Pledge of Allegiance (Game Over! Page 76)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Just based on meta, I'd say that UncertainKitten couldn't resist taking scum or other.

I'd also lynch Zorblag without question today.

Really? I would've bet on Zorblag selecting town, unless you think he'd abuse that expectation to pull a double move and select scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD - I think Troll has proven very successful as a scum player in the past and wouldn't mind the challenge. Why do you think he'd take town?

Obviously I know he can be dangerous as scum, but personally I think his attitude is part of what Oj posted "Besides, solving>pulling a leg. " Just seems to me that'd he'd rather be solving the puzzle than engaging in subterfuge if given a choice.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

##vote: Nicodemus

I think the Jack thing was/is a distraction from hunting scum and I'm suspicious of those who voted him bceause it seems like an easy vote for scum. I think even if Jack is a cult leader that DGB is right that Jack is an obvious target for any manner of PRs and hopefully a vig. Since Oj and Gama have actually contributed they're lower priorities leaving Nicodemus as the one who showed up, dropped a bad vote and scurried off.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

- No sign he’s thought about the actual chances of Jack being cult leader (very slim) – more like he’s parroting DGB.

DDD and to a lesser degree DGB again-Why would you leave a cult leader alive a day and let them get a recruit before killing them instead of lynching them before they have a chance to take someone down with them? And what good will PRs be on him except finding other possible members? I don't get your logic here.

It seems pretty freaking stupid for an actual anti-town cult leader or for scum to drive suspicion to themselves by talking about a cult leader from the word go. I don't think it's thus an unreasonable assumption to find Jack likelier to be town or at least neutral-other. Thus the people voting for him are voting a player who probably doesn't hurt the town win con under easy cover of "omg cult leader".

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD Let's play a super awesome game.
Fill in the Blank.
Jack is town but completely ignoring questions multiple people have asked of him because ___________.

*The questions are dumb.
*The questions are redundant.
*The questions are annoying.
*The answer to the questions is obvious.
*He can get away with not answering the questions.
*He thinks the questionnaire(s) is/are scum and doesn't feel obliged to help them build a case.

I could probably come up with more, but I think you get the point by now. There are plenty of reasons I wouldn't bother answering questions as any alignment.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Look at this post people...

Yeah im going to defend my town reads hardcore. Especially against really bad points. Lets try you. Why is guessing scummy?

Guessing isn't scummy when it's just guessing, but when someone asks you how many scum are in the game and you come back with a very confident, exact number, it

is

suspicious. No townie role, at least in my experience, could possibly give you any clue as to the exact number of scum in a game. If it was a guess, fine, but the way Parama presented the number it sure didn't sound like a guess.

I am however, willing to accept that Parama was joking, because I've seen him do things like this in the past (OMG META Parama), but you defending his, on the surface, non-guess as a guess made me question your motives. We're on the same page with Parama and xvart, though, so I'm willing to drop this for now.

But I'm curious: what is the number of scum that you guess are in this game?

-------------------------------------------

DGB's case looks good, although I admit it seems to be drifting into "too townie to be town" land. I'm going to let Zorblag post a bit more before I come to any conclusions on that front.

He displays utter oblivousness to a possible information role and only uses the "joking" assumption to try and back away from a bad situation when both possibilities should have been a consideration in the beginning.

And then he ends the post by mischaracterizing IIoA as "too townie to be town" which is really just a dreadful opinion. Nico needs more votes.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, what did you think of Nicodemus's Post 164? You don't like his Jack vote from the start of the game (I'm indifferent; at that point it's a reason to vote and he didn't do any pushing to make it an issue particularly) and I don't disagree with what you've got to say about his most recent post but I'm not sure why you're pushing him over, say, Phate just now.

Meta argument on Parama tells me nothing. Think he's a bit hypocritical in his critique of xvart who jumped on the QT "issue" much like Nico jumped on the number of scum thing making the worst possible assumption without really thinking things through. I don't like his critique of LF and he's suspicious of UK for gut which means nothing to me. Really his behavior is toss-up at best there.

Is there a reason that Phate is a much better lurker lynch than any of the other lurkers? Because I'm not seeing enough from him to really separate him from that bunch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Balter is such glaringly scummy, it's hurting my head. First he hops on Xvart and declares Xvart as the lynch. The next day he hops on Phate. It's painful reading his scummy posts.

##unvote
##vote Balter

DDD, do you think Balter is scum?

I really don't know, first off I don't know if I've ever played with VPB-scum (Fact-check: He replaced in as a cult mentor in Mini 845 and I was an even later replacement as town; And he was scum in New York 91 and I was on an opposing scum team but I was modkilled by a moron by this point in the game). So I have, but I guess never within this sort of context where we were both started the game together and I'm actually looking for scum. More generally while the vote hopping bothers me a small amount; when it's very early in the game I don't think it's particularly scummy; later on it's much more serious.

On the other hand I'm not fond of his lynch targets at all because they seem like very low hanging fruit. Parama, xvart, and Phate are all easy targets and I'm not terribly thrilled with those wagons.

I guess VPB wouldn't be a bad lynch from my perspective today, but not nearly as good a lynch as Nico or Pops who just went spiraling up my scumlist with his one post.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

##Unvote
##Vote: Popsofctown

Fine, if people aren't going to help me lynch Nicodemus then let's try this one because his play is ridiculously scummy as well and maybe it'll actually catch on.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I actually don’t like Fishy’s arguments. Not that they aren’t correct, but as a statistician when I’m scum I sometimes like to argue about the statistics because I can’t really be wrong there and it looks busy. I think the Fish is a mathematician so I could certainly see him using the Gambler’s Fallacy discussion as a shield for other discussion.

Blech, I hate the fact that Nicodemus jumped on my wagon but I still think it’s a good wagon. Do I really need to do a line by line analysis to convince you people?

I don’t like Parama’s “want to lynch a lurker” attitude. We’re 19 pages in and you’re essentially saying the scummiest thing you can find is the fact that a player called Limited Access due to exams and then being slow to catch up?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

##Vote: Fishy

What a bizarre sequence of events that was, I think I agree with charter that there’s probably no reason to aid Fishy at this point by stringing things out. The best case scenario is he’s being completely truthful but he’s already admitted to being willfully deceptive and farside apparently has a report that contradicts his statements. But given that Fishy is completely out for himself there’s no reason to assume he has anything to help the town with other than he claims it to be so and why wouldn’t he claim that.

~~~

Too bad DGB isn’t a davig because if she was she should’ve killed Nicodemus pages ago for his completely blatant rolefishing. The last time I saw someone do it that obviously was when I was scum and a townie had claimed a guilty on me, absolutely horrendous and he needs to find himself a quick death.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm just baffled that the Fishy lynch has fallen apart like it has. He's been outed as a completely self-interested actor and while he claims to want to help the town there's obviously no evidence to support that other than his word. And Zorblag's idea is completely ridiculous, why would Fishy kill himself if we don't have the stones to lynch him now when he's already been incredibly deceptive, why not go back to day alive with either a chance to earn more mislynches if he's scum or an SK or to earn more points if he is indeed this "non-hostile" other.

Furthermore, if the wagon falls apart I have no idea how it isn't Nicodemus who isn't getting strung up. Ignoring his dreadful play from yesterday he then just blatantly rolefished today to try and completely out a PR whose claim has been verified by the person they claimed against.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro and farside22, you seem to misunderstand the point of my plan. If the town isn't willing to lynch Fishythefish today then we should be doing something like telling him to target a PGO tonight whether or not he's going to do it. If he does then great, issue dealt with. If he doesn't then the rest of the town has lost their reason to trust him and should drop their unwillingness to lynch. Of course, if he's refusing to go along with the plan without giving objections that make sense then we should be able to go back to lynching him today.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I didn't misunderstand it at all, I just thought it through. Obviously it's a test of his willingness to follow town instruction, except we've already seen systemic deceptions and omissions from him so I've already seen enough to know that he'll put his interest ahead of the town. Furthermore, think through the example, there is basically no role, town, scum, or other where I'd be willing to off myself at night except possibly in the case of as town heading into LYLO where I'd inevitable be lynched otherwise for town to lose. Since this is obviously not the case there's no chance a rational player, which Fishy clearly is, would kill himself when he can take another chance to help himself and/or his faction. So I'd rather skip the bullshit of some faulty loyalty test and do today what you're suggesting we'll inevitably do tomorrow.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD - and actually everyone else who thinks I should be lynched: to what extent do you think my claims are true?

I believe your general claim of being an other rather than a SK or mafia aligned. What I'm not very inclined to believe is that your presence and "points" actually benefit the town.

But I think the chance of your lynch has deflated and I think the Nico wagon which I was repping yesterday and today is finally growing and has the chance to actually lynch scum instead of an other who doesn't have the town's best interest at heart.

##Unvote
##Vote: Nicodemus

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

We can begin by lynching Troll.

Then we can vig Nico.

It's very simple, kids.

Jack, StrangerCoug, imaginality, pops, d3x, Phate, Nico >>> unproductive voters.

GET ON WITH THE BIZNIS

Wait, so we had two kills last night. Let's make the not at all unreasonable assumption that one of them was a mafia kill. You've also claimed that Zorblag is an SK and we'll presume responsible for the other kill. Where do we get this mythical vig to kill Nicodemus with after killing SK-Zorblag in your fantasy world?

~~~

I really wouldn't mind lynching pops because of his late vote on an unlikely to be lynched target in Jack.

~~~

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, the main purpose of the plan is to demonstrate to the town that Fishythefish shouldn't be trusted to to act in the town's best interest. If we're not lynching him today then without something like that I don't see any reason to think that we'll be doing it later either and I don't think that we want to have someone who we know isn't town and hasn't been completely upfront with us around indefinitely.

Well if that was the goal then it hasn't worked on the majority of the town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Troll, on the bad gut. Is there deadline pressure yet?

Three days away in a big game, yeah I'd say there's deadline pressure. And you should be helping us lynch your scum-partner Nicodemus, that'll help you get town cred.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

##Vote: popsofctown

I also think Troll should snipe Shotty today to verify his ability for us; this would also hopefully eliminate one of the "other" government groups (from my perspective it looks like three groups of two) cutting down on the WIFOM and nonsense we have to cut through and hopefully it'll lay down a significant threat to keep the other "others" in line with the town since Troll actually seems willing to help the town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Claim: Small Business Owner, Vanilla Townie

I'm really annoyed that this whole other's discussion has taken over the town because I think it's a distraction and a mistake. With three point factions it makes the most sense to me that at least one of them earns points for scum assists rather than town assists so one could be feeding the others bad information to help themselves. And second, even if they are all town aligned one could easily be lying to the other to try and trick them into being on a town lynch to earn them negative points and gain an advantage that way. If I was part of an other faction and outed I'd certainly be spinning lies to confuse the other other factions.

Next, DGB's claim appears to be fake. Whether that means she's a governmental other or scum I'm not yet sure but I don't like or trust either alignment.

Next I think it's obviously likely that one of charter/Plum and farside/RC are each scum, even with the slight differences in the alleged roles far too similar for me to feel comfortable with both sides of the equation being town.

DGB did raise one good point recently I think about Zorblag in that it's very odd how he had the opportunity to ice someone in a government faction allegedly yesterday and chose not to.

Pops is still extremely scummy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Are they dead or did they just lose their votes? VC immediatly afterwards is confusing.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

##Unvote
##Vote: DGB

Nothing new on this front other than she's basically confirmed as non-hostile other or scum. Her attempts to bring down UK were actually pretty funny in their complete incoherency.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm not voting Chronopie based upon what the governmental people said because of previously made objections. If there's a case to be made outside of all that I'm all ears, but points factions said so doesn't cut it for me.

I do agree with UK about the double roles containing scum. I was leaning towards RC as the scum tracker but honestly his strange ambivilance to the DGB throws me a little and farside's choice to track SC is just completely bizarre to me from a town perspective. Why wouldn't you track one of the doubles especially when we'd have someone able to confirm SC neighborizing them?

Not sure about the other duplicates, Plum's role claim makes more sense but I'm done trying to use that to break open in a game since it backfired on me the last time I tried it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

May I please ask what reason you have for not believe the government?

I'm really annoyed that this whole other's discussion has taken over the town because I think it's a distraction and a mistake. With three point factions it makes the most sense to me that at least one of them earns points for scum assists rather than town assists so one could be feeding the others bad information to help themselves. And second, even if they are all town aligned one could easily be lying to the other to try and trick them into being on a town lynch to earn them negative points and gain an advantage that way. If I was part of an other faction and outed I'd certainly be spinning lies to confuse the other other factions.

To vote for chrono based on the government requires me to assume that all of the government earned points for pro-town behavior, that they made no mistakes (while still concealing some actions and partners), and that they were not engaged in any subterfuge when they were in direct competition for points. That is more assumptions than I feel comfortable making.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I cannot plausibly believe that charter-scum would falsify an other result to implicate UK as a serial killer instead of just killing her at night especially when UK herself suggests there's been absolutely no momentum for her lynch. Furthermore, given the very specific claim that chronopie made I'm inclined to believe it even coming from scum.

##Vote: UncertainKitten

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I know it isn't/wasn't sexy to lurk as I often did (sometimes it was me legitimately being MIA, sometimes it was strategic) but it was effective and it's what General DGB told me to do in the her first post in our QT.

I'm not sure we had phenomenal teamwork like zoraster suggested, for most of the beginning and middle of the game we mostly let DGB run the show and while that's certainly effective that we didn't exactly have any massive power struggle it's not like it was an equal partnership or even that hard. Much credit to DGB for Gamma's PGO claim especially because while people may have been skeptical they couldn't overcome their fear to do anything about it.

Zorblag in regards to the beginning of the day where chronopie got lynched; I felt like I had heavily invested in the "can't trust the government" position and for me to flip on that and bus chronopie quickly would've made it super obvious that I was indeed bussing him. Maybe I was mistaken and no one would've picked up on that, but that was my logic for staying off the wagon in the beginning (and then I was simply away from the computer when the lynch was run through on late Friday).