Open 212--Hard Boiled Mafia (Game Over)

[Jeffcole1]

Mod: I saw you were in need of 3 replacement. Can we get an extension for at least one week if this is correct.

I actually only need 2 replacements since hitogoroshi came back; as for the deadline extension, I'm considering it, but there may not be much point if I can't find the replacements I need... If there's anything anyone can do to help with that, I'd really appreciate it.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.18:

evilsnail (3): Deer, farside22, hitogoroshi
chauchaudotcom (2): havingfitz, semioldguy
havingfitz (2): chauchaucotdom, Mysterious Mystery Man

Not Voting (2): Confucius, evilsnail

Deadline in 3 days.

[farside22]

Alright people we are coming down to deadline. I want people to just focus on their top 2 suspects and see if we can get a lynch.

I would vote for evilsnail and havingfitz.

[havingfitz]

Apologies for my absence. If it's any consolation (probably isn't) I did very well on my tests that I studied for instead of doing this. xP

I'll finish the ISO's tomorrow. In the mean time, despite me not finishing the ISO's, deadlines in five days and I'm alright with picking a lurker that others have found legitimately scummy. Obviously I might switch with more research but for the moment it's important to at least get votes in play.

Vote:evilsnail

Getting rid of a lurker who is is high on people's list of suspects would be a good thing...but does evilsnail fall into that category? farside placed a vote on evil and now you have and neither was accompanied by a reason. And those are the first two votes evil has received the entire game.

Were there some specific suspicions raised towards evil that either of you support? Or reasons you have formulated yourselves?

While I do not like lurkers/inactive players...I don't see that as a reason to lynch in and of itself.

It's kind of a lazy vote imo which I find more scummy than the lurking.

[havingfitz]

Alright people we are coming down to deadline. I want people to just focus on their top 2 suspects and see if we can get a lynch.

I would vote for evilsnail and havingfitz.

Wow...hardly any posts the last two days (by anyone) and I get called out while making a post (is that a good example of being ninja'd?).

farside...I don't recall...have you voiced suspcions of me previously and would you mind elaborating on your willingness to vote me?

[hitogoroshi]

Getting rid of a lurker who is is high on people's list of suspects would be a good thing...but does evilsnail fall into that category? farside placed a vote on evil and now you have and neither was accompanied by a reason. And those are the first two votes evil has received the entire game.

Were there some specific suspicions raised towards evil that either of you support? Or reasons you have formulated yourselves?

While I do not like lurkers/inactive players...I don't see that as a reason to lynch in and of itself.

It's kind of a lazy vote imo which I find more scummy than the lurking.

Lazy voting is a contextual thing. There is pretty much no one really pushing a case. I'm still not in a position to be pushing one myself since I've been so damn disconnected from this game. This is why I brought up something like "Sell me a case" in my first post. Sometimes the town needs leaders and sometimes it needs followers, and until the school year ends I'm not comfortable being a leader.

But this leaves me in an awkward spot when

no one else

is leading in any significant way. I've found Confucius's posts to be pretty logical and agreeable, but apparently he found meta that MMM attacks his attackers in all his games (as you probably could have guessed, I certainty haven't looked at any meta given that I haven't had the time to keep a firm grasp on the game) and so right now he's not voting. As a benefit, in contrast to what you said, there's suspicion of snail voiced not just from farside but also Deer, Confucius, and semioldguy.

Now deadline is almost upon us, and no one is really doing anything. And yes, in this situation, someone needs to get lynched, and a lazy vote is about the only kind I can cast right now. The logic for it goes something like this; snail is helping the least independently of alignment, so if he's townie it'll be the least bad mislynch, and if he's scum we just stopped him from getting away with murder by falling off the grid for multiple weeks and not catching flak for it.

ISO Time!

Mysterious Mystery Man

My god I can't wade through this. I'm more or less with Confucius on this - not liking MMM's answers to his questions but able to defer to meta. (But here's a thought. MMM and Confucius scumbuddies argue, then Confucius backs off with "seems it's his meta" and the town agrees because, hell, if the guy attacking him said that it must be true. That's a little too paranoid to be true but it's still a blind spot I'm not 100% happy leaving blind.)

Here's a thing. ISO 48 MMM flips out with dozens of exclamation points because "Mcgriddle voted him without reasoning". Yet in his previous post, he voted havingfitz to 'speed the game along', and in his latest post, he wonders why havingfitz suspects him?



It's hard to tell whether he's town or scum with a meta like 'flips the fuck out when people vote for him', and a MMM lynch might be worth it just to resolve the question and improve the signal/noise ratio but he's at least here and so that's a better question to ponder tomorrow.

Nick (and Ythan and ABR but ABR left right away so he doesn't get a subheading)

Ythan

Most of his responses seem to be the 'ongoing game information' thing that got him replaced out. In the end it was just a pile of garbage because he's town and I'm town, so what the hell was that about I don't even. Not really a lot else I can gather from this.

Nick

God damn! The confirmed town slots are conspiring to not give me anything useful. Proof that at least one townie also suspected MMM but that's nothing particularly damning. And Nick didn't leave any other legacy to pursue. :/

semioldguy

I like semi's posts pretty well. That being said, in the semi v Confucius 'debate', I'm more on Confucius's side, in that without meta evidence suggesting otherwise I would see MMM's brand of attacking your attacker as more scum motivated. Of course, he dropped that case because of MMM's town meta, and it was semi that suggested he look at that, so that's a point for semi for sure. Still, barring that point, nothing particularly suspect as of now.

Semi (is that the abbreviation you like?), I think evilsnail is the best lynch today. farside, Confucius, and you all have some degree of suspicion of him, and there's a strong policy element as icing on the lynch cake. If you think Chau is the better lynch, I want to hear why.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

I gotta say, havingfitz's 428 makes it look like he's buddies with evilsnail. As for the third scum, I think it's got to be either CC.com or semioldguy, but for the life of me I can't be sure which one.

Unvote, vote: evilsnail

I can't see getting a majority for anyone else in time.

@ hitogoroshi: I find it interesting how at first you state the importance of coming to an agreement for the lynch quickly, yet you criticize my vote on havingfitz which attempted to do just that. Also, I can think of numerous reasons why havingfitz would suspect me, but I still don't know what his reasons are. It's possible he's just bandwagoning.

@ havingfitz: I think you would only be 'ninja'd' if farside22 said the same thing you were going to say.

[havingfitz]

Lazy voting is a contextual thing. There is pretty much no one really pushing a case. I'm still not in a position to be pushing one myself since I've been so damn disconnected from this game. This is why I brought up something like "Sell me a case" in my first post. Sometimes the town needs leaders and sometimes it needs followers, and until the school year ends I'm not comfortable being a leader.

But this leaves me in an awkward spot when

no one else

is leading in any significant way. I've found Confucius's posts to be pretty logical and agreeable, but apparently he found meta that MMM attacks his attackers in all his games (as you probably could have guessed, I certainty haven't looked at any meta given that I haven't had the time to keep a firm grasp on the game) and so right now he's not voting. As a benefit, in contrast to what you said, there's suspicion of snail voiced not just from farside but also Deer, Confucius, and semioldguy.

Now deadline is almost upon us, and no one is really doing anything. And yes, in this situation, someone needs to get lynched, and a lazy vote is about the only kind I can cast right now. The logic for it goes something like this; snail is helping the least independently of alignment, so if he's townie it'll be the least bad mislynch, and if he's scum we just stopped him from getting away with murder by falling off the grid for multiple weeks and not catching flak for it.

When you say “in contrast to what you said” to me…what were you referring to? I mentioned evil had not received any votes and asked for your suspicions towards evil (either from you or from others). You agree it’s a lazy vote. OK. A quick ISO of evil doesn’t raise any flags for me and the fact he hasn’t posted anywhere on the site in ~12 days gives me more of a townie feel than scum (only in relation to his absence mind you). A bandwagon on evil feels like a policy lynch for lurking (and not even active lurking at that) and MMM’s switch to evil seems very convenient…and scummy.

I gotta say, havingfitz's 428 makes it look like he's buddies with evilsnail. As for the third scum, I think it's got to be either CC.com or semioldguy, but for the life of me I can't be sure which one.

Unvote, vote: evilsnail

I can't see getting a majority for anyone else in time.

@ havingfitz: I think you would only be 'ninja'd' if farside22 said the same thing you were going to say.

MMM…my questions regarding the votes for evil are based on the fact I do not see the reasons associated with the votes and I would be opposed to any similar votes (ie for no apparent reason). On that note, what are your reasons for voting evil…for voting for no apparent reason? Or because you want to ensure there is a lynch?

And now you suspect chau as well? What happened to the town read you had on her? Feels like distancing to me. I find your game to be very flakey and opportunistic. I think that is scummier than being AWOL. I still suspect chau but I’ve just got a scummier feel from you at the moment.

Vote: MMM

[semioldguy]

It's more that since chauchaudotcom is here and that evilsnail isn't it is easier to pressure and gets reads from her than from evilsnail. We also can't get a claim from someone who isn't here before lynching them.

@Mod: I am currently voting chauchuadotcom as of Post 420

The errors have been fixed.

@chauchaudotcom
Leading someone with questions is a way to make them come out looking bad, especially if you know where the answer to your question is leading. You can just as well get explanations about their throught process by commenting on something or simply asking "what was your thought process here?" rather than leading them.

[Confucius]

I've reread the game.

Vote: semioldguy

a.)

I do not like semioldguy's page 5 vote for Ythan in Post 111.. His case was basically that “Ythan worked himself into a dead end” by pursuing RayFrost and supposedly not pursuing other people. This is a ridiculous reason to vote for somebody on page 5 of a game – semioldguy himself was not pursuing

anybody

, so why should he expect Ythan to be pursuing not one player, but two players? semioldguy was expecting something from Ythan that semioldguy himself was not providing. This is what logicians call a double standard.

Not only that, but semioldguy seems to be ignoring that when a player truly believes they have found likely scum (as Ythan believed he did), they are not about to start attacking a

second

player.

And then

semioldguy never moved his vote from Ythan (NickF227). It is fittingly ironic that semioldguy helped lynched Ythan on the basis that Ythan basically stuck to one suspect, and then semioldguy turned around and did the exact same thing.

b.)

I do not like that semioldguy

today

suddenly thinks it is suspicious that Mysterious Mystery Man's Post 105 suggested that he knew BioHazard was town, but semioldguy somehow did not notice this until Day Two when farside22 made that

exact same point

in Post 135 and BioHazard repeated that point in Post 145.

c.)

I don't like his suggestion that McGriddle was scummy when McGriddle replaced in and observed that ksun was obviously not tactically lurking because ksun was replaced for not posting. Players defend their predecessors all the time. This same comment also applies to chauchaudotcom.

d.)

A good deal of your posts are just slightly disagreeing with people on theoretical reasons, whilst not really taking stands on people. These posts just make you look like you are a “reasonable player,” while you are not doing anything to actively help the town.

e.)

I have found it very strange how people have been attacking chauchaudotcom for asking so many questions without giving opinions when it feels to me like semioldguy has been doing that exact same thing. The only difference is that semioldguy also tosses in his theoretical disagreements (as noted above).

f.)

I really do not like Post 350, which is why I FoS'd semioldguy in my very next post of the game.

First, semioldguy does not give a satisfactory response for “missing” the post where Mysterious Mystery Man implied that he knew BioHazard was town. I do not believe it specifically because semioldguy has gone out of his way during this game to mention that he has "read the game" and has constantly asked players "have you read my posts?"

Second, semioldguy paints both myself and farside22 as “tunneling” on Mysterious Mystery Man, while also saying that both myself and farside22 are posting “unnecessarily.”

~

I still do not like Mysterious Mystery Man's posts. I can very easily see a semioldguy + Mysterious Mystery Man scumpairing. In fact, I think it is still the most likely scumpairing, though I am unsure on the third partner. I am really not understanding how semioldguy seems to have a constant blind spot for Mysterious Mystery Man. At the beginning of Day Two, semioldguy's top two suspects were Mysterious Mystery Man and evilsnail. Now it has switched to evilsnail and chauchaudotcom. I get the feeling you are trying to call Mysterious Mystery Man “suspicious” while doing everything in your power to not actually have to vote for him.

I think semioldguy is either scum with MMM, or he is trying to make MMM out to be his partner by selective avoidance (a tactic I have used to great effect as scum in the past).

My best guess at the third partner is evilsnail. I do not like his involvement in the game (which was almost solely reactionary > proactive), and if I am correct about Mysterious Mystery Man, then the fact that he voted Ythan over Mysterious Mystery Man because there was “enough pressure” on MMM is enough for me.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.19:

evilsnail (4): Deer, farside22, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man

chauchaudotcom (1): semioldguy
havingfitz (1): chauchaudotcom
Mysterious Mystery Man (1): havingfitz
semioldguy (1): Confucius

Not Voting (1): evilsnail

Deadline in 2 days.

Good news! I finally got a replacement. Pittbunny replaces Deer, and the deadline has been extended by one week. The new deadline is Tuesday, May 4th, at 8:00 PM forum time.

[Pittbunny]

Doing a read tonight, will evaluate tomorrow.

[Pittbunny]

Or tonight, while I'm still awake and not studying for finals o.O

Anyway, Deer left me with a bundle of inactivity, so this should be interesting. As it stands, I've noted a shift from Nick/MMM pushing on Day 1 to a MMM Push followed by a retraction followed by a shift towards Snail and Semi, with a smattering of Chauchau, finishing with a L-1 of Snail. Is this accurate thus far?

That being said, I'd like to examine potential hammer sources for the sake of "It hasn't been done before".

Chauchau - If she risks being a hammer twice in a row, I'll be quite impressed. I doubt she will though, especially as she isn't on the clock this time.

Confucius - Will sip his tea and watch. Especially if he intends to emulate his namesake.

Me - I just got in, and want some input data. No way in hell am I going to hammer. Well, I sort of can't anyway, as Deer threw in my vote already. If you guys want Deer's vote to back off to prolong the wagon, say the word, but I'll temporarily trust my predecessor's judgment.

Fitz - Null read. Obviously, hammering with 8 days left an a new replacement would be stupid, to say the least. This applies for all people, but I throw it here because I wouldn't want Fitz's name to be lonely.

Semi - Maybe. To elaborate, I keep a notepad file open whenever I see what I consider at the time to be significant player interactions, and mark down the pair and the posting relationship, with a small bit on the side that more or less says "Trust/Distrust", in regards to whether or not they are truly antagonistic/helping one another. I've had semi pop up alongside Snail, Farside, and most recently Chau, though the last one is more of a gut-based inkling that any particular repetitious behavior.

Snail - If he does it, he has an agenda. I don't believe that any particular townie role involved has a useful seppuku-gambit for him to apply, so naturally if he offs himself it's due to trying to protect his mates. Probably not the best move considering how long this round has lasted, but I still feel like it's a week left and not "close call" and offer the viewpoint just in case.


As to MMM targeting (as it is QUITE the hot topic around here, noticably), I disapprove of his posting style. I have seen a large degree of variety ranging from logical and 'earnest' posts to what essentially is a temper tantrum with caps lock and multiple punctuation marks lining a sentence end.
Despite all this, I find it hard to believe that someone who was awarded best scum play (this is the correct person I refer to, yes?) would A. utilize the same strategy again and B. would play in such a self-incriminating active manner. Of course, that IS how he won the scum award if my read of this game is correct, but I offer A as why he wouldn't be doing so. It takes guts and cunning to pull off the same strategy as the one you're known for, and I'm not of the belief that he's currently up to that kind of gambit. He's not necessarily a townie, of course, but I just think that he's either an obnoxiously efficient and strangely strong scum or just having a bad game as a townie.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@ havingfitz: Plenty of people have expressed suspicion of evilsnail, if you are unfamiliar with the case, then you should read back, your critique of the bandwagon confirms my suspicion you're buddies with evilsnail.

@ Confucius: There's a contradiction in your case on me. When you unvoted based on a meta read, it implied that your case was built on another opposite meta read. Meta is a fairly weak tell, and usually only used to supplement other cases. So, the only logical reason you would unvote based on only a meta, is if your vote was only based on a meta. In which case, there wouldn't be a case left, the meta reads cancel each other out. So, why would you still express suspicion of me? That implies that you have other reasoning I am scum, which makes your unvote illogical.

[havingfitz]

@ havingfitz: Plenty of people have expressed suspicion of evilsnail, if you are unfamiliar with the case, then you should read back, your critique of the bandwagon confirms my suspicion you're buddies with evilsnail.

When I look at votecounts I do not see any votes on evil during D1. So when players start voting him without a reason I ask for those reasons. I did not say no one had provided any. I assume the players voting him have reasons they have formulated themselves or reasons that others have expressed. Hence my question asking them to provide those reasons. I asked for your reasoning as well and you apparently have none. I think focusing on someone who has dropped out of the game is more than likely a convenient mislynch for scum. And the only thing that can "confirm your suspicion" two players were 'buddies' would be their eventual flip/revelation of their roles. You are easily convinced.

[Confucius]

@ Confucius: There's a contradiction in your case on me. When you unvoted based on a meta read, it implied that your case was built on another opposite meta read. Meta is a fairly weak tell, and usually only used to supplement other cases. So, the only logical reason you would unvote based on only a meta, is if your vote was only based on a meta. In which case, there wouldn't be a case left, the meta reads cancel each other out. So, why would you still express suspicion of me? That implies that you have other reasoning I am scum, which makes your unvote illogical.

Incorrect. My vote on you originally had nothing to do with you meta, because I was not aware of your meta.

My vote on you was largely based on the fact that your play in this game (as well as your suspicions) seems to largely hinge on whoever has voted for you. This is normally a fairly reliable scumtell, because it suggests you are not so much scumhunting as you are calling people who vote for you scummy.

Then I noticed you had been nominated for a Scummie award as scum, so I decided to read that game. I saw that your play in that game had the exact same pattern, which bolstered the case against you.

Because I later had some time to look through another game, I checked a game where you were town. And I was rather unhappy to find that your play in that game unfortunately had the exact same pattern. This suggests that the fact that you attack people who vote for you is a null tell in your case.

I still think you are suspicious for some of reasoning, and I still do not like some of your reactions in this game. I especially dislike how you were trying to characterize me as a troll attempting to "slander" you. But right now I am liking semioldguy even less.

~

Pittbunny, I find it strange that your entrance analysis is based on "who will hammer." Who do you think is scum?

[chauchaudotcom]

I would vote for evilsnail and havingfitz.

Earlier you had fitz IGMYOU just like you have MMM now. What changed fitz to scummier then MMM?

I gotta say, havingfitz's 428 makes it look like he's buddies with evilsnail. As for the third scum, I think it's got to be either CC.com or semioldguy, but for the life of me I can't be sure which one.

Let's scratch the fact that the first assumption seems unlikely to me but how in the world did you arrive at the conclusion that the third scum would be me or semi?

Unvote, vote: evilsnail

I can't see getting a majority for anyone else in time.

Why would you bandwagon someone who isn't even here to defend themself? Seeing how we have a week isn't it far more useful to pursue subjects that are actually here and can address your points? Especially given that your reasoning isn't even that evil is the most scummy but just that there are no wagons forming against anyone else.

Wt...you didn't just bandwagon but you L-1'd him with a weeks time to spare and a new replacement?! =/

Leading someone with questions is a way to make them come out looking bad, especially if you know where the answer to your question is leading. You can just as well get explanations about their throught process by commenting on something or simply asking "what was your thought process here?" rather than leading them.

How exactly would leading questions make someone look bad? The point of them is to help people understand your train of thinking so that they can better understand where you are trying to get at. You risk the chance of making someone look bad whenever you point out their mistakes, regardless of how you do it. But the point being that it is a persuasive technique. But you need to be persuasive as scum AND as town. And you seem to completely miss the fact that I was pretty much asking "what was your thought process here?" to people while pointing out that their case was poorly grounded.

---

Pittbunny, you're on the wagon for Snail right now (because of Deer). Are you content with where your vote is right now?

[chauchaudotcom]

and

Unvote: Havingfitz

. I gotta go back to the drawing board and do a re-read. I've been severely disconnected from this game.

[Pittbunny]

Pittbunny, I find it strange that your entrance analysis is based on "who will hammer." Who do you think is scum?

All players may be scum until a mechanic makes them sufficiently proved otherwise. I have favorites, but I'm slow to judge until they start interacting with me and not my predecessors. That being said, what are your thoughts on Deer's inactivity which lead to me coming in?

[quote="chauchau]
Pittbunny, you're on the wagon for Snail right now (because of Deer). Are you content with where your vote is right now? [/quote]

I will trust Deer's reasoning until requested to do otherwise or my thoughts sufficiently override his. That being said, what are your thoughts on Deer's inactivity which lead to me coming in?

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@ Confucius: Then what was the reasoning for your unvote?

I feel comfortable with my vote on evilsnail. Even with a week, this game is slow, and I feel relatively sure he's one of the scum due to his vote patterns, and bandwagoning D1. My suspicions are on CC.com and SOG because they suspect each other, and I don't think they are both wrong.

@ Pittbunny: You are trusting the reasoning of a player you replaced because of inactivity, i.e. someone who doesn't care much about the game. What assurance do you have that the reasoning is valid?

[Pittbunny]

I don't have any assurance; it is a placeholding vote that presumably works towards my role's cause until I find data which overrides this presumption.

Having been in a game with Deer before, I at least trust that he's not a complete idiot.

[havingfitz]

I feel comfortable with my vote on evilsnail. Even with a week, this game is slow, and I feel relatively sure he's one of the scum due to his vote patterns, and bandwagoning D1. My suspicions are on CC.com and SOG because they suspect each other, and I don't think they are both wrong.

His vote patterns and bandwagoning? He had a random vote on RayFrost and then a vote he maintained on the eventual mislynch...which you joined in on later. Does that make you a bandwagoner too?

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him now that his role appears abondoned?

Happy with my vote where it is.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

I feel comfortable with my vote on evilsnail. Even with a week, this game is slow, and I feel relatively sure he's one of the scum due to his vote patterns, and bandwagoning D1. My suspicions are on CC.com and SOG because they suspect each other, and I don't think they are both wrong.

His vote patterns and bandwagoning? He had a random vote on RayFrost and then a vote he maintained on the eventual mislynch...which you joined in on later. Does that make you a bandwagoner too?

He switched his suspicions constantly. He kept ready to switch to my bandwagon in case the tide turned.

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him now that his role appears abondoned?

Nice try. If I was going to OMGUS I could come up with a much better target.

Happy with my vote where it is.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.20:

evilsnail (4): farside22, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, Pittbunny

chauchaudotcom (1): semioldguy
Mysterious Mystery Man (1): havingfitz
semioldguy (1): Confucius

Not Voting (2): chauchaudotcom, evilsnail

[Confucius]

1.)

chauchaudotcom, your point against Mysterious Mystery Man of voting for evilsnail when the deadline has been extended is invalid. Mysterious Mystery Man voted for evilsnail when he was under the impression that deadline was going to be in about two days. The deadline was not extended until after that post.

2.)

Pittbunny, please unvote, read the game, and vote who you think is scum. You replaced into the game to play the game, not to play Deer's game. It will be difficult for the rest of us to get a read on your suspicions if you just defer to your predecessor. He who cannot speak for himself ought not speak at all.

3.)

havingfitz, do you

really

think Mysterious Mystery Man's vote on evilsnail today is a remnant of the fact that evilsnail claimed to be suspicious of Mysterious Mystery Man on Day One? I feel like you might trying to feed some fuel to the fire with that comment.

4.)

Mysterious Mystery Man, the reasoning for my unvote was that I may be letting my intense dislike for your pattern of posting (namely insulting players who vote for you) have too much of an effect on whether or not I thought you were scum.

Mysterious Mystery Man, could you give a detailed opinion of what you think of semioldguy?