Mini 954 ~ Mafia at the 11th Hour (Game Over!)

[Vi]

Vote Count XII:

- Sneaking a Read from Slave Labor

Nikanor (L-2) ~ dramonic, d3x,

VP Baltar,

Jahudo, Pomegranate, Porkens

Porkens (L-5) ~ Seraphim, Percy
TonyMontana (L-5) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, VP Baltar
Seraphim (L-6) ~ Nikanor,

Gammagooey

Gammagooey (L-6) ~ Gammagooey

Debonair Danny DiPietro (L-7) ~

TonyMontana

Minimum (L-7)

Not Voting:

TonyMontana

-Still waiting to hear from my TonyMontana replacement...

---Another page steal! I have no idea how I do it~

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(20%)

[Nikanor]

What are you trying to show with that game? Both of those scum were posting on page 1. They didn't lurk through the random vote stage.

Well, not the RVS, but right after the RVS is when I started to flake out, and I was scum. And I think the pace of the two games are roughly comparable.

That's reasonable by itself. But it starts to look like your going on a general lurker hunt when you bring Percy into the discussion. I guess we could argue semantics over what "catching up ASAP" means, which is literally "as soon as possible", which for him seemed to be 10 hours. If Percy had said "catching up now", that would be more black-and-white. Did you see read into his wording like this, or was there something else that made him stand out from someone like Tony who hadn't posted at all by that point?

I usually see ASAP as "right now," and I always have. The point I've been trying to make this whole time is that not following up on promises to post is scummy, rather than that Percy was scummy for lurking, because I wouldn't classify not posting for ten hours as lurking.

Even in the random vote stage?

Well, no, but I don't see how that matters.

It's the whole, "I'm going to attack people over BS" reasoning. His attacks of Percy and myself for lurking when we obv were not stink to high heaven, imo.

Again, I wasn't attacking Percy for lurking, although I won't deny that I attacked you for lurking. Something about posting in other games but not this one set off bells for me.

Yes, I think it very much impacts it. As I said above, saying "I'm busy, but you can expect a post soon." is pretty much par for the course with Percy. I guess you not knowing him gives you a bit of an excuse, but it's still a pretty poorly fashioned attack.

Okay, and the fact that I called Percy out for that is scummy how? I don't know Percy; I didn't know that he does that all the time. Do you expect me to do meta research on every person in this game? Because if I see something as scummy, I'm bringing it up. I don't see why you're attacking me here, though. Me not knowing him gives me an excuse, yet I'm still scummy for it? How does that work out, exactly?

The biggest issue was that you clearly weren't looking at context at all. I had just posted in this thread not that long ago and essentially nothing worth mentioning had happened here. Meanwhile, I do have other games that are much more advanced and actually require my attention. I'm not sure if you were just stirring shit to have a discussion going or actually believed the garbage you were saying.

Well, while I did believe in what I said, how you have responded has made me reconsider. Your explanation makes sense. I just really didn't have anything better to go on for the moment, and I prefer overzealous pushing of weak scumtells to standing back and waiting in the RVS.

Have you checked any of my games to confirm your suspicions as to whether this is how I play?

Um, no. I wasn't aware that meta research was a requirement for membership in this town. Sorry about that.

(The point is that your vote was lazy, and you continue to be lazy when it comes to this point)

I'm always lazy. I play in six games at a time and don't do research.

(Also, you are clearly aware of your meta, and may be trying to say "I'm posting, so I'm not scum!", or at least suggesting it)

LIES AND SLANDER! On this note, though, have you done any research into my meta?

It is spin, but I'm not going to go into a detailed critique of your case against him; I'll wait for Seraphim to post his thoughts, and then I'll post mine.

Sounds good.

Pom, explain to me why the dramonic wagon is better than Awesome wagon?

It isn't.

Vote: Nikanor.

I just reread the case. I agree with it, but don't have time for explanation now. Coming tomorrow.

Har har har. Opportunistic much?

And I see that at this point Seraphim is still not posting. Promises a catch-up post, and doesn't deliver.

Because the way d3x mentioned something, then Nikanor says that he does it as scum. Well... also, as mentioned previously, I don't like how he decided that his own meta fit Percy.

As I think I've explained before (unless I'm getting my games mixed up), I scumhunt by taking what I do as scum and comparing it against the play of others. Although that method probably needs to be ditched, seeing as how I've lost pretty much every game I've been town in.

So he's generalizing from his personal behavior? So what? I absolutely do that at times; "here's what I would do as scum in this situation does this person's behavior match my expectations"? You can argue his conclusions are wrong, but I absolutely see nothing in that logical process that indicates scum.

This. DDD explains it so much more eloquently than I, but this is exactly what I'm trying to say.

a) Calling someone out for posting in another game is valid if that person is lurking in the one you're playing. We were on p26. That's ridiculous. The fact that you Voted him is one thing, the fact that you backed it up and held to your nonRandom Vote is another. What exactly would you expect him to post? RVS nonsense? What is the Scum motivation behind VP's actions here? b)Did you check on the other players to see if they were posting anywhere else? If it's a valid ScumHunting option for page 2 and you didn't, why not?

I believe I've explained this already.
And seriously, not everyone is as hard a worker as you, d3x. It's a weak scumtell. I'm not going to go out and do research on something unless I think I'm really onto something.

The problem is, you do this as Town, as I pointed out. I don't know what your angle was in saying you 'don't remember doing this' and then saying you try to forget the examples I posted {in the same post}, but it's not working on me.

I don't understand. I didn't ignore anything, nor do I think I missed anything.

Hey Nikanor: Did you get an ability by going to L-1?

Nope.

And what would you guys say if I told you that Nik was posting extensively {and as recently as yesterday} in his other ongoing game?

I'd call you a dirty fucking liar.
The only day I posted "extensively" on was Friday, and that was because three of my games had Friday as a deadline. From Friday to today, I've been posting once or twice per day. I had a rather busy (but fun) weekend, and was limited to mostly modding and not posting walls of text. I can tell you all about my awesome weekend if you'd like.

Tag fixed. ~Vi

[Nikanor]

Anyway, I decided to put my opinions in a separate post:

Seraphim is a chronic lurker, and still probably scum.

Yes, I think it very much impacts it. As I said above, saying "I'm busy, but you can expect a post soon." is pretty much par for the course with Percy. I guess you not knowing him gives you a bit of an excuse, but it's still a pretty poorly fashioned attack.

This is a crappy reason to attack someone, especially since this seems to be the cornerstone of VP's attacks against me. I'll give a silver dollar to anyone who can find exactly where VP starts thinking I'm scummy. Because I looked in his iso, and I couldn't find it.
VP is coasting scum pushing the easy Nikwagon. He doesn't add anything new to what others say against me. I invite everyone to iso VP and find one good reason for why he's voting me. Hint: you won't find it.

Unvote. Vote: VP Baltar.

Withholding judgement on Percy for now.

Pomegranate's vote on me was opportunistic at best. The timing and the way she quoted VP's post like that give me the shivers, especially given what I think of VP.

Porkens just seems to be pushing whatever wagon is biggest. His play strikes me as something I'd see from a hidden Tarhalindur Survivor in this setup. I have no real read on Porkens.

I don't get why Tony thinks that DDD is scum and vice-versa. DDD, could you summarize the reasons for why Tony is scum?

dramonic is actively lurking, as always. Not really an alignment tell.

[Nikanor]

One thing I forgot to ask:

And what would you guys say if I told you that Nik was posting extensively {and as recently as yesterday} in his other ongoing game?

Why did you think this, anyway?

[d3x]

I'd call you a dirty fucking liar.

Firstly, I'm not biting. You remember what happened the last time we threw down over you getting personal, right? Back off, Nik. <- edited a few times for decency

Secondly, I'd call posting 4 times in one game in one day {Monday} extensive when you'd been MIA in this game since last fucking Thursday.

Thirdly, it's almost 3am here, I'm falling asleep, I'm half drunk, and I have to work in the morning. I'll respond to the rest tomorrow.

[Jahudo]

Tony's replacing out doesn't look tactical, but I'm still not sure if his activity and content levels were. I still like the case on him because he was focused on defending against DDD over weak reasons instead of commenting and scumhunting in the thread in general. It looked like Tony was feeding off DDD's attacks to ignore the rest of the thread.

I'm interested to see who Vi pulls out of her bag of replacements next.

--------------------

I don't see the case on VP yet, but I'm interested to see how VP responds and if Nik elaborates. We've still got time to get a competing wagon going, but I'm not sure if this is it. And I do see reasoning from VP, though not in his vote post obviously.

[Vi]

semioldguy replaces TonyMontana. Welcome him!

[VP Baltar]

Just a heads up, I have a lot of meetings today so I may not be able to post a reply post until I get home. Needless to say, Nik's "case" on me is poo poo. I need to look closely at the rest and see if he deserves to live or die for his promised content.

[Percy]

silly questions in 151. Meta defence in 151. 151 in general. OMGUS too

1. Call them "silly" if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that

you can't answer them

.
2. The vote on me was about Nikanor's meta. I was pointing out that mine and his are not the same.
aaaaand that leaves OMGUS.

Re: Gammagooey's self vote, it is pretty weird. Suggestions to test out the mechanics at 25%? A far-fetched plan to shoot lurkers? Blerg. The exchange between VP and gamma on page nine feels very strongly like town on town, though.

I usually see ASAP as "right now," and I always have. The point I've been trying to make this whole time is that

not following up on promises to post

is scummy, rather than that Percy was scummy for lurking, because I wouldn't classify not posting for ten hours as lurking.

See, I can almost see your point. That is, if your vote was half-hearted and RVS-like. The fact that you have defended and inflated this "tell" is what is scummy.

I prefer overzealous pushing of weak scumtells to standing back and waiting in the RVS.

I can see that you're trying to make this about playstyle, about pro-actively leading the town out of the RVS. I'm not convinced, especially when you change gear into "I'm lazy lol" later on in your post.

And I see that at this point Seraphim is still not posting. Promises a catch-up post, and doesn't deliver.

You do have a point here.
... but then you vote VP Baltar!

VP is coasting scum pushing the easy Nikwagon. He doesn't add anything new to what others say against me.

I see this post (which adds to your wagon) and then

you

stop posting until your latest post. Attempting to attribute this to a failure on VP's part reeks of scum.

Also,

I don't see the case on VP yet, but I'm interested to see how VP responds and if Nik elaborates. We've still got time to get a competing wagon going, but I'm not sure if this is it. And I do see reasoning from VP, though not in his vote post obviously.

You don't see the case on VP (and in fact imply you disagree), but you're commenting on the viability of a wagon? This is fluff and fence-sitting.

I still think Porkens is scum, but I will be voting Nikanor come deadline.

Still waiting on Seraphim.

Hi semi!

[semioldguy]

Hello. I've got some reading to do over the next few hours. If there are pertinent questions I should be aware of or that I should address before or while I am reading, post them and I'll be sure to check back as I am catching up.

I see that my vote is currently not in use... I'll have to do something about that shortly.

[Jahudo]

You don't see the case on VP (and in fact imply you disagree), but you're commenting on the viability of a wagon?

Not the viability of his specific wagon to get a lynch, but rather the positives of having any competing wagon (not just 1 vote, like most have competing wagons have been) today is good for analysis later on. And if there was a competing wagon on VP, I wouldn't be on it now.

[semioldguy]

Seraphim is due for a prod.

Vote: Porkens

@Porkens
Why would you ever be willing to lynch anybody on day one? It looks to me like an excuse to put off scum hunting. Mislynches are certainly bad on day one; they are bad every day.

I am honestly surprised more votes have not been generated in this direction.

@VP Baltar
What are your thoughts regarding the possible alignment of Porkens? You have questioned his play and appear to be suspicious, but not even a hint of a vote in that direction, why?

@Debonair Danny DePietro
Could you give an opinion on a suspect of yours other than Tony Montana in this game? You voting on an absent Tony this whole game has also enabled you to do nothing for much of the day thus far.

@Jahudo
What are your thoughts of Porkens as a potential competing wagon?

I dislike the speculation that is running around about potential powers being unlocked and disagree with any plan of trying to unlock the powers of players. There is no assurance of how each power is unlocked or that the ability that gets unlocked is even beneficial to the town or that the player even has control over it.

This seems like it would be a delay tactic, beneficial to scum, because they can move their vote around more or less freely without ever having to settle on any suspicions to make a real vote. We should be voting scum, not people we think might be town. We shouldn't create a situation where a necessary last minute scramble for a lynch target is more likely to occur.

[dramonic]

I am honestly surprised more votes have not been generated in this direction.

Porkens is a nice alternative, but I still feel more strongly for Nik. We can lynch him tomorrow if you really want.

[semioldguy]

I'm really not feeling the Nikanor wagon.

[dramonic]

That's because it's in the heart, not the senses.
No, seriously he's lurking the hell out.

[Gammagooey]

Semi-Have you played with Porkens before? He's certainly not the towniest person around but not caring about who gets lynched day 1 is pretty much par for the course for him, he did pretty much the same thing in Mafia Reverberation early on.

Percy- Yeah, it would have been a better plan earlier in the day, but I replaced in around 40-50% and the plan's origin and reasoning was mostly to try and get some shit done even while Nik Tony and Sera lurked their asses off. Now that all of them but Sera are here and answering questions I'm fine with scrapping the plan until tommorrow.

Unvote

Niiiik, you don't even mention me in your mega-post, I feel left out. I also think that your thing about saying VP And Pom And Sera are all scummy AND Porkens is a survivor is garbage, and looks like you're trying to get attention off you by pointing out other players that are attacking you.

I'll be voting Nik, gonna wait a bit for Sera's prod to go through though.

Mod/Vi

Prod Sera please. With something pointer this time, like a spear if possible.

[semioldguy]

No I haven't played with him before, nor is that the extent of my read on him.

@Gammagooey
If you're going to be voting him anyway why don't you just do it now? What reason is there for you to wait?

[Gammagooey]

Because I want to see if Sera actually posts something or if he'll just continue lurking, and if I gave someone else the hammer and they took it I'd consider myself just as responsible for letting Sera get away with saying nothing as they would be.

[semioldguy]

Who would you feel you'd be potentially giving the hammer to?

Nikanor has previously been at L-1. Debonair Danny DePietro and Percy both could have hammered and didn't. I am not going to vote Nikanor. Nikanor is not likely to self-hammer. Seraphim isn't here unless he picks up his prod (in which case the reason you are waiting to vote is no longer relevant since he would have to post in order to bring down a hammer). Which means the only person who's hammer you'd have any reason to fear is VP Baltar's.

[Gammagooey]

You probably have a point there.

Don't hammer until Sera shows up/gets replaced prease.

Vote:Nikanor

[Pomegranate]

Pom, explain to me why the dramonic wagon is better than Awesome wagon?

It isn't.

Vote: Nikanor.

I just reread the case. I agree with it, but don't have time for explanation now. Coming tomorrow.

Har har har. Opportunistic much?

And I see that at this point Seraphim is still not posting. Promises a catch-up post, and doesn't deliver.

Because the way d3x mentioned something, then Nikanor says that he does it as scum. Well... also, as mentioned previously, I don't like how he decided that his own meta fit Percy.

As I think I've explained before (unless I'm getting my games mixed up), I scumhunt by taking what I do as scum and comparing it against the play of others. Although that method probably needs to be ditched, seeing as how I've lost pretty much every game I've been town in.

Could you clarify whet you meant about opportuninsm? Was it that I jumped on a large wagon, or that I did so when asked, or something else?

Also, I guess I understand your method of scumhunting, but I really can't say that I agree with it.

Tag fixed. ~Vi

[Porkens]

Seraphim is due for a prod.

Vote: Porkens

@Porkens
Why would you ever be willing to lynch anybody on day one? It looks to me like an excuse to put off scum hunting. Mislynches are certainly bad on day one; they are bad every day.

I believe that long day ones are detrimental to the town. I have to data to support that, but it is my feeling.

I guess it sort of is putting off scumhunting, in a way. I, personally, can RARELY scum-hunt effectively on day one. Sure there's the occasional gift scum who puts his neck on the block, but usually it's just noise to me.

Compared to a later-game situation, day one mislynches aren't particularly bad.

[semioldguy]

I believe that long day ones are detrimental to the town. I have to data to support that, but it is my feeling.

I think the a long day is more likely to be the effect rather than the cause. The town doesn't do poorly because there is a long day, the town has a long day because it is doing poorly. The greater the length of the day to me indicates that a town is generally not doing well (barring things such as investigation results and the like).

I, personally, can RARELY scum-hunt effectively on day one. Sure there's the occasional gift scum who puts his neck on the block, but usually it's just noise to me.

I find that it is not as difficult to scum-hunt on the first day as many make it out to be.

[VP Baltar]

Again, I wasn't attacking Percy for lurking, although I won't deny that I attacked you for lurking. Something about posting in other games but not this one set off bells for me.

I had posted in the previous 24 hours for crying out loud. I'm not sitting on this thread responding to every single post made. I don't know how you think posting the same day and making sure I'm caught up in my other games is somehow scummy.

Okay, and the fact that I called Percy out for that is scummy how? I don't know Percy; I didn't know that he does that all the time. Do you expect me to do meta research on every person in this game? Because if I see something as scummy, I'm bringing it up. I don't see why you're attacking me here, though. Me not knowing him gives me an excuse, yet I'm still scummy for it? How does that work out, exactly?

I said a "bit of an excuse", not that you get off scot free for it. It IS still somewhat scummy because you didn't give him ANY real time to post. I mean, I think that Tony's lurking is scummy but you didn't seem me jumping on him eight hours after his post saying he'd catch up after work. Life freaking happens and I think town is much more likely to give consideration to that than scum is.

This is a crappy reason to attack someone, especially since this seems to be the cornerstone of VP's attacks against me. I'll give a silver dollar to anyone who can find exactly where VP starts thinking I'm scummy. Because I looked in his iso, and I couldn't find it.

First, attacking your faux-looking scumhunting is not a crappy reason to attack you. Pretty sure I started thinking you were scummy back when I voted you and were asking you all those questions...I don't see how that is unclear. Finally, I think it's hilarious you think I'm the one coasting in this game when your best attack has been "OMG Percy didn't post for 10 hours". diescumdie.

He doesn't add anything new to what others say against me.

To quote a phrase, "dirty fucking liar". Did I say it right? Also, it's hard to add anything more than I did when you weren't posting in this thread for a good portion of the day.

Porkens just seems to be pushing whatever wagon is biggest. His play strikes me as something I'd see from a hidden Tarhalindur Survivor in this setup. I have no real read on Porkens.

lol, what?

You don't see the case on VP (and in fact imply you disagree), but you're commenting on the viability of a wagon? This is fluff and fence-sitting.

Yerp. I got the same reason from the Tony wagon comment as well. Jahudo, if you want a counter wagon why are you so tentatively trying to feel one out instead of just getting one going?

What are your thoughts regarding the possible alignment of Porkens? You have questioned his play and appear to be suspicious, but not even a hint of a vote in that direction, why?

Porkens definitely bothers me, but I've been more worried about Nik/Tony. I personally think the scum have a great deal of incentive to lurk in this game and AT LEAST one of them would be trying to take advantage of it. Additionally, Porkens sort of has a rep for shooting from the hip in my experience so I've been trying to differentiate if this is him just upping his recklessness or actually being scum.

This seems like it would be a delay tactic, beneficial to scum, because they can move their vote around more or less freely without ever having to settle on any suspicions to make a real vote. We should be voting scum, not people we think might be town. We shouldn't create a situation where a necessary last minute scramble for a lynch target is more likely to occur.

I don't see how that plan would take more than one or two RL days to orchastrate. Additionally, nothing about the plan prevents people from scumhunting at the same time.

Semi-Have you played with Porkens before? He's certainly not the towniest person around but not caring about who gets lynched day 1 is pretty much par for the course for him, he did pretty much the same thing in Mafia Reverberation early on.

Just based on my recollection, I think his apathy here and lack of actual scumhunting is much higher. Also, do you have any experience with porkens apart from that game?

Which means the only person who's hammer you'd have any reason to fear is VP Baltar's.

====[ ]

Ready and waiting!

[VP Baltar]

I believe that long day ones are detrimental to the town.

Two week days = long? LOL