Mini 971: Princess bride - They all lived .......

[Parama]

Jack:
ISOs 1-3 are pushing a Sens RVS wagon. Good wagon, bad reasons. But then again knowing Jack it's just his m- *gets shot for approaching meta territory*

Heck, rest of D1 is more of the same. There's no content though - he's basically active lurking.

fos:ekiM

Vote:DDD

4 more votes please.

Yes, thanks for all the helpful information. Oh wait

bv not scumhunting is null tell. Who are you going to vote for now?

META
AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY A BAD ONE

DDD is scum because:

a) weird dancing around the sens wagon in iso 1,2,3. His first comment on the game is to object to lynching sens, but he is just fine with l-1...this is his only input on the day. This is mafioso wanting the lynch to happen.

b) Next is his "town lean on mike, parama is MUCH more likely to be scum, I'll vote a lurker" vote from day 2. "tut tut we must force him to scumhunt" when DDD hasn't done jack himself.

c) Finally in ISO 8 he finds a reason to stick with his bv vote, he is clearly scum just settling down

I waited around to see what he'd do, answer is nothing.

HE POSTED CONTENT! IT'S A MIRACLE!
And look this is a solid case. +town points
Though point 2 is fairly hypocritical <.<

I think DDD is guilty for role related reasons. Lynch him please.

The best reason. Except it's kinda a lie.

ISO 27 = good questions. Don't like his read on ML, especially with no reasons behind it.

I think CKD is scum.

Thanks for letting us know.

I don't feel like I have strong reads.

Work on improving them then? <_< That's kinda what I'm doing here.

His horror case is definitely his best and I agree with most of it even though he's only 3rd on my suspicions list.

The doubt of SPS's claim seems honest, can't exactly fault him for it though I don't agree with it.

Anyways I can never read this guy, this game is no exception. Jack makes good cases but rarely posts relevant content... lots of pushing lynches for no reason (I have been on the receiving end of this before <_<)

And yes I am being incredibly snide in this read. I can’t help it. Jack’s earned it

[Parama]

DDD:

Are you implying that you would be ok with 1 more vote? Since you specifically object to 2 more votes but say nothing about 1 more vote.

Since there is a functional difference of dead (2 votes) versus not dead (1 vote), yes.

Then vote Sens maybe? If you're okay with 1 more vote you can do it yourself y'know.

I’ve got a town lean on Mike right now, I’m reading his efforts as being in good faith. Conversely, I think the person in opposition to him (Parama) is much more likely to be scum. I like the little content I’ve seen from KMD as well, but I’m naturally more suspicious of him because he’s capable of deluding himself into thinking other people are scum even when he’s scum himself. Most everyone else currently blends into a mush of people I’ve not played with before and don’t stand out at all.

Not playing with someone =/= good reason to ignore them.
Also you find me scum solely because I'm opposing ekiM?
And then you allow yourself to doubt your Kmd read based on meta. Mmk that's not okay.

"town lean on mike" but his efforts are in good faith. I don't think scum's efforts are ever in good faith in a 1 scum game (which this now is).

Only a town lean on mike though, and parama is "much more likely to be scum".

Umm, I think Mike's efforts at scumhunting are in good faith; thus I think he's likely town. I'm not sure what the issue is here.

Care to point out these efforts? Or are you just going to add words without evidence in order to not prove a point you're trying to push?

vote bv? Not scumhunting? Have you played with bv before?

Once, he actually tried that game as town before flaking, this time he hasn't even done that.

Revenge of bad meta reasons. Wow. You could pay more attention to what's being done exclusively in-thread and it would help you find scum better.

Correction, I just realized I've played two games with him; I was referencing a newbie game where I believe that summary fits. There was also Quiz Show Mafia, but that had rather different rules from a conventional mafia game.

And this is relevant?

DDD, what is your stance on the Parama-ekiM fracas?

I still think Mike is town, but I'm now inclined to believe its a town/town fight. Mostly because Mike noted Parama's ridiculous rate of posting which even when its low content I find scum have a general disinclination to do.

Bad reason to pull away... and if ekiM said this then you're continuing to buddy up to his reasoning. Do not want. DO NOT WANT.

DDD is scum because:

a) weird dancing around the sens wagon in iso 1,2,3. His first comment on the game is to object to lynching sens, but he is just fine with l-1...this is his only input on the day. This is mafioso wanting the lynch to happen.

You were fine with L-1 as well, hypocrite.

But... Jack ASKED the question. And you're completely missing the point. Jack didn't care if it was L-1 or a lynch. You cared only if it was a lynch but not L-1. Pay attention please.

I waited around to see what he'd do, answer is

nothing

scumhunt.

FTFW.

Cite examples of scumhunting from your part prior to this post that weren't based off meta or off of things ekiM has said. I certainly can't find any.

Parama do you plan on doing anything today other than blithely asserting that you're not scum and pointing back at the beginning of the day as some tour de force implicating Mike as scum and revealing you as town?

Wait for it... wait for it... OH LOOK I JUST POSTED 8 WALLS OF TEXT.

And now... INB4BANDWAGONACCUSATIONS LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Unvote; Vote: Parama

Just because you try to make a joke of it doesn't mean that you haven't lazily jumped on the wagon spawned by a lunatic with no results or bad results of some sort to try and lynch a townie.

What happened to your town read? Are you going to switch to another popular target in order to get the wagon off you? That's scummy.

I didn't lie, but I'm more interested in Parama and SPS at the moment, explain why later.

You should add Mike to the list (though this conflicts with Parama unless extreme bussing has occurred) because he's seen me get called out by a paranoid cop in Second String Muppets before when I was town. He was scum and completely dropped his town read of me to play follow the cop, just like this game.

Now you're copping out of your ekiM read. Did you suddenly crack under pressure and now everyone is scum to you? Looks that way.

Unvote; Vote: ekiM

Game is stagnating and Mike should die for so casually tossing aside his read to play follow the alleged power role, put those two together and Mike needs more votes.

What the hell happened to your reads? Why haven't you given a good reason to change?
(side-note: I approve of the vote even if I don't approve of the reasons for it )

I've gone from thinking Parama is scum to a [insult redacted] who will jump on any bandwagon at this point. I was also waiting to see if Mike could explain his actions which seemed extremely scummy to me. Mike has not done so and that game has stagnated over the weekend and thus the best course of action is to bandwagon the scummiest player.

1. I'm pushing a wagon that nobody else approves of. This is bandwagoning how?
2. Earlier you liked ekiM's actions. Now you're backtracking and saying they're scummy. Um. What.

So yeah DDD is another of those rather scummy people, except there's lots of contradictions here. Not liking those at all. And there's hypocrisy too.

FoS: DDD

[Parama]

ekiM:
(the moment you’ve all been waiting for)

So, Parama. He asks people to vote him at the start so he can OMGUS. That's removing information about whom he chooses to go after. "Let's not worry about the miller claim, we should scumhunt" then... doesn't scumhunt. And spams a page arguing about meta. Fine with this vote.

Reaching for reasons to hold onto a vote. I've been over this before. This is just terrible.

bv310

- The only game relevant thing he did yesterday in 6 posts was make a random vote.

DDD

- Asked why he should vote Sensfan.

Steam-Powered Shovel

- Said almost nothing.

wolframnhart

- Said almost nothing. Ho hum.

Vote: bv310

. Say something.

Calls out 4 people for saying nothing... and only waits for a response from one. Pretty weak. That's basically "lynch all lurkers".

Also, from the same post.

Parama

- Reactive in RVS. Made 27 posts and said about three non-trivial things. Votes for me because I voted for him. Yippee.

He throws off my case as me OMGUS voting. This is blatant misrep and he's obviously not even paying attention to my reasons.

Shovel, yesterday you were asking wolframnhart to follow you onto Para. Now you're voting for wolf. What, if anything has changed?

Seeming like he wants to turn the town against me but doesn't vote himself and doesn't give much real reasoning. He wants others to make the case for him.

ISO 6 he makes a wall about how he finds me scummy and then proceeds to hold onto his bv vote. Um, hello? Did you lose your brain? Did you have it in the first place?

As for your logic, it goes something like this:

• ekiM's reasons for suspecting me are terrible.
  
• Scum are more likely to suspect for terrible reasons.
  
• => ekiM is likely scum.

Oversimplifying my logic - he doesn't understand it (it's not too difficult to grasp) so he tries to blow it off as worthless. He also accuses me of active lurking even though I'm certainly scumhunting.

Next post is more of the same - still blowing off my reasons as "worthless"

ISO 10-12: He completely misses the point. He's singling me out for a vote that I admit was bandwagoning... while most votes on the wagon were nothing more than that, though several players would try to cover that up. And he finally votes me because of this one little thing, not everything else. Reaching for reasons more? I'm just being truthful - I don't have to lie to make a good case.

Jack's a competent player so I doubt he's a townie making a mistake. I don't see a scum motivation for coming out like that to take out one guy. I don't see any particular reason to believe DDD to be town.

Unvote; Vote: DDD

.

"blah blah blah Parama is scum guys blah blah blah oh hey the DDD wagon is taking off I'm going to appeal to Jack and join it."
Did you see any particular reason to believe DDD to be scum? You didn't give any and you haven't done so prior to this post.

MacavityLock

- Feel he's town.

Parama

- Still a good lynch.

....

horrordude0215/bv310

- bv310 total lurker. And horrordude is not making me think town. Question for you: if you don't think there's a need to rush the end of the day, why did you ask for a claim from SPS before someone was willing to hammer him?

Hmm.

Unvote; Vote: horrordude0215

.

3 things to point out.
1. Lack of willingness to comment on ML. Just gives town read with no reasons and little mention of him all game.
2. More pushing of my lynch... he's not voting me anymore, if he supports my lynch then he should be on it.
3. Gives the most reason for the wagon being built up - just an excuse to wagon with Jack again. Why are you buddying Jack so much, anyways?

Oh wow, good point. Shovel what were you thinking Jack was doing then when you followed him?

Answer your own question too. I want your response to this question.

There's just nothing to make me feel he's town and plenty leading me to believe he's scum. Add to the fact that he's extreme distancing from ML (the other scummiest player) and guys I think we've found our team!
Seriously, I ctrl+f'ed his entire ISO and found about 7 mentions of ML in all.

[Parama]

Vote stays of course.

HoS: MacavityLock

because I don’t have two votes.
Scumlist:
ekiM-MacavityLock (the actual scum)
horror
DDD
Kmd

Mod: I'm going to be V/LA from 6/6 to 6/9.

[ekiM]

Also, if I were lying about my beliefs, wouldn't I have been acutely aware that you'd remember Muppets and call me out for my skullduggery? So it must be the case that I do actually believe what I'm saying.

Isn't this just straight up WIFOM? Here's nearly half a dozen thought process that could've justified your behavior in your mind...

1) Because you forgot you did the exact same thing in Muppets and thus thought the play was safe.

2) Because you knew you were doing the same thing as in Muppets, but you hoped I wouldn't remember it.

3) Because you knew you were doing the same thing as in Muppets, but you were hoping for my quicklynch and thus I wouldn't be able to object anyways.

4) Because you knew you were doing the same thing as in Muppets, but you figured you could argue that the move was technically correct even if it wasn't.

5) Because you knew you were doing the same thing as in Muppets, but you figured you could shake suspicion because of the WIFOM potential.

So, no, I'm not exactly buying the WIFOM back door you've left yourself as a sufficient defense of your play.

I don't generally do things as scum that blatantly contradict what I believe about Mafia theory, because that's a stupid and unnecessary thing to do and it's easy to get caught out.

If you don't care for that truth, it was an aside anyway. Here's my main "defence" which you seem to have just straight-up ignored: "Everyone is aware that investigative roles can get bad info. That doesn't make it irrational to sometimes decide to follow claimed results. Especially in a pseudo-D1 with little information to go on due to the SK quicklynch. Saying that because I've seen you be implicated by bad info before I should be especially wary of it happening to you again is a bad argument."

It's just not the case that it'd be incorrect to follow a claimed result today. I know you like to act outraged that anyone would ever vote for you, but it doesn't change anything. Following a claimed result on someone on a D2 like this where there has been little productive discussion and D1 was a quicklynch on an SK is fine.

There's no reason to believe that I don't believe that, or wouldn't make the rational judgement to follow Jack as town. Nothing you cite from Muppets changes that or has any relevance to this game. Everyone knows that roles can get bad info. The fact that you can cite a game where I've seen it happen is

totally

irrelevant.

[CryMeARiver]

Glad to replace in! I'm so psyched (this was the oldest large theme game that I was familiar with)
So I've never tried this before, but I know I like it when replacements do it and refresh my memory, so if I like it, must be good. Here goes nothing (and by nothing I mean a page by page analysis).

Page 1

Confirmations
Wolf does what I would have done and policy votes bv. Good job wolf!
Parama bandwagon
Beginnings of Sens bandwagon

Page 2

Hey look, Sens, bv, and animorph are all from the same place! MS reunion!
KMD "serious" votes ekiM, seriously? Later reiterates how scummy he find ekiM
ML claims Miller and has a "semi-random" vote on SPS for trying to force a joke
Sens vote ML for claiming miller
Parama wins town points for reaction to miller claim

Page 3

Wolf gains town points for his open mind about miller claim
I like Parama's scumhunt joke, but KMD ruins it and takes it too seriously
Parama and KMD argue about JackScum because Jack didn't provide reason for his vote. Guess who else didn't? Kmd! +scum points
Parama's sig is awesome +awesome points
Yet another pointless meta argument that just sidetracks town
Parama points out that argument is just sidetracking town +town points
KMD finally posts reason for saying ekiM is scum.

ekiM, however, is legitimately scummy trying to stay in the background by jumping the main wagon and contributing to the popular joke.

For the same reason Parama suspected Jack, that you shot down? +scum points

Page 4

Sens selfvotes +scum points
ML says Sens' selfvote is very townie. +dumb points
DDD and Jack argument-I think Jack is just trying to be funny, but DDD has a good point +little town points
ekiM says he has never seen a miller claim, but then says that some people do like to lynch millers. Also has bullshit reasons for find Parama scummy. +scum points
SPS chimes in saying he likes his vote on Parama. No reasoning. +little scum points
CKD says that "ML is not the lynch for today" which I don't like. If you find him scummiest, you vote/lynch him, no matter what his claim. Maybe just a slip of the tongue, so I'll let it by for now.
Sens switches from voting himself to voting Jack because he is voting him for no reason

Page 5

Animorph distracts the town with meaningless banter
Jack continues to tunnel Sens
Parama drops suspicions and bandwagons Sens with no reasoning
ML makes a protown vig comment +town points
KMD drops suspicions and bandwagons Sens with no reasoning
Sens hammers himself. +Fuck you points

Page 6

Wolf says that Sens is probably a frustrated townie but leaves a caveat at the end. Trying too hard to appear town? +little scum points
Twilight banter. Hey, look Bv returns after lynch. +scum points
Probably still at least on scum on this list due to the SK flip:

SensFan (7) bv310, curiouskarmadog, animorpherv1, Jack, Parama, Kmd439, SensFan

ekiM's 143 is actually pretty sweet +town points (Question though, were you working on this during the night or did you do it after the lynch?)
SPS and Jack vote without reasoning. If you know my meta, I hate this. +little scum points
ekiM's objective standpoint on himself should not be read as protown. He SHOULD answer his own question to himself though.


More should come later. But from what I've seen

Vote: KMD FoS: Jack and Parama

[Parama]

You gave me town points throughout your post. You FoS me at the end. Paying attention?

[horrordude0215]

Debonair Danny DiPietro - Getting a scum read here. He has a total of 13 posts in a 12 page game, and I'm not seeing a lot of content. I also don't like the fact that he's trying to divert attention away from the Sens lynch wagon. Sure it was a self hammer, but there's usually

some

info you can get from the wagon, no? Thinking there's a scumbuddy there with him.

DDD, Requesting a claim.

1. Giving a reason that could apply to his slot for lynching DDD
2. Trying to draw out a claim.
3. Not voting on the wagon he's requesting a claim from

Yeah this is not a good combination to start on.

1. I found him scummy... your point?
2. He was at L-1, I found him scummy, so I asked for a claim.
3. What part of

L-1

do you not understand? And it was always my understanding that you don't request a claim unless you're not on the wagon.

We still have another 4 days before lynch, Shovel... why are you trying to rush this?

Requesting a claim from you.

YOU'RE DOING IT AGAIN.
1. Requests claim
2. Doesn't vote or even FoS SPS

My requesting a claim from him was me FoSing him. Again, though, he was at L-1, so voting him would be a lynch. Are you really that dumb?

lolwat? All I did was request a claim!

Without finding SPS suspicious at all, yes.

Generally, when someone asks you to claim, it means that you're suspicious of them.

Oh look, there’s the flavor speculation. Yeah that’s terrible.

Yeah, YOU explain how the Grandfather makes ANY sense as a Cop. Then get back to me.

Because I'm totally pro-town and lynching me would NOT be in your best interest

Waste of a post.

I wasn't paying attention before but I am totally seeing this wagon now.

Reading the thread is tech. You should do it some time.

[CryMeARiver]

You gave me town points throughout your post. You FoS me at the end. Paying attention?

I FoS'd you because you dropped your suspicions to bandwagon Sens

[ekiM]

Deadline is tomorrow morning by the way, Cry me a River.

[CryMeARiver]

Deadline is tomorrow morning by the way, Cry me a River.

Oh come on farside!

Requesting two day extension due to recent replacement

[horrordude0215]

I second the extension request

[Parama]

Debonair Danny DiPietro - Getting a scum read here. He has a total of 13 posts in a 12 page game, and I'm not seeing a lot of content. I also don't like the fact that he's trying to divert attention away from the Sens lynch wagon. Sure it was a self hammer, but there's usually

some

info you can get from the wagon, no? Thinking there's a scumbuddy there with him.

DDD, Requesting a claim.

1. Giving a reason that could apply to his slot for lynching DDD
2. Trying to draw out a claim.
3. Not voting on the wagon he's requesting a claim from

Yeah this is not a good combination to start on.

1. I found him scummy... your point?
2. He was at L-1, I found him scummy, so I asked for a claim.
3. What part of

L-1

do you not understand? And it was always my understanding that you don't request a claim unless you're not on the wagon.

If he's at L-1 you could express your suspicion in a different way than by merely asking for a claim. A posted FoS would've been fine.
And it seems like all you cared about was the claim.

We still have another 4 days before lynch, Shovel... why are you trying to rush this?

Requesting a claim from you.

YOU'RE DOING IT AGAIN.
1. Requests claim
2. Doesn't vote or even FoS SPS

My requesting a claim from him was me FoSing him. Again, though, he was at L-1, so voting him would be a lynch. Are you really that dumb?[/quote]
And again all you cared about was the claim.

lolwat? All I did was request a claim!

Without finding SPS suspicious at all, yes.

Generally, when someone asks you to claim, it means that you're suspicious of them.[/quote]
That's not implied by "please claim"
For instance:
Horrordude, I want you to claim.

Does that say "I find you suspicious" at all? NOPE.

Oh look, there’s the flavor speculation. Yeah that’s terrible.

Yeah, YOU explain how the Grandfather makes ANY sense as a Cop. Then get back to me.[/quote]
Does it matter? Flavor speculation = worthless. Someone brought up earlier a game where the little boy was a SK. How does that make sense? Get back to me once you figure it out.

See my point?

I wasn't paying attention before but I am totally seeing this wagon now.

Reading the thread is tech. You should do it some time.[/quote]
I was busy. If you look at my posts you can see why. Obviously I am reading, I just wasn't expressing it.

[Parama]

Also ekiM, you're here, mind responding to my post?

[CryMeARiver]

Also ekiM, you're here, mind responding to my post?

And my question posed to you.

[Jack]

Let's just lynch horror sticking at soft claim at l-2 with deadline coming up, after eagerly demanding claims from two people.

[horrordude0215]

Parama, for future reference, whenever I ask for a claim, that basically means I'm willing to hammer. Is that good enough for you.

Also,

V/LA as indicated in the Sig

[Jack]

Parama, for future reference, whenever I ask for a claim, that basically means I'm willing to hammer. Is that good enough for you.

Also,

V/LA as indicated in the Sig

"Claim please DDD, I'm ready to hammer"
"Claim please SPS, I'm ready to hammer"
*soft claim*
*soft claim*
*deadline tomorrow*
"V/LA till tomorrow guys"

[horrordude0215]

I can claim now if you guys want

[Parama]

CMAR, I see no question directed at me.

Horror, I have no way to verify that, and it's meta. Regardless of whether it's true it's still a cop-out from giving real suspicions so I'm not buying it.

Notice how I still want ekiM and ML lynched over you. Your thoughts on both those players would be appreciated, by the way.

Hell, I want everyone's opinion on ML. He's been going unnoticed all game and he's also scum so that's not a good combination.

[horrordude0215]

Parama, for future reference, whenever I ask for a claim, that basically means I'm willing to hammer. Is that good enough for you.

Also,

V/LA as indicated in the Sig

"Claim please DDD, I'm ready to hammer"
"Claim please SPS, I'm ready to hammer"
*soft claim*
*soft claim*
*deadline tomorrow*
"V/LA till tomorrow guys"

I've posted that in all of my games, so don't give me that shit.

[Jack]

Sorry Par, I read the case and ISO'd him but I don't see anything particularly scummy. He could be but I'm not interested.

[Jack]

I can claim now if you guys want

Just die.

[horrordude0215]

I will not be able to get on before tomorrow, and in case the deadline extension isn't granted:

I am Westley's Lover, the person that Sensfan tried to marry. I am a hider, who, if I hide with Prince Humperdink or a person targeted for a kill, I will be killed. Otherwise, I am protected from night kills. I cannot claim my true name or else I will be modkilled.

[CryMeARiver]

From what I've seen, I dislike KMD's play the most.

Ends RVS with a serious vote on ekiM, called scum.
Argues with Parama because Parama finds Jack suspicious for pushing a Sens lynch without doing a "damn thing". KMD doesn't see a Jack lynch.
Can't come up with any reasoning for this suspicion until a a page or two later when he says ekiM is scum for bandwagoning Parama without any reasoning (staying in the background). This is virtually the same reason Parama suspected Jack. Blatant contradiction much?
KMD drops entire suspicions and case against ekiM and bandwagons Sens putting him at L1 with:

Unvote, Vote Sens

Other scum are Shovel and ekiM.

being his only reasoning.