Mini 954 ~ Mafia at the 11th Hour (Game Over!)

[semioldguy]

Vote: Percy

[Porkens]

oh yeah?

[semioldguy]

Yeah.

[Porkens]

huh.

unvote

?

[Vi]

Vote Count XVII:

- For the semi-old among us

semioldguy (L-3) ~

d3x, Jahudo, Porkens,

Debonair Danny DiPietro, d3x, dramonic

Pomegranate (L-5) ~ Cobalt
Jahudo (L-5) ~ VP Baltar
VP Baltar (L-5) ~ Jahudo
Percy (L-5) ~ semioldguy

Minimum (L-6)

Not Voting:

Debonair Danny DiPietro, dramonic,

Percy, Pomegranate,

semioldguy, VP Baltar, d3x,

Porkens

Battery Power:

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(84%)

[VP Baltar]

lol, Jahudo OMGUS' me before I've even made a proper case? Scum found. People need to get on this wagon immediately.

I had no intention of voting VP, and I wasn't trying to start a wagon by calling out Player X, because I wasn't arguing for a specific alternative. All you can say is that I was waiting for an opportunity to happen, and you have to argue that is something I would logically do as scum that late in the day when I was previously digging myself further into the Nikanor wagon by questioning him and helping others vote him.

Uh, yes that's exactly my point. You didn't care what the alternative really was, just that it would distract from the Nikanor wagon close to the deadline. Let us not forget:

If the deadline occurs before anyone reaches a majority vote, the game moves to Night and No Lynch occurs. Some mods lessen the requirements to lynch at deadline. I do not. A lynch will always require a full majority of the players' consent.

You being coy about distracting from the Nik lynch a day or so before the deadline is quite obvious to me even if you think you were being careful about it.

You put the ownership of your Tony vote on DDD here.

Except the part where I had voted Tony seriously waaaay earlier in the day. It's not like that suspicion came out of nowhere. Meanwhile, you spent a lot of the day yesterday talking about Seraphim and Tony but never switched your vote once. Let's talk about ownership there if you really want.

You also place your dramonic suspicion over Nikanor indirectly. If you thought Nikanor was scummier, dramonic's involvement on his wagon shouldn't make you switch votes unless it was to dramonic. But you vote Tony. I don't understand that logic.

I don't understand your logic, actually. I never said that I thought dram was scummier, just that his play was giving me second thoughts of the wagon on Day 1. His vote had been on that same wagon since the RVS, which I questioned him over. So, I fail to see how in your mind that means that he is where I should have been voting.

Explain why you were bailing Nikanor out here:

Nice rhetoric there scumbag.

Nik isn't exactly present either. Perhaps if he was here posting I'd feel better about him, but lurking (after calling lurking a scumtell) is lynch worthy atm.

Sounds like if Nik posted more, you'd move on to dramonic or a lurker.

First, you win the award for most out of context quote ever. For those not looking back for this, I was actually explaining to DDD why I wasn't leaving the Nikanor wagon. Here is the actual exchange:

*We cannot allow players to just coast through the game without even trying; as we both know allowing such behavior is a recipe for disaster.

*I agree and offing dram today isn't really a bad choice, but Nik isn't exactly present either. Perhaps if he was here posting I'd feel better about him, but lurking (after calling lurking a scumtell) is lynch worthy atm.

So, as you can see I was clearly explaining to DDD why my vote was just fine right where it was on Nik.

Second, I was partially baiting Nik to see if he would post shortly after that as a way to get "town cred" from me. After lurking so much, if he had posted within a few hours of that post I would have strongly felt him scum even more than I already did. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[semioldguy]

@jahudo
Now... this coming from a slight-extremely inebriated semioldguy (with Microsoft Word Spell Check... extremely and inebriated both had to be corrected... twice) Why is VP Baltar a better vote than a vote for me? There is a good reason for asking this and since I know I'll forget in the morning I'll just come out with it now: how convicted in your vote are you?

I mean... what happened between your vote for me and your vote for him which made you want to change your vote?

76.3% chance I'll still be interested in the morning to hear an answer to that.

Plus 24.7%.

[dramonic]

for a total of 101%

[VP Baltar]

Yo, dram,

Jahudo is 101% Awesome wagon redux. Bring the D crew over to my badass party.

Sincerely,

VP Baltar

[Jahudo]

@semioldguy: I had already said this.

My top suspects are 1) Semi, little gap to 2) VP then a medium sized gap to 3) Pom, then a big gap to 4) Percy and then its a huge gap to everyone else.

What changed was that VPB tried to use scumtells he is guilty of, which makes me think he's not speaking honestly.

I agree with him, however, that we don't need to speedwagon you with little discussion.

-------------------------

VPB's response doesn't change my opinion of him.

You being coy about distracting from the Nik lynch a day or so before the deadline is quite obvious to me even if you think you were being careful about it.

Where was it obvious? The part where you asked me why the Nik wagon was superior to dramonic, and I replied by saying dramonic looked town? (214) Or the part where I said I wouldn't switch to Tony unless he posted more things that were scummy? (also 214) Or the part where I said I didn't see the case on VP Baltar and wasn't going to vote for him based on it? (230)

It's true that I might've switched to a Tony wagon, provided he not replace out and instead kept posting scummy stuff. Same with Seraphim. I was feeling good about a Nik lynch but that doesn't mean we couldn't have lynched another scum in that time frame. Look at Mafia Reverberation's day 1 deadline. Alot of movement in the final few hours and we managed to lynch a scum (Rhinox) while letting another slip out of L-1 (Orbots).

Except the part where I had voted Tony seriously waaaay earlier in the day. It's not like that suspicion came out of nowhere.

That's true, but you also decreased your interest the Tony wagon by saying dramonic might have been trying to opportunistically hop on it. After you unvoted, you kept asking Tony to contribute more (160, 163, 188) and vote him 3 days before deadline when in that timeframe Tony had said nothing new. You were voting because of DDD, and you were asking others to join your wagon.

Meanwhile, you spent a lot of the day yesterday talking about Seraphim and Tony but never switched your vote once. Let's talk about ownership there if you really want.

And you're point being? I said I wasn't going to vote Seraphim or Tony unless they did something to look scummier than Nikanor.

I don't understand your logic, actually. I never said that I thought dram was scummier, just that his play was giving me second thoughts of the wagon on Day 1. His vote had been on that same wagon since the RVS, which I questioned him over. So, I fail to see how in your mind that means that he is where I should have been voting.

It's fine if dramonic gave you a doubt, but it looked more like you were unvoting in part because of your suspicion on him. And I would think a Nikanor suspicion outweighs a dramonic suspicion from your perspective.

What was every and all reasons for you unvoting Nikanor and voting Tony?

Nice rhetoric there scumbag.

Huh?

First, you win the award for most out of context quote ever. For those not looking back for this, I was actually explaining to DDD why I wasn't leaving the Nikanor wagon.

I win an award? Cue victory fanfare!

So, as you can see I was clearly explaining to DDD why my vote was just fine right where it was on Nik.

True, but you also let on that your vote was mostly, if not entirely, based on his activity level. If he posted more, you WOULD feel better. Not might, would. That's a short step to orchestrating a lurker lynch of dramonic, who you were painting as questionable for a while.

Second, I was partially baiting Nik to see if he would post shortly after that as a way to get "town cred" from me. After lurking so much, if he had posted within a few hours of that post I would have strongly felt him scum even more than I already did. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Sorta like a gambit?

I think we might be deadlocked on a couple of points: me not believing you would have still called Nik scum if he posted more, and you not believing I wouldn't have helped push an alternative wagon if one had started to peak out.

[semioldguy]

Lol... I'm good at math.

[dramonic]

You were drunk, let's leave it at that.

Or he was playing Donkey Kong Country. ~Vi

@VP: Jahudo doesn't sound like a fun wagon to hang into.

[VP Baltar]

You were drunk, let's leave it at that.
@VP: Jahudo doesn't sound like a fun wagon to hang into.

Do explain.

Full reply to 'hudo probably coming tonight when I have some time.

[dramonic]

Full reply to 'hudo probably coming tonight when I have some time.

Whut?
I have a strong gut read on Jahudo, may be due to what he posted, I'd need to check. Meanwhile, explain the quote, I've no clue what it's refering to.

[d3x]

Cobalt. What gives? Your word count is lower than my post count.

[Cobalt]

Cobalt. What gives? Your word count is lower than my post count.

trying to pick a wagon to jump on

[semioldguy]

You're in luck! We have some very appetizing wagon options available today. Perhaps I could interest you in one of the premium selections, a very fine and brand new Percy-wagon. It's the best wagon on the market right now. I can put you in this wagon today for the low down-payment of a single vote. Whaddya say?

[Pomegranate]

You were drunk, let's leave it at that.
@VP: Jahudo doesn't sound like a fun wagon to hang into.

Do explain.

Full reply to 'hudo probably coming tonight when I have some time.

You were drunk, let's leave it at that.
@VP: Jahudo doesn't sound like a fun wagon to hang into.

Do explain.

Full reply to 'hudo probably coming tonight when I have some time.

I see some of your points against him, but I have a town-ish read on him.

Also, looking at your case, I find something skewed, though it's possible that I'm seeing it incorrectly: You (VP) bated Nik to see if he would try to get some town cred from you, but you mind that he mentioned other things?

Also, looking at your case and Jahudo's response, I have to stick with him. It makes more sense to me I think.

But I hate post with a million quotes, oh well.

I'll look at SOG tonight, and Percy since that's who SOG is going after.

[Vi]

Vote Count XVIII:

- Mortal combat, spooniness, and a victory fanfare

semioldguy (L-3) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, d3x, dramonic

Pomegranate (L-5) ~ Cobalt
Jahudo (L-5) ~ VP Baltar
VP Baltar (L-5) ~ Jahudo
Percy (L-5) ~ semioldguy

Minimum (L-6)

Not Voting:

Percy, Pomegranate, Porkens

Battery Power:

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(75%)

[VP Baltar]

Whut?
I have a strong gut read on Jahudo, may be due to what he posted, I'd need to check. Meanwhile, explain the quote, I've no clue what it's refering to

I think you should definitely check your read on him because Jahudo is good at looking townish on the surface, but his motivation seems off to me in key places.

The quote was me just saying that I'd put a reply wall up to Jahudo tonight. Unfortunately, we had a 9-hour, island-wide power outage today so I'm going to postpone it in lieu of now being able to actually finish some of my work.

You're in luck! We have some very appetizing wagon options available today. Perhaps I could interest you in one of the premium selections, a very fine and brand new Percy-wagon. It's the best wagon on the market right now. I can put you in this wagon today for the low down-payment of a single vote. Whaddya say?

Why is this a good wagon again?

You (VP) bated Nik to see if he would try to get some town cred from you, but you mind that he mentioned other things?

I don't think I understand this correctly. Can you explain it differently for me?

Also, looking at your case and Jahudo's response, I have to stick with him. It makes more sense to me I think.

I haven't even really made my case proper yet. Just pointed out some of the brief high points.

I'd like to hear more from Cobalt, DDD and Percy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'd like to hear more from Cobalt, DDD and Percy.

I was hoping to get that Jahudo response tonight.

Maybe I should just start over since I was so off base on D1 and just use D2 to try and get some momentum back in the game since I feel so out of touch. I think I'll do that, but tomorrow it'll be since it's late.

[VP Baltar]

I was hoping to get that Jahudo response tonight.

Sorry, that power outage really f-ed with my whole day in a week that I was already too short of time in. Oh well. Perhaps today will be better. I also started on my Jahudo case a few days ago, but it's dormant in my notes atm. Hopefully I can finish that before the weekend so people will actually start to listen to me.

[Jahudo]

Check out these two posts from Nikanor. The first happened early in the day, and the second was one of his final posts.

DDD is pushing the Tony wagon pretty hard, but I don't see any reason for why he's doing it. Possible distancing?

I don't get why Tony thinks that DDD is scum and vice-versa. DDD, could you summarize the reasons for why Tony is scum?

Part of me thinks he was fence-sitting to see if one of them became a viable lynch. In that instance both could be town.

But if he wanted to plant a seed that they were both scum distancing from each other, it might make more sense for one of them to actually be scum. That way if Nik's buddy was the one getting wagoned, he had a platform to bus. And if the townie was the first one lynched, the point of distancing was no longer valid.

I think this is another indication that semioldguy (Tony) could be scum, because otherwise I don't see the point of distancing speculation that early.

[VP Baltar]

VPB's response doesn't change my opinion of him.

Somehow I'm not surprised.

Where was it obvious? The part where you asked me why the Nik wagon was superior to dramonic, and I replied by saying dramonic looked town? (214) Or the part where I said I wouldn't switch to Tony unless he posted more things that were scummy? (also 214) Or the part where I said I didn't see the case on VP Baltar and wasn't going to vote for him based on it? (230)

Let's look at what you said about Tony directly before that:

Side note: I feel that Tony has been lurking and acting scummy when he's actually posted, so I'd vote him before Seraphim. And Nik wagon is still good.

Which I read as you slowly creeping your way toward the Tony wagon. Then when you add your bit about wanting to see Tony post before you think about switching I saw a continuation of that hesitency. With us moving toward deadline at that point and you confessing that multiple bandwagons is a good thing, I just fail to see how you as town would have so much hesitency.

Same with your Post 230 when you say:

I don't see the case on VP yet

, but I'm interested to see how VP responds and if Nik elaborates.

First, I have no idea what you saw in Nik's case that even made you interested because it was complete crap. Second, the bolded implies that you could be swayed that way (presumably based on my response) just over a day from deadline. You were also touching on Seraphim all day without serious action (voting). You were looking for deadline shennanigans to start up if you ask me.

It's true that I might've switched to a Tony wagon, provided he not replace out and instead kept posting scummy stuff. Same with Seraphim. I was feeling good about a Nik lynch but that doesn't mean we couldn't have lynched another scum in that time frame. Look at Mafia Reverberation's day 1 deadline. Alot of movement in the final few hours and we managed to lynch a scum (Rhinox) while letting another slip out of L-1 (Orbots).

Objection!

*cue Vi-cool Ace Attorney graphics*

Mafia Reverberation is not relatable in anyway to the circumstances in this game because the lynching threshold was only four votes and there were multiple double voters in play and we could lynch multiple people in a day. I don't see how you are even drawing a comparison between that and a seven vote straight lynch.

That's true, but you also decreased your interest the Tony wagon by saying dramonic might have been trying to opportunistically hop on it.

Don't see how these are related again. I can actually be suspicious of multiple people at the same time, even if they are attacking each other.

After you unvoted, you kept asking Tony to contribute more (160, 163, 188) and vote him 3 days before deadline when in that timeframe Tony had said nothing new. You were voting because of DDD, and you were asking others to join your wagon.

The point was to prod Tony toward contributing SOMETHING. I would argue that DDD and I voting for him was what actually got him to replace out, which actually made me think him more town. That was my reason for voting, not simply DDD. Obviously, I can't make a statement like that in thread or the vote becomes meaningless. This is, of course, is best view opposite of your talk without voting, which did nothing.

Meanwhile, you spent a lot of the day yesterday talking about Seraphim and Tony but never switched your vote once. Let's talk about ownership there if you really want.

And you're point being? I said I wasn't going to vote Seraphim or Tony unless they did something to look scummier than Nikanor.

Well, they were all doing the same thing at that point, which was nothing. The point is that you were being a wimp about it and wouldn't move your vote. It just reads as too safe to me. The vibe I kept getting yesterday was that if enough momentum moved away from Nik you'd be there in a flash, but you didn't want the responsibility of the one starting it, which of course doesn't look so great to me in light of the flip.

What was every and all reasons for you unvoting Nikanor and voting Tony?

Number one reason was to try pressuring Tony into posting and actually have some discussion instead of just waiting out the deadline. The game was really stagnating for me because of the lurking trio of Tony-Nik-Seraphim. As I said in my reply to you after I voted, I felt it was time we seriously started to figure out which of that trio. Frankly, I'm glad that I made a final attack on Tony because it cleared things up for me. Hell, I even ended up having to abandon the charade and state my clear intentions in post 217 because I wanted some kind of progress to be made before deadline:

Alright, I'm giving one more day to our lurkers to come in here and give their reads/make a case why they shouldn't be lynched. If I still get nothing, then I'm coming back to Nik because that's the most viable wagon right now. I'm so annoyed at this game right now it's not even funny.

True, but you also let on that your vote was mostly, if not entirely, based on his activity level. If he posted more, you WOULD feel better. Not might, would. That's a short step to orchestrating a lurker lynch of dramonic, who you were painting as questionable for a while.

No. Keep reaching though. All people have to do is look at the quotes in context to see the meaning. It's quite clear my Nik vote wasn't moving to dram.

Sorta like a gambit?

No, not really. But this is part of how I play the game. In my experience, making direct demands of people doesn't always get a desired result. Some people think that a town player should always be upfront with their intentions and be as transparent as possible, but I don't think that approach always yeilds the best results. There are times when town needs to play things close to their chest for the greater good.

I view a gambit as much more elaborate than simply keeping intentions to oneself.

[Jahudo]

Let's look at what you said about Tony directly before that:

Side note: I feel that Tony has been lurking and acting scummy when he's actually posted, so I'd vote him before Seraphim. And Nik wagon is still good.

Which I read as you slowly creeping your way toward the Tony wagon. Then when you add your bit about wanting to see Tony post before you think about switching I saw a continuation of that hesitency. With us moving toward deadline at that point and you confessing that multiple bandwagons is a good thing, I just fail to see how you as town would have so much hesitency.

That's not being hesitant. I was very specific on why I wasn't voting Tony, and what it would take for me to switch wagons. When Tony got replaced, there was 0% chance I'd vote his replacement based on Tony actions, because that condition never got fulfilled.

Same with your Post 230 when you say:

I don't see the case on VP yet

, but I'm interested to see how VP responds and if Nik elaborates.

First, I have no idea what you saw in Nik's case that even made you interested because it was complete crap. Second, the bolded implies that you could be swayed that way (presumably based on my response) just over a day from deadline. You were also touching on Seraphim all day without serious action (voting). You were looking for deadline shennanigans to start up if you ask me.

I didn't see anything in Nik's case, hence me saying I don't see the case on VP. I just wanted Nik to talk more and hopefully give up more reads under the enhanced pressure of a deadline where he was likely to be lynched. There was little he could have said to make me vote you, but we still needed more opinions from him so we could talk about it day 2.

Objection!

*cue Vi-cool Ace Attorney graphics*

Mafia Reverberation is not relatable in anyway to the circumstances in this game because the lynching threshold was only four votes and there were multiple double voters in play and we could lynch multiple people in a day. I don't see how you are even drawing a comparison between that and a seven vote straight lynch.

First off, that's my line. Secondly, I was speaking generally in that you can have 2 suspects with enough support to be lynched, and both can be scum. Nik was a good #1 suspect, but I still think my #2 or #3 suspects from day 1 can still flip scum.

If you want to make the argument that I was trying to lynch Tony-town or Sera-town, that means you think they're town right?

Don't see how these are related again. I can actually be suspicious of multiple people at the same time, even if they are attacking each other.

it's all good if dramonic wasn't the only reason you unvoted Nik for Tony. And I can believe you were using other reasons.

The point was to prod Tony toward contributing SOMETHING. I would argue that DDD and I voting for him was what actually got him to replace out, which actually made me think him more town. That was my reason for voting, not simply DDD. Obviously, I can't make a statement like that in thread or the vote becomes meaningless. This is, of course, is best view opposite of your talk without voting, which did nothing.

I guess I can understand you not revealing that feeling, but how do you know/think DDD felt that way too? Tony gave a reason for being too busy, so do you think he was lying to protect his player slot from suspicion?

Well, they were all doing the same thing at that point, which was nothing. The point is that you were being a wimp about it and wouldn't move your vote. It just reads as too safe to me.

Let the mod deal with prods and replacements placing. A player that isn't around to see your vote really isn't under pressure from the vote, unless you can prove a non-poster has seen your vote. Talk about an easy vote to place.

The vibe I kept getting yesterday was that if enough momentum moved away from Nik you'd be there in a flash, but you didn't want the responsibility of the one starting it, which of course doesn't look so great to me in light of the flip.

Late yesterday I disagreed with the dramonic wagon, and I was asked how I felt about the Porkens wagon as a competing wagon, and I stuck to my position that he wasn't acting scummy. I also said I wasn't joining the VP wagon. There's three competing wagons I was against.

Alright, I'm giving one more day to our lurkers to come in here and give their reads/make a case why they shouldn't be lynched. If I still get nothing, then I'm coming back to Nik because that's the most viable wagon right now. I'm so annoyed at this game right now it's not even funny.

This was a funny post. "Hey lurkers! If you don't want me to vote you, keep on lurking!"

No. Keep reaching though. All people have to do is look at the quotes in context to see the meaning. It's quite clear my Nik vote wasn't moving to dram.

So you'd keep your vote on something you felt better about? Or did you mean "feel better [about lynching]"?

There are times when town needs to play things close to their chest for the greater good.

I agree. Maybe we were both doing this yesterday.