NY 114: Mafia vs. Werewolves (Game Over)

[Faraday]

*I would like for Parama to tone down and/or cease posting. We get the idea.

I CANNOT BE SILENCED

please don't spam the thread it makes it harder for replacements to

pretend they've

read the thread.

(I've been following alongish too, Vi so no need to worry)

The Supersmash guy is town btw. I think nhammen is town too.

[Faraday]

*I would like for Parama to tone down and/or cease posting. We get the idea.

I CANNOT BE SILENCED

please don't spam the thread it makes it harder for replacements to

pretend they've

read the thread.

(I've been following alongish too, Vi, so no need to worry)

The Supersmash guy is town btw. I think nhammen is town too.

[Unsight]

*Unsight's last two posts seem like filler. I'm particularly not thrilled with trying to get a read on this slot, but he seems more in the background than the last time I considered lynching him D1. (Or maybe that's me being tired, etc.)

I'm a lot more in the background this game unfortunately.

I have two other games where people have been actively trying to get me lynched and my time for mafia has been very short these last few days so a lot of my energy has been spent in those versus this one. Despite limited time, I'm doing my best to keep up with the game, give input on the wagons that keep starting, and point out the things that stand out to me.

[Pomegranate]

Yes, my attacks are entirely hypocritical, and the only reason I'm not targeting myself is because I know my own alignment. Would you suggest I target nobody at all?

Listen, if you find something that someone else is doing scummy, why would you do it yourself? (Or the other way around maybe, but the same point.)

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

May I have all of your undivided attention here for one moment?

Just yesterday, I realize we have another problem. As if trying to find scum and dealing with unhelpful/scummy people isn't bad enough for town, we have another major problem. It's the consistent bandwagons that are being formed like every day or two, then suddenly disappear.

Now granted, bandwagons are useful for giving us easier reads on a person and it jump starts the game into serious discussions, early bandwagons that don't go into lynches when we have plenty of time left are always good. However, I feel that there has been way too many of them in such a short time period. This means that their isn't really enough time for some people to actually analyize the person being bandwagoned and the people on the bandwagon. As people are more concerned about current events, some people may ignore past events entirely, which lies important evidences that people may not have used.

Some of the bandwagons have been beneficial to the game, I will admit (Parama, Chronopie), but others have been unecessary and feels like people are voting for the sake of bandwagonning or end up not getting much off of (Sevis, Dr. Robotnik).

As a matter of fact, I'm worried they're actually starting to hurt town overall. Most people seem to have the "I think this guy is scummy, but he has a bandwagon on him, I'll vote for him! Even thought I may have other more major suspicion that haven't really been pressured a lot yet." mentality. Ladies and gentlemens, this mentality is dangerous to town and we need to think about that

now

. If we continue to make multiple bandwagons without really coming to a conclusion on who we think is scum, eventually, we'll realize that deadline is coming up very soon and because we wasted it on making bandwagons, we don't know who to lynch. We're most likely going to end up with a terrible lynch or worse yet, a no lynch at all.

The bandwagons frenzy nearly got nhammen lynched before even a week passed in the game and we currently have over a month to decide on a lynch. That's a lot of time to decide on a lynch folks, so we need to use it to our advantages, and using most of the time forming bandwagons that disappear quickly isn't going to benefit town.

When a relatively experienced player complains about the frequency of bandwaggoning that ends quickly (SerialClergyman), you know it's being overdone to the point where it can hurt town.

Another thing, this is giving excuses for lurkers to hide even more in the mess we're in. Dr. Robotnik and pman5595 are HUGE examples of this. Continuing at this pace will let them give them more oppertunity to lurk and avoid major bandwagons.

On top of that, this could eventually cause another problem to town, inactivity. Pomegranate is feeling that she's losing interest in this game because there's too many things going on in this game. I'm worrying about losing interest in this game as well, as the bandwagons are starting to make the game confusing, instead of helping us. On top of that, Faraday had to replace daniel due to daniel being inactive in this game and theit wasn't really any reasons for him to drop out. Inactivity is basicaly disrespecting the mod who is in charge of the game. If you're inactive, you're getting replaced. Being replaced due to inactivity is a waste of time for mods. What if MichelSableheart needs to replace someon for a valid reason but can't find one? He will have no choice but to perform a mod-kill. If it's a townie, we go into Night. Sure we'll be lucky if we hit scum, but mod-kills should not be occuring with people who has to leave for valid reasons.

So how do we end all these unecessary bandwagons bullshit that benefits no one but scums? Well, do these things:

1. Start coming to concrete conclusions:

Try your best to stay firm with your votes. Only switch votes when you're absolutely certain a person is a top suspect or if it is needed for a lynch. Votes that sound like bandwagons isn't coming to concrete conclusions, it's just switching votes around for what might be valid or invalid reasons. For those who rarely change votes during the bandwagon incident (Not pointing fingers, you know who you are), I'd like to give you the time to say thank you, you are really benefitting town.

2. Find people who is the most responsible for the bandwagons and attack them:

I'm getting the feeling that this is a well-planned scum tell to confuse townies with multiple bandwagons and they plan on using this usually town tactic against us. The best way to counter this is to re-read the entire thread (It will be a pain, but it could be worth it) and the worst offenders of the bandwagons should have more focus put upon. Therefore, they'll actually have to defend their reasons for all this bandwagon shennagian they've caused. It is very well possible that a scum might be involved in this.

Either way, in order to help win the game for town, we need to shut down this problem right in it's path. If you're planning on making a bandwagon, be absolutely sure we can gather something from it.

Tomorrow, I will re-read the thread to see what I can find (If possible). I expect everyone else to do the same. I know you may not agree with me, but this is an another issue we need to worry about.

[LimMePls]

Alright, this is for realz my final post before V/LA.

I still think Sevis is scum, but I agree with Faraday, this day is lasting WAY to long. I think CP is scum. He has a big wagon, and I support his lynch. Therefore

Unvote
Vote: Chronopie
FOS: Sevis

Good luck guys, I'll check in when I can.

[foilist13]

Then we will have to agree to disagree. You'll notice that I attacked you through analyzing your posts and pointing out what I found scummy. Granted, you attacking me is what brought my attention to you in the first place, but it did not drive my attack against you.

You can claim it as a coincidence all you want... but you don't seem to be prepared to accuse anyone of being scum firmly until they're on you.

I have firmly labeled Chronopie as scummy, I did so, and voted him before he voted me. He has been by far my strongest suspect since vezopiraka. He also was not attacking me when I went after him. Your argument applies only to you. It is poorly thought out, unchecked, and apparently nothing more than a defense.

If I were a scummy OMGUS player I would have gone straight after nhammen when he attacked me. I did not find him scummy however, I simply thought he was misreading or particularly dense. I did not jump on his wagon, I told him he had nothing to add to the game.

The first part is WIFOM... I never said you OMGUS'd everyone attacking you. Indeed, part of the problem was that you were using nhammen's case against you to try and undermine Parama (on the aspect of rolefishing, mainly).

Now, I'd like everyone to look at foilist's style of defence. Instead of trying to prove he's town, he's trying to show he isn't OMGUSing. Why? he wants to undermine my case, and add someone to his bizarre scumlist that barely seems to accuse people of being scum.

1) Try and undermine Parama? What are you defending your buddy now? If I see something I don't like, I call them out on it. I don't care who it is against.

2) Right, my style of defense, which is to refute the arguments against me, is scummy. If you say I'm scummy based on me having used OMGUS, and I believe I have not done so, wouldn't the logical course of action be to prove I was not using OMGUS. Furthermore, if I thought your attack was not driven by town motivation, should I not call you on that and try and prove my reasons why?

Incidentally

There are other people I'm not fond of. They simply haven't made my top 4.

Names. Reasons. Now.

No. I'm voting Chronopie.

[Dry-fit]

@Chronopie: So Lowell is your top suspect?

Anyways, while rereading I noticed something:

Hidden rolefishing is scummier than blatant rolefishing. f they are Town, they have NOTHING TO HIDE.

Not buying this at all. How is it "hidden" if he's going so in depth into it? What about it is hiding?

I like parama's case on nhammen a lot. I also think its odd how chrono joined the wagon without talking about how Parama's case implicates him, but I'm not sure how I'd expect him to react to that.

unvote. vote: nhammen

You saw foilists rolefishing. And yet Parama's entire case was that foilist was not rolefishing, so my accusations were baseless. This was later proven flase. But the point here is that you

saw foilist's fishing

and at the same time

agreed with Parama's case

. Explain please.

The main point of Parama's case I agreed with was how you treated the rolefishing differently.

A bandwagon on Sevis makes me groan because I despite a neutral-scummy read, I really don't want him to get lynched ToDay (Save him for later). More on this later with a seperate post dedicated to this.

Would like to hear more about this.

[Chronopie]

@Chronopie: So Lowell is your top suspect?

Lowell claimed scum. I'm wary of scum-claims (Bad experience, <ongoing reference>). Doesn't make it a town move.

[foilist13]

Your total lack of defending yourself leads me to solidifying my vote.

confirm vote: Chronopie

[Midnight's Sorrow]

@Chronopie: So Lowell is your top suspect?

Lowell claimed scum. I'm wary of scum-claims (Bad experience, <ongoing reference>). Doesn't make it a town move.

What?

He did? I didn't see this. What makes you say that?

[Faraday]

hmm having read over the thread pretty quickly i have to say it's been one giant clusterfuck, a lot of stupidity at times.

i think all the masons and monks are town, btw. that's more-so me trying to outguess the mod than anything else, but i think it'd be a neat thing to do, reminds me of iam's emerald city to some degree.

nhammen and foilist both look pretty town, the latter especially.

serial is probably town too, and smash bro is town for his early game behaviour which looks very n00b town to me. parama's attack was understandable though so I don't find him scummy for it really.

[foilist13]

Who DO you find scummy? Town reads are nice, but they don't give anything to analyze. Who do you think is scum?

[Faraday]

i've just listed 10 or so town reads, i'm working for there, give me a chance. also disagree as it gives you a load to analyse. but it is a 32 page thread, give me a fucking chance.

not upset with my current vote, don't like his jump on the nhammen wagon overly much.

[Faraday]

*from there

[Faraday]

Don't give town reads because that tells the mafia who to kill.
Stick to giving scum reads and only scum reads (neutral reads MAYBE)

give scum reads and neutral reads and the scum will never ever be able to work out who you think is town? lol.

ANYWAY READING THE THREAD NOW GAIZ AGAIN.

[MichelSableheart]

Fifteenth vote count of day 1:

askbob (0):
Chronopie (8):

Unsight, Leafsnail, Dry-fit, foilist13, Super Smash Bros. Fan, vezopiraka, Faraday, LynchMePls

Dr. Robotnik (1):

Sevis

Dry-fit (0):
Faraday (0):
foilist13 (1):

Chronopie

Leafsnail (1):

The Goat

Lowell (1):

askbob

LynchMePls (0):
Midnight's Sorrow (0):
nhammen (3):

SerialClergyman, Seraphim, pman5595

Parama (2):

Midnight's Sorrow, Timeater

pman5595 (1):

nhammen

Pomegranate (0):
Seraphim (0):
SerialClergyman (0):
Sevis (3):

Vi, Pomegranate, Lowell

SGRaaize (0):
Super Smash Bros. Fan (0):
The Goat (0):
Timeater (1):

Parama

Unsight (0):
vezopiraka (0):
Vi (0):

Not Voting (2):

SGRaaize, Dr. Robotnik

With 24 players alive, it takes 13 votes to lynch someone.

---

Seraphim hasn't posted in the last 48 hours. Because he already was prodded once today, and very recently at that, I'll start looking for a replacement. Till one is found, however, Seraphim can keep posting in the game thread.

LynchMePls will have limited access from wednesday 26th till monday 1st.

[SerialClergyman]

Woot, wagon on someone scummy.

True to my word:

unvote, vote Chronopie

[Faraday]

page ten makes me want to kill myself.

[Faraday]

ebwop: page ten makes me want to kill myself

[Faraday]

i'd not be overly upset at sevis/sgraiize/dry-fit/leafsnail all being shot by a multi day vig so if anyone's holding back, there's no need. timeater too maybe.

pman needs to post a lot more, 6 posts at this stage (and no content in them) is unacceptable. earlier town reads look all the more right. Vi's pretty townie and is scumhunting. even if she's scum it probably won't be a game deciding factor anyway so it's okay. out of the masons/monks I think there's a slim chance of scum, lynchmepls and seraphim are really town looking due to stuff and i'm obv town, so if there is scum ..well yeah it can't be vas either, so yeah there's probably no scum in them i think.

lol that was rambly.

i believe nhammen's claim at this stage too.

lowell's as townie as he can be I think, he's hard to read but at this stage he looks more town than scum.

[Vi]

Read up to this point, doubts about Faraday have recessed; nothing else to say that you haven't heard already.

[vezopiraka]

Faraday made my day.
I can't wait to talk to him in the mason chat. He says that the masons should be town and he had a bandwagon on him.
@mafia side: Can you Nightkill faraday? He's clearly the werewolf in the mason group.

[Parama]

Vezo, you don't know for sure that there's a werewolf in the mason group, and you don't know for sure that there's a mafia in the monk group. Stop assuming.

Anyways

unvote, vote: Chronopie

If Chrono flips scum can we lynch nhammen next? PLEEEEASE?

[nhammen]

@nhammen: You ask people to list out six suspects. Now, list your six suspects as well and explain why you find them suspicious.

I gave a list of seven quite some time ago. One of them has been removed since then though.

So, who is scummy on the wagon?

Parama

Chrono
pman
sevis

Who is scummy off the wagon?
SGRaaize
robotnik
askbob

I removed Parama because his action match his Town meta. This drove him back to a null read.
I agree with most of your case on robotnik that was presented in your PBPA, although I don't rate him quite as scummy as you did.
I have already provided explanation for the other 5, located here. Note: some players may have made rebuttals to these statements. Some players may have also committed more scumtells since that post of mine. But my scumlist has stayed the same. I will collect any links to updated information on these cases, if I find any, shortly.
And I will give you a bonus seventh scummy player in Lowell, who has lurked and

refused to answer my question!

In fact, I may put Lowell in my top 6 in place of robotnik.

Note: Another large part of the reason that these people are my suspects is that I have 9 Town reads, including the Masons and LMP. Process of elimination makes it much easier to decide who among the leftovers is scum. By the way, I have no reads at all, Town or Scum, on some of the lurkers, particularly Goat and Timeater. This is why I'd like them to post more. So that I can decide if they need to be added to the lists.

Want quotes on where he scum hunt and defend himself? Here they are:

Scum hunting

:

@daniel: Your last post looked really bad. Why did you made a bigger size and bold? And you know how I got that information.

My top two suspicions are pman and nahmenn. Nahmen doesn't say a whole lot of anything until he's attacked then suddenly its pages upon pages. That doesn't add up for me. Also a roleblocker role while possible IMO is rather unlikely and has a higher likelihood of hurting the town. Also I agree with paranama above. Nahmen goes from posting hardly anything to posting books, to posting nothing. That seems like scum to me. While I wanted to prolong the day phase with voting pman and getting him to speak up, I'm comfortable after reading his posting amount to suspect that he's mafia. I mean posting a lot when you're attacked, posting nothing when suspicion dies down. Unvote pmann, Vote Nhammen

With that said i may just be more suspicious of him because pman has had like 3 posts. One of them hopping on the nahmen bandwagon without any discussion and a post back 4 pages saying he was "going to catch up" I think he's lurking.

I'm was voting pmann in an attempt to prolong the day phase so that pman and some other silent people speak up.

The first one is barely scumhunting. The second one occurred after your PBPA, so that one is not an instance of the scum hunting that you mentioned in the PBPA.

Defends himself

:

wait wtf? He wasn't saying he could if he wanted to? I he was rolefishing. I don't know how you can't get that from what he said.

How have I done no scumhunting? I just went through the entire thread and counted posts and found some lurkers.

I also don't really buy that there is a townie roleblocker.

So my suspicions are the lurker list above combined with you. Particularly pman as I said above, he's had like 3 posts, 1 of them randomly jumping on the wagon with no analysis.

Since i want this day phase to last longer and get pman to slip up: Unvote Vote pman

First one is a fail defense, because vezo's quote was "You can claim if you want". Second one is after I said he was not scum hunting. His answer is, yes I am, I just found tons of lurkers! Notice: lurker hunting =/= scum hunting. I asked him after this "defense" of his, why he thought most of the scum were lurking. His response: well, he hasn't responded yet. And his attack on pman is just a parrot of my attack on pman, since you love using that as a scumtell. Note: I don't think that is as much of a scumtell as you claim it is.

I agree with his statements about robotnik. But wait, he finds robo suspicious for mainly talking about Masons... Who else has been mainly talking about Masons? askbob!! And he thought askbob was slightly pro-town.

@SSBF Why do you find a difference in robo's talking about Masons and askbob's talking about Masons?

Dr. Robotnik has made very few successful contributations to the game overall and it seems like he's not even trying. His "I can only go on the computer once a day" excuse sucks because he's post more then once a day. askbob is at least trying to contribute to the game in some manner.

Your continued defense of askbob astounds me... I don't know what to think of you. That niggling feeling that you are scum with bob keeps showing up in the back of my head. But I also have a Town read on you. These two reads do not mix.

substance? original thoughts? Were you reading the same Lowell I was? I admit, there are some, but very little. Not enough to mention.

Substance and original thoughts in order:

2) Super townpoints for midnight. NO way scum follows 181 with the hilariously-honest 183.

^^^ that was the longest post to add nothing ever.

unvote, vote robotnik. Why is it that people bandwagon early, but by page 10 or so everyone loses their nerve?

I agree with your assessment of 319, and robo's latest is no better. Moreover, I'd dispute that a 6-person wagon is a big deal. That's not even halfway there, so if you're suggesting this will become a convenient "quicklynch" then I doubt it. If he gets lynched he'll deserve it.

I find SCs explanation satisfactory, and consider him pro-town (I also see a little bit of SC-buddying from robo in his last post, but I think that's trying to latch onto a confident player rather than them both being scum).

Not once have I remembered anyone else saying any of those things before Lowell said them.

Fair enough... I guess I wasn't reading Lowell as well as I thought... Maybe I'm annoyed that he hasn't added any useful content

recently

. That last one you mentioned was 6 days ago...

In multiscum, scumhunting does not equal Town. And his scumhunting looks off. I can still see a neutral-ish lean though.

Actually, scum hunting when done well is always pro-town, regardless of circumstances. How is this a exception to the rules in multi-scums games?

In multi-scum, both scumgroups will try to scumhunt to find the other group. At this early a point in the game, it is difficult to tell the difference between selective scumhunting (hunting for only a specific group) and full scumhunting (hunting for any group). Thus, all players wil be scumhunting.

Faraday replaces daniel94581.

Yaaaay! We get rid of a VI... Hello Faraday.