Pledge of Allegiance (Game Over! Page 76)

[Zorblag]

@Ellibereth, if I claim today it won't be to prevent my death. If I claim it will be because it lets me share any information I might have with the town before I die, because I feel that my any information I might have will be helpful to share now rather than later or because we're doing some form of mass claim.

If I made the sort of claim you seem to think I'd give today it would be because the town had decided that I was the right lynch to make and we had someone ready to hammer.

@DrippingGoofball, I do sometimes tunnel when I've picked up what I think is a scum tell as town. I certainly did it to you in Tofu mafia when you were talking about possible scum pairings. I don't go out of my way to try to do it but I'm a bit surprised that you don't think I'm doing it to popsofctown this game given that you seem to be convinced he's town based on his reaction to your fake vig.

@Chronopie, what motivation would I have to give Fishythefish answers to use for later? How likely do you think it is that's I'm a Serial Killer at this point? How likely do you think it is that I'm mafia?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[zoraster]

Day 2 Vote Count

charter ( 0 )
Chronopie ( 0 )
d3x ( 0 )
Debonair Danny DiPietro ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 5 ) charter Zorblag Shotty to the Body RedCoyote farside22
Gammagooey ( 0 )
imaginality ( 0 )
Jack ( 1 ) popsofctown
StrangerCoug ( 0 )
LLamaFluff ( 0 )
Nicodemus ( 5 ) fishythefish Ellibereth UncertainKitten Debonair Danny DiPietro Jack
phate ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 0 )
Shotty to the Body ( 1 ) Nicodemus
UncertainKitten ( 0 )
Plum ( 0 )
Zorblag ( 6 ) Plum LLamaFluff DrippingGoofball Gammagooey StrangerCoug Chronopie
Not Voting ( 3 ) phate imaginality d3x
Total Votes ( 21 )

Deadline: May 24th at 11:00 EDT
With 21 able to vote, 11 needed to lynch.

[Chronopie]

@Chronopie, what motivation would I have to give Fishythefish answers to use for later? How likely do you think it is that's I'm a Serial Killer at this point? How likely do you think it is that I'm mafia?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Possible buddy.
Moderate chance, DGB makes a compelling case for you being SK, based on your past meta.
Lower chance than you being some form of other, but I'm not going to rule it out entirely.

[Zorblag]

@Chronopie, actually, just to be clear here, are you currently voting for me because you think I might be working with Fishythefish in some way? You don't seem to have said anything else about me that I can see.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chronopie]

Pretty much. Would like you to claim though.

[Chronopie]

That and DGB's case.

[Zorblag]

@Chornopie, so you think that I'm likely to be allied with Fishythefish in some way and passing him information in the game thread. That possibility makes me a better spot for your vote than Fishythefish who you know to be other despite the fact that I'd have no reason to pass information this blatantly if I'm in his faction (when I could do it by quick topic,) and he's apparently competing against the other factions that we know of.

Once again you can color me unimpressed on that front.

The other option is that you think I'm a Serial Killer and somehow would have a reason to help Fishythefish with answers to give to questions despite the fact that I've been voting for him pretty much all day. I'm not sure why that interpretation makes any more sense.

What is it about DrippingGoofball's meta case that you find compelling? Could you summarize it for me so that I can see what you think she's been saying?

I assume that you've been reading my conversation with Ellibereth about claiming. I'll not your desire to have me claim but it's not going to change the conditions in which I'd do it.

How likely do you think that Nicodemus is to be other or mafia at this point? Since you didn't answer about how likely you think I am to be mafia should I assume that you don't think that it's particularly likely?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[imaginality]

##Vote: Nicodemus

I feel better about Troll than about Nicodemus, who could definitely be lurkery scum. If I went with voting Troll it would be solely on the basis of DGB's meta read on him. I'd rather wait longer with him because I think that will help us get better reads on him, whereas we won't get much more from Nico from waiting longer.

I also agree with

Regardless, there was more non-town than fishy on this:

xvart ( 8 ) Ellibereth LLamaFluff ojanen Nicodemus fishythefish charter UncertainKitten VP Baltar

I think Nico is scum on that wagon. (As for the others - I feel fairly sure about Elli, Llama, ojanen and UK being town. I'm okay with how Plum's played since replacing in for VP. charter I think could be scum or other based on how hard he pushed for Fish-lynch.)

farside's pushing for Fish-lynch seems more genuine to me; I disagree with the logic but think she's prob town. DDD might well be another Other faction though (not so likely scum because of voting pops; I still lean scum on pops).

[UncertainKitten]

Has Nico even posted since this wagon sprung up on him?

SUSPICIOUS I THINK~!

[Chronopie]

You're right on the in-thread coaching, I didn't think that through. But it was tilting my scumdar (which I will admit, is underdeveloped).

DGB's scumhunting skills are reputed to be good, and afaik, she's been saying that your play this game is unlike either your town or scum metas. She's also indicated that you've always wanted to be an SK, and stated that your play is 'glowing'. This to me indicates that DGB believes that you finally got the the role that you've wanted i.e. SK

@Chronopie, [snip] How likely do you think it is that I'm mafia?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[snip]
Lower chance than you being some form of other, but I'm not going to rule it out entirely.

I'm undecided on Nicodemus, but I don't think he's town either.

[Zorblag]

@Chronopie, what do you think the chances are that I'm town at this point? Would it be higher or lower than my chances of being mafia?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chronopie]

Lower. I'm leaning towards Other>Mafia>Town.

[Zorblag]

@Chronopie, that's an interesting order. It seems that you have a fair amount of faith in DrippingGoofball's meta and she's saying that I'm not playing like scum or town. There should be more town in the game than scum in general (and by a fair amount for this game is my current guess.) Is there something other than DrippingGoofball's meta that you're working with to come to that conclusion?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[popsofctown]

Has Nico even posted since this wagon sprung up on him?

SUSPICIOUS I THINK~!

http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=11

I was reminded of Dinosaur Comics.

Why is Jack alive?

[Chronopie]

My own assumptions for this game is that many dislike being the uninformed majority, therefore the uninformed is going to be smaller than a typical game.
Consider that we have 6+ non-hostile others, and a hostile other category (i.e SK), and jack hasn't denied being cult. therefore we can assume at least 8 other, probably at least 4 Scum, possible more. So far 12/24 non-town.

Additionally there appears to be a high concentration of PRs, which would indicate to me that either all sides have alot of Power, making for a very interesting game, or the actual town is small.

[Zorblag]

@Chronopie, we had at least enough people pick town for Ojanen to be a vanilla townie (one of our two town flips thus far.) I'm also not asking why you think I'm less likely to be town than not-town, I'm specifically asking why you think I'm less likely to be town than mafia. Unless specifically think that the mafia outnumber the town here you should have some reason to think that I've been acting more like mafia than town.

For what it's worth, DrippingGoofball's meta reason for me not picking mafia (not wanting to work with others outside the game thread) is better than her meta reason for me not picking town (that scum hunting isn't my strongest skill) as I enjoy challenging myself and trying to improve on the things that I know I'm not great at.

In any case, I'm off now to help someone get ready for a calculus test. It feels like you (and this isn't just you but you're the one answering my questions just now) are voting for me because you haven't figured out who you think is most likely to be scum and it's easier to go along with the push DrippingGoofball is making. Others have expressed reasons outside that to find me suspicious; I don't particularly agree that they should make me seem suspicious but at least I know they're working things out for themselves. It's your vote to cast and if you do think that lynching me today is the best chance the town has to get rid of scum then in then end I can live with that (well, outside the game; I'm not sure I'll be doing that much more living here.) I do want you to mean it if you're keeping it there though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DrippingGoofball]

Why is Jack alive?

Some people would like to be recruited?

[DrippingGoofball]

I've never seen Zorblag sweet-talk before.

[Zorblag]

@DrippingGoofball, it shows up in my newbie games more often. People don't particularly like being simply told that they're wrong but I often need to get them to realize some point they're missing. Circling in to a point via questions and then asking them to take time to consider what's happened is one of my approaches. Here I'm probably being a bit more sharp about it if anything.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[charter]

What happens in end game situations if all these "others" begin to outnumber the townies?

This is reason number 2 of 2 reasons I came up with. I'll say reason 1 on a later day.

Ok, I was wrong about Balter, Plum's 759 is so town.

Care to give reasoning behind this?

How Gamma argued we should keep Fishy alive in 676.


Scum/not town
RC
Nico
Gamma
d3x
Fishy
Jack
probably some others

Catching up was no fun. That was literally ten pages of just about nothing.
Still need to lynch Fishy. I'm having this massive internal struggle between not lynching Fishy who has claimed not town and wasting my vote by keeping it on him and it's hurting.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

We can begin by lynching Troll.

Then we can vig Nico.

It's very simple, kids.

Jack, StrangerCoug, imaginality, pops, d3x, Phate, Nico >>> unproductive voters.

GET ON WITH THE BIZNIS

Wait, so we had two kills last night. Let's make the not at all unreasonable assumption that one of them was a mafia kill. You've also claimed that Zorblag is an SK and we'll presume responsible for the other kill. Where do we get this mythical vig to kill Nicodemus with after killing SK-Zorblag in your fantasy world?

~~~

I really wouldn't mind lynching pops because of his late vote on an unlikely to be lynched target in Jack.

~~~

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, the main purpose of the plan is to demonstrate to the town that Fishythefish shouldn't be trusted to to act in the town's best interest. If we're not lynching him today then without something like that I don't see any reason to think that we'll be doing it later either and I don't think that we want to have someone who we know isn't town and hasn't been completely upfront with us around indefinitely.

Well if that was the goal then it hasn't worked on the majority of the town.

[Fishythefish]

@Fishythefish, I actually said that I don't like that you're finding more things that you are willing to share, not things that you're not willing to share. The new information that all of your abilities contribute to points based on who you target is specifically what I had in mind. I'd sort of expect that if one of the other two factions had a roleblock the same thing would apply to them. Unless they gained or lost points for targeting others with it it'd actually be an advantage to the third faction if they were to target you with it. Doing so would stop either of your two factions from getting points that night but leave a competitor without that restriction. There's also some question as to how many times it could be used but you seem to think that keeping that information from us is useful for some reason.

It's true that another other faction might be failing to get points for a night if they roleblocked me. On the other hand, they'd prevent us doing anything useful on a key night, and probably get me lynched. I'd say that was a good trade.

[Fishythefish]

@charter:
1. Do you believe my claim? If not, why not?
2. Do you think the role I've claimed should be lynched? If so, why?
If you think my claim might be largely true, then you simply cannot afford to waste 5 or more lynches on non-hostile others, some of whom are not working against the town.

[RedCoyote]

If you think my claim might be largely true, then you simply cannot afford to waste 5 or more lynches on non-hostile others, some of whom are not working against the town.

You might want me gone, but you don't have enough lynches to kill off a large number of non-hostile others.

No. No, no, no, no, no. This is exactly the strawman that I've addressed multiple times in multiple posts today. No one here, not me, not farside, charter, DDD, or whoever else, have said they want to sit here and focus on non-hostile others. That's not the point at all. I only speak for myself, but I suspect everyone else voting you feels the same way. Players that aren't town are to be lynched as they're revealed. Period. The best thing about your lynch, Fishy, is that there is no downside. Either you flip non-hostile, hostile, or scum. You yourself have eliminated any chance that you are sided with the town. Just lynching you is no ultimatum that the town is decided to lynch all non-hostile others. Heck, if I was caught roleblocking (or using an action that led to roleblocking), I would probably do the same thing you are, "I'm non-hostile and the town needs to focus on someone else".

---

So Llama, UK, DGB, Plum, imaginality, and whoever else are all convinced that Fishy is telling us the pure and honest truth, and there's no possible way he could be hostile other or scum. Why would he concoct some sort of story? UK has gone so far as to threaten any future non-hostile claims with a vote from her if they don't fess up immediately. A threat so motivating that I'm positively quivering as I type it. The thing is, Fishy has declined to work with the town. He refuses to use his actions to benefit us, or even tell us what his actions are. He refuses to visit a PGO. He refuses to out his partner(s). I can live with letting known anti-town live if for only the benefit of the town, but even that, I think, is being reasonable. What I don't get, however, is completely selling out the town and town PRs on the idea that Fishy is being 100% honest. Fishy is being honest alright,

non-hostile others, some of whom are not working against the town.

"Some of whom are not working against the town". Fishy just happens to be the one non-hostile working for the town's benefit, hm? Fishy's honesty tells us that these non-hostiles are, in large part, working against the town. It's extremely aggravating for there to be people who want to bend over backwards for Fishy here. Why? What possible town motivation is there in trying to keep Fishy alive?

Let's not try to outguess the Mod, especially in a game like this. These players either told the Mod they wanted to be town or they didn't. Let's not assume every player who says they're non-hostile is telling the truth, please.

[Fishythefish]

@RC: there is no chance I'm town. There is pretty much no downside to me being dead. But to kill me, you have to use a lynch. You do not have many lynches.

I've never said that non-hostiles are mostly against the town. I've got no idea about that.

If you were the mod, and got (for example) 12 town picks, 6 scum picks and 6 other picks, can you imagine how difficult it would be to balance the game? There is absolutely no way you can produce a setup where town can indiscriminately lynch non-town and win. It's reasonable to assume that, if I'm telling the truth about these factions, town lynching a random non-town player each day

is a guaranteed loss

.

You say you don't want to focus on non-hostile others; but that's exactly what you are doing today. Completely ignoring the scum to lynch someone who is not a threat to you. It may well be the case that you have another non-hostile outed tonight, with three more players dead in the morning. What will you do about that one?

Your strategy relies on ignorance! If you had some extra alignment information, you would be guaranteed to lose the game. It seems to me that a strategy like that simply can't be good for the town.