Open 212--Hard Boiled Mafia (Game Over)

[chauchaudotcom]

1.) chauchaudotcom, your point against Mysterious Mystery Man of voting for evilsnail when the deadline has been extended is invalid. Mysterious Mystery Man voted for evilsnail when he was under the impression that deadline was going to be in about two days. The deadline was not extended until after that post.

That makes much more sense. I actually added the second sentence after I had read through all the posts so my thoughts got a bit jumbled.

I will trust Deer's reasoning until requested to do otherwise or my thoughts sufficiently override his. That being said, what are your thoughts on Deer's inactivity which lead to me coming in?

So your okay with a snail lynch purely because deer was okay with it? Or do you actually think snail is scum and are okay with their lynch? Please clarify.

I have a middle leaning town read on Deer mainly based on my meta of him from his past scum game. As for him flaking, this would be the second game in which he's done this and though it's irritating I can't attribute it to scum play so my stance on him is still leaning town. As you post more we'll see if that changes.

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him now that his role appears abondoned?

By this logic shouldn't MMM be pushing for a Conf lynch? Or maybe a Fitz lynch...or farside?

[semioldguy]

a.)

I do not like semioldguy's page 5 vote for Ythan in Post 111.. His case was basically that “Ythan worked himself into a dead end” by pursuing RayFrost and supposedly not pursuing other people. This is a ridiculous reason to vote for somebody on page 5 of a game – semioldguy himself was not pursuing

anybody

, so why should he expect Ythan to be pursuing not one player, but two players? semioldguy was expecting something from Ythan that semioldguy himself was not providing. This is what logicians call a double standard.

I don't know how many people have to misinterpret this, but this was in no way my case. My point was that he set himself up into a dead end which gives him an excuse to not do anything. I was looking for him to do something that actually allowed involvement and interaction with other players. It wasn't about him pursuing multiple people.

Not only that, but semioldguy seems to be ignoring that when a player truly believes they have found likely scum (as Ythan believed he did), they are not about to start attacking a

second

player.

And then

semioldguy never moved his vote from Ythan (NickF227). It is fittingly ironic that semioldguy helped lynched Ythan on the basis that Ythan basically stuck to one suspect, and then semioldguy turned around and did the exact same thing.

Again, you don't even have my case against him right. If you want to make a point against something I do, at least represent me properly.

b.)

I do not like that semioldguy

today

suddenly thinks it is suspicious that Mysterious Mystery Man's Post 105 suggested that he knew BioHazard was town, but semioldguy somehow did not notice this until Day Two when farside22 made that

exact same point

in Post 135 and BioHazard repeated that point in Post 145.

As previously mentioned several times. I didn't notice it. If you think not noticing something is scummy, I can't refute that, but I'd like to know why you think it is scummy.

c.)

I don't like his suggestion that McGriddle was scummy when McGriddle replaced in and observed that ksun was obviously not tactically lurking because ksun was replaced for not posting. Players defend their predecessors all the time. This same comment also applies to chauchaudotcom.

I never said McGriddle was scummy or that defending a predecessor is scummy. I was looking for his reasons for doing something to determine motivation.

d.)

A good deal of your posts are just slightly disagreeing with people on theoretical reasons, whilst not really taking stands on people. These posts just make you look like you are a “reasonable player,” while you are not doing anything to actively help the town.

Could you provide some examples?

e.)

I have found it very strange how people have been attacking chauchaudotcom for asking so many questions without giving opinions when it feels to me like semioldguy has been doing that exact same thing. The only difference is that semioldguy also tosses in his theoretical disagreements (as noted above).

...examples?

f.)

I really do not like Post 350, which is why I FoS'd semioldguy in my very next post of the game.

What don't you like? Does not liking something equate with scummy to you? There are lots of things I don't like in games, but that doesn't mean they are scummy.

[Pittbunny]

So your okay with a snail lynch purely because deer was okay with it? Or do you actually think snail is scum and are okay with their lynch? Please clarify.

I've noticed trends that could be attributed to scumminess regarding snail, which is why I didn't immediately pull out Deer's vote. However, I haven't done a very good read (three exams today, when they're over I'll at least have breathing room to read for a couple hours), so I'm liable to switch if someone succinctly provides a reason for me to unvote. Is that enough clarification?

[havingfitz]

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him

now that his role appears abondoned?

By this logic shouldn't MMM be pushing for a Conf lynch? Or maybe a Fitz lynch...or farside?

Do the people you mention fall under the same logic? Have any of us bailed on the game?

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@ havingfitz: If I was scum, why would I want to lynch an inactive player?

I'm ISOing CC.com and semioldguy. Results later.

[Confucius]

I don't know how many people have to misinterpret this, but this was in no way my case. My point was that he set himself up into a dead end which gives him an excuse to not do anything. I was looking for him to do something that actually allowed involvement and interaction with other players. It wasn't about him pursuing multiple people.

And I do not know how you keep missing this simple point:

The

effect

of your reasoning was that unless Ythan started pursuing a new suspect with different reasoning, you were going to vote for him because he had put himself in a “dead end.”

Here are the problems with your vote:

1.)

It was page 5 of the game. Ythan already believed he had found scum. He was voting for that scum, and then the mod told him he is not allowed to bring up his reasoning. Ythan had no reason to immediately unvote, nor did he have a duty to start attacking some other player.

2.)

Ythan even asked you point blank – who did

you

suggest that Ythan look at if not RayFrost (Ythan's suspect). You did not give an answer. In fact, you never claimed that you really had suspects of your own. Instead, you simply voted for Ythan.

3.)

It is ridiculously unlikely that Ythan purposefully wanted to keep himself in a position where could simply say “well, I'm not going to comment on anything else because I know who a scum is.”

Of course, Ythan

might

have done that. We don't know. At the very least, you should have seen

if

Ythan was going to try such a strategy, rather than voting for him

just in case

he tried to use that strategy. Ythan even said in-thread that he was looking at other people, but that he did not really have any other suspects by pages 5/6 of the game.

Seeing as

you

did not have any suspects besides Ythan by page 5/6 of the game, it is hard to see how you can fault Ythan for his vote on RayFrost.

4.)

After you voted for Ythan, I feel that you did not really go after other players. I think you were just riding out your vote until deadline.

And here is the kicker: even after Ythan was replaced – in other words, when his replacement obviously could not use the “well, I have reasoning I can't share so I'm not going to scumhunt” –

you kept your vote on Ythan.

~

It is scummy that you missed Mysterious Mystery Man assuming BioHazard was town precisely because you have gone out of your way this game to mention how you have read the game, and you have also asked players at least twice if they have read

your

posts.

As I said before, I am getting the feeling that you do not actually suspect Mysterious Mystery Man, but you are just saying that you do. You are trying to say the case on him is bad, but that you suspect him for "some other reason" that you just noticed on Day Two despite two other players making that exact point on Day One.

For a player who gives the impression of being on top of the game and logical, I think this is the beginning of the chinks in your armor.

~

As for examples: No. I want players to read through your posts, and they can agree or they can disagree about my impressions of you. As I have said before to Mysterious Mystery Man, it is not my job to convince

you

that you are scum.

[semioldguy]

Here are the problems with your vote:

1.)

It was page 5 of the game. Ythan already believed he had found scum. He was voting for that scum, and then the mod told him he is not allowed to bring up his reasoning. Ythan had no reason to immediately unvote, nor did he have a duty to start attacking some other player.

Solution for Ythan: Keep attacking the same player from different angles until you have something from this game which can therefore be discussed. If he thinks he found scum, then sitting in the corner and not further pursing that player or anyone else doesn't do any good.

he could have done this. He didn't. He went down the exact same path again.

2.)

Ythan even asked you point blank – who did

you

suggest that Ythan look at if not RayFrost (Ythan's suspect). You did not give an answer. In fact, you never claimed that you really had suspects of your own. Instead, you simply voted for Ythan.

He could have gone after whoever he wanted, as long as it was for reasons that didn't break the site's rules.

3.)

It is ridiculously unlikely that Ythan purposefully wanted to keep himself in a position where could simply say “well, I'm not going to comment on anything else because I know who a scum is.”

Of course, Ythan

might

have done that. We don't know. At the very least, you should have seen

if

Ythan was going to try such a strategy, rather than voting for him

just in case

he tried to use that strategy. Ythan even said in-thread that he was looking at other people, but that he did not really have any other suspects by pages 5/6 of the game.

Seeing as

you

did not have any suspects besides Ythan by page 5/6 of the game, it is hard to see how you can fault Ythan for his vote on RayFrost.

After being told by the mod that the subject could not be discussed, his next couple posts continued on the same case, which he knew couldn't be discussed. He had already employed the strategy of sitting in the corner by refusing to drop the subject which he was not allowed to talk about. By making those posts he was avoiding making comments on anything else.

4.)

After you voted for Ythan, I feel that you did not really go after other players. I think you were just riding out your vote until deadline.

And here is the kicker: even after Ythan was replaced – in other words, when his replacement obviously could not use the “well, I have reasoning I can't share so I'm not going to scumhunt” –

you kept your vote on Ythan.

NickF227 was scummy in his own right for the time he had replaced in. I was looking at another player. McGriddle was the other suspect of mine. I questioned him. He danced around my questions and was uncooperative.

~

It is scummy that you missed Mysterious Mystery Man assuming BioHazard was town precisely because you have gone out of your way this game to mention how you have read the game, and you have also asked players at least twice if they have read

your

posts.

There is a difference between missing something, and making a false accusation on someone saying that they have done something that they haven't done. If they want to say that I've done something, they should be able to back it up by pointing to me actually having done what they claim I did.

As I said before, I am getting the feeling that you do not actually suspect Mysterious Mystery Man, but you are just saying that you do. You are trying to say the case on him is bad, but that you suspect him for "some other reason" that you just noticed on Day Two despite two other players making that exact point on Day One.

I don't heavily suspect him. I can't help having missed it. This still doesn't explain why my missing it is scummy.

For a player who gives the impression of being on top of the game and logical, I think this is the beginning of the chinks in your armor.

There is a difference between missing something and misrepresenting something, either of which could be intentional or unintentional. I have missed something and you are likening it to misrepresenting something. They are not the same thing.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.21:

evilsnail (4): farside22, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man, Pittbunny

chauchaudotcom (1): semioldguy
Mysterious Mystery Man (1): havingfitz
semioldguy (1): Confucius

Not Voting (2): chauchaudotcom, evilsnail

[Confucius]

Short response to semioldguy:

The mod did not tell Ythan to stop discussing the subject until Post 92. Ythan then asked the mod a question about how much he could reference his reasoning in Post 93. Ythan was then

asked a question

about his reasoning by chauchaudotcom which he responded to in Post 98. He was then

asked another question

which he responded to in Post 100.

Then you voted for him Post 111.

Ythan did not belabor the subject

at all

; he was asked questions about his reasoning, which he then responded to. Claiming he was "sitting doing nothing" is simply untrue. Every time he talked about his reasoning after the mod requested he stop, it was only in response to questions / accusations.

~

It is scummy that you missed the "assuming BioHazard was town" comment because if you find it scummy on Day Two, you should have found it scummy on Day One. This means that for every time you read the game, you had three opportunities to catch that same point: Mysterious Mystery Man's post which contained the comment, farside22 pointing it out, and then BioHazard's also pointing it out.

Here's the deal: I think you

did

notice it on Day One, but you did not mention it until Day Two. Had you pushed it on Day One, you might have started a wagon on who I believe is your partner. When you came around to mentioning it on Day Two, you only did so with the additional commentary that essentially boils to "I completely disagree with everything Confucius has to say is scummy about Mysterious Mystery Man." In other words, the

one time

you claimed to be suspicious of Mysterious Mystery Man, you did so in the same breath of trying to discredit the reasoning against Mysterious Mystery Man -- i.e., your newfound suspicion is not likely to result with a wagon on your partner.

[havingfitz]

3.)

havingfitz, do you

really

think Mysterious Mystery Man's vote on evilsnail today is a remnant of the fact that evilsnail claimed to be suspicious of Mysterious Mystery Man on Day One? I feel like you might trying to feed some fuel to the fire with that comment.

I did not say MMM’s evil vote and evil’s suspicions towards MMM were related. MMM never really gave much of a reason for his evil vote and when he did, vote patterns and bandwagoning...I disputed those being valid reasons.

When did stating the ‘facts’ become a bad thing?

When did fueling suspicions towards someone, with 'facts', become a bad thing?

[semioldguy]

@Fortune-cookie-sayeing-man
I'll have to check that in the morning, but I don't recall it having been his responses to everything that made him keep posting the same thing over again. If he did... well he alwyas has an option to post other things too.

You...like... weren't even here when that happened. Your perspective in that wouldn't even be the same as mine.

I don't even really like this game. I joined because I was killed off in several other games and there weren't any particularly exciting games to join in any of the queues so this seemed like the best setup of the available games like the lesser of evils to join at the time. But that's just how I felt about Ythan at the time. if you want to fault me for that... then I guess that's cool, but you don't seem to understand very well where I am coming from when I am made that case.

He coul hav contributed and asked questions that were about this game to me or Rayfrost or anyone,... but he didn't. He had the chance to... but he didn't and he refused to. Not like saying"hey I refuse to do this" but like the refuse to do this by just choosing not to do anything else when he clearly could have.

I was attacking him for reasons in this game and other people who have only one suspect have there suspect for things in this game... but not him. He had his suspect because of stuff happening in other games... like it even mattered to begin with.

Who do you think you are anyway!!?

We have a super nice mod who force replaced him instead of just offing the player slot... we got some extra information not just from that player slot but the day got to continue and everyone else got to keep weighing in on things... and then today we get a replacement finally and an extension on the deadline.

How lousy would it have been if the day ended now like it was originally going to? We'd have lynched evilsnail with no claim and no real info on that player slot's thoughts or what was going on there.

That's why I am going after chauchaudotcom. She is here and scummy and able to say things that we can look at. evilsnail wasn't like that and was like a consolation lynch which even if it hits scum wouldn't really tell us anything. I am fighting for more information and people who offer the game less information are bad.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

Reading CC.com in ISO, and I found a few problems. She starts day 2 by voting havingfitz, since he's mindgamer's replacement, but then questions semioldguy. It starts with a casual 'what are you thinking', but then most of her posts are responding to his. I also don't like her disinterest in havingfitz's weak vote on her, and I'm wondering about a scum team. Given the fact that they either are or were voting for each other, they don't really seem to be questioning one another. Looks like distancing.

@ CC.com: What made semioldguy more scummy than havingfitz/mindgamer?

@ havingfitz: Is your case on CC.com still only based on her hammer?

An ISO of semioldguy is next.

[Confucius]

semioldguy, whether or not you enjoy this game has no bearing on whether you or not you are scum. Also, any case I make on anybody is almost necessarily going to have to incorporate references to their play from Day One, despite the fact that I “wasn't even there.” Finally, the fact that you are voting for chauchaudotcom over evilsnail does not make you town, as you seem to be trying to imply.

Who do you think you are anyway!!?

This has fake indignation written all over it.

[semioldguy]

I think it had more of a 'semioldguy is under the influence of copious amounts of alcohol' written all over it.

[Pittbunny]

I think it had more of a 'semioldguy is under the influence of copious amounts of alcohol' written all over it.

Unvote; Vote:Semioldguy

To pull off a near-lynch on snail and because that had appeal to emotion/emotional involvement written all over it. The two together want me to push a double-wagon, and see who cracks first.

I'd also note that Mafia and Alcohol don't mix well unless it's Drunken Mafia. =P

[semioldguy]

I am going to take your accusation of emotional involvement as a compliment.

[havingfitz]

Reading CC.com in ISO, and I found a few problems. She starts day 2 by voting havingfitz, since he's mindgamer's replacement, but then questions semioldguy. It starts with a casual 'what are you thinking', but then most of her posts are responding to his. I also don't like her disinterest in havingfitz's weak vote on her, and I'm wondering about a scum team. Given the fact that they either are or were voting for each other, they don't really seem to be questioning one another. Looks like distancing.
------
@ havingfitz: Is your case on CC.com still only based on her hammer?

Which case is that? You do realize my vote is on you? As for my prior vote on chau...she hasn't done anything to allieve my suspicions...she has just been passed by you.

Speaking of distancing, why was it you went from a town read on chau to suspecting her? And so now I'm in a scum team with evil AND chau? Impressive work.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

Reading CC.com in ISO, and I found a few problems. She starts day 2 by voting havingfitz, since he's mindgamer's replacement, but then questions semioldguy. It starts with a casual 'what are you thinking', but then most of her posts are responding to his. I also don't like her disinterest in havingfitz's weak vote on her, and I'm wondering about a scum team. Given the fact that they either are or were voting for each other, they don't really seem to be questioning one another. Looks like distancing.
------
@ havingfitz: Is your case on CC.com still only based on her hammer?

Which case is that? You do realize my vote is on you? As for my prior vote on chau...she hasn't done anything to allieve my suspicions...she has just been passed by you.

Speaking of distancing, why was it you went from a town read on chau to suspecting her? And so now I'm in a scum team with evil AND chau? Impressive work.

It is?

*headbang*

--------------------------------------

I'm currently undecided on CC.com, it will depend on my read of semioldguy. If he looks scummy, CC.com will look better, and vice versa. As it stands now, I see no reason to exclude CC.com from suspicion. I don't like how she switched from mindgamer to semioldguy so suddenly.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.22:

evilsnail (3): farside22, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man
semioldguy (2): Confucius, Pittbunny
chauchaudotcom (1): semioldguy
Mysterious Mystery Man (1): havingfitz

Not Voting (2): chauchaudotcom, evilsnail

Prodding farside22.
Seeking replacement for hitogoroshi.

[hitogoroshi]

Ah shi--

Yeah I've been totally out of it here. I can step up to the plate if you have trouble finding a replacement but seeing as I've already needed three prods (I typically need zero) I'm not really at a level where I'm 'in' this game and it's selfish of me to demand I stay in when I'm not doing anything while in.

Sorry about flaking here. It's not something I plan on making a habit of; truth be told, I'm not sure how much I'm feeling the whole mafia thing right now.

Confirming the necessity of replacement

[farside22]

confirming my prod. I finally caught up at work that I will have something of substance later today.

[farside22]

havingfitz vote and reasoning for vote on chau is terrible. Most people look to lynch for information. Hammering on someone to get a lynch isn't scummy
post 401
Please explain how this should be taken then if not what I stated

Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me, but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned, and I am looking at you as my third suspect mostly for reasons brought up against you.

I would not vote someone I did not have suspicions on to avoid a no lynch. I did not have suspicions D1 towards Nick

I think this is because you weren't even around for day 1 to state who you were suspicious of.
Havingfits: Do you believe MMM is scum?

Also, that meta read is worthless, as unless you can say that Bio Hazard had good reason for believing me to be scum, my vote on him was valid.

Why is it worthless?
post 396 again you had suspicion for no one day 1 so that point is not valid for me.
Semi: Why do you feel the need to withhold your vote? Why do you suspect chau and evil?
confucius post 406 I agree with this but mostly because he kept arguing the wording being used on what he said instead of just saying here is what I meant.

Did Mysterious Mystery Man only become a suspect for you on Day Two? Exactly when did you find him scummy? If you found him scummy on Day One, why didn't you mention it or pursue it?

Yes, on day two. When I made that post.

Did you dodge the reset of these questions for any reason?

Have you considered looking and analyzing games in which he is town? Or have you already done this? If/After you have done this, how does your read change or stay the same. When this is done I am more willing to accept a meta argument.

seriously? He makes a point and you want him to do more research to find town play because it's not good enough
FOS: SEMI

havingfits: is the only reason your suspicious of chau do to the hammer?

post 414 good to know which means for him it's a null tell then.
post 416 what the (bleep) are you on. Your voting for chau so if you felt that strongly you should be voting for MMM
post 417 UGH!!! Take the damn olive brance you stupid (blank, blank, blank) I swear your attitude is just anti-town
Semi: post 420 why did you vote for chauch at that point?

post 429
I had a outline case on evil if you read me in iso that has not changed at all and MMM still is someone I consider scummy
You is based a bit on mindgamer but more on you and how you are pointing the finger at someone when you never stated a suspicion in the first place

12 days gives me more of a townie feel than scum

yes because only a town player flakes and disappears
It's null at best
post 434 good post.
*adds to re - look at semi in iso.*
Pitt: I didn't see much on me. I feel so left out.

As previously mentioned several times. I didn't notice it. If you think not noticing something is scummy, I can't refute that, but I'd like to know why you think it is scummy.

personally I have an issue with it because you stated you had something other then what others felt were MMM's scumminess. Which means you were not reading day 1 and I find those not reading scummy

And my scum list consist of semiold, havingfitz, MMM and evil.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

@ farside22: Unless he can show how my vote on BH wasn't valid, I didn't OMGUS, and his argument doesn't make sense.

Regarding semioldguy...

The ISO read troubles me.

evilsnail is my leading suspect currently, but I'd really like to see some more posts from him first. Mysterious Mystery Man is slightly suspicious to me, but not for many of the reasons others have put forward as mentioned, and I am looking at you as my third suspect mostly for reasons brought up against you.

A lot must have changed between then and your vote for CC.com, what made her scummier than both myself and evilsnail? Also, how did I become your #2 suspect?

The reason (singular) I found Mysterious Mystery Man to be slightly suspicious was because of his post 105.

So, your case on me was this single post?

@ Bio Hazard: It is scummy because it is distracting to me. The defence of 'scum wouldn't do that in RVS' is WIFOM. Making a serious vote this quickly will likely cause either one of two things: I am lynched, or you are lynched. Either way, it's not a smart move

for town

, the exception being of course, if I am scum. Do you really think I'm scum based on this paltry evidence?

The only reason I was your number two suspect was because I didn't directly call BH scum?

But apart from your ISO #20, you never bring up this point against me. If anything, you are defending me. Instead, you question and vote ccdotcom. You said you dropped evilsnail because he wasn't around to respond, but why did you drop your case on me?

I'll look more closely, but I haven't seen anything interesting in the debates between CC.com and SOG. Certainly nothing that would cause one to suspect the other so strongly. But SOG has clearly been switching his suspicions.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.23:

evilsnail (3): farside22, hitogoroshi, Mysterious Mystery Man
semioldguy (2): Confucius, Pittbunny
chauchaudotcom (1): semioldguy
Mysterious Mystery Man (1): havingfitz

Not Voting (2): chauchaudotcom, evilsnail

Deadline in 5 days.

[Confucius]

Still here. Still want semioldguy lynched.

I'll have to check that in the morning, but I don't recall it having been his responses to everything that made him keep posting the same thing over again. If he did... well he alwyas has an option to post other things too.

Please do this soon.