Mini 964: Another Story - Over!

[yabbaguy]

/first?

[yabbaguy]

Played several, but regrettably, my Town record has been shoddy. Now that I'm back and have read games before coming back *goes on to rant and brag for about 5 minutes about how I'm going to rock this game and kick the Mafia's ass*

If you want to hear me rant, cheer, cry, blather, and reflect on my past games, go to the YGDB linked in my sig.

Interesting how there are two Thieves in the building.

[yabbaguy]

1. Faster. Apathy kills Town if it gets out of hand.
2. Both. Like wondering why you started the RQS.
3. Random lynch. NL is uninformative and stupid.
4. Not a catch-all.
5. Not a catch-all.
6. Wildly swingy.

@Red_Star: Why are you starting off with Random Questioning Stage? It's an absolutely pointless vehicle for starting discussion, and allows scum to contribute without fear. ANYBODY can answer these questions eloquently and look like a pro-town player.

Too bad I can't vote right now.

[yabbaguy]

@Elias (Cc: everyone else voting me): It's always an opinion I've held, not just me thinking like scum this one time. I nearly got swindled in a Newbie game by one player (markish) because he did an excellent job of continuing the RQS throughout the entirety of his stay in the game, even when I squawked at him, too.

It seems like you
1. Don't want to seem scummy by not answering the questions.
2. Want to gain brownie points by attacking the questioner.

1. Do you think it would've been more pro-town if I had not answered the questions? I know your tactic is to go for town points, but trying to determine how scum would optimally play a situation leads to WIFOM circles.
2. An absurd remark. My way to start games is to be as argumentative as possible, because this is a game of arguing (so Deer fell is incorrect, I don't like RVS either). It leads to scumhunting which leads to scum lynching.
So, yes, I want brownie points for beginning to scumhunt, even if it's based on a highly disagreeable opinion. Why is this problematic?

[yabbaguy]

So the issue seems to be that I'm a hypocrite for answering the questions I stated I despise. I already said outright I did 2.

I know where I made the mistake. I've done this before (as both alignments, granted), answering and badgering the random questions simultaneously, but the past times I have, I've always followed up with the question "What do you learn from my answers?". It's an absolutely ridiculous oversight, but that's why I answer the questions, to make an example of how ridiculous questionnaires are.

@Red Star: What do you learn from my answers?

The Ad Hom (the reference to my play style) and the frankly ridiculous idea that you shouldn't think how scum would play are also points for you being scum.

I don't think you understood my last point correctly. Just because I use your playstyle as a reference does not constitute Ad Hom, to me anyway. I was using it as an example, saying "that's your notion of how you'd play scum, but not all scum play like you do." Hence the WIFOM remark about deducing which way they're going to play the game, if it even falls into that dichotomy.

Clearer this time?

[yabbaguy]

Speaking as the recipient of the vote, Elias' vote was an as-serious-as-can-be vote, I believe. Not random, but not fully developed either.

[yabbaguy]

Yaggaguy, you are correct about my vote.

First of all, I know that you prefer a faster paced game because in a slow one people lose interest. <snip>

No kidding.

Do you believe this information is going to prove useful? Have you seen examples of RQS/surveys/etc. that have helped scumhunt?

Red Star, also, your FoS' is out of line. Of course accusations are baseless in the preliminary stages of the game, and I even said outright that I was being argumentative partially for the hell of being argumentative.

Cyanide generally has an anti-town meta too and a silly mannerism, from what I gather. Let's make sure we're at least aware that some behaviors are null for him. I'm uncertain about what Empking is griping about over his RV anyway, but I notice posts are being made whilst I type this.

[yabbaguy]

Quickpost: One of Emp and Jag needs to get an avatar. I'm going to be frustrated the whole game otherwise.

[yabbaguy]

Unvote

Vote: yabbaguy

I believe that some experimental pressure will give us additional data to work with.

Huh?

[yabbaguy]

Unvote:
Vote: yabbaguy

I don't like his "huh" reaction to the pressure vote. I've had people pressure vote me when I'm town, and my response is generally, "that's useless since you label it as a pressure vote." Or something. "Huh" seems really unnatural and forced to me.

"Huh?" = I don't understand what you want for me/what you're trying to accomplish, so yeah, same thing.

Re: "unnatural and forced"- Huh?

More later.

[yabbaguy]

Yabba hasn't done anything since leaving RVS.

Okay, I'm beginning to get frustrated at everyone here.

I don't know how I'm supposed to be replying to statements such as this. I don't know if this is a scumtell you're observing, or you're just saying it just to warn me of it. I've posted, granted, it's all been rebuttals (I hate the sound of the word "defense" in Mafia) against suspicions as of my recent posts, but it still counts as "doing something".

Help me out here. It's not fair that I'm being accused over something that I can't understand. Is it because I'm defending myself that I am "doing nothing" or something else?

I'm still in the middle of analyzing Jag Johan, but at the same time balancing a school project. Tuesday at the latest, I'll post again on, bear minimum, that issue.

[yabbaguy]

Why don't you just focus on finding scum instead of focusing on your own defense yabba?

You've come up with a vote that criticizes me over two things:

-the "Huh" reaction, you didn't reply to my reply on that.
-my playstyle. "Why don't you..." questions are generally attacking playstyle, and that isn't a scumtell to be a bad player at Mafia, it just shows that I'm busy (in this case) or I'm just lazy. Am I wrong?

Your case is extremely contrived to the point of scumminess.

Vote: Thief

[yabbaguy]

...

[yabbaguy]

Mod

: A massprod would be really nice. So many players need a swift kick in the ass right now.

@Jag Johan: I can't tell. Why are you jumping on Emp's wagon, again? The fact that you're shortposting on issues like these drops your alignment transparency way down.

[yabbaguy]

I am so frustrated right now I can't stand it. I'm being baselessly accused by Jag, I can't get replies to my questions and my vote from Jag and Thief, and the game's still a lurkfest even after said swift kicks in the ass.

It's not a matter of needing an apathy-busting technique, we just need people posting more. Sorasgoof was just not paying attention and we have two V/LAs, but I know there are others who can and simply don't post.

[yabbaguy]

ISOlation = the drop down menus All Posts, All users, Oldest First. Set all users to a playername to view just their posts.

[yabbaguy]

-I haven't really seen anything scummy from you, but as Thief said, I'd like to see some of your thoughts on others, since you've been forced to only defend yourself up to this point.

I'm still waiting on Thief, I don't know what you're looking at.

Chevre- I demand you reread. There's so much more you can infer from 5 pages. Don't you think Thief's case on me is contrived to the point of scumminess? What else?

[yabbaguy]

@Star-124: Part of the frustration comes from bad cases on me. I get less frustrated when I'm assured that it comes from scum, in the case of Thief, but that's part of what it is.

I don't notice my confrontation coming out when I'm stating cases, but when a case centers around a case on oneself being CTPOS (contrived to point of scumminess, I'm sick of typing that out), I guess it comes out that way. Am I missing something?

---

Chevre hopping on Jag is abrupt IIRC- I'd like to know why.

[yabbaguy]

But still, do you actually think he's scum? Me, I just wouldn't answer dichotomy questions if I wasn't sure (which are inherently dumb questions usually asked by bickering townies), and I'm really not sure on either of them yet.

[yabbaguy]

Unvote, Vote: Jag Johan

Contradictory stance on RQS:

I like answering questions like this

Red stars question could be a scummy thing to make an impression of doing good for the town. But probably Red just wanted us to get started talking. The info from the questions are not that useful.

notice the latter fencesits a bit.

Questioning just to look good (confessed, even!):

Empking: Why are you attacking people for tiny stuff, why do you think it so important? And why didn't you defend yourself against my accusation?

And a baseless suspicion:

Second suspect is Yabba.

all are telling me this wagon is the way to go.

I think we're at a point where people's apathy has just shot through the roof. That's a sign that this Day needs to end soon.

I'm up for swinging another wagon if anyone else has a truly convincing argument why we should push it their way, but for now, I think Jag's on 4, and I would appreciate 1 or 2 more votes, get a claim, then slam him.

[yabbaguy]

Mod

: You still there?

[yabbaguy]

Uhh... pretty much everyone. Cool gadget: give this a spin, set the time to 72 hours, and prod everyone who shows red.

EXCELLENT.

[yabbaguy]

I'd like to vouch for Cyanide's replacement, as well. I think his absence is a bit ridiculous at this point.

[yabbaguy]

Extremely suspicious timing aside

Code: Select all

*-------------------*
|NO MOD WIFOM PLEASE|
*-------------------*
           | |            

That said, that lynch is sealed no matter how much wine is thrown into the mixture. I mean, c'mon now.

[yabbaguy]

*sign topples from the post being off-center*

Oh well.

[yabbaguy]

Pfft. (All quotes SSBF)

Chevre: I don't see much activity coming from her in this game.

Ridiculous. Chevre, me, and at most 2 other people were the ONLY people posting at one point.

Out of those who are in this game, Dr.Cyanide is the very worst offender.

He's V/LA. It's an absurd-length V/LA, but it's completely null, and a completely ridiculous reason to be calling someone scummy. And you give sorasgoof a free pass, which is also inconsistent.

Elias_the_thief: Like most people, he hasn't really been active.

That alone gets a scum read? What about his content?

yabbaguy: His activity level has been solid in this game as well. However, I find it odd that he calls RQS absolutely useless, even thought it can be beneficial in the game in some ways. On that same post, he was hypocritical as well as he actually answered the random questions. He has been a bit too defensive of himself in some posts, especially ISO: 10. I haven't seen much scum hunting either.

-RQS being useless is an opinion, not a scummy opinion.
-I already explained my reasoning for answering, I wanted to illustrate how dumb the questions were in how they didn't tell anything. (Red Star protested in the most pathetic way afterwards, by stating the obvious)
-I'm defensive because people are pushing crap cases. Like you.
-Bullshittery at its finest on the not scumhunting point. I have two main suspects in mind. Your suspects are based on little more than just "content", and that is a poor scum indicator.

Bottom line: you cop out of scumhunting by going for a quantifiable statistic, activity/lurking, and apply that to most of your scumlist (exception: me, and my case is still ridiculous). If lurking is a scumtell, I've just caught 8 scum.

Confirm Vote: Jag/SSBF

[yabbaguy]

Thief isn't reading.

[yabbaguy]

[Cyanide]'s V/LA. It's an absurd-length V/LA, but it's completely null, and a completely ridiculous reason to be calling someone scummy.

More later. I'm tired.

[yabbaguy]

I find it quite suspicious that yabbaguy seemed so bent on calling me scum, yet to this day, he still hasn't really provided further argument. yabbaguy, if you think so much of me as a scum, then prove it. Right now, your case on me (Not refering to Jag Johan) is not very impressive.

1) A one-day absence from a game is not lurking. The fact that you find that suspicious is absurd and scummy.

2) You can't always vouch for him, but Jag Johan is in your slot. He has committed scummy acts, and that therefore applies to you.

Also, could you pinpoint the timespan where only you, Chevre, and 1-2 people were actually talking?

About 5/21, it was me and Chevre. That's probably what I remembered off-hand, though I forgot there were more about 5/19.

If I said/implied Chevre was a big contributor overall- that's an error by me among the other ones I racked up with the activity point.

Dr.Cyanide promised to return within a few days of his announced V/LA. So far, we have not seen anything else out of him. sorasgoof was getting replaced at the time I was making this post, plus there was absolutely nothing to read about sorasgoof.

Real life probably got in his way, perhaps. Perhaps Cyanide got sick of the game after his vacation, which is plausible. You really can't call it scummy for walking away from ALL his games, unless he's scum in all of them. And even there, you still can't. So I think he's as much of a blank as sorasgoof was.

No. His lack of activity was one thing. He also made promises that he has yet to fufill, which I found scummy as well.

Activity promises don't count. Lurking ISN'T a scumtell, and you know and told us. Can the two beliefs that this activity flake is scummy and lurking is not scummy really coexist? I don't.

What I found scummy was that you took part in something that you didn't want to do, making it hypocritical.

(referencing RQS answers)

I already explained. Do you not believe me?

Also, that big post wasn't made in just two minutes. I put forth genuine efforts toward that post

Not a towntell. Are you saying "good effort" is such?

You had no suspect and nothing was done on that Day. However, you had your eye on a lurker who hasn't really posted much. Then that lurker got put at L-1. What would you rather do? Lynch the lurker or do a no lynch?

No Lynch if it's safe and doesn't reduce the mislynches for Town.

SSBF may be stubborn and just doesn't understand a lurker's perspective, but I think his opinions have been somewhat contradictory. I still want to see him flip.

---

Yabba has pointed out that I'm not paying attention and that Cyanide is absurdly V/LA which means nothing.

Oh it means something. Lurking and V/LA are not the same thing. You are basically voting a completely blank player slot over something that could just be a real life struggle or a developed apathy towards Mafia overall (since Cyanide hasn't popped up anywhere on site last I checked).

In fact, you're voting a NULL tell. If I'm bang on about the apathy theory, why would voting that player slot help? Your initial vote was stated as an intent to wagon and therefore lynch or hint at lynching Cyanide, not a "stall D1 out" vote. It's contradictory.

[yabbaguy]

Top two suspects?

SSBF/Thief.

[yabbaguy]

I do see your point

their

there, but does that mean I have to die for his scumminess? No I do not.

If we think a slot is scummy and your scummy behavior amplifies it more, then yeah... you do. The whole reason we're on this point is because you wanted to distance away from your predecessor's scumminess, which never works. (I've seen someone backtrack on a predecessor's docclaim, but the damage was done, and he flipped scum)

Their was absolutely nothing to go off from sorasgoof. Litterally nothing. With the few posts Cyanide made, I was able to at least get something out of him. I just looked at Dr.Cyanide profile and as of now, he has made 1.36 posts per day on Mafiascum. That means their was no excuse for not being active at all.

PPD means diddly-squat. If Cyanide's quit Mafia, he's quit Mafia, and that average will trickle down as time passes.

What in Cyanide's posts do you find scummy?

[Elias] promised a re-read and thoughts on everything on the game the next day. To this day, this is his most recent post, over ten days ago. Had it not been for the mod's lenient activity rule, he would have been replaced by now. He has still not fufilled his promise.

Elias hasn't posted

at all

in the last 10 days. I just, I don't understand why you're struggling to grasp this concept. If someone doesn't come back to the site at all, that's not lurking.

If you still disagree, tell me I'm wrong directly.

You are saying the following two things, as I perceive them. This isn't intended to be a misrep, it's what I perceive them as.

Lurking isn't scummy

"If someone is posting on the forums, and is perfectly capable of posting in this thread, but isn't, that isn't scummy."

Flaking is scummy

"If someone is not posting on the forums, potentially incapable of posting in the thread, that is scummy simply because they promised they would come back to the site, but didn't."

And if I'm right about that, then the latter argument has a gaping hole in it. A player not coming back to the site is abandoning SEVERAL games, of which may be a mix of Maf and Town games. Since it can apply to both alignments, it's null.

Get it?

---

Realizing that SSBF could just be stubborn and moronic, and Thief is actually trying to derail a wagon so late in the Day, I'm better off switching.

Unvote, Vote: Thief

[yabbaguy]

Erm, do you still disagree with me SSBF?

Also- rah, rah, Unsight.

[yabbaguy]

@Pie: (preemptive) No, we're not massclaiming.

[yabbaguy]

I got screwed up. Thief showed up twice on the last votecount, with him inaccurately listed as voting Cyanide AND SSBF, and despite his accurate remarks that his last vote was on Cyanide, I passed over that.

I unvoted on the basis that the SSBF wagon had lost steam, and that the Thief one would be the one making it to the L-1 stage, which obviously is incorrect. I thought Thief's unvote had subtracted a vote from the SSBF wagon (it already had) and with Chevre's vote on Thief, it would be driven to the lynch. In other words, I was satisfied with my top 2 and wanted the Day to end.

It's not hypocritical derailing, I claim it derailed, THEN I hopped off.

Anyway... c'mon, big money, big money! *claps*

Vote and Hammer: SSBF

[yabbaguy]

Who's Mafia, SSBF? You?

[yabbaguy]

Chevre and Emp are voting SSBF.

[yabbaguy]

I did move too fast. I was thinking Thief and, yeah. Kind of Freudian, I lumped you two into a scum category and swapped your name for his. ^^

You clearly thought it was a hammer back there, that's a bah post if I've ever seen it, yet you didn't help us out by saying "Go for [scum suspect] tomorrow". Why not?

...lemme double check. I mean, I swear we had the hammer, but mod's triple-checked and whatnot, so who knows.

[yabbaguy]

Nope, son of a gun. Pie called L-2 clear too soon.

It's misinformation, sure, but I made the error myself. Bah. Still, SSBF's reaction to the non-hammer was totally a scum reaction.

[yabbaguy]

FFS, SSBF got fauxhammered, believed it, and refused to say "kill him tomorrow" and instead said "well that sucks". Obv scumtell.

So, yeah. It's obvious.

[yabbaguy]

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT'S BACON!!!

Vote: Thief

The non-Mafia kill- I would expect a vig to kill Thief or someone that actually came under suspicion (if anyone), so I agree with the hypothesis that we have an SK.

[yabbaguy]

There have already been a plentiful number of SKs in Minis. It's absolutely Normal and absolutely plausible.

Frankly, while I've tried to find ways to find tells specific to SKs, I've failed miserably at that. Since scum is an overarching category of Mafia and SKs, I go by just that, scumtells. No big deal.

[yabbaguy]

Vibe, frankly, you haven't been helping much with the fact. Feeling sorry for yourself isn't an excuse.

@Pie: If anything- massclaiming is a disaster if we have an Investigative-class role. Since we have established ourselves as rubbish scumhunters by Day, perhaps concrete information learned at Night might help us pull out the win. Then again, I don't know if they exist, but as long as they may, I'm hesitant.

Also, with two kills, we'll definitely lose the rest of the powerroles in a flash. Maybe it'll confirm town, but at the same time, promptly dispose of them, and be useless come LyLo.

I just don't like the consequences of it.

Why does it become *more* dire with an SK around? I'm not following that.

[yabbaguy]

Policy

Unvote

to avoid quickhammer. Claim from Thief (again, not massive) would still be nice, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear resistance from him prior to doing so.

[yabbaguy]

@Yabba: With two kills a night, we're potentially very close to LyLo. Assuming 2 scum 1 SK, mislynch today + no cross-killing = 6 alive, 3 of which are scum. This isn't exactly LyLo, but it's close.

Okay... so are you saying we're just trying to reduce the probability of a mislynch? This instantly falls flat if scum fakeclaims. I agree, the game becomes very dangerous for Town if a mislynch occurs today, but at the same time, you have to think ahead. I really don't want to be in LyLo with investigation roles out of the game and likely the town they confirmed gone with them.

Secondly; what about the "politics" of the factions need to be taken into account? The only thing that I can think of is that you're wondering about investigation immunity. There may very well be investigation screwers (godfathers/millers), but at this point, nobody knows whether they lie in Mafia or SK, if anyone. Even if it was a vig, and we're only facing Mafia, you face the same dilemma of whether an investigation screwer exists or not. Is there something else I'm missing here? Lynch order (do we kill Maf today)? I'm stumped.

Not just at Pie, but everyone, really. I don't get it. One of the consequences of town apathy is that we tend to head towards irrational decisions hoping it will somehow split the game open. I agree fireworks need to be going off right now, but at the same time, keeping claims to a minimum is more important than using them as fuel for said pyrotechnics. Wagonning Thief is one way- esp. with the AtE and what Unsight mentioned about his hopping.

[yabbaguy]

First off,

y

abbaguy. Thanks.

Also we're not starting with me, trust me.

*referee whistle*

NOT ALLOWED.

And your statement is rubbish. Maybe you didn't derail a wagon like I thought, but you've still wanted to lynch V/LA players D1, and now you're resorting to AtE.

I'll respond to pie when I'm on a computer with a working spacebar so I don't have to C/P a fucking space every time I want a fucking space.

[yabbaguy]

Please restructure whatever points you were trying to make here in such a way that the sentences are actually coherent.

I can just tell you're having a rough day today. Sorry to hear that. :\

For whatever reason, I thought you were inactive, but that's absurdly false, if anything, you're the opposite end of the activity spectrum. Dropping. I can't even argue about you needing more content in each post since you pretty much did that.

As for the scum fakeclaiming, I'm regarding powerroles, the problematic aspect of them claiming.

Now I simply don't want to massclaim because Thief is acting scummy and trying to hide behind the process of massclaiming, namely trying to weasel his way into a middle-of-the-pack claim. I don't see a town player, even a powerrole, acting this way.

I don't see massclaim forcing scum out like Pie describes. Does this tend to have a high success rate?

I'm surprised a great number of you want to do this, esp. seeing an obvious suspect glaring me in the face. He's even hiding behind the policy, saying "I won't unless everyone else does". That's what scum wants. If we can't lynch correctly, and then our powerroles go away, then we're on a coin flip at LyLo. Even with speculative guilties as described, we're better off, I believe. Please, please don't let apathy get to us and cause us to do reckless decisions. Outing any investigator with one, unverifiable investigation is a HUGE mistake. Outing any protector with two kills in play is a HUGE mistake.

The debate, I feel, hinges around how much we value PRs, esp. investigative ones, how likely that the mere revealing of claims will help us find scum, and how confident we feel lynching. Remember, we mislynched ONCE. Yeah, I thought for sure SSBF was going to flip red, but at the same time, I think Thief is a surefire bet.

Vote: Thief

I don't know how else to put it. If you all want to out town weaponry, which was put there

to make it fair for town

, fine.

[yabbaguy]

@Vibe: -I don't want to massclaim.
-Thief refuses to claim himself.

Different than before he had the chance to claim.

[yabbaguy]

Advertising this game in signature.

[yabbaguy]

What I'm seesawing on is the possibility that Thief is a Mafia Tracker. If he's a Town Tracker, that suggests a VERY HIGH Town weight (in quantity, likely) already in powerroles minus the Investigative-class role. Seeing as, having heard no dissenting opinions on the matter, we are likely in a 3-party setup, I think Town would need a stronger role than just a tracker, whose scumhunting capabilities will prob hit Town more than Mafia. I don't see why it would exist here.

I think a Mafia Tracker- which can flush out the Town PRs and the SK, have a much greater probability of existing. It sounds like the Mafia's way of coping with the multiple threats is early detection- a Tracker's job. It might as well be a Rolecop if my deduction checks out.

Maf Goon is also possible- but that leads to the same conclusion, so that's irrelevant. It basically boils down to how plausible a Town Tracker is.

That's my thought. I'm also curious why Deer was the target.

[yabbaguy]

Whoops. I really need to start double-checking my

copypasta

.

I'm using that word from now on. I don't care if it's a typo or not.

Am I wrong here? I know, I'm dabbling into setup speculation, but I really want to see how plausible that claim is. I think it's more pro-Mafia at this point, esp. if Mafia only kill with one person. (thus if Tracker targets wrong person, they get a blank on a capable-of-killing Mafioso)

[yabbaguy]

Vibebox
Chevre
Yabba
Red Star
Thief

Deer

RealityFan
Unsight
Pie

This is your most recent list, scummiest at the top, towniest at the bottom. Why did you track the one halfway down the list?

More direct: why's Deer potentially scummy?

[yabbaguy]

See avatar for lowercase username PSA, please. Also, Chevre's female, everyone else and mod is male, if I recall correctly.

Bandwagonning, Paltry, I don't see how that's a tell when I was suspicious, IIRC, of Jag/SSBF and Thief from the get go. I refuse to believe I was accelerating the Day by wagonning like that, yes, I was close to bringing the Day to an end, but did not feel like a wagon would deprive us of valuable discussion time. I hopped on the major wagons yes, but with a good case on both, I thought.

Piesypoo, I don't even regard your Vibe tell as anti-town. Wanting to generate discussion from anything is a sign of pro-Town resourcefulness, and wanting to set off fireworks at every opportunity possible should be rewarded. (Yeah, yeah, I've used the pyrotechnics metaphor multiple times already, but it's true, we need more razzle-dazzle in this game, or nobody else is gonna flock in to replace.)

Also, if you think Thief's tracker claim isn't scummy, that does makes my analysis faulty (in other words: a scumtell makes someone more likely to be scum. I contest tracker here is more likely to be scum). I'm confused.

[yabbaguy]

This post by yabba throws out way too much WIFOM for my liking.

This is pretty much the territory you have to delve into if you're going to figure out whether or not massclaiming is right.

Your presumed hammer vote had poor reasoning

How? You seem to be, for whatever reason, upset at the fact that my perceived objective was just to wagon for the sake of ending the Day. You're partially correct, I was sure (clearly wrong now) that my top 2 were scum, and could afford a lynch on either, hence why I seesawed between the two. I didn't see a reason why D1 should've continued beyond then, and I think if anything, I should be given a medal for putting an end to an overly-drawn out Day. It's not accelerating the Day (I agree, a scumtell) if town apathy has set in like it did.

I was wagonning recklessly, but I wanted either one of my suspects lynched, and could not stand to see D1 go on any longer.

---

I think, while I'll admit my opinion probably was a tad misguided or naive, that it's absolutely fair game for me to dispute claims on the basis of game balance if I think one alignment is more likely to be the case over another for a certain role. Yes, I'm doing a lot of setup probing (and therefore speculations into WIFOM territory), but I think it's pretty much what one has to do in order to determine the true nature of players' claims and optimal strategy.

@Unsight, Thief, and Paltry: Why is it wrong to speculate about his alignment the way I did?

Unvoting until massclaim finishes. I still think this is a mistake and will not change my mind, but I'll cave. I'm also starting to have fears that I'm tunnelvisioning, which I think may be a result of my mind being bogged down by the mass apathy that ensued D1.

Unvote

[yabbaguy]

EBWOP

I still think this is a mistake and will not change my mind

as a result of the claim

[yabbaguy]

PMs aren't generating e-mail notifications at the moment, FYI.

[yabbaguy]

To Paltry:

Why exactly [is WIFOM necessary]? As I said, I'm not familiar with mass claiming personally.

Setup speculation is mod WIFOM, pretty much. It's not so much a matter of Azelf-guessing, just guessing what would be right for any mod to properly balance the game. There's a gray area, it's not like if I'm wrong that the mod imbalanced the game, but it's just a matter of likelihood. That's why you have to weigh the possibilities like I did.

Do you disagree that Deer was not a good choice to investigate?

I would expect Thief to find Deer even nominally scummy, which I don't think he did once at all. If he's aiming at Mafia (tracking an SK kill is shooting fish in a barrel), then there is merit in going for someone they would perceive as hardly scummy. Frankly though, if you don't even find them scummy at all, it's wasteful if he's Town, and again, while I may be wrong, he could be Mafia-aligned.

---

Unsight:

"I think, while I'll admit my opinion probably was a tad misguided or naive"

Maybe it isn't. It's not scummy, but I'm really uncertain. I am wishy-washy. You are right.

I have problems that you claim that I should have been more vigorous on this statement, when I think that continuously insisting to the contrary that we shouldn't claim would be anti-town. Cooperation is pro-town.

"I still think this is a mistake and will not change my mind, but I'll cave."

"I still think" IS NOT a wishy washy phrase. If anything, I'm still taking a firm stance against it.

I haven't thought Mafia from a PR claim before, but Tracker is one of those roles that really could go either way, and being wrong about the opinion and being wrong to even start the opinion is not the same thing. Whether I have in the past or not should not be an issue, so I don't get why the answer is so critical.

I want to hear it from Vibe unless more protest. I actually have little idea ever since he Unvoted Thief where he stands.

---

Rereading now. My next two posts, in some order, will be me claiming or posting a rehash of thoughts.

[yabbaguy]

Ladies and gentlemen, the moment you've all been waiting hardly that long for.

It's...

*cheering*

And now, absolute silence. It's time for our feature presentation.

Chevre (CHEV) -??
MrSandman (SAND) -> sorasgoof (SORA)
PaltryExcuse (PALT) -> Deer (DEER) ??
Pie_is_good (PIIG) -> Elias_the_thief (ELIA) ?
Red Star (STAR)
Thief (THIF) ?---
Unsight (UNSI) -> Dr. Cyanide (CYAN) ??
VibeBox (VIBE) -??

DEAD:
Super Smash Bros. Fan (SSBF) -> Jag Johan (JAJO)
RealityFan (REAL) -> Cuetlachtli (CUET)
Empking (EMPK)

Ugh. Can't do post numbers. Meanwhile (?) = questionable and (-) = scummy

--DAY 1--
STAR begins the game with a survey questions. I actually am extremely dumb, this isn't RQS, it's not quite the format that it usually is. Notice though, by my count, 4 people didn't answer initially.
ELIA then goes on to vote me over "thinking like scum". That in itself isn't correct. (?)
VIBE decides to cross-defend against EMPK's points on me. ***Why?***
CHEV idly agrees with suspicions "If yabbaguy wouldn't have answered the questions and said that, I would have understood his response better." Doing this without voting strikes me as fencesitting on someone's alignment. (-)
CYAN mid-to-bottom of page 2 votes EMPK for generally nonsensical reasoning. (?)
STAR goes for two FOS' on CYAN and myself for rather minimal reasons, neither of which particularly strike me as good. This is actually a curious relation, is his reasoning on Cyanide perhaps distancing? (?)
STAR then declares his vote to be a pressure vote. Not sure what to make of that.
VIBE is doing a very large amount of common sense instillation in the players by page 2, by that, I mean "well he could easily be town because [this]". It's a rather abundant behavior, and I start to get the sense it's informed. (-)
THIF comes out with a case on me. It's bad at minimum, but this alone isn't scummy. Fine.
VIBE comes to white knight me against THIF with a comment about his case on me. More of the same.
THIF talks to VIBE almost as if in conversation whilst putting another bad point on me. Very interesting. (?)
VIBE puts an FOS on THIF to conclude page 4. Feels weak. (?)
DEER pops in just to reaffirm his case with nothing behind it. (?)
THIF shamelessly wagons JAJO. ***Why?***
VIBE mentions "Frankly I was so frustrated with the lack of activity in this game it was hard for me to even want to come to the thread, let alone post." Contrived if you ask me. (?)
THIF votes CYAN. He was V/LA, but claimed he has reasoning come page 8. Still didn't make any sense to me. (?)
CHEV posts a rehash of thoughts. As someone said, they all have the words "leaning" or "neutral" in them. ***Why so uncertain?*** (?)
UNSI replaces page 9 and quickly grabs at the JAJO/SSBF vote.
PIIG comes out with an SSBF vote (but wrongly claims it's L-2!), but also is perhaps the first to throw a VIBE case out. I thought this was baloney at first, but seeing VIBE's interactions gives me an interesting new read on the game.
THIF supposedly caves here to PIIG's experience and wagons SSBF. Shifty. (-)
REAL hammers and off to N1 we go, very disappointed.

--DAY 2--
CHEV recklessly puts Thief at L-1. Now if they're both scum, this is curious, but buddies is plausible, anyway. (?)
THIF refuses to claim (policy scumpoints), then a terrible vote on VIBE. (-)
PIIG: cue the massclaim request. He'll go on to win it, but I think with THIF's resistance, I think it never should've happened.
THIF after much whining and complaining, comes clean with the tracker claim. Again, can appear as both alignments. DEER (until PALT replaced) was nominally scummy *to me*, but what still irks me is that THIF put him a ways down on the scumlist.
PIIG, I don't know if I told him this, but I just said that I believed he was Tracker, but it was alignment-null.
PALT is annoyed that I was wagonning recklessly. Really, I stated ages ago that I wanted the Day to end simply due to the low activity rate.
CHEV bases an unvote off the lack of a counterclaim. Just bizarre.
THIF- AWFUL, AWFUL deflection. Fine, UNSI finds me scummy. That doesn't mean she unvotes you. (-)
CHEV and PALT are in a heated debate over the leaning debacle I mentioned as I round the homestretch. CHEV: I think the point here is that you should've been sure of at least ONE person to call them one way or the other.

Overall:

Chevre- tilting scummy (not sure which). She very readily accepts bandwagons at very inopportune times, and is a tad overly conservative on her scumhunting.
MrSandman- blank read. I'd like to think he's pro-Town, esp. with sorasgoof's flake-out, but really, I haven't any idea.
PaltryExcuse (Deer)- Town. The only situation where he's scum is if Thief is Town and Mafia didn't use him. Other than that, despite Deer's lackadaisical behavior, I think he's been a good contributor himself.
Pie_is_Good- Town. Interesting to note that he's the first one to offer suspicions on Vibe, but he was pretty much begging and pleading for them. While again, he's suggested sub-optimal Town play, his heart truly is in the right place. *sniffle, audience awws*
Red Star- Not Mafia, but tilting SK. Pro-Town at times, but then pretty much fell off the map. Hasn't done much that is abrasive, but really, I can't find the tells anywhere else.
Thief- Mafia, still. He basically does every blatant suspicion-dodging trick one can think of.
Unsight- tilting Town. Cyanide was mildly scummy when he was in, and Unsight sounds like she knows what she's talking about, but also decided on SSBF rather quickly and over one point. No concrete scumtells from what I gather, really.
VibeBox- Mafia. Sounds extremely informed when he cross-defends other players. Some of my suspicions even hinge on him being scum, so he really should be first in line for a lynch.

[yabbaguy]

Barring a game-shaker from the claim:

Vote: VibeBox

[yabbaguy]

@Paltry: Thief's first vote on Vibe was on D2, shortly after his wagon. Interestingly, despite ample time, I don't think he ever elaborated on it. (unfortunately- we didn't ask him, IIRC. *groan*). I think it could easily be a scum distance.

@Pie: Fiiiiine. *hmph*



Chevre next.

@Vibe: Who would've been your choice if you had actually replied?

[yabbaguy]

@yabbaguy - What do you think of the Chevre wagon PaltryExcuse and Thief are pushing? That is, do you agree/disagree with their reasons for voting Chevre?

Wagon pushing, to me, means contriving cases. Is that what you meant?

Thief is contriving, seeing as he called Chevre's L-1 vote rubbish, and that's it. It could be a bus (can't tell entirely), so it's null to Chevre and more scumminess to Thief.

PaltryExcuse has points I agree with more, in the fact that Chevre hadn't taken one single clear stance throughout her reread. It still doesn't make me very, very confident in her scumminess, so it's a weak scumread, but I think Paltry has Town motives nevertheless.

@ZeroFang: Quotes or nothing happened. How was SSBF pro-Town, considering he laid out every anti-Town theory in the book? How did I slip, considering I can't? What do YOU perceive as useless for Thief?

[yabbaguy]

Flaking out is a speculative towntell because I'd imagine Town would be more liable to get bored and lose the motivation to post. But scum can flake out for any reason such as inactivity or busy lives, so that's why it's hardly accurate.

Indeed, it isn't terribly relevant.

[yabbaguy]

Quickpost: deadline in 4 days.

What time?

Be back when USA/ALG concludes.

[yabbaguy]

STOP CAPITALIZING THE Y IN YABBA. (AND I'M NOT BEING AGGRESSIVE, FFS.)

Yabba calling Soras' slot town is scummy as well, but this has already been pointed.

PaltryExcuse didn't say it was scummy. Can you at least try to disguise the fact that you're contriving your case on me?

Nonetheless, it really was nothing more than harmless speculation.

---

ZeroFang

While he believed Jag's previous actions and words had no bearing on him (it did), he also pointed out that you didn't really have a case against him. Voting without a case is scummy, and he believed you didn't have a case against him. You can agree or disagree with his reasoning, but this is a clear attempt at him trying to figure out if you were just trying to get him lynched or actually had a reason.

Read the context. I had a full blown case on him, more so Jag than him, granted, but it was completely laid out. I then abandoned the game for a day, and that was him going berserk.

See, if he had just said that you were slightly scummy, you could accuse him on being on the fence. He clearly shows how he's trying to rid the town of scum and he's not going to accuse you because he doesn't have enough evidence and he has bigger suspects. He was actively seeking scum out.

Could've been feigned. See, you're basing this off of behavior, which is important, yes, but can be feigned.

This shows clearly how he attempted to get people active and use our time effectively. The scum want you to waste time dilly dallying so you don't get any clear view of who's mafia. SSBF wanted us to use our time wisely and hunt scum instead of loping around, essentially waiting for the scum to kill us all off. The more we talk, the more text we have to work with, and the better our chances of outting scum will be.

But the fundamental thing is that he based (nearly) his entire scumlist off of that one parameter, activity. Such a null thing in this game considering that if lurking were a scumtell, we'd have caught 8 scum right now. Yet he used it as his primary scumhunting means. Anti-town. With Jag's scumminess, that's how I led myself to that conclusion.

With Jag, he just didn't understand the game or English well.

Someone speculated he had language difficulties, but I don't think this is confirmable. Newbiness, maybe, but I don't see the relevancy. Newbscum = scum.

I mean, I caught Jag out for two good scumpoints in this post (the RQS one I think is shit in retrospect), and SSBF was using crap rationale (Cyanide was V/LA, he wasn't lurking!) to come up with suspects. I don't think the towntells you came up with are terribly relevant.

I asked you about Thief to check for bussing, considering I know Thief's scumminess quite well. You pass.

---

Now, the reason I'm voting VibeBox is that I think interactions between him and the other players are highly transparent, in addition to scumminess he exhibits. What's irking me is that Thief is potentially a Mafia PR, and he might be worth ousting to protect whatever power we have left.

ISOing Vibe for interactions and to assess his scumminess. If Jalyn finishes their (gender?) thoughts in the interim, I may pop in just to respond before I post my findings. I think if he's as transparent as I make him out to be, we could merrily be on our way to ousting the whole Mafia team.

In a hurry and have to go, so I don't have the time to revise/edit this post. Please by all means be a grammar nazi if I'm vague anywhere.

[yabbaguy]

Vibe:

Here and here, cross-defends me from Emp.

Here protecting Cyanide from Emp. I conclude Unsight isn't Mafia.

This post is weak reasoning on Jag. That rationale is over playstyle. Good wagon, wrong reasons.

Here, Vibe talks to Thief almost as if in conversation. Again, defending me from Thief. Thanks, but you're also hopping right into the conclusion that I'm Town without considering my scumminess that's so apparent to everyone else. You're absolutely right, but you also sound absolutely informed.

I'm guilty of cheerleading posts like this one, but the particular tone of this one sounds insincere. Speculative, though, and I'm already batting .000 with my speculative tells this game.

This is a weak FOS on Thief. Could be distancing.

This is an explanation of why he lurked. A poor one, I've had the motivation to come in and post endlessly.

A false statement here, considering I don't think his FOS on Thief was a sincere one.

Sauciness here. Scum use it more than Town.

Unvotes here and squawks at me for L-1ing Thief. A different scenario, and hasn't mentioned Thief once since this post.

---

I also don't find a terrible amount of relations between Chevre and Vibe as I delve through, so I'm starting to veer away from Chevre being Mafia. Again, Chevre could be SK (Jalyn makes little sense for SK now), but I'd much rather have a Maf lynch, and I think Vibe and Thief would be the best bet. I think lynching Vibe, considering the relations between him and other players is what I'm most fascinated by, would be smartest. If I'm wrong, then I discard the Chevre-link theory, go for Thief, and then maybe her later.

And if the setup's 2/1/9 per chance, then my list is complete with 3 suspects listed. Considering how scarce the scumtells have been, I think that's plausible.

[yabbaguy]

Prod Paltry and Vibe regardless of how long ago their last post was, please.

Paltry, you need to claim NOW. The devil on my shoulder is nagging me.

Bah, deadline in 2 days. Unlikely that I can swing a Vibe wagon now, but presuming nobody switches, I'll hop to Chevre after MC concludes.

[yabbaguy]

Yeah, my devil's right on this one; Thief's cleared. And massclaim actually did something useful.

I'll have to think about this one overnight. That just threw a huge wrench in just about every theory I had.

@Jalyn:

"In this post..."- the third part is not OMGUS. Notice he hadn't stated one suspicion about me all game. Then I land second on the list. Baseless.

"Ugh..."- I hammered having full suspicions on both SSBF and Jag. My reasoning is fine, and aside from it resulting in a mislynch, Town suffered nothing from that hammer. Absolutely patently ridiculous that this keeps getting dragged out of the gutter.

Tracker < Cop. I thought there would be more than a Doctor on the Town side considering the PR had lesser weight. It made perfect sense to me, but on that, I deserve the insults for piss-poor setup analysis.

---

Unvote, Vote: Chevre

to hammer as promised. No time zone given, so I really haven't a choice here- it's just unnecessary to squeeze that extra day in the Day and risk the No Lynch on what really is a randomly timestamped deadline, if you get my drift.

On multiple counts, good night.

[yabbaguy]

Azelf

: Are the respective kills necessarily done by the same factions?

i.e. You've listed RealityFan and Jalyn as the first kill in their respective death scenes and Empking and Unsight as the second kill. Does that suggest that one faction/person killed RF/Jalyn and the other faction/person killed Emp/Unsight, or is that not necessarily true?

More later when I get home.

[yabbaguy]

Vibe: on RealityFan, I'm always looking for possible relationships, and I see hints of buddying between him and RedStar. Otherwise, he looks decently town.

She points out a suspicion here, and it's weak and based on relations between two people she KNOWS aren't scum. Now why would she tell Vibe this? Another mindspinner, but I'm thinking subliminal scum conversation.

Deer - I feel as though he sometimes tends to skim and doesn't answer to the best of his ability. Perk up, Deer! Neutral-barely-leaning-town.

Coaching here. But I look through Paltry, and he spent the entirety of D2 borderline tunnelvisioning on the "Vote Chevre for D2 Lynch!" campaign. It doesn't make one iota of sense why he would be buddies with Chevre. Thief's negative on him N1 amplifies it. I think Chevre's helping Town moreso here.

Going to Vibe again- he just has to talk, period. I want to hear who his scum suspects are.

Also- checking relations: this post had a bizarre, out of nowhere question.

@Chevre: How do you feel about Realityfan? Where would you put him on a 1-10 Scummy Scale, and why?

What prompted you to ask this question A) to Chevre B) about RealityFan? Am I missing something?

Inhibiting vote for now. And hey, Thief might have struck paydirt. Odds of 2/1/9 (1/1/4 now) v. 3/1/8 (2/1/3 now) setup? If Mafia was a duo, then Thief WILL have a definitive result. Vibe's likely Maf due to his informed-sounding demeanor.

If it's 2/1/3, we've already lost control of the vote. If we hit SK then, we actually lose straightaway in that scenario, since we're out of protection and the Mafia would knock the resulting 2/3 down to 2/2 and endgame.

[yabbaguy]

Thief getting blocked would yield "No Result" not "nowhere", right? An RB basically becomes an investigation screwer if the latter is true, and I frankly have no idea and no time to do research.

Pie, how do you manage to gleam 1/1/4? Also, aren't Zero and Paltry level on the objective scale if 2/1/3 is potentially possible?

[yabbaguy]

The reason I'm wildly puzzled is because Zero also struck me as a scum read:

I think Chevre's "scum-like tendencies" are nothing more than bad play. I'm in another game with her. This is a cross-game phenomena.

Idly dismisses Chevre's case.

VibeBox - I suspected him at first due to random voting and very aggressive play, but he cooled down post RV. I still suspect him a bit though. He was willing to hang sora (mr. sandman, now filled by me) solely based on inactivity. He also said he wanted pro town points, which I found odd.
ARF: His disappointment in the game and overall concern for the town leads me to believe his claim of vanilla townie.

We'd have to ultimately see Vibe flip first, but this is an interesting switch mid-read.

yabbaguy - He seems like he's just a very aggressive player in general and so I think a lot of his aggression is just his play style. However, he did slip up and use quite a bit of false logic to try and lynch people, so I'm not sure what to think.
ARF: He was quick to try and hammer people with little evidence/reasoning, and seems to be over-enthusiastic about this game. The latter is just an observation.

He states my aggressiveness outright, but as a nulltell. I still believe his accusations as to my hammer baseless, and I think he still has yet to elaborate on that.

Personally, I would have tracked yabba or VB. They've both been active throughout the game, and have both been unnecessarily aggressive at different points throughout the game.

Now aggressiveness is beginning to creep into scumtell territory.

I'm going to change my assessment of VibeBox, actually. After reading over his posts again, I'd put Vibe at the same suspicion/scum level as yabba for exactly the same reasons I suspect yabba.

False association, I think I'm being dragged under the bus with his scumbuddy.

I do believe I've explained my reason for voting Thief several times, and I've explained why It's really hard to believe his claim, yes?

Yes, but you're blocking out our thoughts that setup analysis just HAS to indicate that Thief is pro-Town. Town can't subsist without more than one PR.

Chevre's reread came whilst MrSandman was in the game and doing nothing, so she (understandably) indicated Neutral. Neither him nor sorasgoof really shake my scummy read of him.

Vibe's still rather certain. The fact that ZeroFang drew a blank is very, very puzzling for the reasons I laid out above.

[yabbaguy]

Are you on the assumption that you will be explicitly told "You receive No Result from your track" if you are Blocked, Thief? I'm concerned that your result is naive, but I frankly don't know what the norm is.

[yabbaguy]

Post tomorrow. Sorry, I thought I'd be posting today, but an outing which took me by surprise took me away from the computer. :\

[yabbaguy]

I'm

still

trying to see how Zero is Town. I mean, he's L-1'd in scummy fashion, doing it A) way too soon and B) without ISOing Chevre like he promised.

And what still burns a hole in my head is the amorphous scumtells (is aggressiveness a scumtell or just annoying?) and the fact that he rather transparently drops his scum vibes on (*ahem*) Vibe MID-READ.

Now, there's STILL an objective theory which is actually miles more plausible than a naive-result inducing RB: the Ninja. They've shown up in ONE Mini Normal before, but I wouldn't it past Azelf to put something oddball in the setup. We haven't seen evidence of a Blocker (I mean... c'mon, why didn't the CLAIMED TRACKER get Blocked?), so how do you balance a small scumteam against two other parties? Can they subsist off Goon/Goon? Are they three-manned? Or is there a powerrole of some sort that needs to be factored in?

I believe everyone was perfectly capable of submitting an action, and I just don't see what the other Mafia PR would be other than that. To make Mafia that weak would be awful. If Vibe flips a Mafia PR of any sort though, I'll have to reassess.

Frankly, Pie tilts scummy for me as well. He's full-blasters on Vibe (so am I, that's fine), but I also don't see him terribly trying to scumhunt; he seems complacent with blindly following Thief and accepting that Zero isn't an investigation-screwer. Add that to the inaccuracies Jalyn pointed out (the L-2 malarkey didn't help) and you've got yourself really interfering with the process of the game. SK?

It could be 2/1/3. I'm seeing scumminess from multiple players.

[yabbaguy]

Of all the points aiming at a potential Ninja, you go for the most minute, insignificant one. /:|

All I'm saying is that Azelf is capable of putting something screwy in there. This is just gathering from his unconventional modding style we've observed. *shrug*

[yabbaguy]

Vibe first, he's far more certain (talk, dammit!). That might actually be rather informative- if he comes up Mafia PR, all my comments of "Mafia's unbalanced blahblahblah" are probably going out the window.

It really could go either way. I swear there was a time in the past where 3/1/8 was the prevailing MN setup, but maybe it is 2/1/9. If Vibe flips Goon though, I'm going to have serious issues with continuing to believe that the Mafia is a plain 2-man team.

You're actually not in favor of a Vibe lynch, not even complacent. Whyyyyyyyyyy thefucknot?

[yabbaguy]

EBWOP: ...don't appear in favor or complacent with said lynch.

[yabbaguy]

There's really no motivation if I were scum of either faction to find more people scummy than necessary. Even a solitary Mafioso, I believe, could subsist of two mislynches, same for SK. I'm finding three people scummy: Vibe, Zero, and now you. I think a lot of it hinges on Vibe's flip- if he flips Goon, believe me, I

will

bring up the argument of what powerrole could POSSIBLY be left in the game. I'm having issues believing an RB, per se, exists (and there WAS a Mafia kill, to forego any Block would be wasteful). It just makes no sense. If he does flip PR, that's Another Story. *rimshot, groan*

I suppose the burning question on everyone's minds is why in blazes I keep screaming "Mafia shenanigans" every time someone's merrily on their way to being confirmed. The reason why is because I haven't seen outright evidence of what the last Mafia PR is. As long as that's the case, it's anyone's guess, and to ignore it is criminal. That's why I refuse to cut options out of my pool so easily, not because I'm looking for mislynches, but because I hate falling into setup traps that could cause the game to be out of reach for Town.

Re: following Thief, no, I'm saying that when Thief claimed a negative on Zero, you didn't even dabble into the possibility of what it could mean (and that's what you bring up in your last paragraph, too). Especially if Vibe flips Mafia, there's no damned way you're Mafia yourself, so all this malarkey about me wanting to suddenly make you the D3 lynch is patently absurd.

Also, I knew Ninja off-hand. Possible doesn't always stop where your naivete starts. That has nothing to do with it.

Meanwhile, can't wait to

finally

hear something from Vibe's slot.

[yabbaguy]

...Paltry's post. Yowza.

Fundamental problem with your question, Paltry, we

did

have a Mafia kill. Whoever was killing was around. Vibe picked up the prod PM, so he clearly is. You don't, as Mafia, kill and then waste a block with two antagonizing powerroles in play.

I asked the question to Azelf simply to leave the route of NK analysis open. I attempted it afterwards, but that didn't yield anything, so I gave up on it.

[yabbaguy]

No, Pie I think the laziness also shows in the way you wagonned on Chevre as well (weaseling your way on board). Like:

ISO-12:

2) Chevre lynch wouldn't make me cry - I recall being suspicious of her day 1 for something or another.

Soft suspicion. Granted, ISO-1 had a suspicion, but only "shirking attention" was listed.

ISO-19:

Speaking of which, does anyone else find it odd that Chevre chose Unsight over ZeroSand?

I wouldn't expect you to be the sort to ask before casting suspicion.

and then ISO-21 the vote.

Generically, you've basically had an attitude of idly pointing fingers in the third-person "Yeah, he's not doing favors, she's scummy for this" without doing a massive amount of questioning. Yes there's some, but it's mostly first-person anecdotes laid down idly, save for Vibe who you've been assured about all along and have pursued a bit more. But you didn't really question him either, maybe you questioned us about "C'mon, why ain't he scummy?", but never him. Suggests a lack of *serious* scumhunting that could potentially get you killed. Yes, we look at your ISO and say, "ooh, big posts, some egotism even", but there's less to it than meets the eye.

I cant' believe it took me a while to deduce this, but Zero being *SK* Ninja is patently absurd, it ain't Paltry, Vibe suggests Mafia more, it ain't Thief, and it sure as hell ain't me. You are the only suspect. Process of Elimination, you've done it again!

@Thief: Click.

[yabbaguy]

@Pie: Yeah, but I still don't think it was committal wording. Even a vote doesn't make it entirely strong, your wording was still along the lines of "yeah kinda", "yeah maybe", and just riding the coattails of Paltry's case.

On the other hand, I at least tried to weigh the possibilities. And that "outright defense" you're claiming is just me weighing the possibilities of Chevre-Vibe being buddied (granted, I misweighed them, I missed that blatantly random question from Vibe -> Chevre that tipped me off)

@Thief: AH. We're snagging on terminology here:

Yabba is most likely the Serial Killer which would explain his scumminess yet scumhunting and lack of connections with Chevre.

But we have to lynch scum today.

And when I said, no incentive "if I'm scum", Thief thought I slipped by saying "LOOK WORLD, I'M MAFIA!"

No, I've always used scum as a supercategory of Mafia and SK. When I made this post:

Chevre- tilting scummy (not sure which). She very readily accepts bandwagons at very inopportune times, and is a tad overly conservative on her scumhunting.
MrSandman- blank read. I'd like to think he's pro-Town, esp. with sorasgoof's flake-out, but really, I haven't any idea.
PaltryExcuse (Deer)- Town. The only situation where he's scum is if Thief is Town and Mafia didn't use him. Other than that, despite Deer's lackadaisical behavior, I think he's been a good contributor himself.
Pie_is_Good- Town. Interesting to note that he's the first one to offer suspicions on Vibe, but he was pretty much begging and pleading for them. While again, he's suggested sub-optimal Town play, his heart truly is in the right place. *sniffle, audience awws*
Red Star- Not Mafia, but tilting SK. Pro-Town at times, but then pretty much fell off the map. Hasn't done much that is abrasive, but really, I can't find the tells anywhere else.
Thief- Mafia, still. He basically does every blatant suspicion-dodging trick one can think of.
Unsight- tilting Town. Cyanide was mildly scummy when he was in, and Unsight sounds like she knows what she's talking about, but also decided on SSBF rather quickly and over one point. No concrete scumtells from what I gather, really.
VibeBox- Mafia. Sounds extremely informed when he cross-defends other players. Some of my suspicions even hinge on him being scum, so he really should be first in line for a lynch.

Notice how I call Vibe Mafia and Chevre "scummy- not sure which".

I think that's the more universally accepted terminology, besides.

[yabbaguy]

Pie, unless the denominator's low as well, I only count two remarks you made prior to Paltry's post:

-the one on your reread "weak scumread"
-the "I wouldn't cry about Chevre's lynch" remark

I'm having the fact issue as well.

Waffly wording can come from SK as well. It's as simple as that. I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER called you Mafia. If I did, well, I'm still more sure about Vibe, but I'd be considering voting you. The fact you keep twisting it into that is ridiculous.

The pool of SKs is objectively you or me Pie (unless, y'know, we have SK Ninjas ). If I'm lying, I'm SK. There is a

0% chance I'm Mafia

, so the fact you lot are voting me is absolutely absurd. We need a Mafia lynch.

Vote: VibeBox

Please, everyone. I implore you. I am about to be lynched based on suboptimal strategy (notwithstanding flawed reads), and I would be absolutely aggravated if I am. Are you forgetting how scummy Vibe was at the outset? He's the Mafia. I'm not bussing. I CANNOT be Mafia.

[yabbaguy]

To be clear:

Pie- my only plausible SK suspect remaining. Absolutely not Mafia.
Paltry- confirmed town
Thief- confirmed town
Vibe- likely Mafia, only the slimmest of SK probabilities.
Zero- possibly Mafia (planning on analyzing after Vibe's flip). SK Ninja is abNormal.

[yabbaguy]

@Chevre: How do you feel about Realityfan? Where would you put him on a 1-10 Scummy Scale, and why?

A question out of nowhere from the early game. That's BLATANT public scum discussion.

[yabbaguy]

God, I hope Paltry is seeing the simulpost alarms.

[yabbaguy]

See 446, Pie.

[yabbaguy]

Also- no evidence of Mafia PRs, Pie. Do you think the scumteam could subsist off two Goons?

[yabbaguy]

Mm, right. I could be Mafia calling Pie SK from an outsider vantage.

But since my SK pool is narrowed between Pie and myself, and Pie finds me

not SK

(leaning Mafia, he says), his correct move would be to realize "I'm Town, and therefore yabb's run out of plausible SK mislynches and must be SK". He didn't.

He's SK

.

The outsiders and observers have a different vantage, yes. Pie, on the other hand, should've straightaway said I was SK as Town.

[yabbaguy]

I guessed it was 2/1/9 and whiffed. I went for Thief also because I absolutely didn't want to get tracked. If it was 2/1/9, it would've been my win. We would've been at 2/1/1, and Town would be forced to No Lynch infinitely and hope for a cross-kill that would never come. Nobody would have an outright incentive other than spite to lynch me.

I'm assuming though that I got blocked considering Thief was the kill, and Pie probably was sure of me being SK at that point. Not gonna take that too personally. But dammit, Unsight was an absolute FUCKING RIDICULOUS FUCKING FUCKING BULLSHIT blunder. I knew Jalyn was working her wonders, but I should've at least opted for Paltry, a target of the tracker! And how different things would have been!

Gah. I thought Serial Killer was going to be easy. All I had to do was just act pro-Town and I would've never gotten killed at Night and never been lynched. Yet I managed to come under so much suspicion. I think towards the end, I had no inhibitions about shameless setup mindscrewing (Ninja was quite ridiculous, let's be frank), but I'll never know why I was suspicious at the outset.

Y'know, Vibe didn't do us any favors. It was a well-picked mislynch by Pie. SSBF/Jag screwed us up, too, I genuinely thought he was Mafia. I think my play as SK was very poor, but I attained a secondary objective- my lynch purity stays intact for quite a run of games now. I think I'm on 13 in a row right now.

[yabbaguy]

Yup. Pie did the Numa Numa dance to distract me, says Azelf.

IRL, I'd have yawned and moved on.

[yabbaguy]

Actually, with the Blocker, it wouldn't have been straightforward victory.

I should've killed Paltry, bottom line.

[yabbaguy]

One other thing: on multiple occasions, I came close to posting something like: "why would SK kill EmpKing or Unsight?"

That would have been a categorical disaster.

@Pie: I seriously think your perspective was skewed, how could you find me

Mafia

of all things when my SK suspect list was clearly not you? I should've also reckoned you would be Mafia, but I couldn't take the chance of killing you if, say, you were the only Mafioso remaining in the game.

@Azelf: Thanks overall for putting up with the replacement requests.

Tip: Keep a tight leash and prod quickly. If you let players go lurking for 5 days, you run the risk of having player slots that are doing nothing

and you have no idea why

. If you keep tabs on players by prodding frequently, you can swiftly decide when players' activity is inadequate and replace quickly. That encourages posting at a much more frequent rate and certainly decreases the chance you'll have to essentially replace the whole field of players.

[yabbaguy]

Also, massclaim was anti-Town. If that wasn't a Doctor, the two kills would've almost assuredly wiped out all the Town's power. And considering how the scumhunting itself only nailed one scum, well... yeah.

I still think it's inadvisable,

especially

with two killers, not the other way around. It saved a mislynch, though, I have to admit.

[yabbaguy]

I permit Pie's brand of cryptography in my games, as it's detectable. Blatantly up and using one of those obnoxious cipher websites which you need a passkey to decode is... blatantly illegal.

Can we see the whole list of actions? I'm really stumped who Pie swung for as Blocker N2 considering a Tracker claim was on the table. An SK suspect?

[yabbaguy]

Pie didn't target anyone Night 2. He didn't get the night action in.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Good choice N1 though- clearly fate or whoever/whatever you deem holy wanted me to die.

And what do you mean, you didn't choose who did it? Did Azelf select it randomly? /:|

[yabbaguy]

Sure.

What I don't like is that it's a randomness game when the Mafia kill is in a forced rotation. Thief tracked on the basis that the least scummy would be chosen, something I found rather plausible no matter how many times I screamed Mafia Tracker. With that revelation though, his reasoning is pointless in retrospect.

[yabbaguy]

The "in addition" thing does explain it in this case, but that's actually not a given, Zero.