Pledge of Allegiance (Game Over! Page 76)

[Zorblag]

@Fishythefish, you think that you'd be a more attractive target than either a tracker or a town-cop? Both of those strike me as much more likely targets for a scum roleblocker than an third party faction who's not going to be doing them any direct harm (unless Gammagooey is scum or some such thing.) Unless scum think they're going to be short on mislynches (which would strike me as surprising in a more normal setup, let alone the one we're probably working with here) I don't see why you think that's a real danger.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Also, I think that both Jack and Shotty to the Body have now cast their most recent votes without the ## and as such they won't be counted.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Shotty to the Body]

Fack.

## Unvote Vote Fishy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro and farside22, you seem to misunderstand the point of my plan. If the town isn't willing to lynch Fishythefish today then we should be doing something like telling him to target a PGO tonight whether or not he's going to do it. If he does then great, issue dealt with. If he doesn't then the rest of the town has lost their reason to trust him and should drop their unwillingness to lynch. Of course, if he's refusing to go along with the plan without giving objections that make sense then we should be able to go back to lynching him today.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I didn't misunderstand it at all, I just thought it through. Obviously it's a test of his willingness to follow town instruction, except we've already seen systemic deceptions and omissions from him so I've already seen enough to know that he'll put his interest ahead of the town. Furthermore, think through the example, there is basically no role, town, scum, or other where I'd be willing to off myself at night except possibly in the case of as town heading into LYLO where I'd inevitable be lynched otherwise for town to lose. Since this is obviously not the case there's no chance a rational player, which Fishy clearly is, would kill himself when he can take another chance to help himself and/or his faction. So I'd rather skip the bullshit of some faulty loyalty test and do today what you're suggesting we'll inevitably do tomorrow.

[Fishythefish]

Systematic deceptions and omissions? I didn't claim a factional ability I used last night. That's my only deception. Omissions, sure. I've been open about what I'm not telling you, and why. I think my reasons are sufficient - where do you disagree, exactly?

I'm not willing to follow town instructions. Doing so is not in my interests. However, my interests overlap enormously with the town's, and not following your instructions or not doing thing best possible thing for the town is a bad reason to lynch me.

@Zorblag: I think a guaranteed mislynch would be a tempting option at least for scum roleblockers, and more importantly it would be irresistable for other points factions. It's worth a lot to my faction to get tonight right. It's not worth a lot to us that the town doesn't need to waste a lynch on me - and it would actively hurt the town if I got roleblocked tonight. It's simply the best play for me to let someone else take the track tonight. I could lie and say I'm willing to visit a PGO, but really I don't see the point. If you're going to lynch me, better for the town it happens today than tomorrow.

@DDD - and actually everyone else who thinks I should be lynched: to what extent do you think my claims are true?

[DrippingGoofball]

Let's suppose that one group of "others" lean to help the town in a way. Does that not mean that some other group exists that would lean to help the scum in a similar way?

[Shotty to the Body]

Let's suppose that one group of "others" lean to help the town in a way. Does that not mean that some other group exists that would lean to help the scum in a similar way?

This. We have no way to know if Fishy is actually helping us or if he is extrapolating his claim from a similar point based role that wants to help scum.

[Fishythefish]

It's very hard to say - the three points factions could have any manner of points conditions. It really depends on how many people chose scum and town, which is impossible to tell at this point.

[Fishythefish]

This. We have no way to know if Fishy is actually helping us or if he is extrapolating his claim from a similar point based role that wants to help scum.

You are lynching me because you don't know I'm protown? I didn't realise we have 20 lynches today.

[Shotty to the Body]

This. We have no way to know if Fishy is actually helping us or if he is extrapolating his claim from a similar point based role that wants to help scum.

You are lynching me because you don't know I'm protown? I didn't realise we have 20 lynches today.

When you claim non-town, refuse to tell us your actions, refuse to do what we say, and admit your only going to act in your own best interest, yes, we might consider lynching you for not being pro-town.

[Ellibereth]

Fishy, who do you think is Scum/Other?

[Fishythefish]

When you claim non-town, refuse to tell us your actions, refuse to do what we say, and admit your only going to act in your own best interest, yes, we might consider lynching you for not being pro-town.

- Non-town does not mean anti-town.
- Withholding information does not, with my role type, correlate to being anti-town.
- Acting in my own best interest does not, with my role type, correlate to being anti-town.

There is

nothing

that anybody has said that says I'm anti-town. Anywhere. Do not confuse me being anti-town with me not acting in the best interests of the town 100% of the time.

Either
1. This is a dogmatic position, that you should lynch anything that doesn't share your win condition.
Or
2. You need to give some evidence that the role I'm claiming should be lynched.
Or
3. You need to give some evidence that I'm not the role I'm claiming. What have I said or done that doesn't fit perfectly with that role?

If it's 1, that's very foolish. If it's 2 or 3, show me why you think those things.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy, who do you think is Scum/Other?

Good point. Looking at players I suspect and those other people do now. I'll get back to you later tonight.

[Shotty to the Body]

A false TRIchotomy, I'm impressed. How about the known track on you? There's no proof of a busdriver, there's no proof you really are 'helping town' in your wincon. Your goal is to score points, maybe you're telling the truth about helping town earns you points or maybe you're not. You're going to say whatever you think will get you through the day so you can get closer to your wincon. When you ask me to 'give evidence' it's kind of ironic since the only evidence we have of anything from you is your word and you already told us your playing for your faction and not ours so how can we trust it? Oh, and not acting in town's best interests is pretty much the definition of being anti-town.

[Jack]

Arguing for fishy lynch = ok
ignoring everything else = anti-town

***********

##Vote:d3x

forgot the ##

[Fishythefish]

OK. Let's take that slowly.

1. The track on me does not conflict in any way with my claim. I have said why I'm not revealing that action.

2. There's no proof I'm helping the town. Equally, there's no proof that you are town. What, exactly, is the difference? Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. If you think I should be dead, you have a duty to explain why. The burden of proof is on you.

3. You can't trust my word because I admit to playing for my faction. Are you playing for your faction? I'm betting the answer is yes. You claim that faction is the town, I claim mine has the same motives as the town. Where is the difference? Why does that automatically make me less trustworthy than you?

(You are merely an example here, I'm not intending to say anything about your actual alignment)

Not acting in the town's best interests is not the definition of being anti-town that I mean here. I mean "hurting the town's chances of winning". A cop who takes no action any night is not acting in the town's best interests; nor is he antitown.

A false trichotomy? What is your fourth option? Your points seem to be flailing around my three, without wanting to come down on any of them.

If you think I'm saying whatever I think will get me through the day, all I can do is advise you to read my posts. I think it's perfectly clear that survival is not my number 1 priority here.

----

Argh! It's too much more easy and fun arguing this than scumhunting. I will not post again on myself until I have got some reads on other people.

[popsofctown]

People who want to lynch sushiface lack lots of critical thinking skills or are others.

@DGB: Doesn't matter if they win points for lynching townies. They don't KNOW who the townies are. And their actual wincon does not require the townies to die, so they can be alive in endgame and we still get declared victorious.


And there's about even chances they are protown.


The LaL wiki telling needs to stop. It's juvenile. Quit being handbook Boy Scouts and think through the situation.

[DrippingGoofball]

@DGB: Doesn't matter if they win points for lynching townies.

Did I say, "lynching?" No. For instance, Fishy says he gets extra points for transmitting his results to the TOWN.

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume

that

to be true.

What I said is, if there are more than one such faction out there, there has got to be some getting points for HELPING the scum. Like one faction gets points for transmitting results to town, one to scum, one to the Jack cult, and another one to Troll the SK.

Troll the SK. Something Troll hasn't denied. He's hoping we'll forget about my psychic meta read.

[Fishythefish]

@DGB: what is your level of confidence in you meta based read on Troll? For example, in comparison to your extremely strong and correct read on elvis knits in PYP1, if you can remember that?

[LlamaFluff]

What do you think he [chrono alignment] is any why?

@LlamaFluff, I'm still trying to work out what I think of Chronopie which is why I'm asking the questions and applying some pressure. I've had very little experience as a power role myself. I think that I've gotten a total of one PM saying what my results are from the night in all my games here but I know that was the first thing that I was interested in when that game day started. I have trouble believing that someone expecting such a PM wouldn't be checking that as soon as possible.

I'm also not quite sure what a motive cop is, but we've had one of those from the town already and it seems pretty similar to what Chronopie would be claiming to be. I'm not overly sure that I think that town should have too many more investigative roles. If we're willing to believe that farside22 is some sort of town tracker (and I think she's more likely to be town than Chronopie is at this point) then that's getting to be quite a few out already.

Is there a final conclusion from this yet? Last you have said is "He didnt pick up his result quickly" and "This game seems to have a lot of PRs". So what alignment is chrono?

[farside22]

OK. Let's take that slowly.

1. The track on me does not conflict in any way with my claim. I have said why I'm not revealing that action.

2. There's no proof I'm helping the town. Equally, there's no proof that you are town. What, exactly, is the difference? Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. If you think I should be dead, you have a duty to explain why. The burden of proof is on you.

3. You can't trust my word because I admit to playing for my faction. Are you playing for your faction? I'm betting the answer is yes. You claim that faction is the town, I claim mine has the same motives as the town. Where is the difference? Why does that automatically make me less trustworthy than you?

1. You didn't claim going anywhere till I caught you in withholding information. How is that town?
2. Yeah let me out myself that looks so scummy. Hey all did you note I'm a tracker and fishy didn't deny after the fact that he didn't go somewhere.
The cop got a not town results. The person you went to says he was roleblocked and your doing something at night that is for your faction not in town's interest in my view
3) because you with held information which means there is more to what you are not saying that = not trustworthy.

[DrippingGoofball]

@DGB: what is your level of confidence in you meta based read on Troll? For example, in comparison to your extremely strong and correct read on elvis knits in PYP1, if you can remember that?

I'm more certain that Troll is SK than I was certain of elvis being scum. The combination of him choosing his side and his very unusual play/mood are deciding factors.

[DrippingGoofball]

..."This game seems to have a lot of PRs". So what alignment is chrono?

And what kind of alignment would complain about there being a lot of PRs? We don't even know if there are a lot of PRs, only that we have a few out early. The thought didn't occur to me to tally up PRs in my head, even unconsciously, because PRs are a good thing. Now, if PRs were a bad thing for me, I would keep track, and maybe voice my displeasure out loud disguised as a neutral comment.

[Jack]

What quote makes you think he is saying that? The more investigative roles we have claimed, the more likely it is that one of them is scum, don't you think.

[DrippingGoofball]

What quote makes you think he is saying that? The more investigative roles we have claimed, the more likely it is that one of them is scum, don't you think.

How many we got? Two?