Mini 973: "Bawhston" Brawl (WHAT A WIN!)


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Post Post #250 (ISO) » Fri May 28, 2010 10:08 am

Post by Hoopla »

Oso wrote:
From the Wiki wrote:The Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. He can not choose to kill.
@Hoopla, I assumed that the PGO lived through the attempt since it didn't specifically address being targeted by a killing role. My assumption was that the PGO preempted any target attempts. But in all honesty, this is the only game I have been in that even had a claim of PGO in it, so my experience with the role is exactly zero.

So I'll take your word for it unless someone else has some input on it.
All kills resolve simultaneously unless interfered with in some other way. It's just like if a vig killed a scum, and that scum killed the vig. They'd both die, even though it doesn't really make sense flavour-wise. My role is basically a vig that kills anyone that tries to do something to me. That something still affects me, but I kill them. :lol:
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Post Post #251 (ISO) » Fri May 28, 2010 10:42 am

Post by Furry »

Give me a little bit (the weekend) to mull over this claim. Im not asking for a hammer, but its not a "wow unvote now" claim.
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Post Post #252 (ISO) » Fri May 28, 2010 11:16 am

Post by TheButtonmen »

Considering we have a vig (I find his claim highly belivable) and a lurker I'm agianst lynching Slepz. Instead we have JS kill him tonight (I don't trust JS to use his gun responsibly if left to his own devices) thus making sure we get the best possible value from our vig and we don't waste our lynch today.

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Post Post #253 (ISO) » Fri May 28, 2010 11:19 am

Post by TheButtonmen »

EBWOP:
Also this thread still needs more Gwynplaine votes.
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Post Post #254 (ISO) » Fri May 28, 2010 11:49 am

Post by Oso »

Good idea Buttonmen, wrong person. If you replace Slepz with The Buttonmen in your post, I might go for it.

From your predecessor's final posts, I think I know what reason you will give to get off the Hoopla vote, but you still haven't explained why the Gwynplaine vote.

I read all of your posts in isolation and I can't see anywhere that you have advanced any reason at all (even a bad one) as to why you think Gwynplaine is scum.

@JacobSavage, This applies to you and xReckonerX as well. You have repeatedly stated you want him gone but have advanced no reason as to why that is.
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Post Post #255 (ISO) » Fri May 28, 2010 11:50 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Hoopla's so pro town it's not even funny.
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Post Post #256 (ISO) » Fri May 28, 2010 12:21 pm

Post by Oso »

Sorry Reckoner, I think I wasn't clear there. I wasn't referring to any votes you made or anything you said but rather why JacobSavage is so dead set on seeing you gone.

Like The Buttonmen's push against Gwynplaine, Jacob has given no reason why he is so hot to get you out of the game.
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Post Post #257 (ISO) » Fri May 28, 2010 12:25 pm

Post by yabbaguy »

Slepz didn't pick up his prod. Searching for a replacement.
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Post Post #258 (ISO) » Fri May 28, 2010 6:19 pm

Post by Gwynplaine »

Man, I went to work and missed all the excitement. I don't think I buy the vig claim. SK or mafia seems more likely. If we somehow don't lynch JacobSavage today I agree that we need to pick his target. But right now I still think lynching him is the right move.

It's probably worth noting that Nikanor was the first to suggest that JacobSavage kill Hoopla, which is really only a good idea if you think she's lying or don't know how the PGO works. He's never voiced an opinion on Hoopla's claim one way or the other, but she was on his list of "town reads" in iso 13. Probably, like Oso and InflatablePie, he was just unclear on the mechanics.

I'd also like to know the reasoning behind TheButtonmen's sudden hate-on for me. I've been basically ignoring him so far, because what can you really say to something like that? "Nuh-uh you" is about it.
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Post Post #259 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 12:25 am

Post by JacobSavage »

Right, reasoning time:
Lets step into the world of xReckonerx, by a ISO:
ISO 1 wrote:Vote: LlamaFl...

Erm

Vote: Furry
That entire post just rubbed me up the wrong way, it just seems to me like he has a clear plan already of how he is going to play this.
ISO 2 wrote:Everyone target Hoopla tonight

gg
I found this post surprisingly town-ish to be honest, but the fact that he posted this after his first, reinforces my view that he has a pre-laid plan.
ISO 3 wrote:...
WTF?! Seems to me like he is so shocked that someone might dare vote for him.
ISO 4 wrote:.........
Same again
ISO 5 wrote:Anyone who took this post seriously should do the human gene pool a favor and go kill themselves.
Ad Hominem in post 19, ??
ISO 6 wrote:Halfway into p.1? Lol.

Anyway, there's no way to confirm Hoop's claim, but I think her claim is legitimate. PGO claim prevents PR deaths and also wifoms scum into the risk of killing her. However if scum has a redirect then we're screwed ish.
Immediatly starts accually doing something usefull, but most of it is very obvious and slightly specultive, if he does flip scum, then I would expect either him or scum to be/have a redirector.
ISO 7 wrote:STOP DOING THIS SHIT
Ad Hominem again
ISO 8 wrote:Tempted to vote Slepz.
You only ever don't vote when it is lylo/Hammer or very close to a Hammer
ISO 9 wrote:Gladly -snip- This whole post basically flips back and forth on "It's town. It could be pro-town. It's risky. It's not pro-town. It's SK or scum. Lemme vote the PGO claim." The majority of this post is spent rationalizing how Hoopla's claim could be pro-town, then Slepz slaps down a vote without explaining why he thinks SK or scum seems more likely. Probably because, were he SK or scum, getting the PGO lynched would be beneficial for him so that he wouldn't have to worry about not being about to NK her.

Unvote; Vote: Slepz
Finally he votes who he said he would vote. However he did make some valid points her, but his late vote, and very little reasoning on it, makes me question quite a lot.
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Not helpful at all. Tries to explain his actions using a meta...
ISO 11 wrote:Fitz kinda annoys me.
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ISO 12 wrote:Cry moar.
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Post Post #260 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 2:30 am

Post by havingfitz »

Unvote


Since JS' claim is at least in some way confirmable I'm willing to give that a chance. However...since he could still fairly easily be (as someone else mentioned) SK or mafia...I'm not ready to color him town by any means. I'm not sure dictating who his target tonight is the best move as if he is telling the truth...scum could tailor their play tonight to discredit the claim...most obviously by not submitting a scumkill. But I'm not sure how to get around that. I lean towards Slepz being town so I for one would not support his lynch at this time or his targetting by JS.

Also, I really don't understand this post by TBM:
TheButtonmen wrote:Considering we have a vig (I find his claim highly belivable) and a lurker I'm agianst lynching Slepz. Instead we have JS kill him tonight (I don't trust JS to use his gun responsibly if left to his own devices) thus making sure we get the best possible value from our vig and we don't waste our lynch today.

Thoughts?
You're against lynching Slepz because he is a lurker (it actually appears he has just bailed to me) but you want JS (if we are to believe his claim) to vig Slepz. WTH? How does that make sense and how is that not wasting what is in essence...the same as a lynch by directing JS towards someone you are against lynching?

Question to all...is there any reason mafia would not want JS dead tonight? If he is telling the truth this could potentially be our one shot at using his PR.

I think the TBM post above is very scummy and I think a better course of action would be
Vote TheButtonmen
and have JS vig Hoopla. JS is probably gone anyway tonight so targetting Hoopla is no great loss. Especially when they, IMO, have both given cause to a great deal of suspicions with their D1 play.

Next on my list besides Hoopla would be xRECK for his continued and blatant active lurking.
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Post Post #261 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 2:35 am

Post by TheButtonmen »

Why would you ever waste a D1 lynch on a claimed vig; either A) Have JS shoot Slepz slot or B) if town decides they need to die, lynch someone else and tell the vig to eat their gun that night.
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Post Post #262 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 2:38 am

Post by TheButtonmen »

havingfitz wrote:\
TheButtonmen wrote:Considering we have a vig (I find his claim highly belivable) and a lurker I'm agianst lynching Slepz. Instead we have JS kill him tonight (I don't trust JS to use his gun responsibly if left to his own devices) thus making sure we get the best possible value from our vig and we don't waste our lynch today.

Thoughts?
You're against lynching Slepz because he is a lurker (it actually appears he has just bailed to me) but you want JS (if we are to believe his claim) to vig Slepz. WTH? How does that make sense and how is that not wasting what is in essence...the same as a lynch by directing JS towards someone you are against lynching?
I'm agianst lynching Slepz not because he's a lurker but because it's a waste of time as we can use the claimed vig to remove him thus saving a lynch.
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Post Post #263 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 5:41 am

Post by Gwynplaine »

TheButtonmen wrote:I'm agianst lynching Slepz not because he's a lurker but because it's a waste of time as we can use the claimed vig to remove him thus saving a lynch.
What does "saving a lynch" mean? Assuming that we're voting on who we tell JS to kill, we're either voting to lynch Player X and have JS kill Player Y or we're voting to lynch Player Y and have JS kill Player X.
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Post Post #264 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 5:46 am

Post by TheButtonmen »

Not quite; one is a lurker lynch thus generates little usable discussion for D2, where as the other would force people to chose between active players; thus much more discussion for D2.
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Post Post #265 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 5:50 am

Post by Gwynplaine »

JacobSavage wrote:Right, reasoning time:
Lets step into the world of xReckonerx, by a ISO:
You've already claimed town, so you can stop "pretending" to be scum now.
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Post Post #266 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 5:51 am

Post by Gwynplaine »

TheButtonmen wrote:Not quite; one is a lurker lynch thus generates little usable discussion for D2, where as the other would force people to chose between active players; thus much more discussion for D2.
If we do this, we're also going to vote pubicly on who we tell JS to kill.
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Post Post #267 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 7:52 am

Post by Nikanor »

Gwyn wrote:It's probably worth noting that Nikanor was the first to suggest that JacobSavage kill Hoopla, which is really only a good idea if you think she's lying or don't know how the PGO works. He's never voiced an opinion on Hoopla's claim one way or the other, but she was on his list of "town reads" in iso 13. Probably, like Oso and InflatablePie, he was just unclear on the mechanics.
No, I know exactly how a PGO works. It's a reflex vigilante. I wanted him to shoot Hoopla because I don't believe that we have both a vigilante and a reflex vigilante in a normal game. Either Hoopla is lying and needs to die, or Jacob is lying and needs to die. If Hoopla is lying, Jacob killing Hoopla would be good. If Jacob is lying, Jacob killing Hoopla would be good.
Jacob, what do you think? Would you rather shoot Hoopla or yourself tonight?
Also, I'm required to point out that TBM is assuming that Jacob actually is a vig.
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Post Post #268 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 9:20 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA. OH MY GOD. I'm lolling so hard at JS's case on me. Holy shit that's hilarious. Right, so, to debunk the worst case in MafiaScum history:
That entire post just rubbed me up the wrong way, it just seems to me like he has a clear plan already of how he is going to play this.
...or it was an inside joke between me and Furry.
I found this post surprisingly town-ish to be honest, but the fact that he posted this after his first, reinforces my view that he has a pre-laid plan.
Pre-laid plan for... what... exactly?
WTF?! Seems to me like he is so shocked that someone might dare vote for him.
Same again
Because I
clearly
wasn't seriously recommending that every power role target the claimed PGO. Which is why I told everyone who was taking that seriously to do the human gene pool a favor and kill themselves. Not ad hominem.
Immediatly starts accually doing something usefull, but most of it is very obvious and slightly specultive, if he does flip scum, then I would expect either him or scum to be/have a redirector.
You think what I said is speculative... then you speculate that scum has a redirector if I flip scum? Like, what kind of fucking fucked up logic are you using here, champ? "He suggested if there is a redirector that town is screwed... therefore if he flips scum, there's obviously a redirector!" What!? Even GWB would facepalm at that logic.
Ad Hominem again
Dude, you seriously need to look up the meaning of ad hominem and get back to me. Here's a hint: cursing isn't ad hominem.
You only ever don't vote when it is lylo/Hammer or very close to a Hammer
Might wanna crack open a grammar book with that encyclopedia, too. And I didn't vote Slepz quite yet because I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was that put me off about him. Which is why I posted IN MY VERY NEXT POST a case on Slepz when asked for one followed by a vote.
Not helpful at all. Tries to explain his actions using a meta...
Or I was joking with Hoopla, who I have played multiple games with.


Dude, your case is fucking horrible. Like, seriously. Let me go ahead and summarize it: this post rubs me the wrong way because Reckoner seems like he has a plan... a plan for what, I have no clue, because this case sucks. And your second post is pro-town... BUT YOU HAVE A PLAN SO IT HAS TO BE PRO TOWN! Then I'm just gonna call the rest of your posts Ad Hominem without really understanding what the term means, then completely misrep everything you do to twist it to make it seem scummy when nothing is actually scummy whatsoever.

Either Jacob is awfultown or awfulscum. Kinda hard to deliberate between the two. If he's awfulscum, he'll push for my NK tonight. If he's awfultown, he'll shoot me because he has some stupid ass weak case going on in his head where I'm scum.

I think our not lynching him should be dependent on him shooting who town directs him to. That way, we essentially get two lynches.
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Post Post #269 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 9:54 am

Post by q21 »

TheButtonmen wrote:Considering we have a vig (I find his claim highly belivable) and a lurker I'm agianst lynching Slepz. Instead we have JS kill him tonight (I don't trust JS to use his gun responsibly if left to his own devices) thus making sure we get the best possible value from our vig and we don't waste our lynch today.

Thoughts?
Why do you find his claim believable?
JacobSavage wrote:Right, reasoning time:
Lets step into the world of xReckonerx, by a ISO:
ISO 1 wrote:Vote: LlamaFl...

Erm

Vote: Furry
That entire post just rubbed me up the wrong way, it just seems to me like he has a clear plan already of how he is going to play this.
ISO 2 wrote:Everyone target Hoopla tonight

gg
I found this post surprisingly town-ish to be honest, but the fact that he posted this after his first, reinforces my view that he has a pre-laid plan.
ISO 3 wrote:...
WTF?! Seems to me like he is so shocked that someone might dare vote for him.
ISO 4 wrote:.........
Same again
ISO 5 wrote:Anyone who took this post seriously should do the human gene pool a favor and go kill themselves.
Ad Hominem in post 19, ??
ISO 6 wrote:Halfway into p.1? Lol.

Anyway, there's no way to confirm Hoop's claim, but I think her claim is legitimate. PGO claim prevents PR deaths and also wifoms scum into the risk of killing her. However if scum has a redirect then we're screwed ish.
Immediatly starts accually doing something usefull, but most of it is very obvious and slightly specultive, if he does flip scum, then I would expect either him or scum to be/have a redirector.
ISO 7 wrote:STOP DOING THIS SHIT
Ad Hominem again
ISO 8 wrote:Tempted to vote Slepz.
You only ever don't vote when it is lylo/Hammer or very close to a Hammer
ISO 9 wrote:Gladly -snip- This whole post basically flips back and forth on "It's town. It could be pro-town. It's risky. It's not pro-town. It's SK or scum. Lemme vote the PGO claim." The majority of this post is spent rationalizing how Hoopla's claim could be pro-town, then Slepz slaps down a vote without explaining why he thinks SK or scum seems more likely. Probably because, were he SK or scum, getting the PGO lynched would be beneficial for him so that he wouldn't have to worry about not being about to NK her.

Unvote; Vote: Slepz
Finally he votes who he said he would vote. However he did make some valid points her, but his late vote, and very little reasoning on it, makes me question quite a lot.
ISO 10 wrote:No, Hoop, you don't understand.

I'm a jackass.
Not helpful at all. Tries to explain his actions using a meta...
ISO 11 wrote:Fitz kinda annoys me.
ditto above
ISO 12 wrote:Cry moar.
ditto again
This is a nothing case. A list of generally inane comments on someone else's posts. There is no conclusion, no commitment to an idea. This post does nothing but fill space and I think that's exactly what its intended to do. Fill space so it looks like he's contributing to scum-hunting without actually doing so.

At this moment the only way I'd settle for a lynch other than JS is if he agrees to shoot himself tonight.
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Post Post #270 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 10:41 am

Post by yabbaguy »

Without a word, the observing old woman slinks back into her apartment. With the noose out of the tree, it becomes painfully clear to her what's really going on.


Vote Count:


7 to lynch

JacobSavage (5): Furry, Gwynplaine, xRECKONERx, q21, Hoopla
TheButtonmen (3): Oso, InflatablePie, havingfitz
Slepz (2): Nikanor, JacobSavage
Gwynplaine (1): TheButtonmen
Hoopla (1): Slepz

Deadline is 6/6 @ 10 PM GMT-4. No Lynch occurs if this elapses.
Still Replacing: Slepz
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Post Post #271 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 2:20 pm

Post by Furry »

@JS - Did you breadcrumb? Would you shoot yourself tonight? What is your kill method?
@fitz - Which of hoopla and JS are scum?
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Post Post #272 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 3:18 pm

Post by InflatablePie »

Two+ kills a night (Vig + mafia/SK/etc) + Paranoid Gun Owner = chaos for a Mini Normal. I'm fairly certain that either Jacob or Hoopla is lying (leaning towards Jacob if I had to pick one), so I don't object to Jacob shooting Hoopla. I think most everyone can agree with this?

q21, if Jacob is either SK Mafia or Vig, we still win from letting him shoot Hoopla tonight. If he's the first two, we get rid of an anti-town role, although at the expense of a PGO. If he's the vig, chances are Hoopla is anti-town and thus will die via vig shot.

The only thing that would be bad is if both of them are town, which I kind of doubt due to what I said above. We should lynch someone else today, otherwise we waste what I think is a good chance at a scumdeath tonight.
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Post Post #273 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 9:31 pm

Post by Furry »

InflatablePie wrote:Two+ kills a night (Vig + mafia/SK/etc) + Paranoid Gun Owner = chaos for a Mini Normal. I'm fairly certain that either Jacob or Hoopla is lying (leaning towards Jacob if I had to pick one), so I don't object to Jacob shooting Hoopla. I think most everyone can agree with this.
The only way this will possibly work is if JS is a SK or Hoopla isnt a PGO. Anything else and you have to be dense to not see what is going to happen.

@JS - Are you a SK? If you are you should tell us now, if you really are there are a few things that should happen that actually will increase your winning chances. Yes this sounds funky beyond reason but you have to trust me on this. You are going to be dead very soon if you are a SK. I am offering you a win chance if you are the SK.
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Post Post #274 (ISO) » Sat May 29, 2010 10:22 pm

Post by Hoopla »

I think the vig-directing plan is flawed. I'll point out my reasoning:

Assuming the claim is true, it is quite likely that scum has some powerrole to counteract this, because unlimited vig is debatably one of the most powerful, game-changing roles the town can have. Think Roleblocker, Bus-Driver, Redirector - if any of these roles exist (or essentially any scum role that has the ability to manipulate), then our results will be flawed, as scum can direct traffic or frame someone for the next lynch based on what they stop/change at night. And it is a real possibility it could happen.

But lets look at it from all the possible angles. I'll even include the possibility of me being scum to create an objective post, from the eye of the onlooker;


1)
Hoopla Scum
,
Jacob Town


Well, if this is the case, you should hardly be trusting what I say. So, I'll try to dispute this possibility by being as logical as I can in my position, and showcasing what could happen if this was the case. This is a troubling scenario for town, as my claim, whilst not being universally believed, is quite close to it. Jacob killing me (or any other variant) would be a favourable outcome in this circumstance.

But as I explained before, the likelihood of a manipulation role is quite high (especially in conjunction with a vig). To help accentuate my point, I checked through the last 40 Closed 3:9 Mini Normals, and 25 of them contained a Mafia Roleblocker/Jailkeeper, which is stark odds when you're entrusting a direction style plan to prove/disprove someone.

In this instance, if the town decided to direct Jacob to me, I surely would use my team roleblocker to counteract this ploy (if one exists). If the town were to decide to direct the kill on someone town, surely we would leave him be and reap the favourable benefits of a double town kill. Even though this would prove Jacob's killing ability, there would still be grave concerns about him possibly being a SK.

This is the only real scenario where directing the vigilante kill makes sense. However, it is hampered by dim odds of this being the mix of alignments between I and Jacob, and also the reliance on there not being a scum manipulation role. I hardly think this is a worthwhile chance, and I'm not just arguing this because I am a possible candidate.

Even jacob suiciding is prone to scum manipulation. Assume, safely, that scum has a roleblocker, would it not be in their interest to block a vigilante suicide? They get the glory of killing a townie elsewhere Night 1, set-up a Jacob mislynch tomorrow and get through to Day 3, quite likely untouched, which might I remind you would be mylo.


2)
Hoopla Town
,
Jacob Scum


From my biased perspective, this is the likeliest scenario, although I expect convincing the rest of you should remain harder. The worry with directing the vig kill in this instance is there isn't a kill to direct. Ordinarily we would assume the result of only one kill going through should prove Jacob as scum, but it is not even close to doing so. One night kill could mean that Jacob isn't a vig, but it also could mean scum have a roleblocker and we're in scenario 1, it could mean scum are no-killing to use Jacob's kill and incriminate him at the same time. Or it could be any other number of potential role interactions or gambits.

The bottom line is, one-kill tonight, especially if myself and Jacob are alive tomorrow is a detrimental situation. As it means we're in the same situation as today, but having settled for a sub-optimal lynch yesterday, and then the loss of a townie at night. This is a real possibility if we go down the route of directing the vig kill, and I believe this is a more damaging scenario than any benefits that could be gleaned from this plan.

We've a far better chance of succeeding if we take a risk today on Jacob, or myself, if need be (although I could never endorse this from a personal perspective).


3)
Hoopla Town
,
Jacob Town


Possible, but unlikely. It's been said before, but this would be chaos in a Mini Normal. I've seen some swingy Mini Normal set-ups before, but I think yabba is sensible enough not to go down that route.

In the unlikely situation this is true, scum would be licking their chops with delight, getting rid of one (or two) of the powerroles that could prove most damaging to their success.


4)
Hoopla Scum
,
Jacob Scum


Well, this would have to be an extremely adventurous gambit to go for such distancing. But if this scenario is true, how can you go wrong with lynching one of us today? :P




There remains plenty of other options if you include the possibility of a SK, but listing all those combinations would be time consuming and I doubt people would read them. Suffice to say, myself and Jacob do have claims decently suited to a would-be SK, and if so, going with the vig-directing plan is likely to fail. We must assume that SK's in Mini Normal's (and in general) are likely to have at least one-shot-bullet protection (possibly unlimited). I don't have the data on this, but it's rare to see a Vanilla SK.

This provides another obstacle in any directing plan, as the introduction of a possibly BP player improves the odds of a one-kill night, which yields no information if we're both alive.

In conclusion, I'm of the opinion we should be lynching one of myself and Jacob, as there is a real chance one of us is scum, or (seemingly) worst-case scenario, a SK. We have no real reason to stall with frivolous plans rife with possible manipulations. Seriously, it won't be a positive result for town.

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