Mini 971: Princess bride - They all lived .......

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Pre-emptive OMGUS

Vote: Parama

Let's do a popcorn claim.

I'll start: I have no popcorn.

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Never seen a miller claim before. I feel like ML would want to discuss making a fake claim with his team first, and there wasn't much time before the game started. So I'm inclined to believe him.

Why would he need a team to be scum?

I'm fine with the millerclaim.

Jack, you're useless.

Still like my Paramavote. Wolframnhart, with me!

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It would also help him avoid the nightkill though.

Not to mention that as a SK you wouldn't be letting your partners down if you screwed up.

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It would also help him avoid the nightkill though.

Not to mention that as a SK you wouldn't be letting your partners down if you screwed up.

Here he's saying that people who find me townie even given my miller claim fail because they neglect SKs. This is basically nonsense, and bringing up SKs at all at this point is not useful.

ekiM gave an argument for you being town which implicitly assumed there that there weren't any SKs. So I called him out on that.

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Ckd seems town.

Parama, would you nightkill ani as scum?

Let's

vote: wolframnhart

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Definitely. Then we'd have something to go on.

Shovel, yesterday you were asking wolframnhart to follow you onto Para. Now you're voting for wolf. What, if anything has changed?

I often ask people to join me in bandwagonning early on in the game. There's no longer a Paramawagon and I see no particular reason to recreate one.

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Shovel, yesterday you were asking wolframnhart to follow you onto Para. Now you're voting for wolf. What, if anything has changed?

I often ask people to join me in bandwagonning early on in the game. There's no longer a Paramawagon and I see no particular reason to recreate one.

I find this an interesting statement....you see no particular reason to pressure Para?..at all? Huh... Seems pretty early to make such a statement. why is wolf worth a wagon? and do you often ask people to join you bandwagonning early as scum or is this just a town trait??

I think you're misinterpreting me; I don't think Parama is innocent, I just don't think he stands out. I see no reason to wagon Parama over wolf. And I ask both as town and as scum (I do it as scum because I know I do it as town).

@wolf, that's exactly what I was implying.

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Look, I'd like to have a good reason for a vote right now, but I don't. I'm just a slow starter; my gut needs more to work with. I will "stay in RVS" as long as I need to.

Ckd, I said "misinterpret", not "misrepresent". And my stance on Parama is that Parama is he is about as likely to be scum as an average person.

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I just picked someone at random not on the wagon and not Jack.

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Only a vig would kill Animorph, I'd think.

Or scum trying to set up Parama.

Hmm.

Or scum who didn't feel like playing with ani and who didn't have a better kill.

Um, it's Day 2.

Um, it's page 8. Now if we had a lynch we could properly analyse, it would be a different story, but as far as I'm concerned it being Day 2 is a technicality.

Question for you. Why did the scum kill fail last night? Inactivity by scum? Animorph protected the right person? Something else?

If the scum did fail to kill, I would assume it to be role-based. There doesn't appear to be an activity problem in this game and the Night lasted 72 hours.

P.S. Parama is looking a little town now although I don't agree with his stance on ekiM.

DDD, what is your stance on the Parama-ekiM fracas?

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What is the purpose of this question? How is introducing WIFOM into the game on page 8 helpful? Also, if you are suspicious of Parama, why vote for Wolf?

I wanted to see how he'd respond. I didn't particularly care as to whether he'd say yes or no (which, as you correctly point out, would be laced with WIFOM). I like the way he reacted. (And I didn't ask Parama as a result of suspicion, I just I'd be able to get something out of his response.)

I guarantee that at least one scum was on board with the Sens lynch.

Yeah, Sens. (Seriously though, at least one scum among a group of 5 people? Big deal.)

The essential problem with analysing the Senslynch is that it was just a silly RVS wagon right up to the point that Sens self-hammered.

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I really need to do a reread as I'm fairly clueless as to who the scum is.

Expect more from me by tomorrow.

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I believe Parama's name claim.

there is no reason (especially after the events of yesterday AND the night kill) that you should say Para doesn’t need a wagon…dont know if you are trying to buy townie points (if Para is town) or if you are trying to explain your change in vote off of Para (if he is scum)...but either way, your random vote is not sitting well....

Well, I disagree, I don't see Parama as being implicated by the previous day and night. And the notion that I would have to explain not voting Parama again is frankly pretty ridiculous considering my original vote was never anything other a fun RVSwagon vote.

I don't like ekiM's part in the exchange between him and Parama at the bottom of page 9. Why wait so long with the vote? It's fairly clear where it's going and if Parama had suddenly decided to deny it, that would be genuinely suspicious. ekiM seems more concerned about looking justified in voting for Parama here.

Unvote, vote: ekiM

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Well yeah, it's either a safe claim or a real claim. Name-claiming Westley does not automatically clear you, Parama, if that's what are you're thinking.

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Nor have I. I don't particularly mind him being replaced.

Parama, I don't find you suspicious, but I can assure you that you haven't done A. I'm not at all surprised that other people do find you suspicious.

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Yay for role-related reasons!

Unvote, vote: DDD

That's L-1. Claim, DDD.

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Gah, stop messing with us, Jack. You're lucky there wasn't a Night 0 and/or I don't have a vig power.

DDD brings up a salient point in 306, so back to my previous vote.

Unvote, vote: ekiM

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Guys, can we run up ekiM now? Deadline lynches are sort of lame.

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I am naturally impatient.

Claim

: I'm the Grandfather and I'm a Cop.

I targetted curiouskarmadog Night 1 which I breadcrumbed in my first post of the Day. I got an innocent (obviously).

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Questions: why did you claim before someone was threatening to hammer? What's the flavor justification for the granddad being a cop? Why did you investigate CKD? Not the lynch today I guess.

Horrordude asked for a claim. The threat was implied. My role PM doesn't provide a flavour justification for me being a cop. I investigated ckd because he's a good player and I'm fairly sure I'd have trouble determining his alignment normally. I considered Jack but I knew I wouldn't be able to breadcrumb an "Innocent"-result on Jack.

I dont believe the claim....grandfather wasnt even a character in the story, he was the narrator, doesnt makes sense (but that is just flavor crap), it is an easy claim, because no one would be that character (because it is not a character)

There aren't really enough prominent characters in Princess Bride for a mini if you ignore this type of character. Last Princess Bride mini, which I played in, had the Grandson as SK and Grandfather as fake claim and was still forced to use "the ancient booer" as character. And if I were scum, wouldn't I have a safe claim to use?

SPS, please provide said crumb.

The first thing I said Today was "Ckd seems town."

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No. It's an empirical fact that scum pretty much always have safe claims in this day and age.

And if I were scum who had decided not to use my safe claim, I'd have to come up with a character which is unlikely to be in the game but that would be accepted as being part of it nonetheless. Going with the safe claim would clearly be the superior option.

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Got any previous games where you were an investigative role, Shovel?

I only have a couple of finished games on this account - I was a cop in one, but I died the first night, so I very much doubt you'll be able to get anything useful out of Open 210. I can dig up some of my old games, but I'm not sure how representative those are (they're all at least 2 years old).

Speaking of which, Shovel your vote for me is ill-placed. You're voting me for following Jack, which is something you should be OK with seeing as you did too. We only have a day and a half until deadline so who are you going to vote for?

1) That's not my only reason for voting for you (and I don't like that you're implying that it's THE reason I'm voting for you). There was a dialogue between you and Parama earlier that felt off to me.
2) The same action by 2 different players can still be interpreted very differently. I agree with the argument that the vote was out of place for you while I know that vote was not out of the ordinary for me.

I considered Jack but I knew I wouldn't be able to breadcrumb an "Innocent"-result on Jack.

Yes, what does this mean?

Clearly being able to breadcrumb my result effectively is a boon to the town. I felt I would be able to do that if I investigated ckd, whereas it would've been very difficult if I investigated Jack.

Oh wow, good point. Shovel what were you thinking Jack was doing then when you followed him?

Hmm? I don't see why there can't be multiple information roles. The way Jack went about it didn't exactly suggest cop either.

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List of games where I had an investigative role (I'm CES):
Methodical naive cop in Methodical Mafia, which had 2 other Cops.
Tracker in Mostly Mute Haiku Mafia. (Each post had to be in haiku form.)
One-third of a Cop-Doc-something Masonry in Diablo Mafia. I was also replaced about halfway in.
SK Tracker in the first Smalltown. I basically got caught Night 0.
Cop in Newbie 232.
Doc/Cop in Raj's Freaktown III. I didn't last long.

I believe those are all of my investigative roles. I'd be greatly surprised if you got anything useful out of it though.

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Because I really don't know Jack well enough to be able to discern alignment from his erratic and aggressive play. I'm fairly sure calling Jack town would've looked out of place and I would've expected Jack to pounce on it (and with good reason).

As to your second question, I wouldn't breadcrumb a guilty, I'd just announce it (I might wait, say, a week, but I wouldn't breadcrumb.)

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Princess Buttercup doesn't strike me as likely scum. And I have no problem coming up with a way for horrordude's name claim to be confirmed by Parama.

Re: my original reasons for voting you. I don't buy your rebuttal. I don't see why you'd be that concerned with keeping Parama talking.

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And once again we have arguments in this game of the form "I don't like the way X did Y" instead of "the way X did Y is more likely to be scum motivated than average, because...". Ugh.

That's because scum don't only make intentional mistakes. It's quite possible for scum to betray himself without making a play that's scum-motivated.

He can't specifically nameclaim or be modkilled but he can still claim exactly who he is?

Which is weird, sure. I don't see how it's scummy though.

How strongly does your role PM imply that Buttercup is pro-town, Parama?

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No-lynch is not an option unless everyone unvotes, ML, so get voting.

Have you considered ekiM?

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I targetted ekiM but I got blocked.

Vote: ekiM

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SPS, can you paraphrase the roleblock message you received?

"You were prevented from getting a result."-ish.

What makes you vote ekiM just because you were blocked?

It doesn't. The vote just carries over from yesterday. I thought it was pretty clear he was my biggest suspect considering I investigated him and all.

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SPS, does DDD flipping scum change your opinion about the quality of his meta on me any? Did you ever think it was good? Is this vote just continuation based on "I didn't like the way he voted Parama at the end of a conversation"? If so, have you actually thought about this game at all for, like, the last three weeks?

No. Yes. No. Yes.

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Quick thought: what do people think about massclaim today?

I wouldn't be opposed to it.

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I'm opposed to this lynch.

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It's in the archive.

Can you stop distracting us with irrelevancies, Parama?

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SPS has already claimed and is acting very confidant in his suspicion of ekiM. No town reason for wanting massclaim.

I can see the tactical benefits of a mass claim at this time. And it's not like ekiM has claimed yet.

I'm curious now why scum would (OMG I SAID "WHY SCUM WOULD", SO ITS WIFOM) kill a claimed innocent result over a cop.

Because they have a roleblocker? The innocent result insures ckd won't be lynched, ckd might have had some sort of power (as he appears to have) whereas my power was already being neutralized and the roleblock throws suspicion on me. Seriously, dude, blocking the cop and killing the innocent is the standard move.

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I don't see any reason to switch my vote. I'd rather keep the ekiMwagon viable.

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I got roleblocked again.

To repeat my claim: Grandfather, cop, targetted ckd Night 1 - innocent, targetted ekiM nights 2 and 3, got blocked on both occasions.

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Because I think he's scum. Obviously.

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Because I think he's scum. Obviously.

Despite pushing a cmar lynch when parama was an easy lynch? etc, obvscum.

Eh, to be honest, I didn't really re-read to account for the cmar-lynch. I wasn't really expecting it to get through and I haven't really put a lot of time into my games lately due it to being finals week (which is now over).

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Although it isn't mentioned in my pm, I've definitely seen the omniscient narrator-cop justification before. More relevantly, does this set-up appear balanced to you without a cop? It doesn't to me.

Dread Pirate Roberts is a very weird claim. It makes no sense to me that that would be a separate role in the game. Theory: ML intended to claim Vizzini as miller, but figured the poisoning would point to him and thus opted for a different role.

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Also, that argument fails at probability. When we already know that 2 scum weren't on the wagon, it becomes way more likely that the third wasn't. And DDD's posts show that scum were wary of the wagon.

BS alert. Scum don't act as a group, especially on Day 1. Why wouldn't scum want to go for the mislynch (from their perspective)?

Jack is right here. And it's not about scum acting as a group. If you assume each scum acts independently (or at least that this is a good approximation) and you know that 2 scum weren't on the wagon, then all 3 scum not being on it is a very realistic scenario. You really have to assume that scum actively work towards having 1-2 people on the wagon if you want the "no scum on the wagon"-scenario to be unlikely.

Let's lynch this "Dread Pirate Roberts". I was hesitant earlier because he did contribute to the CMAR and DDD-lynch and I really hadn't adapted to CMAR being scum yet, but having ISOed him and CMAR and having read Jack's latest spate of posting, I see no reason not to.

Vote: MacavityLock

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I'm back.

Confirm vote: MacavityLock

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Question to ekiM and Parama: if I were scum, wouldn't I have just claimed Vizzini (since that would presumably be my real role and he was the cop in the last Princess Bride in which he survived till endgame despite questionable results) and left the safe claim to the count fellow?

And don't just cry WIFOM and fail to answer the question. If I were Vizzini, I'd obviously be painfully aware that I shouldn't engage in that sort of stuff.[/joke]

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I just make that impression on people, bv310.

Please ask yourself this: Is this game balanced without a cop on the town's side? Why would I claim Grandfather instead of Vizzini? Why would this game contain an additional Dread Pirate Roberts even though Westley is the Dread Pirate Roberts (note that there's a good reason why ML would've had to make up a role name)?

P.S. Parama, you suck.