Mini 964: Another Story - Over!

[Chevre]

It is your turn to claim. You're going first.

[yabbaguy]

Advertising this game in signature.

[Thief]

Outing any investigator with one, unverifiable investigation is a HUGE mistake.

Thief is a surefire bet.

Vote: Thief

That's pretty hilarious. You've made me laugh, so I'll give you your *facepalm*:

Tracker, Deer went nowhere N1.

You did a good job wagoning me scum. Pie might be scum off the wagon, but he's probably bussing Vibe for his terrible postings anyway so my vote is fine where it is.

[Unsight]

Thief, what does that mean?

[yabbaguy]

What I'm seesawing on is the possibility that Thief is a Mafia Tracker. If he's a Town Tracker, that suggests a VERY HIGH Town weight (in quantity, likely) already in powerroles minus the Investigative-class role. Seeing as, having heard no dissenting opinions on the matter, we are likely in a 3-party setup, I think Town would need a stronger role than just a tracker, whose scumhunting capabilities will prob hit Town more than Mafia. I don't see why it would exist here.

I think a Mafia Tracker- which can flush out the Town PRs and the SK, have a much greater probability of existing. It sounds like the Mafia's way of coping with the multiple threats is early detection- a Tracker's job. It might as well be a Rolecop if my deduction checks out.

Maf Goon is also possible- but that leads to the same conclusion, so that's irrelevant. It basically boils down to how plausible a Town Tracker is.

That's my thought. I'm also curious why Deer was the target.

[yabbaguy]

Whoops. I really need to start double-checking my

copypasta

.

I'm using that word from now on. I don't care if it's a typo or not.

Am I wrong here? I know, I'm dabbling into setup speculation, but I really want to see how plausible that claim is. I think it's more pro-Mafia at this point, esp. if Mafia only kill with one person. (thus if Tracker targets wrong person, they get a blank on a capable-of-killing Mafioso)

[Thief]

If lurker-slot Deer was scum he definitely would have sent in the kill for the team.

I'm one step ahead of the scum-team at night.

-Thief in the night

[yabbaguy]

Vibebox
Chevre
Yabba
Red Star
Thief

Deer

RealityFan
Unsight
Pie

This is your most recent list, scummiest at the top, towniest at the bottom. Why did you track the one halfway down the list?

More direct: why's Deer potentially scummy?

[Azelf]

PaltryExecuse

replaces

Deer

, effective immediately.

[PaltryExcuse]

Hey yo. Friendly neighbourhood replacement for Deer. I'll catch up as soon as I can.

[PaltryExcuse]

Day 1 --

The VibeBox vs. Empking battle feels very much town vs. town. (EDIT: Actually, the conversation gives me a better feeling on VibeBox than the one who we now know is town.)
I entirely get the attack on Jag Johan. I had started writing up a small analysis on the matter only to learn he was the Day 1 lynch and town after looking back to Page 1. Guh.

Thief’s attack on Yabba leaves much to be desired. :S To me, it seems he is isolating yabba in order to find scumminess rather than reading the game and coming across it.

Where did Chevre go? Chevre disappeared after putting in their RVS vote, and then their returning post is… mediocre… at best.

When SSBF replaces in, the game really kicks off.
Thief accuses Mr. Sandman of tunnelling with a weak case when defending himself… something I was finding earlier when Thief was attacking Yabba. If it’s scummy for Mr. Sandman, it has got to be scummy for Thief. A bit of scum seeing themselves in someone else? Either way, I feel Mr. Sandman was on the right track with this one.

This post is ridiculous. You search for ‘fence sitting’ in the responses to RedStar’s RQ’s. I implore EVERYONE to read Chevre’s opinions on the players in the game. There are TONS of ‘Neutral-leanings’. That is true fence sitting IMHO. On this post alone I’d be willing to lynch Chevre. Compare Chevre’s ‘leaning-scum’ feel on Thief to how sure Chevre is later on here when comparing him to SSBF.

Unsight’s ISO 1 gives me good feelings.

Neither Thief’s presumed L-1 vote nor yabbaguy’s presumed hammer give me good feelings.
For Thief, it is the sucking up to Pie_is_good. Pie’s SSBF comments are valid, however Unsight’s and the previous case made by VibeBox on Jag are much stronger and is the real reason I’d have been okay with a Jag lynch. The fact he admits to being on a fail wagon (fail wagon = bad case no?) because Pie says so is more sucking up. It was, IMO, Thief’s only independent action thus far and he was willing to give it up so easily.
For Yabba, it is the fact he admits he supports wagons to get a lynch. A.k.a., less sticking to his guns and more playing follow the leader.

Day 1 Suspicions --

Chevre: Seriously, wow. Chevre’s uninformative post after disappearing for awhile is subpar. Pie’s comments on Chevre were spot on about their sudden response to being called out as lurking. Their analysis post still bothers me greatly. Overall, I’m betting scum.

Yabbaguy: Although I doubt, highly, that Thief and Yabba are both scum, his ‘hammer’ vote post (though not actually a hammer) is ucky. IIRC correctly he’s been on the major wagons late and been elsewhere little. This bandwagonning is a sign of scum IMHO.

Thief: The interaction with Mr. Sandman and the vote against are two major points against him. I have trouble seeing his perspective on anything, and can only attribute that to a scum perspective. However, what bothers me is my other two scum reads have both been either attacked by or are attacking Thief. I could attribute this to early game bussing though, and Thief still reads scummy to me.

---

I'll have more up later (a.k.a. reading Day 2), hopefully today, but it might be tomorrow.

---

@Mod: Just a suggestion. Though I'm not the most experience modder (I have one whole game to my credit... woo) I try to put a votecount at least every day, or on every page. Just an idea for clarity's and re-reading sake (and vote analysis ).

[offtopic]@Yabba: My word processor wants to autofix your name to Cabbage and it made laugh. I am tempted to call you Cabbage for the remainder of the game.[/offtopic]

[Pie_is_good]

Re: Thief - The tracker claim does nothing to incur scumminess in my eyes, and Deer/Paltry seems like a reasonable target. I'm as anti-Thiefwagon as ever. The Yabbinator's analysis isn't faulty per se, but I wouldn't say it turns the tracker claim into a mark

against

Thief.

Paltry -
1) For the sake of thoroughness, can you confirm/deny that you went nowhere night 1?
2) Chevre lynch wouldn't make me cry - I recall being suspicious of her day 1 for something or another. But seriously, how is nobody feeling anything scummy from ...

Vibebox -

Not really, no. Frankly I thought it was sloppy and poorly presented. I discussed it as seriously as I did because I was hoping that by discussing it heavily, and getting others to do so I could get a nearly universally abandoned game going, and possibly generate discussion of real value.

(Context: this is how Vibebox felt about RedStar's ISO post). So, basically - and correct me if I'm wrong here - Vibebox is saying he deliberately misrepresented his opinions on Red Star's post because he thought an opinon

other than his own

would be more useful for garnering discussion. How is this not setting off alarm bells for anybody else? Throw me a frickin' bone here.

[yabbaguy]

See avatar for lowercase username PSA, please. Also, Chevre's female, everyone else and mod is male, if I recall correctly.

Bandwagonning, Paltry, I don't see how that's a tell when I was suspicious, IIRC, of Jag/SSBF and Thief from the get go. I refuse to believe I was accelerating the Day by wagonning like that, yes, I was close to bringing the Day to an end, but did not feel like a wagon would deprive us of valuable discussion time. I hopped on the major wagons yes, but with a good case on both, I thought.

Piesypoo, I don't even regard your Vibe tell as anti-town. Wanting to generate discussion from anything is a sign of pro-Town resourcefulness, and wanting to set off fireworks at every opportunity possible should be rewarded. (Yeah, yeah, I've used the pyrotechnics metaphor multiple times already, but it's true, we need more razzle-dazzle in this game, or nobody else is gonna flock in to replace.)

Also, if you think Thief's tracker claim isn't scummy, that does makes my analysis faulty (in other words: a scumtell makes someone more likely to be scum. I contest tracker here is more likely to be scum). I'm confused.

[PaltryExcuse]

Day 2 -

The bandwagon of Thief:
Unsight, yABBAGUY, VibeBox & Chevre (oh lookie here!) all come off rather bad. L-2 in the first three posts? L-1 on the first page? There was no case / questions for Thief just votes. I’d expect even a reference to previous cases or asking him to explain certain actions but there was just votes. Unsight surprised me after his case on Jag being so thorough and just opening up the day with a vote with no explanation. The other three surprised me more due to the speed and willingness to set-up a quick lynch. (yabbaguy less here as he was vote #2)

@All (especially Unsight): Why do you find Thief scummy?
@Chevre: Who beyond Thief do you find scummy? Seeing as you’re convinced Thief is scum, who are his buddies (and why)?

With the likely possibility of an SK, mass-claiming seems like a good idea. SK and Mafia have to be consistent with their claims and any discrepancies can be caught. Considering we’re one bad day and night from a possible 3-2-1 scenario, we need people to be accountable for their actions. With two killing roles, any information gleaned the previous night is vital IMO. Be forwarned… I’ve never participated in a mass claim before so this is all speculative. From what I do know, popcorning is an effective and easy way of doing it.

Back on track, although Thief was scummy day 1 the uber-wagon that has been built is not pretty.
Tl;dr - The wagon is scummy. (I mean, Chevre is there.)

This post by yabba throws out way too much WIFOM for my liking. And this post and the response made me rethink things on VibeBox. In my experience, mindless and aimless discussion actually allows the mafia to hide while being active. Putting in ‘their two cents’ while actually providing nothing or just distracting from the issue at hand.

@VibeBox: What beyond discussion were you hoping to gain? As in, what in RedStar’s posting could have been insightful?

Thief’s claim:
If we’re mass claiming, I’ll save my comments for later as his claim directly involves yours truly.

However, I don’t like yabb’s instant assertion that he is a Mafia Tracker. If an SK exists Tracker is a fine role for town, and the only SK-mini I’ve ever played had two Macho Docs and a weakened version of a Tracker. A tracker sounds plausible to me and the role itself is not as weak as he’s making it.

Either way, this all pales in comparison to Chevre:
VOTE: Chevre

---

Bandwagonning, Paltry, I don't see how that's a tell when I was suspicious, IIRC, of Jag/SSBF and Thief from the get go. I refuse to believe I was accelerating the Day by wagonning like that, yes, I was close to bringing the Day to an end, but did not feel like a wagon would deprive us of valuable discussion time. I hopped on the major wagons yes, but with a good case on both, I thought.

It’s not your bandwagonning alone that makes you suspicious. Your presumed hammer vote had poor reasoning and revealed something of your voting style in this game. When a wagon was dying, you left. Not because you didn’t think your target wasn’t scummy anymore, but because you couldn’t convince people to join it? You are bandwagonning for the sake of looking like everyone else. It’s not a good thing. I don’t understand why you weren’t pushing your stronger scum read over anything else.

---

Note to Thief about your preferred claiming order: RealityFan is dead, and Mr. Sandman is alive (and being replaced). Does that change your order?

@Mod: Vote count, deadline and maybe prods to let everyone know the site is back?

[Thief]

Finally another good case and an active slot.

So....... we have Chevre and Vibe, just one more scum to go. I still think it is Yabba-this whole "LOL SCUM TRACKER!" bs hes pushing plus trying to paint my Deer track as somehow "scum-motivated" makes me sure. He wants me lynched so he doesn't have to deal with me at night (no roleblocker I suppose?)

I'll respond to him though only for kicks:
I didn't track my top suspect because it was very unlikely my top suspect would be chosen to send the kill. If Deer's slot was scum you can be damn sure scum would've used him to send in the kill since no one had made even a sideways glance at Deer.

[Unsight]

So I thought Thief was saying Deer was a Tracker earlier and I was getting confused.

Thief is still scummy but I'm really not liking Yabba's "let's lynch him anyway" attitude.

Yabba, do you normally go all gung-ho on lynching claimed PR's?

I'll be back tomorrow after a goodnight's sleep and after I've reread the last posts more closely.

[Chevre]

Unvote: Thief

, but

FoS: Thief

yabbaguy has already pointed out that your Tracker target makes little sense, but since there has been no counterclaim yet, I'm unvoting you.

[Pie_is_good]

Piesypoo, I don't even regard your Vibe tell as anti-town. Wanting to generate discussion from anything is a sign of pro-Town resourcefulness, and wanting to set off fireworks at every opportunity possible should be rewarded. (Yeah, yeah, I've used the pyrotechnics metaphor multiple times already, but it's true, we need more razzle-dazzle in this game, or nobody else is gonna flock in to replace.)

Sure, wanting to generate discussion is protown. But that's not what I'm accusing VB of.

There's an implicit assumption in VB's defense that calling Red Star out for worthless posting wouldn't have stimulated discussion. There's also an assumption that Red Star's ISOs were more productive than anything VB himself could come up with.

Let me ask you (everyone) - when you're town and you read posts that seem like worthless fluff, what do you do? Everyone I've seen, including myself, either ignores them or (less commonly) calls the posting out in thread. When has the thought of misrepresenting your opinions in the name of activity ever even crossed your mind?

I think that VB, as scum, read Red Star's posts, rejected the option of ignoring it (not much else was going on; it would seem like lurking) and rejected the option of calling Red Star out or providing alternate content (would stick his neck out too much) and so settled on casting the post as material content.

Also, if you think Thief's tracker claim isn't scummy, that does makes my analysis faulty (in other words: a scumtell makes someone more likely to be scum. I contest tracker here is more likely to be scum). I'm confused.

Well, I disagree that tracker is *more likely* to be scum. I agree with you that scum tracker is a distinct possibility, and so even if Thief's tracker ability is confirmed I won't consider him cleared. But like I said, I'm not taking it as a strike against him.

More later.

[Pie_is_good]

Anyways ... (almost) everyone here is in support of massclaim; I'd say it's about time to start. Popcorn is fine with me. Thief, as the honorary first claimant, can decide who continues.

[PaltryExcuse]

Unvote: Thief

, but

FoS: Thief

yabbaguy has already pointed out that your Tracker target makes little sense, but since there has been no counterclaim yet, I'm unvoting you.

This is a mini, there isn't necessarily going to BE a tracker CC (there might not be a tracker), and even if there is one it's difficult to assess whether or not there is two (but for balancing purposes I doubt two town trackers). Long story short: if you believe he is scum, you should have your vote on him. Since the wagon is losing a bit of steam, are you not as gung ho?

Either way, who else do you believe is scum?

---

@Pie: If I understand where you're coming from: Scum would want to pursue an aimless lead (aka RedStar's ISO) in order to distract? That's what I see as scummy about the Vibe comment.

@All: Are we continuing with a mass claim? If so, the popcorn method (the person who claims chooses the next to claim and so on) is the only one I really know of (beyond a trusted / confirmed town member choosing an order).

[yabbaguy]

This post by yabba throws out way too much WIFOM for my liking.

This is pretty much the territory you have to delve into if you're going to figure out whether or not massclaiming is right.

Your presumed hammer vote had poor reasoning

How? You seem to be, for whatever reason, upset at the fact that my perceived objective was just to wagon for the sake of ending the Day. You're partially correct, I was sure (clearly wrong now) that my top 2 were scum, and could afford a lynch on either, hence why I seesawed between the two. I didn't see a reason why D1 should've continued beyond then, and I think if anything, I should be given a medal for putting an end to an overly-drawn out Day. It's not accelerating the Day (I agree, a scumtell) if town apathy has set in like it did.

I was wagonning recklessly, but I wanted either one of my suspects lynched, and could not stand to see D1 go on any longer.

---

I think, while I'll admit my opinion probably was a tad misguided or naive, that it's absolutely fair game for me to dispute claims on the basis of game balance if I think one alignment is more likely to be the case over another for a certain role. Yes, I'm doing a lot of setup probing (and therefore speculations into WIFOM territory), but I think it's pretty much what one has to do in order to determine the true nature of players' claims and optimal strategy.

@Unsight, Thief, and Paltry: Why is it wrong to speculate about his alignment the way I did?

Unvoting until massclaim finishes. I still think this is a mistake and will not change my mind, but I'll cave. I'm also starting to have fears that I'm tunnelvisioning, which I think may be a result of my mind being bogged down by the mass apathy that ensued D1.

Unvote

[Chevre]

This is a mini, there isn't necessarily going to BE a tracker CC (there might not be a tracker), and even if there is one it's difficult to assess whether or not there is two (but for balancing purposes I doubt two town trackers). Long story short: if you believe he is scum, you should have your vote on him. Since the wagon is losing a bit of steam, are you not as gung ho?

Either way, who else do you believe is scum?

His wagon isn't losing steam, yabbaguy and pie are the only ones who have talked about it and neither has really completely believed or discredited the claim. I unvoted because it's a power role claim, which is important enough for me to unvote. My other top suspect would be Red Star/replacement.

I'm up for massclaim.

[yabbaguy]

EBWOP

I still think this is a mistake and will not change my mind

as a result of the claim

[Azelf]

@PaltryExecuse: I have zero whole games to my credit. OH YEAH!
I try to do so to, but if a day's votecount would be exactly the same as the last day's, I usually don't see the point.

Deadline is 6-27-2010.

Have fun!

But I did find issue with one thing. If someone unaware that the site was back was able to receive a prod alerting them that the site was back, wouldn't the prod become meaningless?

(I consider it unlikely that anybody's turned on the "send me an e-mail when I get PMd" feature)

Chevre

- PaltryExcuse (

L-4

)

Thief

- Unsight (

L-4

)

Vibebox

- Pie_is_good, Thief (

L-3

)

Not voting

- Chevre, MrSandman, Red Star, Vibebox, yabbaguy

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[yabbaguy]

PMs aren't generating e-mail notifications at the moment, FYI.