Mini 988 - Small Town Mafia GAME OVER

[Concerned]

/confirm

[Concerned]

Vote : Antonio

Never trust a mustache .

[Concerned]

Did someone say wagon!

Vote : Exilon

[Concerned]

With that said, I approve of my wagon. Keep going, please. Just don't let me die, that'd be bad.

Eh, this.

unvote

[Concerned]

The butterfly does appear to be a fairly obvious vote at this point, he's said a few silly things.

However I'm going to assume he's fairly inexperienced and I can't count how many times both town and scum have jumped on the newbie early on simply because he/she isn't careful enough about what they say.

Also I feel like the whole "rolefishing" angle is a dead end, I think butterfly read the word "investigate" in Exilon's preceding post and his mind immediately jumped to cop which is why he mentioned it, null tell.

I just feel like I've gone down this road all to often with players like butterfly, and I'm not convinced he has any more chance of being scum than newb town.

Vote : Antonio

In the hopes that he'll say something.

[Concerned]

@Zach here are two newbie games I've played, they're the best examples of what I mean that I've played in on this site.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13232
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 10&start=0

Sure they are newbie games, but neither of the players were

complete

To be honest I find it quite weird a player of your experience needs examples, you must know what I mean. The bottom line is look at posts like this:

im sorry, im still really tired and not completly sure what im doing...
i think ill take an nap

unvote

before i get in any more trouble

They're too obvious guy, the only reason scum would ever say things like this is if they were newbs and coincidentally the only reason townies would say things like this is if they were newbs. I just feel like the probability of butterfly being scum is the same probability that any given player in our list is scum, and the silly comments he's made don't tell us anything.

[Concerned]

Dota is a pc game, lasts about an hour max per game .

[Concerned]

Yeah Davidparker is making very little sense, but sadly talking rubbish doesn't make you scum necessarily.

I think Oxide mistook Zach and I's early wagon hop for an actual eagerness to lynch a player, and perhaps he was stretching a tad but I can't blame him.

In short I don't agree with any of the current candidates for the moment, at least not with any of the current arguments agaisnt them. Something is missing, I'd like the people who have been mia thus far to contribute before I form any solid opinions.

[Concerned]

Change of opinion: If I fail to find a better lynch I'm perfectly happy to vote butterfly simply because he's the type of player who will need to die eventually anyway, and we might as well get it over with on day 1.

I was hoping he'd improve and offer some content, but if he's just going to ride the noob train until the end of the game then why bother keeping him around.

[Concerned]

Also before we lynch butterfly, I'd like every player who hasn't done so to post their opinions on a butterfly lynch.

I would like this done before he reaches L-1 preferably because people on L-1 inevitably get lynched before I want them to, something about players on L-1 makes people want to hammer, scum and town a like .

[Concerned]

Also before we lynch butterfly, I'd like every player who hasn't done so to post their opinions on a butterfly lynch.

I would like this done before he reaches L-1 preferably because people on L-1 inevitably get lynched before I want them to, something about players on L-1 makes people want to hammer, scum and town a like .

I would like a claim from him before he is lynched.

Kinda goes without saying IMO .

[Concerned]

i was trying to keep these to myself but Jason really seems to whant to see them
so here are my two main suspects and why....

1. Antonio- he has not been posting and when he douse he only puts a small amount of information... and most of the time its not game-realated
2. jasonT1981- you have been pokeing at me from day 1. would you be trying to divert atention from yourself.

Lurkerhunt + OMGUS? Is that all you've got for us?

[Concerned]

Exilon, I think you're misrepresenting Nacho a bit, when you put the above in context it makes slightly more sense.

As it is I agree with Nacho to a certain extent about the VI thing, but I think Zach put it aptly in post 241, I wanna see what everyone has to say about the butterfly lynch and then I'll place my vote.

[Concerned]

Waiting on Antonio's thoughts before hammering...

If anyone is heavily agaisnt this, speak now, it may or may not stop me from hammering but I'd like to know either way.

[Concerned]

I just don't get your incentive here oxide, at best butterfly's chances of being town are the same as any other player, and he's clearly not going to be a productive member of the town.

Why are you agaisnt the lynch? Do you think him acting as he has increases his chance of being town? In other words do you have a town read on him? I agree that he a lot of the things he's said could be written off as immature or newbie comments but I still think he has more chance of being scum then anyone else at this point, I've observed that newbie town at least try to scum hunt, granted it's usually fairly poorly with liberal usage of crap-logic, but attempts are made. I just want to know your motivation here.

[Concerned]

Eh, look back to my previous posts, I was awaiting the town's go-ahead to hammer as well as some input from antonio, as far as I'm concerned we aren't quite done discussing day 1.

I am for the butterfly wagon and I am willing to hammer, I was just letting discussion take it's course. How Jason and Zach found that scummy is really beyond me.

[Concerned]

Eh, look back to my previous posts, I was awaiting the town's go-ahead to hammer as well as some input from antonio, as far as I'm concerned we aren't quite done discussing day 1.

I am for the butterfly wagon and I am willing to hammer, I was just letting discussion take it's course. How Jason and Zach found that scummy is really beyond me.

Your post felt fake.

Also felt like you're putting pressure on another player to hammer while supporting a different lynch with your vote.

Your spidey-sense is way off.
My vote was on antonio from way back didn't mean anything, there was hardly any reason to unvote when he was in no danger of being lynched. I hadn't even thought about where my vote was, as it was going to be on butterfly in any case.

You're really stretching with this and I'm trying to figure out why, what's your motivation for suddenly backing off butterfly hmmm?

[Concerned]

Anyway, Concerned's last post was extremely scummy. He's pushing for the lynch, but isn't on the wagon, presumably cause he wants someone else to hammer.

Zachrulez made a very good point here. Also people, note that Concerned has been distancing from The Butterfly. Originally giving him a n00bie town read, he quickly changed that to a scum read. This is scummy and I don't like it.

Firstly I've addressed Zach's point, I did want to see butterfly lynched I was just waiting for more discussion, I wasn't going to put my vote on him when I was the

hammer

and I wanted

more information

. The fact that YOU of all people are making this point agaisnt me is ridiculous and sets of alarm bells for me, because you have the benefit of being in the the other game I am playing in, where I threw a little hissy fit when someone hammered before enough information was gathered from the lynch
Game linked here in case anyone is interested - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=14234

And secondly the "distancing from butterfly" you are misrepresenting me COMPLETELY here is the original post I made about butterfly.

The butterfly does appear to be a fairly obvious vote at this point, he's said a few silly things.

However I'm going to assume he's fairly inexperienced and I can't count how many times both town and scum have jumped on the newbie early on simply because he/she isn't careful enough about what they say.

Also I feel like the whole "rolefishing" angle is a dead end, I think butterfly read the word "investigate" in Exilon's preceding post and his mind immediately jumped to cop which is why he mentioned it, null tell.

I just feel like I've gone down this road all to often with players like butterfly, and

I'm not convinced he has any more chance of being scum than newb town.

Vote : Antonio

In the hopes that he'll say something.

I have bolded the part I am referring to I don't say I think butterfly is newb town like you claim here:

Also people, note that Concerned has been distancing from The Butterfly. Originally giving him a n00bie town read

I said I'm not convinced he has any MORE chance of being a newb town than scum, I fully acknowledged the possibility that he could be scum. I then changed my mind when butterfly made virtually no attempt to scum hunt or correct his ways; as I have since mentioned I feel the difference between village-idiot town players and village-idiot scum players is that townie's tend to at least try to scum hunt, usually their cases are based on crap-logic but it's an attempt, whereas I feel the only attempt butterfly has made to scum hunt has effectively been "token" scum hunting. You saying I said butterfly was newb town is blatant scum painting.

My first reaction to this forming wagon was that it

has

to be scum fueled but I suppose that's a bit of an overreaction, I wouldn't be surprised however if either Exilon or SMBF are being opportunistic, but I'm not quite sure it's worthy of a FoS just yet.

Also what's straw manning? I also have a big problem with lines like "this post felt fake" please outline exactly why you find it fake so I can argue my point, making a point like "player x is acting fake" just subtly paints me as scum with no argument which I can argue agaisnt.

Anyway since Zach has unvoted I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and

unvote

;

vote : Butterfly

[Concerned]

Firstly I've addressed Zach's point, I did want to see butterfly lynched I was just waiting for more discussion, I wasn't going to put my vote on him when I was the hammer and I wanted more information. The fact that YOU of all people are making this point agaisnt me is ridiculous and sets of alarm bells for me, because you have the benefit of being in the the other game I am playing in, where I threw a little hissy fit when someone hammered before enough information was gathered from the lynch
Game linked here in case anyone is interested - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14234

I think this against the rules and warrants a modkill, Concerned. Also, stupid defense. I don't think the main issue Zach had with you was the fact you were refraining to hammer, yet you talk like that's the issue. Personally, I saw the first post of this argument as very blatant teaching while "keeping appearances". None of what you said so far as shattered that belief.

Ok well I didn't realize that it was agaisnt the rules? I apologize profusely if it is, although I think calling for a mod kill is a tad extreme...

My first reaction to this forming wagon was that it has to be scum fueled but I suppose that's a bit of an overreaction, I wouldn't be surprised however if either Exilon or SMBF are being opportunistic, but I'm not quite sure it's worthy of a FoS just yet.

Lol No Concerned. I've expressed some "itches" I had with you from a while back. I'm not being opportunistic, if I wanted to, I would have hammered Butterfly a while ago. That would be being opportunistic. However, you started off bad and you're only getting worse. Not helping your case.

Oh ho ho, and how do you know that hammering butterfly is an opportunistic scum move? Know something about butterfly's alignment that I don't hmmm? Also substantiate this : "I've expressed some "itches" I had with you from a while back." because I don't see what you mean at all, a quick skim backwards has you agreeing with me on a few points actually.

Also what's straw manning? I also have a big problem with lines like "this post felt fake" please outline exactly why you find it fake so I can argue my point, making a point like "player x is acting fake" just subtly paints me as scum with no argument which I can argue agaisnt.

Straw manning is basically taking a piece of an argument or change it a little bit so it becomes easy to defend, also sometimes using it as a reason to invalidate the rest of the case. It's bad in the sense that you're not actually arguing against the point made against you, but rather a side-point which seems to be the right one; but isn't.

The post FELT fake to me. The POST. Zach addressed what he thought you were really doing with that post, which basically shows how the post could be seen as fake-concern.

Ok lets look at the posts in question:

Zack post 1.

Anyway, Concerned's last post was extremely scummy. He's pushing for the lynch, but isn't on the wagon, presumably cause he wants someone else to hammer.

Zach post 2.

Your post felt fake.

Also felt like you're putting pressure on another player to hammer while supporting a different lynch with your vote.

Maybe I misunderstood why exactly Zach was suspicious of me in the first place, he originally posted with the first post, which made me feel like his argument was based on me not hammering etc, you're saying that that's a separate issue and I need to address the alleged "fakeness" of my post? I'll do that.

I just don't get your incentive here oxide, at best butterfly's chances of being town are the same as any other player, and he's clearly not going to be a productive member of the town.

Why are you agaisnt the lynch? Do you think him acting as he has increases his chance of being town? In other words do you have a town read on him? I agree that he a lot of the things he's said could be written off as immature or newbie comments but I still think he has more chance of being scum then anyone else at this point, I've observed that newbie town at least try to scum hunt, granted it's usually fairly poorly with liberal usage of crap-logic, but attempts are made. I just want to know your motivation here.

All I was doing here was trying to establish a read on oxide for day 2, I wanted a clear stance from him on exactly how he felt about the wagon, and I wanted to know exactly why he was defending butterfly purely for the sake of day 2 information. Then when butterfly flipped and his alignment became apparent I could reference his responses and determine how scummy he was, I was suspicious of oxide defending butterfly at the time because I suspected he may be scum, and therefore had knowledge of butterfly's alignment, whether that meant he was defending his buddy or he was defending a townie in hopes of making himself look better on day 2 was still to be determined post-lynch, either way I wanted his reasons.

If I've missed anything you want addressed please tell me, I have no desire to "strawman" Zach's case, and if you interpreted my responses as if I was, then it was purely based off me misunderstanding of exactly what Zach found scummy about me.

Edit: Ninja'd by a few posts, gimme a sec.

[Concerned]

Ok well ninja posts don't change anything I said except I do feel I need to add:

Woo, hang on - You're reading it wrong. How is "I think this is against the rules and warrants a modkill" = "modkill this player"? I'm stating a fact, a violation of the game's rules, and a possible consequence of it - that by the way I have seen happening.

There is a huge leap between "suggesting a possible consequence of it" and "I think this is agaisnt the rules and

warrants

a modkill"

By saying you think it WARRANTS a mod-kill you are giving your opinion which is - I should be mod-killed.

[Concerned]

For the record I do stuff on weekends, particularly Friday's and Saturdays so don't expect much activity from me on those days.
Sunday once my hangover wears off is usually my first weekend post.
Just posted this from my phone without actually reading anything.

[Concerned]

But yeah...

Unvote, Vote: Concerned

, pretty much for this:

As it is I agree with Nacho to a certain extent about the VI thing, but I think Zach put it aptly in post 241, I wanna see what everyone has to say about the butterfly lynch and then I'll place my vote.

I don't like that you had to ask everyone else's opinion before you decided to place a vote. If you're a townie that thinks he's found scum, you really shouldn't be worried about everyone else's opinions, should you?

I want everyone to give their solid opinion before he is lynched for the sake of day 2 information, it gives me a reference point when I'm putting the pieces together on later days, assuming I am around in later days.

I'm not worried about their opinions in particular, I just want everyone to make a stance on the wagon so I can use their stance to garner information at a later date, I'm pretty sure I've already said this, in an earlier post concerning oxide.

As to what I have to say about Zach's problem with me not wanting to hammer - I didn't want to hammer. Nothing else to add.

Not much else to say at this point, I'm pretty much waiting on butterfly's forthcoming alignment.
In my opinion the scum are likely in {Butterfly, Nacho, SSBF, Antonio (Lurker mc Lurk) and Davidparker} but that list is at least partly dependent on Butterfly flipping scum.

[Concerned]

Meh, I'm really not convinced that a lack of surety about butterfly equates to being scummy, surety is something that the town never has and I still harbored doubts about butterfly right until he flipped

Nacho certainly comes out looking scummy, but I'm not convinced the way he acted in butterfly's defense is something an experienced player as scum would do. Yes, I realize this train of thought is WIFOM but I don't necessarily think it's invalid because of that.

I'm more inclined to suspect Oxide and Antonio, the former because he came to butterfly's defense in a subtle, slightly less aggressive way, which makes me think he wanted to defend butterfly but he didn't want to make it obvious and the latter because Butterfly repeatedly expressed suspicion of him.
Now if we take into consideration the fact that Butterfly was noob scum, I feel like repeatedly saying he suspected antonio was his noob-scum way of ensuring his buddies safety after he flipped (of course he must have realized he was a gonneer). Of course this tactic isn't going to work when you're dealing with experienced players but I feel like it is something Butterfly would do.

So for now I'm going to:

Vote : Antonio

[Concerned]

Oh and SSBF, I did express doubts about buttefly being scum, I did feel he could easily just be an idiot, however I decided on his vote because it made the most sense not just in terms of a - "I thought he was the most scummy player." way but also in a - "whether he was town or not, he needed to go." kind of way.

I've explained my thoughts and actions every step of the way, and if you find me scummy that's your error, but I would like you to tell me why you find my vote on butterfly more likely to be a bus than anyone else.

[Concerned]

Antonio's not being lynched today. He was the counter wagon to Butterfly.

Well me an Exilon both voted for him to put some pressure on after all the lurking, and the only other person to vote for him was Butterfly, and I've said why I believe butterfly voting for someone could be an indicator.

I'm not sure I would call it an opposing wagon with a maximum of three people on it at any given time, and two of those people only on it to put pressure on a lurker.

[Concerned]

Regarding bussing: Highly likely I'd say. Butters was never going to be much help to the scum team either. Does anyone else think that Concerned's last post looks over-defensive? Nobody accused him of bussing yet.

Concerned's L-1 vote for The Butterfly is scummy. It feels like that he's attempting to bus The Butterfly. Definedently will be on the lookout for him. However, I think we need to put forth more attention toward Nachomamma8. I'll explain my case on him:

Hmmm?

Ok, what evidence do you have to suggest that Butterfly was trying to misdirect by voting for his scumbuddy?

If there isn't a glaring link, there's no reason to presume it.

It's just the way buttefly went about the game, with absolutely no interest in scum hunting at all. I just have to wonder where he pulled his suspect out of, taking this into account.

I just have this gut feeling it's something buttefly would do.

I'm not saying I want to string Antonio up right this second, I just feel like I might have something and it warrants me pursuing it at the very least.

[Concerned]

Before I hit the sack, I need to also announce that I'm going to be

semi-VLA until the 2nd

from tomorrow - I'm going to stay with family and they do have an internet connection, but I tend to have very little time to myself when I stay with relatives so I may still get a time to post but I may not.

[Concerned]

Ok I'm back, before I do anything I'd like to

unvote

I admit I was stretching at the time with the antonio vote, I didn't think Nacho was scum and I felt like I needed to provide an alternative.

I'd firstly like to say I won't be on the nacho wagon, I honestly interpret how he acted with regards to butters, as town, when taken in the context of him being a fairly experienced player.

I also agree with a lot of things he's been saying and I think most of SSBF's points agaisnt him are a lot of rubbish (although it doesn't

necessarily

mean SSBF is scum).

So I interpret the case agaisnt nacho as being mostly based on his attitude towards butters, and since I don't agree with said behavior being scummy I don't agree with the case.

I also have strong town reads on Zach, Jason and Cuet.

Which leaves {Antonio, Exilon, Oxide, DavidParker and SSBF} and I feel like Butter's little comment about "Or maybe he's just a helpful townie" regarding exilon is a fairly reliable disclaimer pointing to Exilon being town.

So I'm confident that the remaining scum are within {Antonio, Oxide, DP and SSBF}.

[Concerned]

I feel like Butter's little comment about "Or maybe he's just a helpful townie" regarding exilon is a fairly reliable disclaimer pointing to Exilon being town.

That could be read either way so I really don't see how it's a reliable conclusion.

Yeah, I've given it some thought and you're right it really isn't.

I'm willing to wagon Oxide or DP (ver 2).

[Concerned]

Yeah DP is scum.

Vote : DavidParker

It's not just his recent actions which I find unnerving (although I do find them scummy), it's now he treated the nacho wagon:
First he says -

I am getting a very strong scum read from nacho, especially the way he deals with a few people voting on him, he seems to be overly worrying and overreacting to a bit of pressure.

Vote: Nacho

Then he says -

Unvote: nacho

don't like where this is going.

---
I'm kinda new to this site and havn't seen how scum do last ditch efforts to save themselves here, but nacho's seems genuine.

And lastly -

Vote: nacho

nevermind, ignore my doubts.

His reason for getting off the wagon was that he thought nacho was genuine but his reason for voting, was that he thought nacho's reaction to the pressure was scummy.

Clearly he just hopped on the wagon as opportunistic scum, and then tried to hop off when he thought being on the wagon would make him look scummy.

I also had a town read on foobert but I've learned long ago that my reads are extremely fallible.

That's L-1 people.

[Concerned]

Hmmm I originally did look at the butterfly reference to exilon as being a possible town indicator, but the more I think about it the less I'm convinced.

I'm going to go ahead and say I wouldn't be agaisnt an Exilon wagon today. DP is my current preference but there it is.

[Concerned]

I am probably going to prefer pressuring someone on the Parker wagon that's not Jason.

What makes you so sure the parker wagon is wrong all of a sudden?

[Concerned]

@Exilon, I'm not saying I think butterfly's comment is indicative of you being scum, I'm saying I no longer think it necessarily clears you as town.

In my mind I had cleared you for that quote and I've had second thoughts about that, especially since it turns out oxide was town and he was the one who said the quote could be taken either way. At the time I thought it might be scum trying to mislead me but clearly it was an unbiased townie opinion.

When you take the fact that I had cleared you in my mind away, I definitely think you could be scum. There are 8 of us left I'm almost certain Zach, Cuet and Jason are town I know I'm town and I'm starting to leaning town for SSBF that only leaves three players: You, DP and the antonio slot, so quite frankly I'm willing to hop a wagon on any of those players, from my view it's a 66% chance of hitting scum.

[Concerned]

Vote: Concerned

His current mindset seems to contrast with his cautious mindset on day 1, where he no longer seems concerned about lynches as he once was. This is a common scum mindset change from early to mid/endgame.

Cautious? I didn't want to

hammer

, I've never had any qualms about putting someone on L-1, because I like to get as much information as possible from each day.

Putting someone on L-1 hardly equates to a lynch, that said I also feel more confident about DP at this point than I did about Nacho or Butterfly, both of which I was never quite sure about.

FIRSTLY, what's with all the scummy town players dying during night phases? first david parker (v.1) and now ox1de????

@all: what explanation is there for the scummiest townie dying both night 1 and night 2?!?!?

I don't think it's a better idea to speculate on the setup, but surely we can do both at the same time. It was just such an absurd thing to happen 2 nights in a row...

Irrelevent: Maybe a busdriver (played rather well so far) has been the reason for these strange kills?

DavidParker is clearly obsessed with the night kill, I'm convinced he's scum just based on this. There is simply no reason for someone who wasn't involved in the kills to be so obsessed with them.

If I had to guess I'd say DP is scum, and we do have some sort of power role in play that is effecting the kills and that is causing him to freak out. It's either that or DP

is

the PR who is causing the shenanigans and this is his weak attempt at hiding this fact (I hate to bring this up but it's the only other option I would accept).

[Concerned]

We've been fortunate. That's pretty much the extent of it. There's no reason for those who aren't involved in the kills to want to discuss them, hence you are scum.

[Concerned]

EBWOP: Ninja'd by Zachs post.

[Concerned]

DP, I was ninja'd.

[Concerned]

DP you really need to give me a pro-town reason I can accept for why you are so obsessed with the night kills.

The reason why this is a big issue for me is because I am the vigilante - and both of the night kills have been my doing.
This may seem like quite an unbelievable claim considering we've had one death per night but it's still the truth.

Since I've never played vig before and this is my second game out of newbie games I decided to take the "pro-town" approach to killing targets rather than the "pro-self" so I've been killing off the most suspected person and not necessarily my gut reads in an attempt to aid the town.

I know vig is a pathetic claim to make considering our single night kill and the fact that it's a very easy thing for scum to claim but I believe it strengthens the case on DP greatly, he suggested a

BUSDRIVER

for gods sake he knows the kills they have submitted aren't going where they are supposed to! Also the way things are going DP is going to escape the noose, I know he's on L-1 but the town leaders want nothing to do with his lynch and the way things stand there aren't five players who are even willing to consider the lynch. (More like 3 and a half)

I can only guess our doctor has been spot on with his protects as to why we have had no scum night kills.

I know this has also given me a high risk of being killed or even roleblocked if the scum have one but at this point I don't think my ability is going to be of much more use.

If the town decides to lynch me at least I my death will prove what I'm saying and DP will get the attention he deserves tomorrow.

@Concerned: IGMEOY

You just said you weren't convinced of my case, smell blood in the water eh scum?

[Concerned]

I don't know what you mean by kill flavour but the flavour around my role was virtually minuscule. "You are the vigilante", "You used to enjoy life until..." etc etc.

I'm not a one shot vig, nor am I some sort of even night vigilante, I get a night kill every night. Period.

I still think DP is scum, nothing he has said has changed my mind.
I'd still like to here from millar and Exilon though, and I don't want to see DP hammered just yet.

[Concerned]

So Oxide points out my reference from Butterfly was a null tell, which Concerned says it was misleading him (onto what, I have no idea), in case an Ox-scum existed. This on its own is already pretty bad logic, and seems like a bad attempt at faking suspicion. Then he uses Oxide's death as an excuse to stop thinking I'm obv town. this does not make sense - for starters, Oxide pointed it was a null tell (from Concerned's perspective), so it shouldn't be misleading him in any way, therefore making both "events" INDEPENDENT of each other. Oxide's opinion doesn't really need to influence Concerned, yet by the way he writes this quote, it's clear one of the main reasons for Concerned's stance was Oxide's own position.

Oxide said the butters quote could be taken either way, at the time I was weary of anything he said because I thought he was scum and hence not to be trusted. Now that he's confirmed town I can look at what he said objectively without fear of bias and I found that he was actually right.

DP is the PR who is causing the shenanigans and this is his weak attempt at hiding this fact (I hate to bring this up but it's the only other option I would accept).

The bolded part is pure genius. Not only it looks like concerned gets a litle concerned over geting DP lynched, he seems to be reaching at straws. Dubbing DP's interest in the NK's as "obsessive" and dubbing it as "definite scum" seems pretty off to me, considering the fact that DP brought it up because they weren't really being discussed, and because the line immedietly after he says "If I had to guess".

Wait, I was wrong, no. Actually the blue bolded is absolute genius.

Now, we know for a fact that Concerned is the Vig. Let's assume that for the moment. Notice what he says. Why would a vig, who knows he's the one behind the killings, suggest DP as THE possible PR that is causing the "sheningans" he's trying to hide? Also, when he claimed Vig, he said that the reason why he wanted to know why DP was "obsessed" was because he, Concerned, was the one making those kills. Let's compare this.

I was trying to get DP to fakeclaim responsibility, simple as that. By saying "the only way I will believe you aren't scum is if you are the PR." I was inviting scum-DP to claim responsibility because I would have had him, I then could have claimed and even if the town didn't believe me we would have had scum within two lynches guaranteed.

He didn't end up claiming but it was worth a try.

Your whole argument is based on misunderstanding what I was trying to do.

Read it like if he's the SK. No mention to SK possibility, "this is the first time playing as Vig", "playing PRO-TOWN instead of pro-self", and his flavour curiously ends with

"You enjoyed life until...".

Bolded part finishes with "until people started to die". If you are town as you say, then check your own town PM before you make assumptions...


If there is anything you said which you feel I haven't addressed tell me, but honestly your argument is just you interpreting my actions in a way that fits your theory. You can make anything fit if you want it to and that's what you're doing here, forcing a fit where there isn't any.

Ironically I'm starting you think you might be town though, confused town but town nonetheless. I just don't see the scum motivation to push a lynch on someone when their death is just going to make you look more suspicious.

[Concerned]

yeah, DP's votes have been one hell of a crazy ride, but I don't really know a good reason for scum to do so except being afraid. His town reasons to do so seem a little stronger.

Good reason - He's willing to accept any townie lynch that the town will sanction.

[Concerned]

Also if we have experienced two cross kills, which I find hard to believe because of the people who were killed, but nonetheless if that's what's happened then my case on DP kinda fizzles out...
It would be nice to have another night to confirm that if possible.

[Concerned]

What were your reasons for the kills you made?

You're kidding right?

[Concerned]

Also I've thought about it and I'm gonna unvote.

unvote

It's not that I no longer think DP is scum it's more that I think he's conditionally scum. If there have been cross kills I'd say he's town but if not then he's probably scum.

Either way another night gives another opportunity to figure out exactly what's going on with regards to the kill flavour.

[Concerned]

Yeah I really just want to get on with night at this point and I can't see anyone else getting the noose today unless something drastic happens.
I will hammer once everyone on the current wagon agrees that it should be done (I don't want anyone who put their vote on to pressure millar to lose the information they may have wanted).

As for how scummy I think millar is - imo he's the scummiest player barring DP at the moment, and I'm waiting for more information on that front.
I especially find this to be true when you take into account he admitted to knowing he was fake-hammering and then he only voted for himself again when he wasn't on L-1.

[Concerned]

I got im .

[Concerned]

Thanks for the game everyone (mod included) was fun.

May have been a slightly OP'ed set-up for town, but that certainly wasn't helped by butterfly giving himself away so easily.

In the end I did an ISO on every single person before I decided my night kill and it was between exilon and SSBF (I was going to leave DP until I had seen the flavour of the kills) and I thought if exilon was town, scum would try and kill him in the hopes of another cross kill and even greater confusion.

I thought SSBF was a good option to avoid the cross-kill since I had earlier said that my read was "leaning town" (a read I changed after I had read through everything).

[Concerned]

It's a pity the scum didn't even use their NK though...

[Concerned]

Unless they tried to kill zach both nights lol.

[Concerned]

Pretty much the entirety of why I thought you might be scum - Zach said so.

Nuff said .

[Concerned]

Do not feed the troll .