Mini 967 - Mafia War (Over)

[Amish_Charney]

What do town v. town discussions look like to you, deadjoker?

[Exemption]

@soundwish: what's the difference between attacking the circumstance instead of the point than attacking the newb part of newbscum rather than the scummy part?

So katsuki where's this wifom you were on about?

[Stef]

I feel like an idiot. D1 was deff a bad day for town and we lost two town as a result.

I am surprised that nobody noticed the fact that there was only one kill although the first post says there are two factions.

@horrordude0215: Huh? what's the logic behind that vote and those FOSes? I don't get it. That just looks like a bullshit reason to have 3 suspects without doing any scum hunting.

----------

This is weird. Empking votes for AC -> Katsuki votes for Empking for voting for AC -> Exemption votes for Katsuki for voting for Empking. This looks awfully a lot like people who know more than others.

@Soundwish: your postcount is irrelevant. It is not an indicative of skill at mafia. Some have over 5k posts and still play bad. I find it funny that out of all that happened D1 you only find Exemption scummy and evenmore so that while claiming to be an experienced player you go ahead and do something like defend Empking based only on meta and your "impression" that he is being one of the most pro-town players while I don't see it as being the case at all. Also, making a case solely on the Me=Weird wagon without adding anything else is awful considering Me=Weird WAS a decent lynch given his play. He played awful as town and could have been scum just as easily.

I just don't see you having any good cases. Just a few flimsy reasons to try and start a wagon.

@Horrordude: Avoiding hammering is a null-tell because it implies 12-7-1 players are scummy and that makes 4 players (funny you only mentioned 3). Do you have ANYTHING else to say today?

@soundwish: Are you asking me why Exemption isn't defending himself against your point that the vote was opportunistic? That is a circumstantial reason for voting and he defended against it as such. Don't see your point.


-------

Empking, pman and AC were my next suspects. My gut tells me AC is townish, pman has made it a living hell for us to read him due to severe inactivity and empking plays badly all the time so.. makes him a bad town when he is town and a hard scum to out due to his playstyle always being bad.

Right now I'm thinking Empking.

Will look over him again though later on when I've got more time.

[Stef]

EBWOP:

Soundwish is now in my scumlist, don't know why I forgot to mention that.

[Soundwish]

@soundwish: what's the difference between attacking the circumstance instead of the point than attacking the newb part of newbscum rather than the scummy part?

Touché. I didn't address the scum part of the statement because, as I will explain in detail just below, the "newbscum" tag is applied specifically to newbies and so if he realised that I am not a newbie, he may not have reason to think me scummy anymore (I'm not saying he

won't

, just that he

might

, and I can respond to that when he has reconsidered the circumstances.)

I am surprised that nobody noticed the fact that there was only one kill although the first post says there are two factions.

Noticed, sure, but there is nothing productive to say about it at this time. It's not like it's totally inconceivable that with two factions there can be only one kill. Speculation about last night's kills should be nipped in the bud right now.

@Soundwish: your postcount is irrelevant. It is not an indicative of skill at mafia. Some have over 5k posts and still play bad. I find it funny that out of all that happened D1 you only find Exemption scummy and evenmore so that while claiming to be an experienced player you go ahead and do something like defend Empking based only on meta and your "impression" that he is being one of the most pro-town players while I don't see it as being the case at all. Also, making a case solely on the Me=Weird wagon without adding anything else is awful considering Me=Weird WAS a decent lynch given his play. He played awful as town and could have been scum just as easily.

I just don't see you having any good cases. Just a few flimsy reasons to try and start a wagon.

I want to be clear, I am

not

saying that "I have over 2.5k posts and therefore I am a great player, so follow me whatever I say". My point is that the "newbscum" label is used to denote things that newbie scum players might do that more experienced players might not. So I was asking him to re-evaluate his thinking based on the knowledge that my actions are not coming from a newbie, seeing as the "newbscum" tag cannot accurately apply. Do you understand what I mean now?

Also, in case you missed, I am also suspicious of deadjoker, which I have mentioned more than once.

@soundwish: Are you asking me why Exemption isn't defending himself against your point that the vote was opportunistic? That is a circumstantial reason for voting and he defended against it as such. Don't see your point.

Go back and read the post in which he voted for Me=Weird again. He hasn't expressed suspicion about him previously, but just happens to jump on with gusto immediately after I bring up his policy lynch statement and vote to ask about it?

The post reads opportunistic.

It's there in the text, not just the circumstances.

---------------------------

I genuinely don't get why people aren't willing to investigate a hunch by using their votes and instead just assuming that I need cast-iron proof before I can place my vote. My vote is there to dig deeper into it, not to say "that's enough, just lynch him now".

Gah. This is frustrating. I will reread.

[Katsuki]

@Exemption: I thought I had already talked about the WIFOM. If AC is scum, I doubt he would kill off unsight, as that would make him seem even more suspicious. As such, scum might kill unsight to try and make AC look guilty so that town continues lynching AC, who we already had suspicions about D1, on D2. However, scum can conversely carry out the kill to create the situation described above in order for us to

not

kill AC.
Hence, this is a WIFOM situation. I did not like empking voting AC right off the bat considering the "discussion" unsight and AC has yesterday, and to me, it seemed like he wanted to try and start a bandwagon on AC. I do not like being so hasty considering what the situation is.

[Exemption]

@katsuki: cheers personally I don't think he was voting for AC just because Unsight died. I think he said more because he still believes him to be scum from yesterday.

Whats wrong with creating a bandwagon right at the start of the day? As long as there is not an immediate lynch. Putting pressure on someone that way would be good because you can see there reaction and how they defend themselves considering the night actions.

@soundwish: thats understandable I suppose.

@step: I noticed but it doesn't really surprise me, ive never played in a multiple scum game before but I reckon that would happen about 40% of the time.

[horrordude0215]

@horrordude0215: Huh? what's the logic behind that vote and those FOSes? I don't get it. That just looks like a bullshit reason to have 3 suspects without doing any scum hunting.

Someone's a bit touchy about being suspected...

@Horrordude: Avoiding hammering is a null-tell because it implies 12-7-1 players are scummy and that makes 4 players (funny you only mentioned 3). Do you have ANYTHING else to say today?

Stop misreping me. I looked through the thread and I saw everyone who wasn't on the lynch wagon. Then I looked at the people who posted during deadline day but neglected to hammer. I voted and FoS'd accordingly.

[Katsuki]

@Exemption: I suppose. However, I found it suspicious given my read on empking's playstyle and how he builds cases and pressures.
_______

Also, do we really want to get into the discussion as to whether there are 2 factions or not again? There was only one NK, and hence no reason yet to assume 2 factions. (someone was talking about multiple factions)

[deadjoker]

@deadjoker - what do you think of Exemption attacking the circumstances of my point against him rather than the point itself?

I think he answered that question pretty well himself.

And blathering on about post count is not productive. How does it add to the discussion of the game? Spending any amount of time on day 2 with two dead town talking about experience is not good.

Deadjoker: IS your reasoning behind AC mostly because unsight flipped town?

Yes and No. It is because the back and forth between Unsight and AC was accusatory. The fact Unsight flipped town means AC's scumminess went up. I will explain more:

What do town v. town discussions look like to you, deadjoker?

Like the one between me and Unsight. She accused me, I explained myself, and we went out merry ways. I got a tell

on her (attempting to win the debate rather then scumhunt) which clouded my judgment of her future posts. Lesson learned.

@Stef - are you backwards rationalizing the Me=Weird lynch as good because it was a decent policy lynch? Isn't that what got Me= in hot water to begin with?

[Stef]

@horrordude0215: Huh? what's the logic behind that vote and those FOSes? I don't get it. That just looks like a bullshit reason to have 3 suspects without doing any scum hunting.

Someone's a bit touchy about being suspected...

@Horrordude: Avoiding hammering is a null-tell because it implies 12-7-1 players are scummy and that makes 4 players (funny you only mentioned 3). Do you have ANYTHING else to say today?

Stop misreping me. I looked through the thread and I saw everyone who wasn't on the lynch wagon. Then I looked at the people who posted during deadline day but neglected to hammer. I voted and FoS'd accordingly.

Touchy? The only thing I see there is you not answering my question. Where is the logic in that?

Also, you left one person out of the list because that person didn't post? How does that clear anyone? I'm really eager for an explanation.

@Deadjoker: no, I said that considering we now know he was town. He was #2 in my scumlist before the lynch. That's why I said "He could have just as easily been scum".

@Soundwish: I'll reread later and answer your exemption post.

Also, you ignored my point about your defending empking.

[Hrezs]

Not sure why, but I'm not liking soundwish at this moment, going to reread his posts

[horrordude0215]

@horrordude0215: Huh? what's the logic behind that vote and those FOSes? I don't get it. That just looks like a bullshit reason to have 3 suspects without doing any scum hunting.

Someone's a bit touchy about being suspected...

@Horrordude: Avoiding hammering is a null-tell because it implies 12-7-1 players are scummy and that makes 4 players (funny you only mentioned 3). Do you have ANYTHING else to say today?

Stop misreping me.

I looked through the thread and I saw everyone who wasn't on the lynch wagon. Then I looked at the people who posted during deadline day but neglected to hammer. I voted and FoS'd accordingly.

Touchy? The only thing I see there is you not answering my question. Where is the logic in that?

Huh? Look at the bolded. It seems to be me answering the question to me... Why are you neglecting to mention that?

Also, you left one person out of the list because that person didn't post? How does that clear anyone? I'm really eager for an explanation.

Did I ever say that it cleared them? No. I just found the people who intentionally didn't vote to be scummier.

Do you know how to do anything but misrep?

[Hrezs]

So I went and reread soundwishes posts and I didn't really find anything of note. There was one post that seemed a little forced, so at the moment I just have to say my bad feeling is gut.

[Stef]

@horrordude0215: Huh? what's the logic behind that vote and those FOSes? I don't get it. That just looks like a bullshit reason to have 3 suspects without doing any scum hunting.

Someone's a bit touchy about being suspected...

@Horrordude: Avoiding hammering is a null-tell because it implies 12-7-1 players are scummy and that makes 4 players (funny you only mentioned 3). Do you have ANYTHING else to say today?

Stop misreping me.

I looked through the thread and I saw everyone who wasn't on the lynch wagon. Then I looked at the people who posted during deadline day but neglected to hammer. I voted and FoS'd accordingly.

Touchy? The only thing I see there is you not answering my question. Where is the logic in that?

Huh? Look at the bolded. It seems to be me answering the question to me... Why are you neglecting to mention that?

Also, you left one person out of the list because that person didn't post? How does that clear anyone? I'm really eager for an explanation.

Did I ever say that it cleared them? No. I just found the people who intentionally didn't vote to be scummier.

Do you know how to do anything but misrep?

Alright... I'll rephrase... why is not hammering scummy?

Your argument about the people who didn't intentionally vote is retarded. You're saying that people who didn't intentionally vote are scummier but that implies that the ones who didn't vote didn't do so on intention just because they didn't post. You're implying that people who don't post don't read the thread and therefore cannot be held accountable for what they don't do (i.e. hammer).

I'm not misrepresenting anything. You're just being stupid.

Looking over your posts... lol. D1 your only vote was for me=weird and your argument was "for obvious reasons". You skipped through most of the day being inactive, did little to no scumhunting and you never built an actual case.

You picked on things like "Null and possibly scum" and every time someone picked on what you said you went into defensive mode.

1 post to confirm
1 post RVS
5 posts to apologize or to explain your actions
3 posts announcing or apologizing for inactivity
2 stupid questions
--------
12 posts out of your 14 posts D1

Congratz, you just entered my scumlist.

Vote Horrordude

[Snow_Bunny]

-Vote Count-

Amish_Charney (3) - Empking, Hrez, deadjoker
Hrezs (0)
Spyrex (0)
horrordude0215 (1) - Stef
Soundwish (1) - Amish_Charney
Katsuki (1) - Exemption
Stef (0)
deadjoker (0)
Exemption (1) - Soundwish
Empking (2) - horrordude0215, Katsuki

Not voting - Spyrex

With ten alive, it's six to lynch.

Spyrex replaces pman. And for that, and just because I'm a great mod, I shall give you one extra week.

Deadline is on 18 June 2010.

[Amish_Charney]

Wouldn't not hammering be really not scummy because he flipped town? I feel like the scum would have no interest in doing anything other than getting the lynch of Me= through as fast as possible.

[Amish_Charney]

Oh, and Soundwish, your point is taken, I'll drop the prefix.

[Soundwish]

Oh, and Soundwish, your point is taken, I'll drop the prefix.

So, what you're saying is that your point stands, even though you called it "newbscummery" originally and now it's just scummy? The whole point of "newbscum" as a term is something that newb scum do that more experienced scum are not likely to do, so if your point applies to me as someone who is not a newb, why did it apply before when you thought I was a newb?

At best here you're ignorantly using terms you do not understand and therefore can't be trusted to know what you mean, and at worse you're actively throwing anything that sticks at me without really caring about what you're trying to say. This makes me want to go back and take another look at the case against you, because this is potential scum behaviour.

@Hrezs: which post did you find forced? In what way?

[horrordude0215]

Alright... I'll rephrase... why is not hammering scummy?

Are you really THAT dumb? Not hammering is scummy because if there was no hammer, there

wouldn't have been a lynch!

Tell me how you wouldn't look at the people that tried to get a NL to happen?

Either you're scum, or you're really stupid. Neither of which are very good assets to the town.

What the hell,

Unvote, Vote: Stef

You're saying that people who didn't intentionally vote are scummier but that implies that the ones who didn't vote didn't do so on intention just because they didn't post. You're implying that people who don't post don't read the thread and therefore cannot be held accountable for what they don't do (i.e. hammer).

*Gasp* Another Misrep! No, I didn't say that the people who didn't post weren't accountable for their actions. In fact, I said for a fact that it didn't clear them. I just can't be sure if they had intended to hammer or not, whereas I know that the people that DID post had no intention... IE, they're scummy.

[Stef]

Alright... I'll rephrase... why is not hammering scummy?

Are you really THAT dumb? Not hammering is scummy because if there was no hammer, there

wouldn't have been a lynch!

Tell me how you wouldn't look at the people that tried to get a NL to happen?

My dear, people not hammering does not imply people not wanting to hammer. That is where your whole logic fails. I would have hammered if it were necessary. I was online when the hammer was dropped and I had Me=Weird as my #2 on my suspect list and I had previously stated that I'm willing to lynch Me=Weird. You come now and say "Hey, these guys are scummy because they didn't hammer!". How can I not call that fail logic? It means that you either haven't been reading my posts prior to the lynch or that you are trying to manipulate things into making it something it's not.

Katsuki has also stated several times he's fine with a Me=Weird lynch. Your whole argument is damn null. Hell, if you want to pick on the people who didn't hammer look at empking. He ignored the damn thing all together. Oh wait, you voted for empking just to switch your vote to me. Why? Because you got emotional? Oh, right, I just voted for you. That explains why you voted me back. OMGUS rullz.

Either you're scum, or you're really stupid. Neither of which are very good assets to the town.

What the hell,

Unvote, Vote: Stef

=)) so now you're advocating a policy lynch because you think I'm stupid? lol 3'rd suggestion of a policy lynch this game. Cool bro!

You're saying that people who didn't intentionally vote are scummier but that implies that the ones who didn't vote didn't do so on intention just because they didn't post. You're implying that people who don't post don't read the thread and therefore cannot be held accountable for what they don't do (i.e. hammer).

*Gasp* Another Misrep! No, I didn't say that the people who didn't post weren't accountable for their actions. In fact, I said for a fact that it didn't clear them. I just can't be sure if they had intended to hammer or not, whereas I know that the people that DID post had no intention... IE, they're scummy.

You can't be sure of damn anything. These are all guesses because that's what mafia is based on. The uninformed majority doesn't know crap. Everything is guess work so they are equal in probability as long as you are not specific. That is why it's not misrep, it's you not being explicit. Even if you were explicit it would have still been wrong because you are saying that people who didn't hammer didn't have the intention to hammer which is wrong.

[horrordude0215]

My dear, people not hammering does not imply people not wanting to hammer. That is where your whole logic fails. I would have hammered if it were necessary. I was online when the hammer was dropped and I had Me=Weird as my #2 on my suspect list and I had previously stated that I'm willing to lynch Me=Weird. You come now and say "Hey, these guys are scummy because they didn't hammer!". How can I not call that fail logic? It means that you either haven't been reading my posts prior to the lynch or that you are trying to manipulate things into making it something it's not.

Your posts prior to the lynch (The ones that relate to me=)

1 (Post 259): Oh no, a self vote!
2 (Post 251): Why should Me= try to claim and save himself if need be?
3 (Post 237): I think he's more of a noob than scum.

Yep, those TOTALLY mean "I'm willing to hammer", huh?

Katsuki has also stated several times he's fine with a Me=Weird lynch. Your whole argument is damn null. Hell, if you want to pick on the people who didn't hammer look at empking. He ignored the damn thing all together. Oh wait, you voted for empking just to switch your vote to me. Why? Because you got emotional? Oh, right, I just voted for you. That explains why you voted me back. OMGUS rullz.

No, my vote on you wasn't OMGUS. I had already said that I suspected you, so in essence, YOU were OMGUSing ME. I switched from Empking because while I thought he was scummy, you being overdefensive was a bit worse.

[SpyreX]

What up game.

Stef? Town.
Horror? Also town.

So, high fives and stop slapfighting. Turn and go.

One of AC and Sound are most likely scum. THEORETICALLY they both can be from the setup but no way are they scum together.

Unsight getting NK'd and being town flabbergasts me but whatev's.

By the tiniest of margins and if I have to truly delve into the depths to explain why I will buttt:

Unvote, Vote: Sound

[deadjoker]

@Snow Bunny - Thanks mod!

You are welcome! Wait, you are thanking me for what reason?

@Spyrex - Can't wait to see what you have to say of the game thus far. You are filling a slot I had (and still do) have a strong suspicion of, but obviously I'm willing to see what you have to say.

@Deadjoker: no, I said that considering we now know he was town. He was #2 in my scumlist before the lynch. That's why I said "He could have just as easily been scum".

Stef, I re-read your ISO before the Me=Weird lynch and you are right, you did think Me=Weird was scummy and lynchable. I misread your post as "well the fact he is dead is okay because he was a bad player" which sounds a lot like "oh noes I thought this guy was scum and now he is town and now I have to justify my suspicions."

I see what you are saying now, Me=Weird had a higher chance of flipping scum then town based on his play. Reminds me a lot of poker, going all in with a pair of Aces pre-flop.

[SpyreX]

Ohh yea and joker? Also probably town.

The only thing that itches me is, WHILE NORMALLY NOT TRUE, the method in which me=weird self-voted rang really clear as a town move. The kind that I swear about when I put the rope around their neck.

The other one I need to go back and reaaaly look over is Kat. The ebb and flow of suspicion towards them makes me itch in all those bad ways.