Newbie 960 - Game Over

[ToG]

At the moment I am trying to find some strategy that I can work with to find scum.
I am analysing each of your posts and thinking about the intend as to why you posted everything as you did. Then I am asking you if this is true and see how you react to my attack. I think this might not be the correct/best strategy as you are getting only annoyed and it is not really generating further content that can be analysed... or maybe you really are just town.

I don't expect you to answer the following question, but I want you to think about this:

Do you think Equinox is scummy, or are you trying to find out if Equinox is scummy?

This can make a difference in how you're reading the things I'm saying.

I think you are right I just somehow read to much into you and your post and somehow lost myself in thinking that you must be scum and that I just had to ask the right question to find the final proof. I don't think that this will help the town very much. However none of my attacks where made up or were somehow constructed to make you look bad.

I will

Unvote

for now and do a complete reread of thread.

I am moving my vote to memnom, I will explain my vote after my reread or move it.

Vote Memnom

[inHimshallibe]

Vote Count here after some laundry

[Memnon]

I'm less keen on Memnon. He seemed at first reluctant then uncertain how to answer the cases against him. That seemed pretty scummy to me: if you're town you know the case is wrong and should have little problem explaining your thoughts and motivations behind the actions that others see as scummy. It's scum that have problems answering cases because they know the case is frequently correct and they have to formulate some cobblers to justify themselves. Town has the power of righteousness, scum the doubt of guilt.

This is my problem. If I was right, then I would have no difficulty in defending myself. As it is however, I know that I've been wrong to play the way I have, and thus I have difficulty answering the cases against me.

I don't know how to admit that I've been wrong without raising more suspicions.

[andrew94]

look, if ren lying about her age is not considered scummy, then how does lying about my experience make me scummy

i believe someone said before: 'lying is anti town, if ur townie you dont have to lie, only scums need to lie' etc etc.

also @ ren, wolves= scum to me, i refer to scum as wolves.

also why do u emphasise on the need to

VOTE ren

. is it because the vote will not count, ir is it something more sinister such as drawing attention away from ren?

[NomDePlume]

Andrew: the vote needs to be formatted correctly to be counted, ie bolded and in the form

vote: player

see rules in post #1

nothing sinister

[Equinox]

If Ren had lied, it would have been scummy. The point I was trying to make was

Ren was not lying

.

andrew94, votes do not count if you do not do them properly. Read the rules, please.

Lying about your experience

is

scummy. You could be hiding behind lack of experience to act however you want as scum, and we wouldn't be able to tell because "you're new."

andrew94, why do you think Ren is scum? Answer this and I might rethink my case on you.

[ToG]

Still doing my reread...

@ Mod

Also, have you listed the official deadline day and time yet? I apologize if I missed it elsewhere.

Oh, yes. The deadline has been set for three weeks from the start of Day, which is Wednesday, June 9.

[NomDePlume]

If Ren had lied, it would have been scummy. The point I was trying to make was

Ren was not lying

.

It's not for you to make Ren's defense, Ren should do that herself. How do you know Ren was not lying? DID seems a convenient excuse for Ren to contradict herself with no repercussions, is that acceptable to you?

[I Am Innocent]

This is my problem. If I was right, then I would have no difficulty in defending myself. As it is however, I know that I've been wrong to play the way I have, and thus I have difficulty answering the cases against me.

I don't know how to admit that I've been wrong without raising more suspicions.

How about going at it from the other angle and stop defending yourself and start scumhunting. Who looks guilty and why? Even your top 2 was wishy washy (underlined added for emphasis):

@Everyone

Name your thoughts on the most likely scum pair in your mind. We need something to talk about. Even if it's a big stretch, tell us.

Equinox, because she is leading the entire thread, and I'm uncomfortable having to rely on one person.

Titiboo because he has been the most lurkerish.

These are very very weak

, so take them with a grain of salt.

[I Am Innocent]

If Ren had lied, it would have been scummy. The point I was trying to make was

Ren was not lying

.

It's not for you to make Ren's defense, Ren should do that herself. How do you know Ren was not lying?

DID seems a convenient excuse for Ren to contradict herself with no repercussions

, is that acceptable to you?

I agree with the underlined. I personally and not too hung up with the age thing, but I don't want to set a precedent that anytime Ren does something that contradicts himself, that he has an automatic out...

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP...Ren = Girl. Sorry.

Also, thanks ToG for bumping that post. I probably should have done an ISO on the mods posts, but secretly I was hoping the mod would answer my question on a deadline extension in case of replacements around that time.

The mods silence on that issue is not making me feel all warm inside, that's for sure...

[Equinox]

It's not for you to make Ren's defense, Ren should do that herself. How do you know Ren was not lying? DID seems a convenient excuse for Ren to contradict herself with no repercussions, is that acceptable to you?

That is a good point. I don't know if Ren is lying about having DID, but I do know the age discrepancy is connected to that. I only posted that defense because I believed Ren was not coming back. I'd have preferred Ren to do it themselves, since I could compare what I had to their response. It's been 48 hours since inHimshallibe sent Ren a prod, and Ren hasn't posted; I could only assume Ren isn't going to post at all.

I wouldn't say there are "no repercussions." DID is not a crutch. Suddenly 180ing on a case, for example, would still elicit suspicion. Ren is, after all, a "one-player hydra," not an actual hydra, and I'd think the two personalities have a place to reconcile at the very least.

The only thing I would overlook would be minor stuff like the age thing we've been discussing. Everything else is fair game, even for a real hydra.

[andrew94]

i think ren is scum because she keeps asking me lots of questions and making every1 join in, making it extremely hard for me to look for wolves.
she then lurks when we are accusing her.

equinox is scum because he/she randomly defends ren, how do u know whats really going on?

also, i think we should also focus on the replacements since all they are doing is asking questions again

[Equinox]

i think ren is scum because she keeps asking me lots of questions and making every1 join in, making it extremely hard for me to look for wolves.
she then lurks when we are accusing her.

Ren did not make the rest of us question you. Your responses did.

I think Ren is not lurking but is actually gone, but I can't be sure until the moderator says something.

equinox is scum because he/she randomly defends ren, how do u know whats really going on?

I only defended Ren's age discrepancy. I am not defending any of Ren's other actions. I will let Ren's replacement do that.

also, i think we should also focus on the replacements since all they are doing is asking questions again

Don't ask other people to focus on the replacements.

You

should be doing the scum hunting.

You

should be the one asking questions. Your question to me was a good first step.

[Sotty7]

Crazy posting. Equinox, I see you have posted a Memnon case and I don't have the time to look it over right now but I will over the weekend.

now, i find ren extremely sus cos hes just lurking while equionix well.... is just posting a lot of things to defend himself. i strongly suspect ren is scum or

equinox and memnon wolf pair

WOLF PAIR?!

andrew94, please do me a favor and read this post. I don't care if you skip the bottom part, but at least look at the first 6-7 lines.

We're using one of those four setups.

I actually think this is another pointer for AndrewTown. If he was scum he would have gotten a Goon or Mafia roleblocker PM. I'm not going to clear him 100% but this makes me even less interested in his lynch right now.

I'd like to second IAM's request for a deadline extension considering we're looking for replacements still.

If we do find a better reason for a lynch, for instance if you find a good case against me, then definitely, go for that one.

I am only advocating a policy lynch right now because andrew is playing pretty anti-town. Whether that means he is scum or not is matter for discussion.

That was a very... Strange thing to say. Left me scratching my head. However your view on Ren bussing Andrew was actually pretty good and I never thought about it that way. Of course, it is waaaaay too early to be talking about partners and bussing, but something to think about if either flips scum later.

Why didn't you move your vote at this point?

What vote?

You weren't voting at this point. Why didn't you vote for Ren or Andrew after this post?

There is absolutely nothing going on in this game,

so I am going to do something to spark discussion.

Vote: andrew94

For lack of anything else to go on, I am going to push for the policy lynch.

The bold is clearly a lie, since we're on page 6. This post so scummy it hurts my teeth.

Vote: Memnon

Care to explain? I understand, but put it in your own words. Why is it a lie?

If you understand why do you need an explanation?

For clarity, you stated quite strongly that there was nothing to go on. This is a common newbscum thing to say to try and discourage the town or because they can't fake scum hunting yet. It was page six, plenty of stuff has happened at this point, to say otherwise is a lie.

Cuz hes town but hes acting pretty anti-town so he is more of a hindrance to the town than a help. Therefore we policy lynch him. Not that my vote matters a whole lot, as it is still only L-2.

So you are voting for someone you think is town. Not helpful.

No, but there was nothing else to go on at the time. Better to lynch an anti-town than do let the day fizzle out.

What do you think the purpose of a newbie game is?

How likely do you think it was for the game to fizzle out?

Why do you STILL insist there was nothing to go on?

Equinox's reasoning about Ren's age is actually pretty reasonable. That is if Ren really has DID. It would be nice to hear Ren's thoughts but that is very unlikely now.

Okay I'm kinda skimming the rest now so I must be tired. Going to bed and I'll read the rest tomorrow.

[andrew94]

Crazy posting. Equinox, I see you have posted a Memnon case and I don't have the time to look it over right now but I will over the weekend.

now, i find ren extremely sus cos hes just lurking while equionix well.... is just posting a lot of things to defend himself. i strongly suspect ren is scum or

equinox and memnon wolf pair

WOLF PAIR?!

andrew94, please do me a favor and read this post. I don't care if you skip the bottom part, but at least look at the first 6-7 lines.

We're using one of those four setups.

I actually think this is another pointer for AndrewTown. If he was scum he would have gotten a Goon or Mafia roleblocker PM. I'm not going to clear him 100% but this makes me even less interested in his lynch right now.

ok im gonna try this...

WHAT KIND OF bullcrap is this.
just cos i said wolf does that mean im not? wtf? so im suddenly andrew town now?you have absolutely no reason to trust me. so why are you saying i am town? BECAUSE U ARE THE FREAKING WOLF THATS WHY@!

[Equinox]

O_o

That has got to be the funniest reaction I have ever seen. andrew94 is town.

Vote count has me on andrew94 at the moment, so...

Unvote, Vote: Memnon

[Sotty7]

Andrew, I have been saying you are probably town for a long while now, in fact since I replaced in. Are you even reading the thread in it's totality?

[Sotty7]

Okay so Equinox's case on Memnon isn't too bad. He certainly is pretty scummy at this point in the game. I do have a question for you though Equinox. Did you do your iso on Memnon before or after you decided to vote him? If after, what made you move your vote there in the first place?

My big problem with Memnon is the policy lynch. He keeps saying over and over that he wants to lynch Andrew for being anti-town. It's almost like he knows that the scummy stuff Andrew is doing isn't because he is scum. I mean, who leaps first to anti-town over scummy in their mind? Scum who know who the person committing the acts aren't on their scum team.

Also a policy lynch is a great way to get rid of a player with as little responsibility as possible. Lets say we lynch Andrew and he flips town. Come tomorrow we're back in here looking at the people who ran him up and they already have an excuse. “Oh I didn't know if he was scum, I voted him on policy, for being anti-town” Not cool. Memnon keeps pushing the falsehood that nothing has happened and that he has no scum reads. I can't believe this for one second and I find him extremely suspect for it.

I'd like to request

an official vote count

before any more votes go on Memnon. I also want to see who his top two are. No excuses.

[Memnon]

I'd like to request

an official vote count

before any more votes go on Memnon. I also want to see who his top two are. No excuses.

Fine.

My top two are NDP and I Am Innocent.

I Am Innocent because he out of the three replacements has done little or no scumhunting. He basically just came in and jumped on me. I know this might sound OMGUS to you, but it seems a bit too opportunistic to me. Also, this pushing everyone for their top 2. Do you have a legitimate reason for pressing everyone really hard about that, or is it just scum trying to get people to take a stance that you can refer to? Notice how he says he will label anyone as scum if they don't say their top 2.

NDP because he seems to contribute a bit, then fade back into the shadows for a while. He hasn't done anything actually scummy, but I find this behaviour a bit disconcerting.

[I Am Innocent]

I Am Innocent because he out of the three replacements has done little or no scumhunting.

As an SE, I would like to give you my take on scumhunting, or at least what has worked for me. You put pressure on people, see how they act. You look for inconsistencies, and call people on them. Think how you would act if you were scum and go from there. More on this below.

He basically just came in and jumped on me. I know this might sound OMGUS to you, but it seems a bit too opportunistic to me.

You were the scummiest player I felt when I came in. I stated my case. I gave you ample opportunity to either 1) prove me wrong or 2) do some scumhunting yourself. You have done neither of these, so I am going to keep the pressure on you with my vote.

Also, this pushing everyone for their top 2. Do you have a legitimate reason for pressing everyone really hard about that, or is it just scum trying to get people to take a stance that you can refer to?

I love Top 2 lists. Why, because Townie will honestly put there top two on the lists and give reasons why.

Mafia on the other hand has to make a choice. Do they put there teammate on the list, if not, will that link them up later. If they do, are they really prepared to bus them. Plus people need to put valid reasons for their top 2, which means Mafia need to come up with a reason on why they put a townie (or two) on their list. If they just follow others reasoning, it could be used as evidence of a lack of scumhunting.

Lastly, if a scum is in trouble at the deadline, say two wagons going with a scum vs townie, and his scum teammate moves on the townie, but yet never included that townie on his top 2 list, it could lead a trail back to them.

This line of yours:

"or is it just scum trying to get people to take a stance that you can refer to"

should really be changed to:

"or is it just townies trying to get people to take a stance that you can refer to"

[I Am Innocent]

Town

Scotty7
I Am Innocent
Ren
NomDePlume
Equinox
Andrew94
Memnom

Scum

I know I said this list is a very bad idea and is something we should not do, but since it is already public knowledge, I will use this as a point of reference.

Memnon, say you and Sotty7 each had four votes and ToG was going to be the hammer. If he voted Sotty7 over you, this post, and all later posts where he never showed any evidence of suspecting Sotty would be his downfall.

Do you see now why it is good for people to post who they suspect and why? Do you see why trails are a good thing?

On the flip side, saying who you don't suspect at all is not good because if the scum saw 6 people say they thought Player X was town, guess who the scum is going to target at night? Yep, the guy or girl they will never be able to get lynched.

That is why we ask for Top 2. If you suspect 4 people, list 4. But considering there are at least 2 scum, everybody should produce a list of

at least

the two scummiest players they see and why they think they are scummy.

Your list of me and NDP is a joke. Granted I am biased about myself cause I know my role, but ISO NDP and show me one scummy thing he has done?

If you can't find anything,

you are telling me we should off NDP for lurking when others have been much worse

?

[Memnon]

I have no problem with your attack on me when you came in. I was pointing out that you have done little else.

I'm satisfied with your reasoning for the top 2. I am against it at this point because personally I don't really have much to go on. You saw how weak the case I put up against you was.

Would it be possible to summarize or link your case against me, or what you have a problem with? I've let this go far too long.

[NomDePlume]

NDP because he seems to contribute a bit, then fade back into the shadows for a while. He hasn't done anything actually scummy, but I find this behaviour a bit disconcerting.

Yes, I've been a bit patchy on participation: sometimes it's RL stuff like work but mostly this week it's been weather related... the UK has been quite sunny and warm (not something to be taken for granted) so mafia has taken a back seat.

IAI exhibited his top two fetish in my last game when he was town, so I expect he uses it in every game and isn't alignment dependent.

[Equinox]

I'm answering on my mobile right now, so I'll only answer what directly pertains to me or what's worth noting for the moment. I'll address everything else once I have some real copying and pasting capability.

Andrew, I have been saying you are probably town for a long while now, in fact since I replaced in. Are you even reading the thread in it's totality?

andrew94 has shown repeatedly that he doesn't, which was why I was willing to lynch him in the first place. That lynch can wait, though, since it looks like he's started pointing fingers. We might not need a policy lynch after all.

Okay so Equinox's case on Memnon isn't too bad. He certainly is pretty scummy at this point in the game. I do have a question for you though Equinox. Did you do your iso on Memnon before or after you decided to vote him? If after, what made you move your vote there in the first place?

I did a quick isolation read when I tried to find questions for him but couldn't, hence the vote. Isolated again for PBPA.