Newbie 939 - Game Over

[Lagerdog]

My response to Jelly's comments.
First of all.

Deadline is 3rd May, so there should be no rush to lynch IMO.

vote: jelly jiggler

Hmm contradicting yourself there. That's usually not a good sign.

Not a contradiction - putting Jelly at L-3 is hardly a rush to lynch.

Secondly - I specifically stated

Whether he likes it or not, the fact is that asking when mafia can talk to each other is a very strange request to post. I've never encountered it happening before in my previous games, or the dozen or so I've read through.

not a definite scum tell

of course, but it stands out as weird.

Yet he says "How is asking for clarification a scumtell?" The answer is it isn't. (As I said in my post). He's attempting to twist my words.

I've only had minor suspicions of FC and even though I defended myself I only did that because there was really nothing else I could see. But I feel like these new guys are throwing off some bad vibes so I am going to take back my previous vote. Unvote
FoS LagerDog

OK, so I apply a bit of pressure on him and he drops his vote on FC like a hot potato. Then for good measure I get an OMGUS FOS.

Finally - this post:

I didn't say that he was trying to wagon. What I said was that he is saying one thing and doing another. That's a scum tell in my eyes.

He's still not getting it? Saying we shouldn't lynch hastily, and putting a second vote on him are perfectly compatible. Why say this is a scum tell - is he flapping?

Lager said that me asking that question is weird and he thinks its a scum tell. I said that weird =/= scum. Also I was calling razor's actions weird.

Oh no I didn't. I'll quote myself yet again: "

not a definite scum tell

of course".

Anyway on to the other matter:

Everyone who has played some games with Razorback before ( I see at least 3) can you please give us some clues to how razor plays. Does he tell lies like that a lot or lurks, or just talks non-sense ...etc?

It's the latter really. Have a look for yourself here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0 (Have a look at his ISO and you'll get the picture).

I'm hoping we can hear from IKD and FC soon - especially IKD as he was in the last game with Razor with me, and he is also our IC so could perhaps give us some advice. I'm more leaning to lynch him today after hearing his latest "reason" for his behaviour. I really don't dislike him - some of his posts are actually quite entertaining in a car crash type manner, but I accept he can be confusing and his slot is in my top three scum suspects.

Vote Count

razorback (3) - gandalf5166, FC Groningen, Pmac
jelly jiggler (2) - imkingdavid, Lagerdog
FC Groningen (1) - razorback
gandalf5166 (1) - Pulindar

Not Voting (2) - nopointinactingup, jelly jiggler

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

[imkingdavid]

Finally I have a chance to sit down and read through this. My apologies for my inactivity. It's bad for an IC to do that, and I know it.

Anyway, in an attempt to not write a five page post, I think it will be most efficient if I go ahead and respond to the most recent posts and then any of the more pressing issues/questions. If I miss a few questions, you're welcome to remind me and I will answer them later.

Also, I think it would be great if Pulindar would post sometime soon as well.

---

I'm hoping we can hear from IKD and FC soon - especially IKD as he was in the last game with Razor with me, and he is also our IC so could perhaps give us some advice. I'm more leaning to lynch him today after hearing his latest "reason" for his behaviour. I really don't dislike him - some of his posts are actually quite entertaining in a car crash type manner, but I accept he can be confusing and his slot is in my top three scum suspects.

English grammar 101: When you have a definite pronoun (such as "he" or "his"), it always refers to the most recent noun (except in the case of gender differences, or where it has been explained who is being referred to). The "he" in this sentence:

especially IKD as he was in the last game with Razor with me, and he is also our IC so could perhaps give us some advice.

(I think/hope) refers to a different person than the "him" in the very next sentence:

I'm more leaning to lynch him today after hearing his latest "reason" for his behaviour.

Everyone who has played some games with Razorback before ( I see at least 3) can you please give us some clues to how razor plays. Does he tell lies like that a lot or lurks, or just talks non-sense ...etc?

My last game was with him. He was scum (somehow he lasted to lylo), and

all

of his posts were full of spelling and grammatical errors

except

a few in which we was defending himself when he was attacked (in which there are almost

no

spelling or grammatical errors).

He says that is a new game so it's a "new razorback", but truthfully I have not seen much difference (although his grammar has improved slightly).

I know that I am

probably

biased in this matter, but I feel that given his previous playstyle alongside his current one, I am very willing to lynch him.

BTW, his post 227 is probably the scummiest post I have seen from him this game (granted, I haven't read through all of his posts yet). Here it is for those of you who don't want to look for it:

it simply means sometimes i have to walk a thin line to tell who is town and who is scum. and no matter how i push gandalf i can tell he's a simple pissed off newibe townie.

so the case being i'm go to let him go for now. and that said feel free to lynch me and give the mafia a free n-k if you'd like to.

The previous post, he seemed certain that gandalf was scum. Then in post 227, he flat out says that he finds gandalf to be a "pissed off newbie townie".

And then he has the nerve to try an Appeal To Emotion to get us to not lynch him. Oh, and by the way, emoticons (smilies) don't make you any less scummy or make me like you any more than I do.

I do agree that there is no way that Razor should make it to lylo like in my last game with him - but make no mistake, even though his predecessor may have come off slightly suspicious now and again, this would be a policy lynch, and as such everyone should have a chance to give their opinion first. Deadline is 3rd May, so there should be no rush to lynch IMO. (There could still be some good info from the posts about this situation).

Yes, but at some point there needs to be some distinction between when it is a policy lynch and a lynch based on his behavior. If he is scummy, we should lynch him. I think the sooner the better, but as long as he doesn't make it to lylo, I think we'll be better off. (By "sooner the better", I don't mean within game Days, as in cutting the game Day short, but I mean without letting a lot of game Days go by).

And if we do decide on him as a lynch (or anyone, really), I think that if there is still discussion going on, we should let it continue instead of just hammering.

no just saying i could carless that your yown i have better thing to do then bug a townie i have thing's to do here. and you know i told go a head a lynch me you will give the mafia a free n-k you dumb ass but you don't listen to anyone but you own voice do you ? i'm just waiting to see the look in the town when a towine die and the mafia waste another one of you because no listens to anything but a paranoided newbie who wants to prove something.

A couple of things to note here... First of all, I think Lager will remember that it was not until Day 4 when Razor was about to be lynched that he started cursing at/personally attacking people.
Secondly, he repeats his appeal to emotion.

At this point, I am almost certain that he is scum. However, I would also like to look into other options because there isn't only one scum in this game.

But let's move on. About the issue of jelly asking when mafia are allowed to talk, personally I don't think it's overly important. For future reference, I think that a question like that would be best aimed at the game mod via PM rather than as a post to avoid this kind of confusion. However, I think that it is a null tell either way. It could be a newbie townie unsure about the rules and genuinely needing clarification. Or it could be a newbie scum trying to create confusion (aka if he was scum he would know when he was allowed to chat with his partner, so if he asks about it publicly, it could make him look townie). So because of the two ways this could go, I don't think it should be made into such a big deal.
I do find jelly scummy (as per my vote), but not for this.

O Great One, please impart on us your wisdom. Go to hell, pretentious douche.

Please keep all personal attacks out of this thread. You're allowed to not like him, but I'd rather we stopped the name calling and just played the game. When you allow the game to become more than just that--a game--it becomes a shouting match, which never helps anything. I'm not calling you out only since I did notice razor cursing and calling names.

Anyway, in the interest of keeping this relatively short, compared to what it could be, I am going to stop here and pick up again in another post after a bit. Also, it's time for lunch so I'll be back later hopefully.

At this point I am happy with my vote on jelly, but I may be willing to switch to razor as deadline approaches.

[jelly jiggler]

Not a contradiction - putting Jelly at L-3 is hardly a rush to lynch.

It's not so much that I think you guys are rushing to lynch me as much as the way you said it. This is what I understood from your post:

I do agree that there is no way that Razor should make it to lylo like in my last game with him - but make no mistake, even though his predecessor may have come off slightly suspicious now and again, this would be a policy lynch, and as such everyone should have a chance to give their opinion first. Deadline is 3rd May, so there should be no rush to lynch IMO. (There could still be some good info from the posts about this situation).

Agrees that razor should be lynched early on in the game but then decides to wait because it would be a policy lynch. Then says let's not lynch yet.

Post 138 - an FOS and a vote! wow, quick stuff - no reasons given

He seems to imply that I voted in this post for some reason then says I was quick about it. Like I already said those were my almost random suspicions since this was my start of the game. This should be no more suspicious than the random votes at the start of the game except I didn't even vote.

Post 158 - The explanation of vote: I don't like it and here's why. He's picked up on FC's early blunder with the pointing fingers accusation, and I feel he's just thought, "Yep, that'll do me" and then votes FC. If he read the whole thread, FC on balance appears to be a more pro-town player than at the start, but he doesn't mention it. It looks like laziness, and that's a scumtell in my eyes as they don't need to scum hunt.
His reasoning is weak - there are far stronger scum tells out there (in the game in general not just FC).
"Gandalf is the least suspicious to me because even though hes random hes pretty consistent and his story holds up" - commented on already, but not sure what he means by "his story holds up".

There are obviously better scum tells but there was almost nothing to go on in the early game. But I'm willing to admit now that there are more suspicious people so I didn't feel the need to keep my vote on FC and yes I was lazier in the early game because because of the games I played before. Three week long days seem ridiculously over the top for me especially on the first day. All the games I've played till now usually usually lasted about a week for the entire game so I guess that would have made me lazy compared to your standards.

p161 seriously arguing that "might" is a weak word? He then goes on to use "it's most likely" which could be replaced with "it might be that" - but then admits its a weak point anyway.
Whether he likes it or not, the fact is that asking when mafia can talk to each other is a very strange request to post. I've never encountered it happening before in my previous games, or the dozen or so I've read through.

not a definite

scum tell of course, but it stands out as weird.
No reason on fos slaine either - unless you accept "gut feeling" in post 201.

What I meant to say in that post was that king really didn't have evidence towards that claim while I had some. It was more to show that his post seemed kind of irrelevant instead of saying he was wrong. Then he said that he think's that it's not a definite scum tell which of course means that he thinks its at least somewhat a scum tell. I'd be willing to consider that it might have just been a small typo but throughout the post I could see that he was a bit biased towards me which made me more defensive. The he brings up slaine for some reason. Why would I discuss slaine in a post about FC? Whatever slight suspicion I had about slaine was gone at this point.

[razorback]

nope i gave gandalf a pass so what ever happens remember v.t and mafia free n-k if you guys lynch me. but i kow you all could careless about that you just want an easy policy lynch.

[Lagerdog]

English grammar 101: When you have a definite pronoun (such as "he" or "his"), it always refers to the most recent noun (except in the case of gender differences, or where it has been explained who is being referred to). The "he" in this sentence:

especially IKD as he was in the last game with Razor with me, and he is also our IC so could perhaps give us some advice.

(I think/hope) refers to a different person than the "him" in the very next sentence:

I'm more leaning to lynch him today after hearing his latest "reason" for his behaviour.

I meant Razor.

[imkingdavid]

@jelly: Please label your quotes. You just put four quotes in your last post and only one of them was mine. However, I only knew that because I remember having just posted it. I have no idea who said the other three without searching back through the thread. It's as easy as adding ="name" inside the

tag.

Agrees that razor should be lynched early on in the game but then decides to wait because it would be a policy lynch. Then says let's not lynch yet.

Summarizes my post without giving any sort of analytical opinion in response.

I agree that razor should not make it to lylo if he continues to be as unhelpful/non-contributing as he has been so far/in other recent games. However, I put lynches that occur based on actual scum behavior higher on my list than policy lynches. I am not saying that razor has not displayed scum behavior or that I necessarily consider it a policy lynch (because I only have one other game experience with him; policy assumes that the behavior has been repeated many many times, but I have no data about that). I'm just saying that I rank policy lynches as less of a priority over lynches that occur based on someone acting scummy.

In any case, I am not trying to have the day end early/cut discussion while things are still going on. We have until deadline, so why not use all the time we can get, or until discussion stops?

nope i gave gandalf a pass so what ever happens remember v.t and mafia free n-k if you guys lynch me. but i kow you all could careless about that you just want an easy policy lynch.

Another appeal to emotion. Please stop doing that and actually contribute to the game. You should try to defend yourself instead of just giving up.

I don't like policy lynching in general, but you're not helping yourself at all. If you're a pro-town role, then please seriously reconsider your playstyle as a townsperson or no one will want you to play in a game with them. I'm being completely serious.

I meant Razor.

I assumed as much, but I just wanted to clarify since the sentence didn't make sense without it.

[jelly jiggler]

King, all of those quotes were from Lager.

[Pulindar]

[Lagerdog]

I do agree that

there is no way that Razor should make it to lylo

like in my last game with him - but make no mistake, even though his predecessor may have come off slightly suspicious now and again, this would be a policy lynch, and as such everyone should have a chance to give their opinion first. Deadline is 3rd May, so there should be no rush to lynch IMO. (There could still be some good info from the posts about this situation).

Agrees that razor should be lynched early on in the game

but then decides to wait because it would be a policy lynch. Then says let's not lynch yet.

@ Jelly - Please explain how lylo is - "early on in the game" (Surely you know what lylo means, you say you've moderated before - however if you really don't know, "lylo" means lynch or lose, and is an endgame scenario, to say it is early on just doesn't make sense). Why would you comment on this if you didn't know what it meant, especially to use as a reason to attack another player?

[FC Groningen]

Ok first:


To nopoint (post 209)
1 that is no explanation why you don't vote or are that careful acting.
4 Which is exactly my point.
5 again, whats the difference between fingerpointing ands scumhunting?
7 For that, you need an invalid case. I don't have the feeling I had one.

Noted Jelly's post in 206. ("the more razor talks, the more I want to lynch him")


To Lager (post 214)

Its a scumtell on a place I used to play. In case a host/mod sends out the roles, the guys with the most interesting roles usually post first.

About the SE's, I noticed Pulindar voting Slaine at the RVS and I believe Pulindar removed his vote until quite some time later. Maybe some kind of semi bussing attempt?


I'll also join in in the Lager-Jelly discussion. I'll respond to Lager's post 250.

-agreed, I don't see how putting people at L-3 means "pushing for a lynch"
- I don't think its very relevant to the game, but the defensive behaviour of Jelly is noted.
- I agree, from his posting I do get the idea that he likes to go for the easier targets (targets that already have votes against them or types like Razor). His vote explanation is also lacking and you'll have to ask/press him before he'd explain them.


To Kingdavid:
- So far, the reasons according to you Razor is scum are:
* His defensive behaviour (and a different posting style than he usually does)
* The appeal to emotion
Did I miss any?


To Jelly in post 252:
- What is the use of 2 "almost random" FoS at that stage of the day? Could you also explain why it would be "almost random"? You've either read the game before you posted, or not. In that case, it would still be fair to include reasoning, otherwise FoS have no use at all. In fact, since you lacked a vote, those posts could easily be seen as fluff posts.
- I don't think that would make you "lazy". Your lack of argumentation and not attempting to scumhunt (or did you so far? I haven't really noticed any from you so far) makes you look "lazy". As far as I know, you went with ongoing bandwagons since you joined the game.


Now, about Razor.

I've avoided this subject in this post so far. I prefer to sum it up in 1 area instead of referring to it each time. I think we should be pretty clear on this one. Either we are prepared to (policy) lynch him, in which case we should do it today. In case we can also get a decent case on him, (KingDavid gave some reasons) he's a fair lynch target as well. Question is, is the case strong enough yet? Also, if we choose to not lynch Razor, its still just a good idea to ignore everything he says, just to save us some headache and time.

However, lynching Razor also seems the easiest way out for scum to get to a quick and maybe rather baseless lynch. I appreciate the efforts of Lager and more or less David to leave the subject of Razor behind for a moment which also gave us this on Jelly. Overall, I think Jelly's behaviour has been more suspicious. (for reasons, check above)


So it seems a toss-up between Jelly and Razor for now. A lot will depend on Jelly's next post for me.

[razorback]

you know between i willng to bet that the scum are leaning for my lynch to cover there own tracks. just the everyone missed it some where..

now as for policy lynch give the scum a chance to kill me. i'm sure they will be foolish enough to bandwagon.

[gandalf5166]

The thing about razor was that Slaine was already acting suspicious, and then razor replaces him and just pretty much confirms it. Coincidence?

[gandalf5166]

And razor, if the scum were stupid enough to ql you they would have already done it.

[razorback]

v.t. you need to open your eyes and see what i'm trying to tell the town not to do for there own good. if you people

KILL ME

you give the a fee kill how many time do have to say.

i think the reason you want me gone gandalf is i may be right you are indeed scum. and now that i figured it out you have to kill to make sure i can't prove it later.

[Pmac]

v.t. you need to open your eyes and see what i'm trying to tell the town not to do for there own good. if you people

KILL ME

you give the a fee kill how many time do have to say.

i think the reason you want me gone gandalf is i may be right you are indeed scum. and now that i figured it out you have to kill to make sure i can't prove it later.

Ok, and prove that you're town?
I can say im town, that doens't automaticly proves i am, right?

[jelly jiggler]

Lager

@ Jelly - Please explain how lylo is - "early on in the game" (Surely you know what lylo means, you say you've moderated before - however if you really don't know, "lylo" means lynch or lose, and is an endgame scenario, to say it is early on just doesn't make sense). Why would you comment on this if you didn't know what it meant, especially to use as a reason to attack another player?

I've modded on a different forum where we didn't use any of these term however I was pretty sure of what it meant. Yeah looking back it now it was pretty bad logic however I don't get how you think I was attacking you because I totally agree that razor shouldn't make it to lylo cause I definitely don't trust him with the final vote. Besides you totally missed the important part of that post.

FC

What is the use of 2 "almost random" FoS at that stage of the day? Could you also explain why it would be "almost random"? You've either read the game before you posted, or not. In that case, it would still be fair to include reasoning, otherwise FoS have no use at all. In fact, since you lacked a vote, those posts could easily be seen as fluff posts.

Well what's the use of random voting then? You could consider that fluff posting as well. Even if I've read the entire thread it doesn't mean that there's anything good to go on. It was almost random because all I had to go on was my gut feeling which is why I didn't vote and didn't state a reason. You might as well consider it a fluff post as I pretty much said it was anyway.

FC

I don't think that would make you "lazy". Your lack of argumentation and not attempting to scumhunt (or did you so far? I haven't really noticed any from you so far) makes you look "lazy". As far as I know, you went with ongoing bandwagons since you joined the game.

I can hardly scum hunt if I waste all my time defending myself and I have plenty of arguments but apparently those are all bandwagoning. I state my own reasons and vote for who ever I want. It's not even possible for me to be bangwagon since the other guys don't talk and no one else is suspicious of Lager. The only bandwagon I see is you guys going after me and completely ignoring the inactive people. In fact I don't think I've been lazy since I do way more posting than those guys and I reply to everyone.

[imkingdavid]

To Kingdavid:
- So far, the reasons according to you Razor is scum are:
* His defensive behaviour (and a different posting style than he usually does)
* The appeal to emotion
Did I miss any?

Don't forget his lack of contribution to the game. He replaced in on April 21st. It is the 26th. He hasn't said anything whatsoever that can be seen as scum hunting or contributing to the game. Unless you consider his "case" on gandalf a contribution.

Speaking of which....

i think the reason you want me gone gandalf is i may be right you are indeed scum. and now that i figured it out you have to kill to make sure i can't prove it later.

So now you think he's scum again? You went from pretty sure he was scum, to fairly certain he wasn't scum, and now you're back to him being scum.

Also...

v.t. you need to open your eyes and see what i'm trying to tell the town not to do for there own good. if you people KILL ME you give the a fee kill how many time do have to say.

Is that the third or fourth time you've tried appealing to emotions? If you really are town and want to avoid being lynched, the best way to do so is to actually start playing the game instead of just saying "You're making a big mistake, but I don't care enough to defend myself."

Alright, I've made up my mind.

vote: razorback

(yep, he's at L-1, if I counted right)

@Pul: What's with the empty post?

@mod: vote count, please?

[Lagerdog]

I've modded on a different forum where we didn't use any of these term however I was pretty sure of what it meant. Yeah looking back it now it was pretty bad logic however I don't get how you think I was attacking you because I totally agree that razor shouldn't make it to lylo cause I definitely don't trust him with the final vote.

OK - so you basically got it wrong what lylo meant. You've now admitted this which is fair enough. (You're denying you were attacking me but I reckon the other players will see that you are incorrect there too). So my question is, what did you think lylo meant, that afforded you the idea to challenge my statement? I'll re-phrase just to make sure you understand my question. You challenged my statement that I would get rid of Razor before lylo, saying it contradicted my "be patient" statement. So what did you think lyo meant?

[Pmac]

A little bit off-topic here, but...if it means Lynch or lose, shouldn't it be Lyol not Lylo? Because that's "Lynch lose or".

[imkingdavid]

A little bit off-topic here, but...if it means Lynch or lose, shouldn't it be Lyol not Lylo? Because that's "Lynch lose or".

(off-topic: It stands for:

Ly

nch or

Lo

se; the "or" is not a part of the abbreviation)

[gandalf5166]

Pul's empty post id him telling us that he's not inactive, but he's too busy to make a real post.

[razorback]

VOTE RAZORBACK

[jelly jiggler]

OK - so you basically got it wrong what lylo meant. You've now admitted this which is fair enough. (You're denying you were attacking me but I reckon the other players will see that you are incorrect there too). So my question is, what did you think lylo meant, that afforded you the idea to challenge my statement? I'll re-phrase just to make sure you understand my question. You challenged my statement that I would get rid of Razor before lylo, saying it contradicted my "be patient" statement. So what did you think lyo meant?

You're totally misunderstanding once again. I was explaining how your vote against

me

wasn't justified according to your logic. Which you still haven't fully explained to me yet. You also didn't explain your false accusation and yet you consistently bring up points I consider to be useless and irrelevant.

[imkingdavid]

VOTE RAZORBACK

Really?
Sorry, but I am considering avoiding being in future games with you; rather than attempt to participate, you duck out with a self vote. And that is on top of your lack of participation/contribution prior to your self vote.
I see that you are in a few games at once, so if you don't have time to participate in all of them, please consider replacing out instead of getting yourself lynched.
Also, as I said before, if you are in a pro-town role and you are playing like this, you should

seriously

reconsider your play style, because it is not helpful to the town, and normally will end up in policy lynches, which effectively waste a Day (and, as you yourself said, give the scum a "free" NK), assuming you are town--it's simply an added bonus if you happen to flip scum.

Anyway, well... he hammered himself (for the newbies, "hammer" = "the lynching vote") After the hammer, nothing can stop the lynch, even if everyone unvotes.

We can still talk until the mod posts the lynch scene, at which point Night 1 will begin.

Pul's empty post id him telling us that he's not inactive, but he's too busy to make a real post.

Not inactive? Not posting since Tuesday + an empty post on the next Monday = active?
But I guess I see what you're saying; he doesn't want to be replaced, so he "responds" to the prod with a blank post, but doesn't have time to actually do anything.

Well... hopefully he'll either find time to post or else do the right the and request replacement so we don't have an inactive potential townie (although inactive scum is fine by me).

[razorback]

you didn't wan't to to hear me so now face the music.