Mini 219: Tom Cruise Mafia -- It's a Wrap!

[MeMe]

Count

:

Everyone

(0):

No one

Four -- still the lynching number.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I disagree with people who think you learn more from getting beat up than you do from winning.

--

Three-time Oscar Loser, Tom Cruise

[Fuldu]

I've been thinking about it, and given the situation, I think the circumstances are such that the downside to my coming out as inHim's mason partner is minimal. For one thing, Phoebus and I are the only two players who haven't, at some time in the game, either voted inHim or at least suggested disbelief in the mason claim. That narrows the field rather substantially. I don't plan on claiming my role name, since we could still catch people out with a counterclaim.

[Talitha]

OK. I'm ready to start voting. Any objections?

[Seol]

Well, it's nice to have Fuldu - who I had no fix on, due to his sparse posting - to be effectively confirmed via his mason claim (inhim, could you just confirm that? Just procedure ). Phoebus is still top of my list, for the reasons I've already mentioned, and as such still holds my "unbolded" vote. Whilst I'm getting good vibes from Yosarian, WindSlicer's behaviour yesterday is a marked contrast to the game Phoebus linked to, and not in a good way, so he's a close second on my list.

That leaves Tally and Astro for third place, and I'm none to keen on how they've both effectively lurked through the day. There's a bit of me that thinks

maybe

Phoebus is town and the scum have been happy to sit back and let the sparks fly between us, but for that to be the case - once we've eliminated our masons, which I'm inclined to do - the only way Phoebus could be town is if we have only three scum in a 2-man Mafia, 1 SK setup, which seems unlikely to me.

[Phoebus]

We might as well vote Astro with three people commenting on his scuminess.

But I'd return Seol's compliment and prefer him over Astro.
Again with the discussing likelihood of scum numbers.
What

do

you know?

I also think it's fairly important, regardless of any "good" vibes Yos may be giving, which, to me, he is not. WindSlicer did ask to be replaced when under pressure. I know from experience that playing as newbie scum can be daunting. The fact that Yos has been deflecting about Seol makes me more comfortable voting Seol, Yos (depending on whether Seol is scum - though I'm convinced he is) and then Astro (him being second is Seol is OK - unlikely)

[Seol]

But I'd return Seol's compliment and prefer him over Astro.
Again with the discussing likelihood of scum numbers.
What

do

you know?

I know we've got at least two cops (one of which we admittedly don't know the mechanics of), a vig, a doc, and two masons. With a setup like that, two Mafia and an SK doesn't seem

enough

, and Meme's an experienced mod and a very experienced player. Seeing as the information is pertinent to how we proceed, I think it's only pragmatic to consider it. Why are you so averse to doing so?

Also, it's interesting that on the reread you didn't respond to my last post in our original head-to-head - the one which prompted me to vote you - you got distracted by Yosarian and just left those points hanging. Did you just have nothing to say in response?

[Yosarian2]

I also think it's fairly important, regardless of any "good" vibes Yos may be giving, which, to me, he is not. WindSlicer did ask to be replaced when under pressure. I know from experience that playing as newbie scum can be daunting.

(shrug) I can't really comment on WindSlicer's motivation, of course. Personally, if I had limited time and had to drop out of one my mafia games, I'd drop out of the one I was having less fun in, and based on his early game posts in this game, I don't think WindSlicer was having a lot of fun in this game; it looks like he kind of ignored/forgot about this game for a while, got some lurker votes, and then got frustrated over getting lurker voted. That seems like fairly common behavior from a newbie of any alignment.

[inHimshallibe]

But he wasn't really a newbie. In the forums, perhaps, but he knew how it was in chat. This is probably not the place for a chat v. forum style discussion, but I'm throwing it out there because WS knew what he was doing.

[Astronaut]

I'll be gone until Monday, and since more and more are commenting on my scumminess (and I'm afraid I might be getting it when Tally says she's ready to vote), I'll make a half-claim.

I'm immune to one lynching. Since this is something I don't think I've seen as scum ability, wasting your lynch on me would confirm my innocense. Is it worth it? I don't know, but since people are after me anyways I might as well tell you now rather than you finding it out yourselves.

[Yosarian2]

Interesting...

Normally, I would believe such a claim, because it's so easily testable. The problem is, if we're in lynch or lose, if don't lynch scum today we might never get a chance to test a claim like that, and if Astro is scum he probably knows that; if there's ever a time for such a bold false claim, this would be it. I'm not sure what to think at this point, but I think I would like to see an actual role name claim from Astro, even if he dosn't want to claim all of his abilities.

[inHimshallibe]

You have to think - would no lynch hurt us? If it would then we don't lynch Astro yet. If not, that's fine by me. I'm pretty sure no lynch is extremely detrimental at the moment.

Assuming Astronaut is telling the truth, this leaves:
Yos
Seol
Phoebus
Talitha

If the setup is 3 and 1 or 2 and 2, anybody of these 4 are scum. I think that's plain to see. So, I'd start making a case either against Astro, or against the the 4 scum still standing theory.

[Yosarian2]

You have to think - would no lynch hurt us? If it would then we don't lynch Astro yet. If not, that's fine by me. I'm pretty sure no lynch is extremely detrimental at the moment.

The real question is, do we believe Astro? If he's lying, then lynching him would be just as good as lynching any other scum. If he's telling the truth, then lynching him might be almost as bad as lynching any other good guy, depending on what the setup is and how lucky we get tonight.

[Phoebus]

Seol

I know we've got at least two cops (one of which we admittedly don't know the mechanics of), a vig, a doc, and two masons. With a setup like that, two Mafia and an SK doesn't

seem

enough, and Meme's an experienced mod and a very experienced player.

(I changed the italicised part)

MeMe's experience as a player and mod would definitely enable her, if she chose to do so, to balance a game which would appear otherwise. Given Astro's claim, and given that I think he's scummy, a free lynch could be such a balancing measure.
He could even be SK. MeMe was the first of the SK winners in what has become a rising trend lately. She won MasiaSTOM by being part of a mason group. I know she prefers to beef up the SK a little bit.
There has also been discussion after Astro's claim about his ability not appearing to be anything other than pro town. In my book, MeMe's experience would lead her to being able to foresee such reactions and therefore, deliberately include this.
I know I try and think of what might be so ridiculous that one could get away with it when I try to introduce weird roles/mechanics in my games.
Would you call me experienced? However, it's all meta gaming. We will only know what's what once we finish this game or lynch someone.

As for that post, I probably got distracted. I will dig it up and see if I need to address anything there.

And I'm not averse to discussing it. There's just this little hint of knowledge about your posts that rubs me wrong.

I'm going to ignore Yosarian's shrug in post 256. I'm very close to voting for him. He's trying to appear too nonchalant about his predecessor's actions.

Astro's current departure will stall things - but I'm happy voting either Yos or Seol. His half-claim is annoying. A name to go along with it would have been useful. Nowhere does he categorily state that he is not evil. People might ask, why I require this, but even in text medium, people don't like lying unless they're forced to. When you're a townie, you have no problem sayng you're town. Astro never said that with his claim, or even earlier - though I'm working off memory with this. I don't see why even evil could not survive one lynch in a theme game, especially discussing what I just pointed out above about a possibly smaller complement of scum getting a few perks.

And in preview, I see the second time that Yos categorily presents both sides of the argument, trying to be helpful while he adds no content whatsoever. The first would be post 259.

[Yosarian2]

Seol

I'm going to ignore Yosarian's shrug in post 256. I'm very close to voting for him. He's trying to appear too nonchalant about his predecessor's actions.

(shrug) What am I supposed to say? I'm caught in a position where I'm forced to defend an action (asking to be replaced in one game while still playing in another) that I have never done and would never do. I don't think wanting to be replaced is a scum tell; as a general rule I don't think that scum want to get replaced more then townies do, but I do agree that the way he did it is strange. All I can do is try to guess why he might have asked to be replaced; if he was still in this game we could ask him, but of course we can't. I'm not sure what you mean by "nonchalant", as I did adress the issue as much as anyone could have.

[inHimshallibe]

OK then, assuming nothing of Astro - which one of you isn't scum? I'd like to know that.

[Talitha]

I'm not scum. And from where I'm sitting I think there's a more important question and that is, how are the scum distributed in this game? If it's 3 + 1, the last thing we want to do is lynch the 1. If there is a singular killer in this game I'm guessing it's Yosarian or Astronaut. Mainly because I can see things shaping up to lynch one of those 2 today, and I assume that the mafia would be trying to lynch the SK.

[Phoebus]

I think Yos and Seol are in cahoots and would vote either.
Yos more for behaviour of his predecessor (meta-gaming) and his brazen attempts at being smooth.
Cahoots? Because however subtly, Yos has shielded Seol, who still rubs me slightly wrong. Given our claimed masons, I see no reason for anyone to defend anyone else.
Moreso, with two cops dead.

[Fuldu]

You know what, if we're this concerned about it being tight at this point, I see no reason not to get a name claim from the rest of you. It might help inHim and I make a decision, especially if someone happens to claim

my

role name. Personally, I'd like to have Seol start and select who he wants to go next, but that can be under discussion, as well.

[Yosarian2]

I think Yos and Seol are in cahoots and would vote either.
Yos more for behaviour of his predecessor (meta-gaming) and his brazen attempts at being smooth.

So you're going to vote for me because I'm "smooth"? Or even worse, I'm "brazenly trying to be smooth"?

I'm not even sure what that means. I'm trying to find scum and to convince the town not to lynch me, just like anyone would be in my position. Meanwhile, you're pretty much just ignoring everything I say, and instead just creating excuses out of thin air to vote for me that don't actually mean anything. First I'm "trying to appear too nonchalant" and now I'm "brazenly smooth." And you also seem to think that if you just keep repeating that I'm "defending Seol", that everyone in the town will just go along with it, no matter how little you have to actually back up tha statement.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and I would have no problem with a mass claim at this point. I would like either Phoebus or Astro to claim first, because I'm most suspicious of them at this point, but whatever the town thinks is fine with me.

[Phoebus]

That's just it.
You're not contributing much, are you?
You're presenting ALL sides of an argument. How useful is that!
How is it that none of your posts address all arguments and then suggest a good plan for getting scum lynched? Instead of that, by your own admission, you're more concerned about being lynched.

As far as who gets to pick in case of a claim, I doubt your opinion holds much water. However, again, you choose to ignore Seol. Astro is scummy, yes. I'm scummy?
Well, can you do a breakdown? Apart from my early vote, give me some better material. Come on!

[Phoebus]

That should be - a breakdown of my posts and how they're scummy. I feel you're hung up on the early vote as well.

In fact, I think I've had enough. 24 hours and I vote Yosarian.
Convince me not to do so.
You're pushing all the wrong buttons for me.

[Talitha]

I think a mass claim could be helpful at this point, yeah.

[Yosarian2]

That's just it.
You're not contributing much, are you?
You're presenting ALL sides of an argument. How useful is that!

Again, what are you talking about? Are you even talking to me?

How is it that none of your posts address all arguments and then suggest a good plan for getting scum lynched?

Adress all arguments? You have not made a single argument in the last several posts. You just keep making vague statements that mean almost nothing, without ever explaining what you mean or backing up your arguments with anything. It's pretty clear that, at this point, you're just simply looking for an excuse to vote for me.

In any case, so far today, I have been trying to find scum. I pointed out that your actions were scummy looking, and I pointed out that the way Astro suddenly started to lurk was scummy. Meanwhile, all you've done is try to throw suspicion back on anyone who thinks you look suspicious.

Instead of that, by your own admission, you're more concerned about being lynched.

And now you're just simply lying about what I said. What I said was:

I'm trying to find scum and to convince the town not to lynch me

When did I ever say that I was "more concerned" about being lynched? Why are you so concerned with getting me lynched that you're either ignoring my posts or lying about what I said?

As far as who gets to pick in case of a claim, I doubt your opinion holds much water. However, again, you choose to ignore Seol. Astro is scummy, yes. I'm scummy?

Yes, you are scummy. You started out the day in a lynch or lose situation with a lurker vote. You then quickly changed that to an OMGUS vote. When two different people both said you looked scummy for different reasons, your defense was "Look, they're both attacking me, they must both be scum together!" and every single time I say anything about how scummy you are acting, your only response is to try to change the subject to Seol or to make some vauge mostly meaningless reason about why you want to vote for me (you just had another one in your latest post, where you say I'm "pushing your buttons")

Basically, you just don't look like a good guy who's looking for scum; you seem more interested in just trying to create excuses to vote for me instead of actually reading the thread and looking for scum. It's interesting that a little while ago, you were mostly looking at Seol as scum, and now you're "going to vote for me in 24 hours". The only thing that changed in the meantime is that I said, again, that I'm suspicious of you; which shouldn't be surprising as you haven't done anything to take the suspicion off of you that I pointed out earlier and that even you agreed was for a logical reason. So when I attack you, you mis-represent my posts, try to change the subject to someone else, and then threaten to vote for me if I don't "change your mind"? How can I change your mind when you have not given a single solid reason why you're suspicious of me, and you aren't even really responding to my posts?

Unless you can explain your reasons a little better then vauge phrases like me being "brazenly smooth" or "pushing your buttons", it really seems like you're threatening to vote for me because I've attacked you. I really don't think a good guy would act the way you have today, or the way you're acting right now, trying to use the threat of your vote to take the pressure off of you in a possible lynch or lose situation.

I'll be glad to do a full analysis of all of your posts once I have a little more time, probably tommorow.

[Talitha]

So, masons? We doing this mass claim thing? I think you two should be the ones to decide who claims first.

I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure that it is going to help a lot... I can't think who the scum will be, is Tom Cruise ever a bad guy? Is it possible that the scum could claim their own roles and we'd never know they are scum?

I still think it's our logical next step though. I'm just not sure enough on who is working together. The Seol/Yosarian thing was obvious, but I tend to think it was a little too obvious And Phoebus has been pushing it pretty hard.. my gut says there's a good chance he's mafia with one of them (Seol probably), and Yosarian is innocent, or opposing scum.