Mini 954 ~ Mafia at the 11th Hour (Game Over!)

[semioldguy]

Letting yourself die if your town when you can prevent it isn't good for the town.

My ability doesn't prevent my death, it will most likely just delay it.

[Vi]

Vote Count XXI:

- Silence Leads to Harsh Conditions Later

semioldguy (L-1) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, d3x, dramonic, Porkens, Pomegranate

Pomegranate (L-5) ~ Cobalt
VP Baltar (L-5) ~ Jahudo
Percy (L-5) ~ semioldguy
Cobalt (L-5) ~ VP Baltar

Jahudo (L-6) ~

VP Baltar

Minimum (L-6)

Not Voting:

Percy

-semioldguy is at L-1!

Battery Power:

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(46%)

[Jahudo]

If SOG is scum, we'd want him to use the power to prove that someone isn't his partner. But as scum he might be lying about that part of the role, so the test might not mean anything unless we can also see a townie get the same power with that same condition (you can't pass it on to a partner) at L-1.

If SOG is town, there's a chance whoever he selects will keep him alive and lynch scum. That'll put us in a better situation as a team, but maybe not prevent his lynch the next day unless he doesn't look like a likely buddy through connections. Still I think we'd be in a good enough situation with this scenario for a SOG-town to accept it.

But If they lynch town other than him, we might go lynch him the following day anyway and we'd be in a bad enough situation that the power was not worth using.

[Percy]

VPB vs. Jahudo:
I think Jahudo taking the quote about lurker-voting completely out of context is what sticks out for me the most. Jahudo continues to insist that it means what he wanted it to mean, but it is quite clear to me from the context of the quote that he liked his vote on Nik,

especially

since Nik had called lurking a scumtell and then proceeded to lurk. The only reason lurking was being discussed was due to DDD's appeal to VP Baltar to vote dramonic for lurking.

It's also things like this:

There are times when town needs to play things close to their chest for the greater good.

I agree. Maybe we were both doing this yesterday.

@everybody else: Are Jahudo-VP Baltar wall cases hurting your ability to join the discussion? Or no affect?

...that feel like scumlanguage; an attempt to identify with the townie you're attacking, and excusing people for not reading what you and VP Baltar have written is the scum spin, and it feels compelling to me.
However, this is just as weird:

Also, people who are not Jahudo and I should also be scumhunting. Just saying.

It seems to me that he admits that Jahudo is scumhunting (not that scum don't pretend to scumhunt, but that's beside the point).

Nice catch, Pom. It may be a scumslip, in that it reads almost like an admission that Jahudo's case has merit.

Overall, I'm coming down on the VP side of the argument, however. Need to think some more when I'm not on quite so much codeine.

semioldguy/TonyMontana:
TonyMontana's vote on d3x looks bad in light of Nik's flip. Aside from that, it seems like he was in "attack DDD" mode before being replaced.
I don't have anything to say about his vote on me, because he hasn't said anything worth replying to.

I can wipe the vote clean. At such a time that I do this, I will get to choose one person in the game and his vote will be the only vote to count for the day, essentially allowing that player to choose who the lynch is on his own.

Can you choose yourself?
Do you have to be at L-1 to use it?

@DDD

: What is your read on Pomegranate? You seem to isolate some interaction with Nikanor here but never follow up on it.

Interested in hearing from Gamma and Cobalt.

And basically I didn't see his Porkens case because I've argued that Porkens' desire to lynch whoever is probably something he'd say as town. Percy might disagree with that meta, or just not be aware of it and not trust it.

I am not aware of Porkens' meta. So Jahudo is saying that Porkens is playing to his town meta, but VP Baltar is saying he is explicitly not:

@ Porkens - You've really been a bit of a non-entity this game, which is not what I'm really used to from you. Normally I see you as a leader, even if that leadership is chaotic at times. Are you not feeling motivated to play this game?

...so I have no idea who to believe, and I don't feel like doing the research right now (but I will tomorrow). At the moment, my opinion of Porkens is largely unchanged.

-I am actually interested in seeing what semioldguy comes up with,
-I want to hear from Cobalt and Gamma,
-And do some research on Porkens,
-And think more about Jahudo/VP,

...so I'm not going to vote semioldguy at the moment, but I am declaring my intention to hammer in the future. For the moment, I'll

Vote: Jahudo

for the sake of a competing wagon (Jahudo understands).

[Porkens]

SOG should stay against the wall until he either uses his power and gives the hammer vote to someone not on his wagon or gets lynched.

[Porkens]

VP - sorry for my non-entity-ness. I won't make excuses. It is what it is.

[semioldguy]

No. I cannot give it to myself.

[Jahudo]

Percy, what do you think about SOG's play? Is there anything he's said/done that looks scummy?

VPB vs. Jahudo:
I think Jahudo taking the quote about lurker-voting completely out of context is what sticks out for me the most. Jahudo continues to insist that it means what he wanted it to mean, but it is quite clear to me from the context of the quote that he liked his vote on Nik,

especially

since Nik had called lurking a scumtell and then proceeded to lurk. The only reason lurking was being discussed was due to DDD's appeal to VP Baltar to vote dramonic for lurking.

I understand that, but I think it was deliberate in telling how Nikanor could get off VP's radar or stay on fairly easily.

...that feel like scumlanguage; an attempt to identify with the townie you're attacking,

Or I was realizing a similarity in what we were both trying to accomplish.

and excusing people for not reading what you and VP Baltar have written is the scum spin, and it feels compelling to me.

Scum spin, what do you mean? I would only be excusing people if they could describe why the walls were hurting their ability to contribute, but that's moot now that the discussion is on SOG and the approaching deadline.

And basically I didn't see his Porkens case because I've argued that Porkens' desire to lynch whoever is probably something he'd say as town. Percy might disagree with that meta, or just not be aware of it and not trust it.

I am not aware of Porkens' meta. So Jahudo is saying that Porkens is playing to his town meta, but VP Baltar is saying he is explicitly not:

@ Porkens - You've really been a bit of a non-entity this game, which is not what I'm really used to from you. Normally I see you as a leader, even if that leadership is chaotic at times. Are you not feeling motivated to play this game?

...so I have no idea who to believe, and I don't feel like doing the research right now (but I will tomorrow). At the moment, my opinion of Porkens is largely unchanged.

I don't think those meta tells are contradictory. One describes his desire for a short day 1, not mucked in repetitive conversation, while the other seems to talk about his ability to pro-actively scumhunt.

And I wouldn't say that first part is exclusive to Porkens-town, I've just seen him act this way as town making it a possibly unreliable tell. Here's my example: Mafia Reverberation.

[VP Baltar]

VP - sorry for my non-entity-ness. I won't make excuses. It is what it is.

Actually, I'd like some excuses. You were pretty active in our other ongoing (including lynching my player slot ), so what's the deal with this game?

[Porkens]

I really don't have any for you. I think that in this game I've been accused of dodging questions? It wasn't my intent or I didn't understand the questions.

I think we are on the right track with SOG.

[semioldguy]

What makes you think you are on the right track?

[Porkens]

Because you aren't willing to use your ability to help the town.

[dramonic]

Worst case scenario use it and whoever gets it may decide to end you anyways.
It'd at least prove you're not BSing us.

[Percy]

Percy, what do you think about SOG's play? Is there anything he's said/done that looks scummy?

1. He was one of the more strident opponents of the Nikanor lynch yesterday,
2. He never said why (just that he didn't "feel it"),
3. His response to my question about his read on DDD is weak, given that DDD has been pushing for a lynch on his slot for pretty much the entire game,
4. His vote on me has never been elaborated upon; he calls for others to do the case construction for him.

...that feel like scumlanguage; an attempt to identify with the townie you're attacking,

Or I was realizing a similarity in what we were both trying to accomplish.

...so do you actually think VP Baltar is/was town playing something close to his chest?
(The point is, identifying a similarity in your goals with someone else is kinda weird when you're voting for them).

Scum spin, what do you mean?

I mean "reading this as if Jahudo is scum, the interpretation is...", which is to say that there is a town spin, but the scum interpretation makes more sense to me.

that's moot now that the discussion is on SOG and the approaching deadline.

It is? Nobody told me...

Still haven't gotten around to a Porkens meta-analysis.

Also, as far as we know Nikanor didn't get a power at L-1, or any detectable powers at all, correct?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD

: What is your read on Pomegranate? You seem to isolate some interaction with Nikanor here but never follow up on it.

Found something? She switched out herself for myself in the RVS scumlist I put together after rolling dice. No I did not find something actually useful from that post.

Other than that? She helped lynch scum on D1 which was positive and is on the best wagon today so I've got to say I'm currently inclined to believe she is town.

Interested in hearing from Gamma and Cobalt.

Gamma is dead...

[Pomegranate]

Interested in hearing from Gamma and Cobalt.

Gamma is dead...

Indeed, but I agree that we must here from Cobalt before the day is out.

[Vi]

Vote Count XXII:

- Pinned on a Conveyor Belt

semioldguy (L-1) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, d3x, dramonic, Porkens, Pomegranate

Pomegranate (L-5) ~ Cobalt
VP Baltar (L-5) ~ Jahudo
Percy (L-5) ~ semioldguy
Cobalt (L-5) ~ VP Baltar
Jahudo (L-5) ~ Percy

Minimum (L-6)

Not Voting:

Percy

-semioldguy is at L-1!

Battery Power:

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(38%)

[d3x]

Ok, so I know that i'm not the top poster around here {I've had some RL issues that won't die}, but I believe Cobalt is due for a...

Mod

- Prod on Cobalt, plz?

Also, I think that this game needs a Lynch to kick everything back into gear. I'm of course down for SOG, but I'm also pretty good with Cobalt on the block.

Also also, SOG has been L-1 for a *long* time. Just like Nik, if Scum wanted him dead, they'd have had planty of opportunities. If he is Town or 3rd party, look on the Wagon. Just saying.

[Jahudo]

There shouldn't be any 3rd parties, because of this rule:

1. Like an Open Setup Except Not. This game includes nine (9) members of the Town and three (3) members of the Plague. You will be warned if you are in LyLo (Lynch Correctly or Lose) or MyLo (Mislynch and Lose).

@SOG: are you going to explain your Percy case or not? If no, why not?

I think Cobalt is town based on how Nikanor tried to wagon Seraphim, so he's not a concern for me.

[Vi]

------

Cobalt is being prodded.

------

[semioldguy]

Percy was trying to pull momentum away from the Nikanor wagon while still remaining highly suspicious of him. Looked like he was covering his bases.

@Porkens
I don't percieve my ability as being helpful to the town since I believe I will be lynched anyway even if I use it, whether that be today or tomorrow. Mislynches become more costly the further into the game you get. If a mislynch is going to happen it is better that it happen earlier instead of later.

The case against me is largely nothing I as a player am responsible for and it is largely based around the way Tony Montana and Nikanor both acted (neither of which I have any answers for you other than to say that I think the case is dumb and not based on scum tells or real scum hunting at all). Which makes me feel that neither I nor my ability will be able to prevent the lynch until the majority of the game pulls their heads from their rear-ends and starts looking at things that are there instead of things that aren't.

[Porkens]

@Porkens
I don't percieve my ability as being helpful to the town since I believe I will be lynched anyway even if I use it, whether that be today or tomorrow. Mislynches become more costly the further into the game you get. If a mislynch is going to happen it is better that it happen earlier instead of later.

If you believe this and are still unwilling to try to prove your claim then you should hammer yourself and save us the misslynch later on.

[semioldguy]

Refusing to prevent one's own death and killing oneself are not the same thing. If someone is pointing a gun at me and threatens to shoot me if I don't move and I refuse to move which results in me getting shot it is not the same as if someone is pointing a gun at me and threatens to shoot me if I don't move and I pull out my own gun and shoot myself first.

If it takes my own vote to lynch me, then I was not going to be lynched in the first place. Additionally, by having someone other then me hammer myself, the town stands to gain more information and I would not deny the town that potential information by self-hammering.

[VP Baltar]

Worst case scenario use it and whoever gets it may decide to end you anyways.
It'd at least prove you're not BSing us.

And what does the town gain by proving he's not lying about the ability? As I said before, I think that the ability would say more about the person who receives it than it does about SOG.

..so do you actually think VP Baltar is/was town playing something close to his chest?
(The point is, identifying a similarity in your goals with someone else is kinda weird when you're voting for them).

Yer. Jahduo, was it only after I brought up how I was playing yesterday that you saw this similarity or was it before?

Still haven't gotten around to a Porkens meta-analysis

You can look at the oft-quoted Mafia Reverberation, Pale Moon Risin', Star Control I or the ongoing Star Control II game for my own personal background with Porkens. I think in Mafia Reverb and both the Star Control games Porkens was hella more active and actually scumhunting. I'm not sure how Jahudo is comparing his performance in Reverb to here, but oh well. I would say Porkens' play in Pale Moon was a little more similar to here, but in that game he was a dayvig and was trying to stay under the radar so he didn't get NK'ed. That being said, I'd even contest in that game that he was still actively scumhunting because he shot two scum (iirc) back-to-back before dying. Though he wasn't saying much, he was clearly reading the game closely. In this game, I'm just getting the vibe that he's following popular opinion.

The case against me is largely nothing I as a player am responsible for and it is largely based around the way Tony Montana and Nikanor both acted (neither of which I have any answers for you other than to say that I think the case is dumb and not based on scum tells or real scum hunting at all). Which makes me feel that neither I nor my ability will be able to prevent the lynch until the majority of the game pulls their heads from their rear-ends and starts looking at things that are there instead of things that aren't.

That's not entirely true. You were against the Nik wagon yesterday for largely unexplained reasons, weren't you?

[Porkens]

SOG was popular opinion?