things he found scummy that are "at least worth an FoS". Then, he waffles a bit and commends Pulindar on his excellent play. In other words, it's the perfect compliment sandwich. Compliment and buddy, point out scumtells and discredit, finish with some more complimenting and buddying.

Then, there's his fun ol' appeals to experience. Thor pointed it out in post 233, but the point needs to be reiterated. He felt the need to point out that he’s played more games than Pulindar, that he could be an IC if he wanted to be one, etc. (Pulindar, trivia question: What player that we’ve both seen as scum is extremely prone to Appeals to Experience?).

I don’t like his response when questioned about it AT ALL:

it is not important in a way. However it is also good for people to realize that if the IC survives, it does not mean that they are scum I was establishing that I may have more experience, as a lower rank, but we are all still people. It was also a joke.

Scummy for the contridiction. “It’s not really THAT important. But people need to know that if an IC survives, he’s not auto scum. But it was a joke.”

A couple of minor things as well have set my gut off on him to some extent: First of all, the whole prodding incident. I don’t see any protown reason to be worried on whether a prod matters or not, but I do see scum being worried about being prodded because it shows that they’re inactive/lurking. Second of all, there’s the following quote:

What makes you think I was lurking I obviusly was flaking big difference.

Odd you’re so quick to label someone completely wrong when there is so much maneuverability in the vocabulary.

Nacho’s Definitions of low-activity labels:

Lurking- Generally being inactive.
Active Lurking- Failing to post to avoid addressing issues, or posting lots of words with no content.
Passive Lurking- Failing to post for long periods of time when there is no other site activity.
Flaking- Being replaced.

Am I wrong with these definitions?



You’ll have to wait for my second suspect tomorrow… This is a long enough post as it is

[hiphop]

@pul- ok i understand. I didn't know if it was something like what your opinion is on a bw (sadly the reason i was lynched day 1 as scum). Also I do want your opinion on my dispute with Sb and the post in question.

-----------------------------------------------------hip

I had three major accusations (you waiting till day two to get reads, wanting to lynch [no] soon, and finding [no] scummy because of a replacement) Only one, the second one, you had withdrawn, before I posted. As for the third one, you didn't withdraw that until after I posted, and the first one you didn't say you had more reads until this last post. The second and third one I can understand, but the first one seems a lot like a scum slip. What was your purpose to make such a statement?

I'm a little confused as to your wording of this. Could you clarify it more? Your first accusation (Thor touched on this) I have already explained.. though you misword it... I wasn't waiting til day two t get reads... I was originally waiting til day two to scumhunt. I refute your second argument as I have said before we aren't near the deadline. The third I agree with and it was a noobie assumption.

You said that that you will wait to day two to get reads, not scumhunt. Thor touched on the scumhunting part, not the reads part. Getting reads is one of the basics of scum-hunting. So now are you saying that you want to replace the word read to scumhunt. The second and third don't matter to me anymore. If you only have a read on a few players, you can't properly scum hunt. You saying that on day 2 you will get the reads on the rest, says you don't have any on them now. And as i said before the noobie card is nothing but an AtE.

I figured you would be suspicious of it but as at the moment sauron hadn't posted anything yet and the mega-tell disproven. Thus my suspicion is slightly on him but not enough for a vote.

And again I ask you, do you agree with anymore of Jerako's post?

Nacho- You can use town-tells all you want, but don't expect me to comply. I like to make little paper airplanes out of them, and throw them out the window. In my last game calling people town for towntells is what lost town the game. i myself was left off the hook, because they said i attempted to scumhunt, therefore I must be town. I do not believe in towntells. In my mind everybody is a suspect, just some more than others. We are not here to find townies, that is the scum job, we are here to find scum. That is what I believe, and you can't change that. So don't argue the point.

The angry explosion: Anger is definitely a town response to the feeling of being misrepresented. Although, silver, keeping language to a PG-13 level is a great idea. For one, there might be kids around whose minds aren't tainted by the poison of society, and also, being abrasive like that makes it easier for scum to drum up support against you. The idea that the anger was sparked by "fear of being caught" isn't really valid, considering the lack of aggression on hiphop's part. Also, I've never seen newbscum react to being caught with anger; usually, I see lurking. Silver met his accusations head-on, which is a town-tell in my book.
{Note: the above was written before I read Silver’s big reveal. The below was written after.}
But then, he explains that he was trying to trap who he thought was scum (hip-hop) by acting overly aggressive. Even better . First of all, town tell because he immediately thought the person attacking him was scum, and second of all, he wanted to out said scum using a plan that was a bit overthought (is that a word...?)

Clearly what you just posted is only a matter of opinion. Anger is nothing, but an AtE. If you want to see newbie scum meet accusations head on, take a look at this game First pastai, but he replaced out. Ernie created a lie, in which he admitted too, so he replaced out, however bill met the accusation. All were scum. Of course his buddy Wall_Jon created his own scumtell, so he replaced.(certaintly didn't want to bring this argument up when Sb was commenting on replacements.) As for it being an act. How is your first part valid of him using anger, if it was just an act? Clearly it wasn't anger then. So then it must be a null tell, and not a towntell.

You don't think that scum can do the same thing? What makes you so sure that he really thought i was scum? If he is scum, would it not be just a poor way to OMGUS, without the vote. As for the last sentence. I can't refute it either way, for town or scum, because it is a new one for me. But if you say it is a town-tell, because he had a plan, then let that be your opinion.

Folding on the no-scumhunting charge: I'm not sure why you see this as scummy. Realizing your mistakes and making efforts to change them is one of the most protown things you can do in the game of mafia. It's extremely hard for scum to say "yeah, I'm lurking" because they're afraid of the question coming next: "Well, why shouldn't we just lynch you?"

There is no evidence to say he wasn't. So it is the only logical thing he can do.

For one, there's his treatment of Pulindar; I'm not exactly sure how to interpret it. He begins with a random vote and a compliment ("you're probably a better IC than I would be"). Then, he provides a couple of things he found scummy that are "at least worth an FoS". Then, he waffles a bit and commends Pulindar on his excellent play. In other words, it's the perfect compliment sandwich. Compliment and buddy, point out scumtells and discredit, finish with some more complimenting and buddying.

Please point out the waffling part.

You also state the you don't know how to interpret it, yet you end up as it being scummy. How is that so?

Then, there's his fun ol' appeals to experience. Thor pointed it out in post 233, but the point needs to be reiterated. He felt the need to point out that he’s played more games than Pulindar, that he could be an IC if he wanted to be one, etc. (Pulindar, trivia question: What player that we’ve both seen as scum is extremely prone to Appeals to Experience?).

I don’t like his response when questioned about it AT ALL:

it is not important in a way. However it is also good for people to realize that if the IC survives, it does not mean that they are scum I was establishing that I may have more experience, as a lower rank, but we are all still people. It was also a joke.

Scummy for the contridiction. “It’s not really THAT important. But people need to know that if an IC survives, he’s not auto scum. But it was a joke.”

Why do you think I told everyone my experience? In case you don't know I post my experience in just about all my newbies games. Not once have i been scum in these.

A couple of minor things as well have set my gut off on him to some extent: First of all, the whole prodding incident. I don’t see any protown reason to be worried on whether a prod matters or not, but I do see scum being worried about being prodded because it shows that they’re inactive/lurking.

Maybe because I have never been prodded before, I didn't want it to be the first. Also i took somewhat as a threat being he said in my pm that he will replace me if i don't post by the 48th hour of the game(when I should be prodded) I could either of a) pm'd him or b) post in the thread, I saw no reason to pm him when i should post in the thread anyways. So I combined the two.
Second of all, there’s the following quote:

Nacho’s Definitions of low-activity labels:

Lurking- Generally being inactive.
Active Lurking- Failing to post to avoid addressing issues, or posting lots of words with no content.
Passive Lurking- Failing to post for long periods of time when there is no other site activity.
Flaking- Being replaced.

Am I wrong with these definitions?

No, you are not wrong. I always thought that flaking was the definition that you posted for passive lurking. I even linked without reading it. Thank you for clarifying it.

And I don't want to forget Thor-

Since your assault on silverbullet came after mine, what was your expected reaction from him when you chose to take an abrasive stance when accusing him? Do you usually play in a more abrasive/aggressive style?

i don't ever

expect

any kind of reaction. I just go with what they give me. Am I supposed to say if he does this, it is scummy, and if he does this it is town? What if he goes in between, or off in another direction. I do however want him to clarify, or admit he can't defend against it.

As for the second question, you decide, the last finished game is two months ago. I was scum. scum. Here is the other scum game that i played in (<---Lynched first day). And we have the last towngame, as well as the last newbie game. Then there is the last newbie game that I did not replace into. I have my opinion on the matter, so if you really want me to say it, then I will. But it would be better if you decide yourself.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Prodding Sauron and Jerako.


Official Vote Count

Sauron - 2 (Jerako, Die Prediger)
Die Prediger - 1 (hiphop)
silverbullet999 - 2 (Thor665, Sauron)
Jerako - 1 (Pulindar)

Not Voting - 3 (AurorusVox, Nachomamma8, silverbullet999)

5 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Tuesday, May 4.

[AurorusVox]

First off, apologies that this is a lengthy post. I was at a theme park yesterday and just travelled home from staying at my GFs so I’ve not been on the internet much the last few days. Here’s some things I’d like to pick up on.

Secondly, that voting history chart thing is amazing, and right up my alley. I like charts in general. I'm a bit OCD about charts. I love this chart. I'm using it below.

From SB:

As I stated, my method has been fruitless. Do you find yourself agreeing with thor and/or hiphop as each post is made?

At first my gut-reaction to you was that I felt there was something scummy about you. You allayed my fears initially, and your willingness to engage with others’ questions shows a fearlessness with regards to slipping up. That said, your overreaction, and passing it off as real anger/faked method, is somewhat scummy in my mind. I understand what you were (perhaps) attempting to do; but I’m not sure whether to believe that this was actually what you were doing.

Do you feel that thor has been doing a good job with pressure on me?

I think he engaged you directly quite well. Your back-and-forth with him was interesting to read, and I think I gleaned some information from it. Thor is very hard to read, though, and I’m more interested in trying to get stuff on him than you through the little debates.

Do you feel that hiphop has been doing a good job with pressure on me?

HipH0p’s focus has been interesting, and again, I’m trying to use it to get a read on him. I’m less convinced with his arguments, because he seems to be somewhat like a thor-lite. Similar style, similar votes. More on my reaction to hiphop below...



I looked at the vote history, and then this post made me laugh from Thor:

I see some evidence that Aurorus seems agreeable to a lot of my expressed opinions

I see some evidence that Thor has been following my votes. After I suggested someone unvoted Preacher, he changed his vote to [no], who I had RV’d on previously. He later focused on Silver after I’d voted him. Could it be that I’m agreeing with your opinions because...I already had similar opinions? I don’t think this in itself is as clear cut as making you seem scummy. But bringing it up makes it look like I’m blindly following and agreeing, which isn’t the case at all.


From hiph0p:

Av- you currently are voting for no one. Who is your the most suspicious to you right now?

At the moment, I'm suspicious of you, as I’ll explain (at great length) below.

TLdr version is bolded at the bottom of my post

Also you unvoted sb because he responded calmly, do you believe that overeaction is the best scumtell, and if someone doesn't overeact than they are town?

This whole issue has been complicated in untold directions. I’m going to break it down in pieces because I think it’s quite a complex knot that needs undoing. I don’t mean to sound condescending here, so please forgive me for that, but I do work better breaking things down in this way...

SB’s reactions

[*] Responding to my vote (a)
[*] Responding to Thor’s questions (b)
[*] Responding to your (hiphop’s) allegations (c)

How did he react?

First I’d like to note that “over” reaction is a relative term

[*] Calmly; most importantly, he was willing to answer any questions I had, putting the power firmly in my hands (a)
[*] This was maintained through his conversation with Thor. He gave answers to everything he was asked about. (b)
[*] He overreacted; moreover, it was an intentional overreaction. (c)

How do “we” as the group take this?

[*] I took this as very towny – Pulindar initially agreed with me, then said he might have responded differently in my situation (strange?) (a)
[*] I still thought he seemed towny – but Thor obviously disagrees since he is still voting for him. (b)
[*] I took this as very scummy. So did you (hiphop) and Thor. Nachomamma thought it was a townie reaction. (c)

Relate all of that to the question you asked

[*] First off I’ve never said that because calm reactions seem towny, that overreactions are scummy. But I’ll be taking your willingness to make these black and white two-fold assumptions into account when I discuss your relation to these questions...
[*] Your tone in the question, and the fact that you have been FoSing SB since before his “over”reaction, suggests that you don’t take calm reactions to be a towntell. By the method of making assumptions that I have discussed above, I have formulated this as what you appear to be hinting at: calmness =/= town (therefore) calmness = scum; (therefore) overreaction = town.
[*] Plug that into how people reacted to the overreaction, and there’s my problem: you took his overreaction to be scummy, since you didn’t revoke your FoS on him. Furthermore, when nachomamma raised it as a townie-tell, you disagreed.

THE KEY POINT IS THIS

I don't believe in black and white distinctions, but you seem willing to push clear cut b&w distinctions when questioning others, then stay in grey areas when making your own statements. I'm going to be using your own preference for black-and-white attacks to grill you.

You say that calm reactions aren’t town-tells; and then are willing to think of overreactions as scum-tells – the very same (apparent) belief of mine (that I didn’t even have) that you questioned.

Vote: hiph0p

A lot is being made of contradictions. Do you think that you have contradicted yourself on either of these counts:
(i) Your belief of scum/town tells through (over)reactions?
(ii) Your method of offence/defence in scumhunting?

[Thor665]

TL:DR

I disagree with some of Nacho's scumhunting reads, and question the reasoning of him clearing SB.
hiphop pressed SB, in a way which I feel should have been obvious that it would generate an angry retort, then cites the angry retort as scummy. I do not like this.
The Lemon and I are inside each other's heads, but I clarify what part of the game I felt the fruit was following me on and question some of his thoughts vis'a'vi me following him.


====================================

Hi, hi, I'm back, and silverbullet999 is town. Strangely enough, the reasons why I think he's town are the reasons Thor thinks he's scum :/.

I'll note that I am not a fan of your read here. Anger = town response...and then faked anger for a trap = town response? This seems silly. Please expound.

(Pulindar, trivia question: What player that we’ve both seen as scum is extremely prone to Appeals to Experience?).

Though I appreciate your agreement on the appeal to experience though I had - I see no value in this unless Pulindar's answer is going to be 'hiphop' otherwise it's quoting someone else's meta and suggesting it indemnifies hiphop.

Though as an interesting sidenote for myself, isn't this what we lynched you for in the last game I played with you? So, no scum points here for this specific aspect, but I don't see the logic behind any connection you can draw there unless all/most experienced Mafia are extremely prone to appeals to experience.

i don't ever

expect

any kind of reaction. I just go with what they give me. Am I supposed to say if he does this, it is scummy, and if he does this it is town?

I ask the question because I had been (very slightly) abrasive/aggressive towards him and had received an angry response. You then came in with a stronger level (in my opinion) of aggressive and abrasive play and got a stronger reaction from him.

You then cited this reaction as scummy and an appeal to emotion.

When you wrote your post, it seems fairly likely it would have been easy to expect his reaction would be heated in response which makes me wonder why you did so when you seem to consider anger a reasonable scumtell?

I also thank you for the links to your meta, I'll read them and get back to you on this, but would still like the above addressed.

Thor is very hard to read, though, and I’m more interested in trying to get stuff on him than you through the little debates.

I'm best read in Russian because it sounds awesome. If you're having trouble reading me is your plan really to sit back and try to only decipher me through my interactions with others? Though this is not an unreasonable plot in a general sense, why would you not also be working for more interaction between you and I?

I see some evidence that Thor has been following my votes. After I suggested someone unvoted Preacher, he changed his vote to [no], who I had RV’d on previously. He later focused on Silver after I’d voted him. Could it be that I’m agreeing with your opinions because...I already had similar opinions?

That's interesting, I hadn't noticed the vote following - when I commented on how you were agreeable with my thoughts I was actually only recalling the discussion of [no]'s newbishness which I obviously started and you became a quick convert of and noted specifically that you were agreeing with me on it.

Also, question; Are you legitimately claiming your RVS vote on [no] as something I 'followed'?

[AurorusVox]

I'll clarify that to followed in a temporal sense ^^

I agreed with you on the [no]-newbish points

only

when I followed the link to his previous game experience. I see it more as agreeing in the face of evidence rather than agreeing with you per-se.

I'd like to ask you questions to try to get more of a read on you, but I'm enjoying watching from afar, seeing how you interact with others. At the moment, like almost everyone else, I'm getting strong townie-reads off of you. But I am often suspicious of anyone who seems townie, because I think scum can play a better town game than town sometimes.

In my previous post, I said that I've found aspects of hiph0p similar to your own. Are you worried that he seems to be shadowing you, or following your arguments too? What about play style? I notice that you've made some leeway into considering his tone with regards to SB; what about in general?

Earlier in the game, silver fos'd you and Preacher and you because he thought you didn't unvote [no] in time. Then he changed to Pulindar when I pointed out you unvoted first. Do you think he's followed up on his FoSes?

Would you say the same about hiph0p, who has fos'd Preacher and SB? Do you think that the Preacher is making things difficult, and do you think this is intentional?

Do you think FoSing in pairs is helpful? What do you make of people who rapidly change their votes like Pulindar? Does it make a difference if you consider that the Preacher has also done this?

[Die Prediger]

unvote
vote hiphop

for still not posting here - Nacho already has a vote on him. And i dont have anything about Thor to keep my vote on him.

I know we are in the first days, but i dont like lurking.

What makes you think I was lurking I obviusly was flaking big difference.

Thank you for clearing that. I didnt knew that little diference. And as a matter of fact, you telling me youre being A, not B, can be just a lie.

In Iso 19 he finally scumhunts. But to me it seems he only does it because [no] almost got him lynched. Also only fos [no] at this time, because, again he doesn't want to bw. Why? To you die, what is the purpose of a vote?

Yes, i did that against [no], because to me it seems strange to get someone at L-1 at page 2. You can see he was eager to do that, he doesnt even justify himself, and just does that when asked to. For me it seems veeeery strange. If it does not for you, maybe its because you already had 9 games, and know the game better. For me it seems strange. I dont think there is just one purpose for a vote. You can use it several ways.

In iso 25 he votes in a bw, only because he wants to keep [no] at L-2.

than in iso 30

You currently placed him at L-2. Are you going to unvote if somebody brings him to L-1 again?

Probably not this time. I am really not sure about [no]. I thought that being close to a lynch would make him at least say something more than

hey its cool u guys are talking about me a lot. i feel loved :aww:

before he getrs lynched. He also does not try to scumhunt (does he already knows who are the mafia, thats why?). So I will keep my vote on him until he or others change my mind.

How can you say this is why you voted him? Just because you put him back at L-2, does not change the situation that he is at L-2. He is not anywhere closer to lynch that when AV had his vote on him. Yet even now you say if someone puts him at L-1 you will keep your vote. So why couldn't you put him at L-1? Didn't want to take the heat?

Yes, i didnt want to, in a first place. But then i realized we can bring scum out giving them the chance to lynch someone. If it was me to be lynched and that helped the town, i would be glad. I didnt realized that when i was on L1 - when i freaked out - and i was scared of being killed again in the first day.

EBWOP: Forgot to answer:

Avoid lynching in the beggining of the game, even before one player hadnt posted yet, seems to me a good idea. I dont feel good to do it before the almost lynched player has the chance to defend himself.

Yet if someone had voted him before I posted you would have kept your vote on? How is that different?

Alright, i misinterpreted this one.

What no other remark on the subject? You quoted no's post for a reason.

In conclusion Die has done nothing, but defend himself, post theories on the game, and badger [no] on one thing that [no] did, and that was an attack on Die. I see no other scumhunting( if you can his badgering of [no]), and he has posted 36 times. 36 posts of fluff.

vote Die Prediger

Oh and Die it is good to act town. Town should not be afraid to be Nk. It must mean they are doing something right. Don't you agree?

Nothing? Dont you think town can make a point just on the accusations on me? I think that for that, at least, i can be useful.

I have to say it is hard to face a game with so much experienced players. I am learning how to play - but its hard. You guys are doing a good job, and i see that only throwing out some attacks is not enough. You have to go after everybody.

Also I doubt if I was around Die would have been lynched. I would have put my vote on before he hit L-2. I doubt anyone else here would have put someone at L-1 besides [no] 2 pages in this game. Therefore he would not have been lynched.

"If" is a far away land. We can never know what would have gone "if".

In my experience regarding newbies such as [no], as in newbies that throw out a lot of tells. they have been scum 3 out of 5 times. So a little more than half. Either way not enough data to policy lynch.

In my previous game a newbie was playing just like [no]. Flipped townie after lynched.

[AurorusVox]

Die, do you want me to ask my questions for you again?

This goes to Sauron too, though I'm more understandable since you replaced in.

[Die Prediger]

Preacher, what's your read on [no] at the moment? If I were to vote [no] now and put him at L-1, would you still keep your vote on him? What do you make of Jerako and his case?

At the moment my read on [no] keeps the same, and it wont change because he is not here anymore. My read on Sauron, for now, its way less scummy than [no].

So,

unvote

[Die Prediger]

Die, do you want me to ask my questions for you again?

This goes to Sauron too, though I'm more understandable since you replaced in.

No AV, Im slowly going through the posts and i will answer them all during the day.

[Die Prediger]

With no looking for a replacement... i feel like it's a mega sign but I will wait as to everyone else's thoughts before starting an action.

If [no] replacing out is a "mega-sign" why do you need others to move first? Shouldn't you move, so you can show us the "mega-sign" and lead the way to lynching the scum?

I think he is afraid of looking scummy.

And also i disagree its a sign of scumminess - for me it seems a lot more of a newbie that got pressured and dont know how to defend himself, got bored and left the game.

The step Silver takes to attack [no]/Sauron is more scummy than the replacement. You try to give an easy target to town, saying he is scum for that - when he flips town after lynched, its also easy to say it was a mistake, cause its hard to tell the difference btw newbie tell and scum tell.

For this reason,

vote Silver