Open 212--Hard Boiled Mafia (Game Over)

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

Hoping for a quicklynch?

No counter-claim or cross-vote from me. I need to review the game, particularly the interactions between chauchaudotcom and semioldguy. I voiced the suspicion earlier that they were scum busing, and it's a more likely possibility now.

@ havingfitz: It would be nice if you responded to my last post, in which I refuted your case on me. I say again: your claim of OMGUS on you is laughable, and you have thus far ignored my case on you. If you want anyone to give your vote credence, I suggest that you respond properly.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

EBTWODB: I appreciate the unvote, but remember, this technically isn't lylo. Confucius still has a chance to hit scum, and besides, there aren't enough scum to pile on and lynch.

[farside22]

No counter claim from me either. I want to read Deer/pitt in iso myself. As well as semi and get some clues. Will hopefully have something more specific by tomorrow.

[chauchaudotcom]

So most likely, the Psychologist either did not have a useful result (due to not investigating, or investigating either McGriddle or BioHazard), or had a "no potential to kill" result, which is the equivalent of an innocent result.

Hmm...I completely forgot about the fact that he may have investigated one of the deceased. I don't think he investigated Bio, because Bio wasn't on Deer's suspect list, but McG is actually a high possibility. So I need to look back on fitz as well.

I need to review the game, particularly the interactions between chauchaudotcom and semioldguy. I voiced the suspicion earlier that they were scum busing, and it's a more likely possibility now.

Your distancing reference was between me and fitz, not me and semi. Furthermore you went as far as to claim:

I'm currently undecided on CC.com, it will depend on my read of semioldguy. If he looks scummy, CC.com will look better, and vice versa.

So why the sudden change of stance?

---

Catching up

Orto - Nothing. I got nothing.
Hito - Felt that semi was town.

As their posts are little and have little, there's not much to go on. Semi doesn't really mention either much.

Farside - Overall farside's interactions with semi don't strike me as particularly suspicious. The one thing that did catch my attention was during my exchange with semi I brought up farside's lack of follow on her posts as well and semi defended her whilst continuing to insist that I was scum for the same reason. Felt like possible buddying to me.

Gamer - Random voted Semi. Included semi as one of the suspects for the quick wagon despite the fact that semi's vote was random. Possible early distancing.
Fitz - I questioned fitz about his stance on semi but aside from saying that nothing stuck out to him he doesn't comment on semi again. On a side note tho, if MMM flips scum I'd say Fitz is town.

So based off interactions with semi I'd have to rate my suspect list as follows:

1st: MMM, Pie, Fitz and Farside

[farside22]

No counter-claim or cross-vote from me. I need to review the game, particularly the interactions between chauchaudotcom and semioldguy. I voiced the suspicion earlier that they were scum busing, and it's a more likely possibility now.

BS ALERT
BS ALERT
BS ALERT
BS ALERT

What you said yesterday was the following:

I'm currently undecided on CC.com, it will depend on my read of semioldguy. If he looks scummy, CC.com will look better, and vice versa. As it stands now, I see no reason to exclude CC.com from suspicion. I don't like how she switched from mindgamer to semioldguy so suddenly.

So you want to explain why your saying that you think it was bussing when yesterday you were back and forth on one them as scum?

[Pie_is_good]

Reread through 7.

MMM/Biohazard bickering is hot town-on-town action.

Chauchau is my #1 suspect so far.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

She starts day 2 by voting havingfitz, since he's mindgamer's replacement, but then questions semioldguy. It starts with a casual 'what are you thinking', but then most of her posts are responding to his.

Interesting how both CC.com and farside22 are quick to deny any possibility of distancing.

[Pie_is_good]

Stopping for now at 8. Behind CC, farside and fitz as scum wouldn't surprise me. Cases to follow on whichever of these three is still among my top suspects once I'm done reading.

[chauchaudotcom]

Interesting how both CC.com and farside22 are quick to deny any possibility of distancing.

Way to misrepresent. I was pointing out that no where the day before did you claim that me and semi were bussing each other as you so claimed.

And why in the world would I accept the possibility of distancing if I was not, in fact, distancing?

That being said, care to actually answer the question I asked?

[farside22]

She starts day 2 by voting havingfitz, since he's mindgamer's replacement, but then questions semioldguy. It starts with a casual 'what are you thinking', but then most of her posts are responding to his.

Interesting how both CC.com and farside22 are quick to deny any possibility of distancing.

Quote please.

[Pie_is_good]

11 in, I'm feeling good about MMM town and CC scum. I think MMM is responding very well to pressure. Meanwhile, look at CC's posting patterns. For the first 8 or so pages, she's fairly generic and perhaps even a bit lurky. Then people start mentioning town reads on her. Suddenly, her posting rate jumps, and her posts get phenomenally inoffensive: her case on MMM suddenly gets super generic, and instead of doling out her own commentary she spends her time questioning other people. This, to me, is the sign of a scum who feels they're in a good position and doesn't want to jeopardize it.

Getting a townlier read on Farside than before. I think I may have been confusing farside's playstyle for legitimately scummy play.

[Pie_is_good]

Would still like a willing participant to take a stab at summarizing.

[Confucius]

If you are 11 pages in, then you are already halfway done. I think you can manage without a summary.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 3.1:

Not Voting (6): chauchaudotcom, Confucius, farside22, havingfitz, Mysterious Mystery Man, Pie_is_good

[havingfitz]

Hoping for a quicklynch?

For scum, always!

@ havingfitz: It would be nice if you responded to my last post, in which I refuted your case on me. I say again: your claim of OMGUS on you is laughable, and you have thus far ignored my case on you. If you want anyone to give your vote credence, I suggest that you respond properly.

I responded in Post 510 and elaborate at the bottom of this post. I have responded properly and you are ignoring and misrepresenting facts.

Try reading Mindgamer, and I think you'll see the change of opinion. And, although you said otherwise, I have not 'dismissed' Mindgamer's voting; his vote on Ythan with no explanation is another reason in my case against him/you.

Mindgamer did provide reasoning for his vote on Ythan. It wasn’t the greatest and he elaborated a bit in post 159. To say he provided no reason for his vote is another ‘misrepresentation’ on your part.

In contrast, my vote on Ythan was made at the end of the day (Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:58 pm – 8 days left), and was accompanied by reasoning. Also, suspecting many people is different from bandwagoning. It's one thing to have your eye on more than one person, but quite another to side with the most popular argument.

What does this contrast have to do with anything? And BTW...I would not call 8 days left till deadline the end of the day. But regardless...what does it matter?

I came across this while quantifying my responses to you and thought it was worth bringing up again:

Making a serious vote this quickly will likely cause either one of two things: I am lynched, or you are lynched. Either way, it's not a smart move for town, the exception being of course, if I am scum.

Do you know Bio's alignment somehow?

---

As for the two quotes, my point was to show how you made a argument you couldn't follow up on: namely

saying my vote on evilsnail was because he expressed suspicion of me D1

. When I questioned you about that, you denied it. It doesn't matter if it was in the same post when you voted me, it was still said, and it's a baseless accusation.

Your comment above which I bolded is a blatant lie. My vote on you had nothing to do with my later comment about you and evilsnail. As I detail in Post 510. The fact I make an observation later ITT completely separate from my vote can not be construed as being the reason for the earlier vote...as I explained further to Confucius.

Finally, your remark about how you put suspicion on me first is a lie. That post only shows that you wanted to look closer to my case on Mindgamer, who you replaced. So, even if you do take that as an expression of suspicion and not a declaration of investigation, it was still in response to suspicion I put on your player slot.

How is it a lie? I replaced in at the start of D2. Eight RL days after D2 had started I state that you and chau have “caught my attention/suspicions” to which you follow less than an hour later saying I am scummy (ie OMGUS!). I can not find any mention by you towards me or mindgamer on D2 prior to you calling me scummy. Additionally....the last reference I can find on D1 where you mention mindgamer is in the post where you vote Ythan (who mindgamer is also voting for) where you say,

Hm... Tricky. I have a gut town read, but his play is erratic. Honestly, I could go either way on him.

So how HTH can you dispute the fact I found you suspicious when I say so (ie before you started to focus on me)?

And how can you say I was suspicious of you based on your prior suspicions towards me or mindgamer when you had barely mentioned mindgamer? Hell...two players had votes on mindgamer at the end of D1....that is what I would call exhibiting suspions towards, not what you did. This whole argument on your part is completely without merit.

Your play on D2 (and so far today) has been poor and you are cornered scum.

I can’t think of any reason to not vote you. I am locked in on you. Your play is extremely scummy and your cases are crap. I’m done going around with you...it’s a waste of my time to continue regurgitating what I have already said to you. If anyone else requires clarification on my MMM stance I would be happy to discuss further.

Vote MMM

We should lynch somebody today, and I will Vig somebody overnight. If either one of those hit scum, we will either win the game or have a Day Four with three players alive, and one last chance to lynch scum.

Question....if you are targeted by scum tonight (which I assume you would be)...does your kill go through regardless? When MMMscum is lynched and only one scum remains....whose night action would have precedence? Or would they both go through?

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

Hoping for a quicklynch?

For scum, always!

@ havingfitz: It would be nice if you responded to my last post, in which I refuted your case on me. I say again: your claim of OMGUS on you is laughable, and you have thus far ignored my case on you. If you want anyone to give your vote credence, I suggest that you respond properly.

I responded in Post 510 and elaborate at the bottom of this post. I have responded properly and you are ignoring and misrepresenting facts.

And I responded below that post. That is to what I am referring.

Try reading Mindgamer, and I think you'll see the change of opinion. And, although you said otherwise, I have not 'dismissed' Mindgamer's voting; his vote on Ythan with no explanation is another reason in my case against him/you.

Mindgamer did provide reasoning for his vote on Ythan. It wasn’t the greatest and he elaborated a bit in post 159. To say he provided no reason for his vote is another ‘misrepresentation’ on your part.

But not at the time of his vote. That is what I, and others, found scummy.

In contrast, my vote on Ythan was made at the end of the day (Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:58 pm – 8 days left), and was accompanied by reasoning. Also, suspecting many people is different from bandwagoning. It's one thing to have your eye on more than one person, but quite another to side with the most popular argument.

What does this contrast have to do with anything? And BTW...I would not call 8 days left till deadline the end of the day. But regardless...what does it matter?

It was closer to the end of the day than Mindgamer's vote. It was based off reads of two players. It was accompanied immediately with reasoning.

I came across this while quantifying my responses to you and thought it was worth bringing up again:

Making a serious vote this quickly will likely cause either one of two things: I am lynched, or you are lynched. Either way, it's not a smart move for town, the exception being of course, if I am scum.

Do you know Bio's alignment somehow?

This again? I have yet to see how that implies I knew BH's alignment. If anything, it implies he was scum, since I proved that he was doing badly as town.

---

As for the two quotes, my point was to show how you made a argument you couldn't follow up on: namely

saying my vote on evilsnail was because he expressed suspicion of me D1

. When I questioned you about that, you denied it. It doesn't matter if it was in the same post when you voted me, it was still said, and it's a baseless accusation.

Your comment above which I bolded is a blatant lie. My vote on you had nothing to do with my later comment about you and evilsnail. As I detail in Post 510. The fact I make an observation later ITT completely separate from my vote can not be construed as being the reason for the earlier vote...as I explained further to Confucius.

So? I still don't know why you said it. If it had nothing to do with your reasoning, then why did you post it?

Finally, your remark about how you put suspicion on me first is a lie. That post only shows that you wanted to look closer to my case on Mindgamer, who you replaced. So, even if you do take that as an expression of suspicion and not a declaration of investigation, it was still in response to suspicion I put on your player slot.

How is it a lie? I replaced in at the start of D2. Eight RL days after D2 had started I state that you and chau have “caught my attention/suspicions” to which you follow less than an hour later saying I am scummy (ie OMGUS!). I can not find any mention by you towards me or mindgamer on D2 prior to you calling me scummy. Additionally....the last reference I can find on D1 where you mention mindgamer is in the post where you vote Ythan (who mindgamer is also voting for) where you say,

Hm... Tricky. I have a gut town read, but his play is erratic. Honestly, I could go either way on him.

So how HTH can you dispute the fact I found you suspicious when I say so (ie before you started to focus on me)?

You did not directly attack me. You did not directly express suspicion of me until much later, after my vote on you had stewed. And my vote on you was based off an entirely different, and perfectly valid reason: your illogical vote on CC.com.

And how can you say I was suspicious of you based on your prior suspicions towards me or mindgamer when you had barely mentioned mindgamer? Hell...two players had votes on mindgamer at the end of D1....that is what I would call exhibiting suspions towards, not what you did. This whole argument on your part is completely without merit.

Mindgamer is secondary, my main points are on you.

Your play on D2 (and so far today) has been poor and you are cornered scum.

I can’t think of any reason to not vote you. I am locked in on you.

This bit is true.

Your play is extremely scummy and your cases are crap. I’m done going around with you...it’s a waste of my time to continue regurgitating what I have already said to you. If anyone else requires clarification on my MMM stance I would be happy to discuss further.

Vote MMM

We should lynch somebody today, and I will Vig somebody overnight. If either one of those hit scum, we will either win the game or have a Day Four with three players alive, and one last chance to lynch scum.

Question....if you are targeted by scum tonight (which I assume you would be)...does your kill go through regardless? When MMMscum is lynched and only one scum remains....whose night action would have precedence? Or would they both go through?

Believe it or not, this post makes me lean toward a town read on you. It's about guaranteed that Confucius will vig me tonight, so scum wouldn't have to get me lynched. I think he really thinks I'm scum.

[havingfitz]

Believe it or not, this post makes me lean toward a town read on you.

I think you know I'm town.

It's about guaranteed that Confucius will vig me tonight, so scum wouldn't have to get me lynched.

If you aren't the lynch and you are leaning towards me being town....and Confucius is confirmed town...who are the two remaining scum amongst chau, farside, and pie is good? And why?

I think he really thinks I'm scum.

He's really not alone.

[Pie_is_good]

It's fine with me if Confucius isn't going to be the one to summarize. Anyone else willing to step up?

@havingfitz: If it comes down to it, is there anyone else you have a good enough scum read on that you'd also be willing to vote?

Personally, the more I think about it, the more I feel comfortable with MMM town.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

OK, I'm leaning toward farside22 as my main suspect. Her play D1 revolved mainly around myself and Ythan/Nick. She claimed that we were scum together for reasons I find flawed. Her main point on me at the start was the one that havingfitz brought up just now, about how I 'knew BH was town'. No mention of OMGUS, which is her primary case on me today. She is inconsistent, saying I used "horrible logic" in one post, and then asking where she said that two posts later, as well as the post after that, where she rebukes ME for not reading. As soon as I express suspicion of Ythan/Nick, she claims we are scum partners, based on the two of us busing. Come day 2, she changes her argument again, this time basing it on OMGUS. I also don't like how she played both sides in my arguments with havingfitz.

More to come as I work through the ISO.

[Pie_is_good]

16 in. Top suspect is CC, second suspect is farside, but I think there's some fairly compelling evidence that the two are

not

scumbuddies. For that reason farside will probably wind up getting a bye from me today.

[farside22]

Pittbunny /Deer
Deer's view day 1 post 153
reading this I could see deer checking MM, mindgamer or rayfrost.
Those where the four he listed as the scummiest at this point.

I still don't like mindgamer much and I'm not quite sure MMM is scum. However, I heartily disapprove of mcgriddle and nick's votes. Gotta do some rereading.

Again I could see this as a suspect in his view.
[http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 90#2241190] post 437 [/url] Reads MMM as scum as well as semi, snail and myself.

I think if pitt investigated Semi he would not have backed down and voted evil here.

List:

Semi, Snail, Chau, Farside, Hito, MMM, Confucius. However, I'm willing to instigate a L-2 via swap for the sake of running out of time.

Unvote; Vote Evilsnail

I have to agree with chau assement based on what deer stated day one of his suspicion on mindgamer to Pitt's null read and taking him off the list above that I would see this as havingfitz being checked.
I know if I find someone scum they would be a call out in big bold letters.


I keep getting interupted today at work I will do my read of semi next and then *looks pointed at MMM* requote the stuff that MMM ignored before.

Pie: Why is MMM looking town to you?

[Pie_is_good]

One of the main cases against MMM is that he's OMGUSing while fervently denying that his behavior is actually OMGUS. I do agree that his voting patterns are OMGUSy. In my experience, however, people who (claim to) find their attackers legitimately scummy are MUCH more frequently town.

I don't buy Confucius's meta-argument against MMM because it's missing a piece. Meta-based attacks require a game in which the attackee was scum (check), parallels drawn between this game and that game (check), and a game in which the attackee was town and did NOT exhibit the behavior in question (not check).

If MMM were scum, it would be damn near suicidal to write off havingfitz as town, given that havingfitz isn't about to look elsewhere any time soon.

There are a few other minor reasons I had in the back of my mind, but I can't remember them right now.

[Pie_is_good]

Clarification: writing off havingfitz as town will probably prove suicidal whether MMM is scum or town. It's just that willingness to suicide in the name of scumhunting is a very protown thing.

[Pie_is_good]

I'm caught up and would like a chauchau lynch please.

Havingfitz is my #2, although farside is currently getting the benefit of chauchau's scumminess.

[Mysterious Mystery Man]

What exactly is your case against CC.com?