Pledge of Allegiance (Game Over! Page 76)

[farside22]

Listen up people. He didn't say he did anything last night. That is withholding information. That is not town.
He went to Red Coyote and even if that is not his intended target he still did something last night that he is not telling people.
HOW IS THIS TOWN?

[imaginality]

I agree about the Fish wagon likely having a decent mixture of scum and other Others on it. Conversely, his partners - seems like he's pretty much admitted he's not alone, e.g. iso 37 - might be on the side of those arguing he should live.

For me one of the key questions right now is how much we believe Fish's claim that there are lots of non-hostile Others. If he's right that there are maybe 6 non-hostile points-scoring Others, then I think we have to agree with Fish that if we lynch non-hostile Others too often it's likely to lead to us losing.

I think on the whole I believe Fish's claim. And his reaction to the bus + roleblock things seems one of genuine surprise, whereas I think a scum roleblocker would have thought more about what they'd say if they were tracked.

So, on the basis that Fish is probably telling the truth about there being ~6 or so non-hostile Others, I don't think we should use a lynch on him. (I have no worries if a vig wants to shoot him if they don't have any better suspects.) Also, I feel like we'd get more info value from lynching someone else, as well as more chance of lynching scum or hostile other.

(Exactly who we should be lynching instead, hmm, I still need to finish that re-read. I've only looked at this recent Fish shenanigans at the moment.)

[Chronopie]

So what's your opinion on the Targeting matter?

First he claimed he didn't, now it's clear he did.

[LlamaFluff]

Listen up people. He didn't say he did anything last night. That is withholding information. That is not town.
He went to Red Coyote and even if that is not his intended target he still did something last night that he is not telling people.
HOW IS THIS TOWN?

I did visit someone last night

. I doubt I'm going to claim who, because I've no intention of giving away what that action is. It's a protown action, but frankly my points rivals already know plenty about me.

[Fishythefish]

I'll be answering (or at least addressing) all points in the morning (~7 hours time).

[farside22]

Listen up people. He didn't say he did anything last night. That is withholding information. That is not town.
He went to Red Coyote and even if that is not his intended target he still did something last night that he is not telling people.
HOW IS THIS TOWN?

I did visit someone last night

. I doubt I'm going to claim who, because I've no intention of giving away what that action is. It's a protown action, but frankly my points rivals already know plenty about me.

Llama he didn't say that till I talked about my claim and he's keeps throwing out how pro-town he is. He could not say he didn't go anywhere after my claim.

[LlamaFluff]

Still, im not voting him. Will be floored if he flips anything but non-hostle other

[farside22]

Do you think Llama that scum fish got bus driven somewhere.

*note to the dumb ass town of bleck.
farside predicts she will now be rb. Thanks for not supporting your town tracker.

[LlamaFluff]

Do you think Llama that scum fish got bus driven somewhere.

Absolutely (if you change scum-fish to other-fish). Look at what claims we have

Fishy says he targeted player X with pro-town action
RC was targeted by fishy
RC was targeted by a roleblock

I would expect player X to get targeted by a scum roleblock. I can see player X to getting bussed with RC. Anti-town, especially other, has to be all over this wagon.

d3x is probably one of them

[Plum]

I swear to god if people unvote, I am going to lose it.

There's a reason why we lynch anyone not town. If not really obvious to you now, it will be later in the game.

Individual independent Non-hostile claimers can and

will

be dealt with. I'd ask them to claim now and promise not to lynch them unless we got wind that they're, you know, actually lying scum (and that includes playing scummy and not doing everything asked of them immediately). In fact, if you're Part of the Executive, Legislative, or Judicial branches

please claim now

. If you're pro-Town-type Other, as Fishy claims he is, you'll be doing the Town overall a favor, even though you might not want to claim. You have another incentive: You don't claim now, well, there's at least one and possibly more investigative PRs who will assume you to be hostile if they get a non-Town, or even an Other result on you, should you not claim immediately. Vig(s) will be encouraged to shoot only claimed Neutrals who are uncooperative, showed signs of scumminess in the Town's/Vig's estimation, or seemed to have a wincon which involved helping scum instead of Town. Again, these guys are not Hostile Other and we can win with them around.

DGB, I agree with you on Zorblag in general. I could dissect up a case, but the direct poking at Chronopie is something recent which rubbed me very wrong.

##Vote: Zorblag

. I'd endorse this wagon.

[Chronopie]

Town Cop says Fishy is not-town

Fishy claims other with one shot tracker

That they hadn't used

Tracker says Fishy visited RC

RC admits being RB'd

Fishy admits visiting someone,

Not RC

. Therefore Lied about not using ability.

But Fishy doesn't want to say who they visited, or what ability.

Therefore we cannot trust Fishy.

--

Any objections to that analysis? Thoughts?

[StrangerCoug]

Well, I'll be voting Gamma first thing tomorrow.

Care to give reasoning behind this?

As for the Fishythefish claim, I can make heads and tails out of it. I agree that we should not be wasting time getting rid of the "other"s, so

##unvote

for right now.

I think LlamaFluff vs. farside22 is town vs. town. Not sure what to think of Plum's asking the "branches" (I"m going to use that blanket term for the three) to massclaim as I don't quite know the long-term effects.

[LlamaFluff]

DGB, I agree with you on Zorblag in general. I could dissect up a case, but the direct poking at Chronopie is something recent which rubbed me very wrong.

##Vote: Zorblag

. I'd endorse this wagon.

This also works

##unvote
##Vote Zorblag

[Plum]

Crud hold the thought on that massclaim a second please. Lemme think.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not saying your massclaim idea is bad, Plum; I'm just saying that I don't know how to take it either way. Is there something about the massclaim that you realize you forgot?

[Plum]

The downside is that it

could

help the scum determine who's most worth killing. That could possibly be remedied depending on how we ask the Non-Hostiles to claim and to what degree we'll be coopting their powers for the Town's uses.

[Jack]

I'm going to pretend llama didn't unvote and go

##unvote:pops
##vote:d3x

Unsure about zorblag.

[farside22]

Red Coyote: Did you receive or get anything else beside being told you were Role Blocked?

[UncertainKitten]

Plum is prob town, Nico needs to die, SC needs to realize that farside vs. llama wasn't alignment related except for the debate on Fishy's alignment. I'm pretty sure they aren't accusing each other, and in fact farside's...reaction to llama indicates she thinks him stupid town.

So, that brings me to my point. Why bother pointing out it's "town vs. town"?

##FoS: StrangerCoug

[StrangerCoug]

Plum is prob town, Nico needs to die, SC needs to realize that farside vs. llama wasn't alignment related except for the debate on Fishy's alignment. I'm pretty sure they aren't accusing each other, and in fact farside's...reaction to llama indicates she thinks him stupid town.

So, that brings me to my point. Why bother pointing out it's "town vs. town"?

##FoS: StrangerCoug

farside22 wants Fishythefish dead; LlamaFluff wants him alive for right now. I thought, therefore, that one was accusing the other, thought the other had some sort of ulterior motive, or something like that. However, neither of them seem scummy.

[DrippingGoofball]

I want to lynch scum. The type that kills townies at night.

## unvote
## vote: Zorblag

[popsofctown]

UGH MS ATE MY POST.


anyway.

in response to RC:

Mod: Is it possible for me to lose the game though other townies win the game?

I paraphrased because I assumed my wincon boiled down to what the townie wincon always is, but technically if you nitpick the wording, if the last three living players were a lyncher who had already killed his target and two vanilla townies some townies would be declared winners and the dead lyncher target would be considered a loser. This kind of turns the town into a coalition of Survivors and is bad design and I'm hoping the wincon phrasing was just an oversight.


@LlamaFluff saying "if he got points for lynching townies isn't that bad"

Yes it's bad, but he still can't kill townies at night, still doesn't know if his targets are actually town when he votes them, and he's not a scum who definitely wants to vote townies.

@farside: You're viewing the theme game in a very simplistic way. Try to focus on the town wincon, not rules of thumb like LaL. We need to kill people who want us to die. Fishy may have claimed without fullclaiming. Did he do it because he actually want us to die? No, probably not, so leave him alive.

@DGB's post above me: I want that kind of scum to die too, but why is Zorblag scum exactly? His first post didn't seem quite lynchworthy to me.

[popsofctown]

EBWOP: Supposing I got a role pm just like the sample, would it be possible for me to lose the game although other townies won the game

[Ellibereth]

Llama 749 is godly and what I meant to do. Had a feeling some people on Fishy were Fishy. (hihihi)

##Unvote

##Vote: Troll

[DrippingGoofball]

@DGB's post above me: I want that kind of scum to die too, but why is Zorblag scum exactly? His first post didn't seem quite lynchworthy to me.

80% meta at work, plus evidence of fake scum hunting, and general coasting and being more agreeable than ever to avoid lynches and NKs. I've seen Troll as town, I've seen Troll as scum, they're the same. Really you can't tell Troll-town from Troll-scum, you just have to lynch him after he's passed the point of being useful to the town. He's actually EQUALLY helpful as town or scum. Except for the killing townies at night part.

I know that Troll would like to work alone. I don't think he'd pick scum, because that requires heightened social interactions and associated frustration. I don't think he'd pick town - in my experience, despite him making extremely useful contributions, his scumdar is not exactly stellar (he may disagree!). I expect him to choose "other."

So here we go, a meta assumption that Troll is other. BUT. Is he "other" playing for points, or is he other, as in, SK.

Troll's ordinary tone, which ranges from quite neutral to slightly curmudgeonly, is completely different from anything I've seen in his game. His mood is positively luminous. He is glowing. He is one happy camper. To go beyond meta arguments, he's coasting and faking scum hunting - THAT I have never seen before.

Methinks Troll is drunk on the cider of being SK.