Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[dybeck]

@dybeck: It doesn't benefit either a PR or scum (which would be the two that know more of the mechanics) but a PR would know not to open their mouth and paint a target on their back like revealing mechanics would.

Makes sense.

Scum, however, do like to reveal what they know and try to look more intelligent so they reveal facts that would give them "townie cred" for trying to think about something that townies would have no clue about.

REALLY? Scum... always chatting away... giving away their abilities... letting everyone know what their powers are... Especially when it helps town out by advising them of the hidden negative consequences of town actions...

Amished - you're out of your mind.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Espeonage (6) -- Faraday, NickF227, Jahudo, farside22, Seraphim, Amished
Seraphim (5) -- boberz, Javert, Albert B. Rampage, Espeonage, dybeck
Amished (1) -- Ojanen

Not voting: curiouskarmadog
13 alive, 7 to lynch.

Deadline: 26th of May

[Seraphim]

Javert: you raise some good points. I had forgotten BV's reaction to the role fishing incident which definitely strikes me as odd and not scummy.

However, I just don't see any other wagon forming today besides Esp's and my own and I do not exactly relish being lynched if there's an alternative. Certainly if deadline swings around and nothing is changing, I will self-vote and prevent a no lynch. But otherwise...well...

Javert: do you think I am a worthy alternative to the Espeonage lynch?

[Amished]

I hate how stubborn this town is, btw.

@Javert: If either of them are scum, Espy has much more chance of being scum than Seraphim I believe. Espy knows his meta (therefore *can* tailor it). However, his activity can also be explained by scum not wanting to post a lot and fade into the background. As soon as anybody brings up their own meta; you really can't trust it overall.

For your reference to 222: I've seen scum do that. Course, they got lynched for it; but I've seen scum do that.

@dybeck: Here, let's follow this flow chart:

Who has the information that you provided through their role's?
(A: Scum and Power Roles)

Power Role branch:
Would they paint a target on their back (also known as: are you un-NKable):
(A: No)

Therefore, no Power Role reason.

Scum branch:
Do you have a NK that's against you:
(A: No)

Are you therefore more open to revealing information since you won't die at night?:
(A: Yes)

Is human nature such that people like to brag about stuff they know?
(A: Yes)

Have *I* {Amished} been caught as scum by revealing too much from a scum role?:
(A: Yes)

So, pretty much the only motivation for you to reveal the information you have (whatever motivation it is) is NOT from a townie.

Now if only everybody felt this way

[Amished]

I hate how stubborn this town is, btw.

@Javert: If either of them are scum, Espy has much more chance of being scum than Seraphim I believe. Espy knows his meta (therefore *can* tailor it). However, his activity can also be explained by scum not wanting to post a lot and fade into the background. As soon as anybody brings up their own meta; you really can't trust it overall.

For your reference to 222: I've seen scum do that. Course, they got lynched for it; but I've seen scum do that.

@dybeck: Here, let's follow this flow chart:

Who has the information that you provided through their role's?
(A: Scum and Power Roles)

Power Role branch:
Would they paint a target on their back (also known as: are you un-NKable):
(A: No)

Therefore, no Power Role reason.

Scum branch:
Do you have a NK that's against you:
(A: No)

Are you therefore more open to revealing information since you won't die at night?:
(A: Yes)

Is human nature such that people like to brag about stuff they know?
(A: Yes)

Have *I* {Amished} been caught as scum by revealing too much from a scum role?:
(A: Yes)

So, pretty much the only motivation for you to reveal the information you have (whatever motivation it is) is NOT from a townie.

Now if only everybody felt this way

[boberz]

I hate how stubborn this town is, btw.

@Javert: If either of them are scum, Espy has much more chance of being scum than Seraphim I believe. Espy knows his meta (therefore *can* tailor it). However, his activity can also be explained by scum not wanting to post a lot and fade into the background. As soon as anybody brings up their own meta; you really can't trust it overall.

For your reference to 222: I've seen scum do that. Course, they got lynched for it; but I've seen scum do that.

@dybeck: Here, let's follow this flow chart:

Who has the information that you provided through their role's?
(A: Scum and Power Roles)

Power Role branch:
Would they paint a target on their back (also known as: are you un-NKable):
(A: No)

Therefore, no Power Role reason.

Scum branch:
Do you have a NK that's against you:
(A: No)

Are you therefore more open to revealing information since you won't die at night?:
(A: Yes)

Is human nature such that people like to brag about stuff they know?
(A: Yes)

Have *I* {Amished} been caught as scum by revealing too much from a scum role?:
(A: Yes)

So, pretty much the only motivation for you to reveal the information you have (whatever motivation it is) is NOT from a townie.

Now if only everybody felt this way

I dont actually disagree with you on this element of what you have been saying. I seek a slightly different disagreement.

That is, I am not convinved he has given info away that is the priviledged knowledge of PRs and scum. Fair enough he gave a very specific idea more specific than any others but I do not see how it was likely to have come from a priviledged decision.

[Javert]

1.)

Getting back to Amished's request:

Ok, now moving on, dealing with 5 scum: We have 3 left. Dybeck has always been there (<3 farside); the Sando thing (like I said, I don't look for connections; Javert has more experience there than me so I'd like him to weigh in on that interaction as well) would make sense (we've lynched goons, that could've weighed in on Sando's mind; bussing a goon rather than some sort of power role).

I guess I am not quite understanding this request. Are you asking me to look for connections between dybeck and Sando?

If so, I think the interactions between them are probably not the interactions of partners. Most notable for me is that Sando attacked dybeck for "derailing" the bv310 wagon. Attacking Partner A for derailing a wagon on Partner B puts all three of you in a nasty triangle.

I get the feeling more that Sando was trying to set up an eventual lynch on dybeck moreso than the possibility that he was simply distancing from dybeck. Put another way, I feel like Sando was trying to paint dybeck as bv310's partner, in the event that bv310 was lynched.

If this was not what you were requesting, please re-word your request.

2.)

Javert: do you think I am a worthy alternative to the Espeonage lynch?

Yes. And just in case:

Javert: do you

really

think I am a worthy alternative to the Espeonage wagon?

Yes.

[farside22]

I'm really feeling the split wagon we have going is going to be very informative.
OJ: Do you disagree that either sera or espy is scum? If so why?

[farside22]

Finally read Espy in iso and all I have to say is useless. This guy has done nothing but follow one bw after another with no actual view of his own in so far as who he believes is scum.
In short there will be a cold day in hell when I unvote this guy.
He's not scum hunting he's scum flying under the radar hoping to go unnoticed.

[farside22]

bobz:

Wasnt overly happy with bv either for some reason Papa Zito started annoying me in the end part of the thread.

jumps on the richard wagon over bv for really little reasoning.
what happened to this theory?
waffling
post 531 what players where you referring to here?
post 555 only post lurkers as scum suspects. Wow really that's it?
post 606 really don't like this post upon seeing bv's flip
links to bv I still detect this as panic at the idea that bv was going to flip scum.
If you believe the claim and believe the person is town you hold on to it as town. As scum you fear the flip knowing the person is scum.
post 703 this is why the richard wagon started in the first place on look who bobz is voting for.
post 720 why does lurking making richard scummier then bv?
not to self dependant of sera flip
I would urg others to look at this as I see a tie with Sera on this if bobz flipped or Sera flipped scum at this point
Why would you believe a VT claim and why is it worthy of an unvote?

Bobz has been pretty blah day 2 and all but invisable day 3 during the sando lynch. It would not surprise me in the least to see bobz flip scum and now is at best actively lurking.

[Jahudo]

My combination of gut, reading and voodoo magic says Seraphim is town. He's like, my 3rd or 4th least likely scum candidate left.

[Ojanen]

Are you really trying to say that dybeck-power role would REVEAL himself to know that inside knowledge where vanillas wouldn't know? Painting a huge target on his back because of it? Sound use of logic there.

You assume
1) that dybeck's thought ("I'm going to hazard a guess at the setup. I wonder whether when town power roles choose to use a night action, scum have the option of using the same night action against town.")
is

obviously

exactly true.
2)that prs and scum

must

both have this information
3)that no strong modes have been used (we know that Pom used strong mode N1. Stuff like scum gaining a hiding action because they can copy night actions doesn't sound too elegant setuping to me but what do I know.)
4)it makes sense for dybeck scum to signal his knowledge
=>therefore you see no other possiblity than dybeck being scum.
All other tells you wrote look pretty connective to me, so there were purely to the audience then.
It just doesn't look plausible to me.

Question about farside=town and basing my read on you {OJ} on that: Scum look to kill threats. Confirmed town (Pom is dead, she had no reason to lie and hid behind farside with an ability that would kill Pom N1 if she hid behind scum) is a threat. Richard and one of Anon/Porochaz aren't threats (specifically Richard). If you-scum remember that farside is confirmed town, that would make her a threat and would kill her because of that moreso than the current list of NK's after N1. It's against you-scum's wincon to leave people like that alive.

The rest of us are smart enough that confirmed town isn't always right, and farside is smart enough to know the same thing so she's still scumhunting to the best of her abilities in good faith.

I still don't understand what you are saying. Did you assume I would have been the only one to remember Pom hid behind her, is that it? what are you communicating with the underlined sentence? can't decipher its function at all.

farside will get back at you in a sec.

[Ojanen]

OJ: Do you disagree that either sera or espy is scum? If so why?

sera's D1 play looks town. The later days aren't that great, but not gonna vote him at this point.
I tunnelled the whole of D1 on Espy so I can certainly see where people are coming from re: his play looking scummy.
I just don't think he's that likely scum with bv or sando, and I didn't like the composition of his wagon earlier today. I have elaborated on that somewhere in my iso, can dig it up for you if you want.

[boberz]

The theory of bv or faraday being scum with richard. I have completely forgotten why in truth.

The waffling was more a checking in post, to whine at a lurker and ensure I had made my view of the last few posts clear. It was not waffling I was showing that I acknowledged the arguments that were being made but they didnt seem to be contradicting my own. Hence my conclusions were the same.

In 531 I honestly was not talking about any player/s in particular for otherwise I would have said so. It was more an impression of him being a lynch that people were doing because they had run out of ideas rather than actively pursuing properly.

I didnt only post lurkers as scum suspects in that post. So you are factually incorrect.

Post 606: why not? In fact if you had read the posts before this I have already answered for this exchange. You are just throwing mud and hoping it sticks as well.

'links to bv' you must be linking the wrong post here. You moan at me for not defending bv who I though was safe and link a post where I staunchly defend him?

I have also explained, and I did at the time explain why I was on richard. It was not becuase of overreaction etc. That was a load of crap it was for numerous other reasons I explained at the time. And answered for at the time.

Why is richard lurking making him more scummy than bv. Because at the time I believe he was lurking in a more scummy way, and also lurking more than bv. I also explained this at the time.

The Sera case was to some extent dependent on Richard: firstly sera treating anti-town and scummy differently on richard than me; secondly being inconsistent on the richard wagon and thirdly richard being in the wishy washy top three in Sera's list (again with inconsistency). Considering Richard was my favoured lynch and a more plausable target at the time there is nothing scummy in what I did.

---

I was more or less non existent for days 2 and 3 maybe I should have replaced out, maybe not. I am never sure on the merits of both options. The General Election in GB was called and I am heavilly involved in politics. I posted that VLA in this game, and (in case you want a reference) in my other games. You can accept that or not, but it is the reason.

I am not active lurking now.

[farside22]

bobz: who are you're top 3 scum suspects and why?

You moan at me for not defending bv who I though was safe and link a post where I staunchly defend him?

Get it right. I'm looking at you for defending bv. Not for not defending him. Also for telling people he's not the lynch.
The rest is you just lurking, following and not following thru with anything after.

[Amished]

@boberz (and somewhat OJ): say you have no info on the setup (vanilla). Would you make the leap of logic to say that power role strong actions are then given to the scum team when the only power role we really made claim was Pom and she didn't talk about consequences of her hiding? It REEKS of inside information. Inside information like that is rarely (read: never) lied about cause then a PR can trade themselves for a scum 1:1 after lynching two scum and well on the track to getting the rest of them. The fact that this wasn't disputed AT ALL BY ANYBODY also leads me to believe that it's factual. (yay for context, OJ). So, stating a fact that only a PR or scum would know (then refer to my flowchart-post).

@Javert: That was exactly what I was asking for from you.

Do you have any experience/knowledge with/of Sando? Would you put it past him tying a partner to another to clear himself for the long run? Or even banking on the fact that towns generally have a very short memory and would forget about a connection comment like that the very next day and if/when dybeck flips scum; Sando could point back to that and try to clear himself with it?

tl; dr version of that paragraph: Do you believe that Sando would only treat his scumbuddies in one manner?

@OJ: You design a setup where power roles have both strong and weak modes; and the strong mode works as it had been said (given my logic from earlier this post). Would you tell *BOTH* the PR's and the scum that they have the potential to give/receive more power? I would. I think that's fair to all parties involved.

I thought Pom used her weak mode on N1 behind farside?

It slipped my mind that Pom hid behind farside. I had a strong town read on her but it didn't cross my mind that she was confirmed until I saw that you started putting green for her in your votecount and I initially thought that it was a scumslip. If I can forget about it, anybody can; but those who don't forget about it (if scum) would speak up and try to get rid of large threats like that.

Finally, farside knows that she's town (obviously). Therefore, she knows that she's not always right (and wouldn't (and hasn't)) push that line of reasoning. The rest of us, while admitting that she's confirmed town, also know that townies aren't always right; but that farside is scumhunting in her best interest and we know her motives.

So everyone can trust her to do what's best and not have to second guess her motives; and looking at all of her posts with a simpler viewpoint (knowing that she's town).

Finally: as much as I like Javert and ABR; I will not be on any wagon with dybeck first of all, and boberz secondly. I will put their scum % up against Faraday and NickF's any day.

[farside22]

@Amish

I am a hider. I have weak mode, which is normal hider, and strong mode, in which kills directed it me do not affect me. I hid with farside22 last night on strong mods, for fear of vig.

Pom hid in strong mod behind me. She stated later she thought the vig may shot her and she wanted to live.

Am I reading correctly in that last post you dont' see bobz as scum?

[farside22]

faraday:
post 592 I don't see how he reads Bv as a VI and not richard.
God reading Faraday is horrible. He's been saying v/la most of the game or needing to catch up. I seriously want reasons right now on why he thinks the players he has listed are scum.
Worst part Faraday always looks scummy to me except once. I need to look at something that bugs me about him a little bit later.

[boberz]

Haha I totally had no idea farside was confirmed innocent, he was hanging on the outside of my scumdar. Epic Fail. It will teach me to be disenfranchised from a game for a day or more.

Based on your recent comments however farside I must have misunderstood this

If you believe the claim and believe the person is town you hold on to it as town. As scum you fear the flip knowing the person is scum

I presumed by this you were insinuating that I was scared of bv's scum flip. However the quote you were pointing me to was one whereI was staunchlydefending bv. I do notmind you not liking my defending bv (perfectlyunderstandable) but I do not understand I was in any way scared.

---

@Amished - The thought of the power transferring to scum if used in strong mode had actually crossed my mind aswell, so I can believe it came a town alligned player. What I didnt do was voice that speculation (because itwas just that and it doesnt help town in this situation imo) it is the motivation behind voicing it that I am interested in.

[farside22]

Yeah I just searched multisearch and one time faraday said v/la he still was posting elsewhere.
I need to search one more thing before I declare faraday scum or town.

[farside22]

Yay!!! I declare Faraday is scum. I give to you exibit A faraday scum
Please count the number of things you see in that game that is in this game as well and you may just switch you vote with me.

unvote:
vote: Faraday

Fos: Bobz, Espy

[Amished]

@farside: no, bobz is my 2nd suspect behind dybeck. Espy would be third pending faraday stuff. Reading now.

[Faraday]

Yay!!! I declare Faraday is scum. I give to you exibit A faraday scum
Please count the number of things you see in that game that is in this game as well and you may just switch you vote with me.

unvote:
vote: Faraday

Fos: Bobz, Espy

I assume you've read town games of mine to make sure I don't do similar things in those games? Would you mind at least pointing out the percieved similarities, I'm not going to read my own games to see what you're talking about. Also your meta is pretty damn old, it was my first game on the site. I think my playstyle has changed a lot since then. My wiki has a whole list of scum games that are more recent, so cherrypicking one that probably doesn't reflect my current playstyle is well not something I can defend against.

Reasons for my list coming.

[farside22]

boberz: I may have the wrong quote in mind but I recall feeling you out when you said that you believed bv was saying he was VT. I tied you two together based on your defense. You seemed really scared and nervous at the idea of being teamed together. You later stated you acted that way in another game and I think I gave you a null tell later for it.
I still feel suspicious of you non the less.

[Faraday]

Yeah I just searched multisearch and one time faraday said v/la he still was posting elsewhere.
I need to search one more thing before I declare faraday scum or town.

Uh it's limited access, not none btw. I'm V/la most weekends and can only post every so often due to unreliable internet.