Star Wars Mafia (Game Over)

[Kdub]

Vote Count

d3x (1)

- Kthxbye

wolframnhart (0)

-

ooba (0)

-

Kast (0)

-

Toon Fighter (3)

- Scott Brosius, LynchMePls, wolframnhart

Dragon Phoenix (0)

-

Slicey (0)

-

LynchMePls (0)

-

AlmasterGM (0)

-

Scott Brosius (0)

-

danakillsu (0)

-

FC Groningen (0)

-

Kthxbye (0)

-

bv310 (0)

-

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (10)

- d3x, ooba, Kast, Toon Fighter, Dragon Phoenix, Slicey, AlmasterGM, danakillsu, FC Groningen, bv310

14 votes available, 8 votes needed to lynch

Deadline is June 3, ~ 7 pm PDT

[Kthxbye]

I'm voting d3x, not wolf.

Fixed

[danakillsu]

Here's a little setup speculation that may or may not be useful. The kill flavor that was used on Jabba clearly indicates Grand Moff Tarkin (the only man in the Empire who ever attempts to use torture). Since the Emperor simply has to be part of the Empire scumteam, there are at least two buddies of SOG out there. Jabba has a few possibilities of scumpals besides Greedo, but none that would absolutely have to be in this game, so I'd say there's probably one, but maybe none left on that team. Also, I'm here to answer questions, so if there are any I missed in my read, please let me know.

[LimMePls]

@dana what do you think of the ToonFighter bw? what do you think about kthxbye's post and vote?

I think Kthxbye makes some very good points although I still like my vote at the moment.

[bv310]

I have to say, kthxbye makes a pretty solid case.

Vote: d3x

[wolframnhart]

mod i think we need a replacement for FC?

FC has been prodded.

[danakillsu]

I think that TF is a VI, as usual. As far as Kthxbye or whatever his name is, I think he makes valid points. I do find d3x somewhat scummy. But I'm not really ready to vote yet.

[LimMePls]

What is the best play if you think someone is VI? The game continues if they get lynched, right? If we lynched a VI and then the remaining scum, does that count as a victory for us, or just not a loss?

[Kthxbye]

VI = village idiot I think. If not, fill me in because as of right now LMP's p882 make zero sense to me.

[AlmasterGM]

What is the best play if you think someone is VI? The game continues if they get lynched, right? If we lynched a VI and then the remaining scum, does that count as a victory for us, or just not a loss?

VI isn't usually an actual role. It just refers to someone who plays really poorly.

Kthxbye has a good case.

Vote: d3x

[LimMePls]

Yes VI = village idiot. dana suggests that ToonFighter is a village idiot. I'm wondering what the best play is when you have a VI in the game. Do you just lynch them anyways and get on with the game?

My mafia experience all comes from real life games, and we never had a village idiot, so I'm just not sure what the town should do about village idiots.

[wolframnhart]

Kinda depends. Some ignore a VI, others lynch them or ask that if there is a vig in the game to kill them and get rid of the distraction, myself I treat them like any player, if i think they are scummy i don't care if they are VI, i will build a case and go after them, because there is just as good a chance they are IS (idiot scum).

[Toon Fighter]

I have re-read the last few pages, and payed attention to Kthxbye's case. It is a good case, and I will

vote: d3x

, and will keep my vote on him until he defends himself.

Dana, with your last two posts you didn't really participate in the game. First, you speculated on setup (I agree with you, and I believe that there are two scum teams, with three players each). Then, you just commented on two bandwagons/suspects and didn't vote for any of them. Who else do you find suspicious?

I understand SB's atitude against me, but there was something off in him. It seems he was pressuring and trying to quicklynch me.

I also know that I have been somewhat a VI, and trying to better that.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Real life interfered yesterday, try tonight or tomorrow night. I'll give d3x top rio given recent developments.

[LimMePls]

I understand SB's atitude against me, but there was something off in him. It seems he was pressuring and trying to quicklynch me.

Could you please point out where he is "pressuring and trying to quicklynch" you? I know I was pressuring you, although I certainly wasn't trying to quick lynch. It appears to be the only way to get you to participate.

Toon, when you are in a game, and a player lurks to the point of near null participation, do you think the town is justified in voting for that person in an attempt to stimulate participation? Do you think lurkers are more or less likely to be scum? If a lurker isn't scum, are they helping the town win with their lurking?

[LimMePls]

I'd really like to hear from d3x, but he hasn't been on since last Monday.

Mod, can we get a prod on d3x?

He has been prodded.

[danakillsu]

I think barring any other scum suspects that lynching a VI isn't a bad thing to do. However, I find that very townie people are joining the d3x wagon, so there may be some investigation results for them to base their votes on. Also, I already said that I do find him somewhat scummy, so I guess I'm ready to vote now.

vote:d3x

And I find it ridiculous that Toon Fighter is kind of wagging his finger at me for non-contribution.

[Kast]

Hi guys, scanned through.

Really not liking danakillsu, especially the last two posts. Voting just because "very townie people are joining" is terrible justification. The whole saying he might be suspicious of someone, but only if it looks like the rest of the town is also suspicious jumps out as scum trying to blend.

The suggestion that someone on the wagon might have investigation results also reads like weak fishing. Combine this with dana's earlier attempts to pressure/discredit/fish for more info from our claimed cop (CMAR) and then repeats this again with our second claimed cop.

RC and Dana were also the two guys convinced that HP [Leaves] had to be Darth Vader and that Darth Vader was present in the game as a scum PR. Now he is claiming Grand Moff Tarkin, another very specific character, with a specific ability which is NOT what Tarkin was known for (Vader is probably best known for torture, interrogation droids probably next best, and after that it's pretty much a free for all with torture widely used by lots of imperials). I'm strongly suspecting that Dana and RC probably pre-game talked about Vader being in the game or someone on Jabba's team may have had some setup info about Vader/the Empire.

Vote: Danakillsu

@D3x wagon-
I don't see it. Out of the points kthxbye raised:
-Possible warning his buddy to fake claim is plausible.
-D3x didn't say there is only one group, his post clearly reads that we should scumhunt and kill suspicious people until we find a second scum group, instead of trying to figure out who the second scumgroup is and shoot blindly at possible pairings. He states this explicitly. This point is a huge misrep.
-What exactly is wrong with warning against a quicklynch and pointing out that the we should be careful of who gets the bounty? I agree that D3x's initial post was not as helpful as direct coordination to ensure that BV got the Shield, but it was certainly better than saying nothing and leaving the SoG votes as a FFA.
-Objecting to the L-1 vote is a load of BS. This was part of town coordination to ensure that BV got the shield. There is no way you can spin this as anti-town.
-Pushing for a SB investigation could be done by scum, but also could easily be town. Given that D3x already stated suspicion of SB, and plenty of other players were also suspicious of SB, including BV, then it remains at most a null tell.

[LimMePls]

On a reread I didn't think dana was as scummy as I originally thought, and downgraded my suspicion of him. I agree with you however that the "I find that very townie people are joining the d3x wagon" line is really glaring, so I'm starting to lean back that way again.

@Kast What do you think about the ToonFighter bw?

I like my vote where it is for now.

[Kast]

@LMP-
On initial read, I also thought TF came across more as a VI than actual scum.

I'd rather lynch Dana and see investigation on either D3x (since clearly BV and a lot of people disagree with my take on kthxbye's case), possibly TF, or some other target pending Dana's flip.

Side note-If Dana flips Jabba's mafia team, then I would strongly suspect that his really weird Grand Moff Tarkin speculation is based on game setup info (ie. they may have been told that the X, Y, and Z are characters in the Empire).

[LimMePls]

Now he is claiming Grand Moff Tarkin, another very specific character, with a specific ability which is NOT what Tarkin was known for (Vader is probably best known for torture, interrogation droids probably next best, and after that it's pretty much a free for all with torture widely used by lots of imperials). I'm strongly suspecting that Dana and RC probably pre-game talked about Vader being in the game or someone on Jabba's team may have had some setup info about Vader/the Empire.

You know, I kind of thought the idea of Tarkin as torturer made sense, but because Kast just suggested his flavor doesn't fit, I went and found an online copy of the script. Tarkin is never directly involved in anyones torture, although Vader does come and report to Tarkin about Leia's "resistance to the mind probe". Tarkin also does sort of psychologically torture Leia with the whole "tell us or we'll blow up your planet" moment. Vader is in the scene of Leia's torture in Ep 4 (along with the "mind probe" droid thing) and has Han tortured in Ep 5. That being said, we know Vader is dead, so the torturing has to be someone else. It's interesting that dana made the leap to Tarkin, but I'm not sure that is damning. I was sort of thinking the same thing.

Is 6 mafia about right for this size game? If so, assuming an even 3/3 split, then Jabba's team only has 1 player left, and they clearly have the vibroblade killing. Vader is dead, so assuming the emperor is in the game, that leaves one other role which has a "tortured" kill flavor. Tarkin may not be a perfect fit, but lets look at this hypothetical setup from the mod's point of view. You've made a 3 person empire team with Emperor, Vader, and Tarkin. Emperor's kill flavor would likely be lightning, Vader's is the cut in half we saw earlier, and you need a flavor for Tarkin. Torture is probably about as good as any other flavor you could come up with.

@Kast Your post 849 says

I'm assuming Jabba's team killed FS and the Empire killed RC.

RC was tortured to death. You suspect the empire did the RC kill. Vader is dead. Who is the next most likely character to appear on the Empire team and use torture as a kill flavor? It's gotta be Tarkin, right? Unless it's the torture droid, I can't really think of a better fit.

Now that I've written this whole message, I'm not even sure if all this setup speculation is doing us much good, but I'm posting this anyways because I've gone through the trouble of writing it up.

[Kast]

@LMP-
-The Emperor could also work as a torturer. He clearly enjoys laughing maniacally while zapping people with force lightning.

Technically, you could get away with claiming Tarkin psychologically tortured Leia...that doesn't really fit with a kill method. It does create a funny mental image to ponder psychologically torturing Jabba to death...

I don't think Tarkin actually has a torture-NK. I find it much more plausible that Dana suggested Tarkin as a setup for future town cred in case we lynch Tarkin. Then Dana could claim he called it first. This would necessitate that Dana knows Tarkin is present in this game.

-Scum team size.
Knowns:
--22 Players
--1 Indep Survivor
--2 (at least) Different Mafia Teams

My thoughts:
I would assume at least 7 scum in a 22 man game (could include mafia and/or SKs). It does not appear that we have any serial killers. Our two mafia teams probably have 3-5 and 3-4 members to begin with.

If both groups are 3 man, then they would need to be very powerful, there would need to be anti-town third party roles, or town would need to be very weak. A combination of those three factors could also work to balance.

Personal speculation, I think most likely is a 4-man Empire mafia and a 3-man Scum mafia. I would guess there is one more third party besides the survivor (the third party may or may not be able to win with town). I think that would feel pretty balanced.

[d3x]

Note- I haven't read the thread {though I saw there was a Wagon on me}. I'm posting as I read, so some of this may have been asked/answered. Warning:

Huge

Catch-up Wall follows {I'm really sorry}...

@

Kast849

-

Nice job on Jabba's death.

Who exactly are you congratulating on Jabba's death? Your next sentence says that you believe the Empire Scum killed him. This is a bit weird to me.

@

Lynch851

- This is exactly why I was pushing to slow yesterday down. We got no information aside from the Lynch that we were going to get regardless. We had multiple players go without posting. This does not help the Town even if the Lynch is a good Lynch.

after a re-read with current information, I'm moving dana off my probable scum list.

Why? What changed your mind about him?

@

SB855

- RC's Scum list makes me laugh. WS {Scum}, sog {Imperial}, and SB {'Innocent'} coming from the Scum GodFather.

Point of order. I do not like TF858.

@

TF858

- Why didn't you like sog for Scum? If you liked the "Lynch vitcims" from D1&2, why weren't you anywhere near the Wagons? Note- I'm not asking why you didn't Hammer. I don't think you mentioned hp once and only mentioned Wreck Star in your very first post. Can you point us to where you 'suspected' either Lynchee?

We got lucky that SOG was actually scum, but if was town we would have mislynched

How is a misLynch {especially the first} that bad for Town? It's not the best case scenario, but we get valuable information on misLynches. Are you expecting this game to go through with no misLynches?

FoS:TF

{insert intent to upgrade this and Vote TF here once I confirm that there isn't a better case/he's not at L-1}

@

TF861

- When in the future? Have you yet in this game?

@

DP865

through

DP872

-

I have difficulty imagining scum to come up with such a suggestion as he did.

Is this 'too scummy to be Scum' or am I misreading you and missing something? Also are you planning on doing everyone in iso? If not, why did you pick those you picked? Regardless I'd like to know why you chose the order you chose to do your Isos.

@

Kthx874

- There's the case on me. Well, I can't say that you don't have a point, but I do say that your case could be stronger. First off, you left out my D1 Hammer on a 3rd party without making with the recap that I'd promised. You also didn't say anything about the mild defense then hard reversal on WS. Finally, you didn't go into my general Lurking. Aside from all of that, I'll now respond to your case after throwing out that I think you're probably Town {although you're stretching a bit on some of your points}. For those of you who don't know, Kthx and I have a history and he usually goes after me at least once in our games {here and especially off-site}.

Looks like 'hey, get a fake claim in there buddy. This bounty on you is screwing us'.

It should look like 'I don't want us to QuickLynch a potentially Town aligned PR considering he's been tracked performing a Night Action that he doesn't want to be outted'. Also of note is the fact that I said that the Bounty's are Null at best. I felt that it could've been a tool used by Scum to 'softConfirm' their own players. While highly unlikely, we still don't actually have confirmation that this didn't happen.

Taking what we know now (that there are indeed 2 scum groups) this looks like d3x trying to convince us that we should only worry about one.

Now this is a load of bull. Point to the place where I say there is only 1 ScumGroup. I clearly say that there may very well be more than 1 and I'm not ruling it out, I just think that setup speculation on multiple groups is distracting and less beneficial than actually ScumHunting.

Take note of him 'not liking the quick lynch'

I don't like QuickLynches. I seem to remembner winning a game as Scum that we just played in by getting something like 3 back-to-back QuickLynches. One {which I personally pushed} was even Confirmed Scum on my team.

trying to continue the day in hopes of getting Vader off the hook with 'more conversation'

I was not against a sog Lynch, I was against a QuickLynch {see p799}. Either way, I knew the risks when I asked to slow the Day down {if/when the Lynchee flipped Scum}.

worry over the bounty, and the big one 'everyone is gunning for the shield'. Really? The way I read it was everyone wanted our investigative role to have it

First, you're taking things out of context here. I posted that in p808, getting the shield to bv wasn't suggested until Kast816. Hindsight may be 20/20, but apparently, it can't count.

If everyone is gunning for the shield, why would you then put the L-1 down?

To ensure that bv got it. What am I missing here? Note the timestamps. I was online when bv was and I wanted to make sure he got it. The explanations had to wait until afterwards otherwise a simulpost L-1 would've f*ed it up, as I said.

If you don't think the bounty on sog was a good thing and think it was a mistake, then why do this?

I didn't say it was a bad thing or a mistake, I said it was hastening a Wagon that wasn't 100% sound. I still feel that this was a motivation.

If you thought conversation was going to be stifled due to this lynch happening fast, the why did you participate? How do your actions of getting on the band wagon halt the quick lynch?

Three reasons: 1. I felt that there was a fair chance sog was Scum 2. Hardly anyone was listening to me {Lynch805 actually agreed that we should take our time with yesterday} and the Wagon wasn't going to slow down 3. Securing the shield for bv.

Of course, in my experience you wouldn't know he's the Godfather unless he told you his role flat out OR he told you he's the emperor and you guessed as much.

If we were on the same side, I'd know he was the GodFather {assuming he is, which I currently am not}.

@

dana891

- Lmao

I think barring any other scum suspects that lynching a VI isn't a bad thing to do.

read- misLynches are good

However, I find that very townie people are joining the d3x wagon,

read- and I want to look more townie

so there may be some investigation results for them to base their votes on.

read-RoleFishing

Also, I already said that I do find him somewhat scummy, so I guess I'm ready to vote now.

read- so if/when he flips TownAligned, my ass is covered

And I find it ridiculous that Toon Fighter is kind of wagging his finger at me for non-contribution.

read- buss

FoS:danakillsu

{insert intent to upgrade this and Vote dan here once I confirm that there isn't a better case/he's not at L-1. I'm liking dan better than TF atm}

@

Kast892

- Well it's going to be a hard sell convincing people that I didn't read this before responding to the above posts {specifically Kthx's and dan's}. This is just one reason I don't like people providing defenses of others, but whatever.

@

Kast894

- /waiting for accusations of me being your GodFather in yet another Star Wars themed game...

@

Kast894

/

Lynch895

- There is an easeir way to figure this Role speculation out.

@

dan

- Why do you say that GMT is "the only man in the Empire who ever attempts to use torture"?

@

Lynch895

-

I'm not even sure if all this setup speculation is doing us much good

This. I stand behind my original premise that speculation is distracting and in most every case to be avoided. The only thing this helps with is if someone Claims Grand Moff Tarkin. And they'd be a moron to do it even without the speculation.

@

Kast896

-

I would assume at least 7 scum in a 22 man game (could include mafia and/or SKs). It does not appear that we have any serial killers.

I'm actually inclined to believe that we may have an SK and the Jabba Scum group couldn't NK {only place Bounties}. The 'swallowed' thing weirds me out though. This gives the potential that the Rancor or Sarlacc could be in the game {either would be JabbaScum and potentially only be allowed to NK after Jabba dies}. The lack of a VibroNK last Night could be attributed to Shield, Doc Save, WIFOM No Kill, or something completely different.

See, this is why I don't like setup speculation. It gets us no where.

And with a quick...

Preview edit...

I'm good with a

Vote:danakillsu

, but I'd be happy with TF or AGM swinging as well.

[LimMePls]

after a re-read with current information, I'm moving dana off my probable scum list.

Why? What changed your mind about him?

I'll iso him and put up some of the quotes that struck me as more town on the second re-read. However, since my post saying I was moving him off my probable scum list he has said some scummy things, so he is now back on there.

{Lynch805 actually agreed that we should take our time with yesterday}

I still think D3 went way to fast. I'd have liked a lot more discussion, and some prods on people who are now getting prods. I also wasn't comfortable with how the bounty was steering our play. The only bad thing that could have come from taking our time is we maybe could have been convinced to not lynch him, but that seems HIGHLY unlikely. SOG was doomed when WS tracked him and then outted him before his lynch. Why did we need to rush it?

[d3x]

Why did we need to rush it?

Are you asking me? I didn't want to rush it. I Hammered for the reasons I laid out in the all-too-lengthy p897.