Mini 988 - Small Town Mafia GAME OVER

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/confirm

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Hi folks,

This is my first game out of the newbie compound so I'm unfamiliar with the set-up. Even so...

Vote: Exilon

because of this:

Let's all do this as soon as possible so mafia won't have time to night talk.

I predict one of the last players to confirm is scum.

Clearly scum eagerly hunting after town points.

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Rules:

If you change your vote during the same Day you must "Unvote" first.

@Lobster: Can you clarify if you are going to hold this to the letter?

Exilon expressed his intent clearly but screwed up the mark-up. Zach seems to want to hold him to it though. Concerned also got caught out (unless it was deliberate).

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I'm sticking with Exilon right now. That was quite scummy.

Butterfly, meh. I don't see it. Plus Cueti and David have yet to post. Soemone is too eager...

I've gotta say that Zach is looking bad. Some good comments mixed in, but: bandwagoning, being pedantic, asking questions without adding anything, etc.

Fos: Zach

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I'm sticking with Exilon right now.

That was quite scummy.

To clarify, you're voting for me, therefore I'm your supposed top suspect.

"That"=? In your ISO I can only find my initial statement and my missed tags. Are you saying that alone is scummier than everything else you've seen in the thread?

Interesting.

Yep. It was your first statement.

Butterfly, meh. I don't see it. Plus Cueti and David have yet to post. Soemone is too eager...

I've gotta say that Zach is looking bad. Some good comments mixed in, but: bandwagoning, being pedantic, asking questions without adding anything, etc.

What is it that you don't agree with Butterfly's case?
Who's that someone you are talking about?
Why is Cueti and David not posting relevant to an ongoing wagon and the information we get from it?
By the way, why is bandwagoning a reason for suspicion on Zach?
Am I scummy for asking these questions without adding anything?

I meant that I

don't

think Butterfly is scum.
Zach and Concerned seem eager for an early lynch.
I'm just concened that we might lynch someone whilst the lurkers go unquestioned. Scum want a quick lynch...
Asking relavent questions is sound. Irrelevant questions less so.

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Achmm.

I guess I'm not used to the number of posts. Page 5 and I'm calling lurkers, but so...

Seems like wagons are fine for scumhunting. Just a bit worried when Ex got to L-2 or L-1, whatever.

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Don't think we can all measure up to you.

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Don't think we can all measure up to you.

Look, it's just the way I play.

I was just trying to make a joke about the size of your *cough* post.

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Where / When do Zach and Concerned show eagerness for a quicklynch?

They didn't' ok.

It's just that Zach and Concerned both jumped on your wagon real quick.

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They didn't, ok?

//punctuation

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The facts are unchanged. My opinion may vary.

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@Super and Jason: I'm not sure if you just don't get it or you're being obtuse (scummy).

Zach and Conc leapt on the bandwagon. That wagon nearly killed Ex. I accused them of looking for a quicklynch.

Subsiquent posts changed my mind.

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Ox1de, why are you still voting for me?

Because of the thing you did.

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Exilon's logic is sound. Mafia can chat until eveyone confirms. BUT this is self-evident, it's part of the game. Why reinforce it? Why say that the last player to confirm is scum? Why not actually follow through with a vote or something?

Scum will seek to muddy the waters. A townie wouldn't.

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Ok Exilon, I'll accept it was a joke.

Unvote.

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Ox1de, why didn't you consider it was a joke or ask for clarification?
Since you unvoted me, are you planning to vote on someone else?

I preferred the more agressive approach. I need to re-read the whole thread to be honest. Nobody has been very scummy, so I guess I'll focus on those who haven't contibuted so much.

For some reason I have Zach down as town because someone said his play is consistent with his meta. I have to lok into that too.

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Nacho, why do you think that Butterfly looks scummy?

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Yea, I agree. Lynch now please.

Maybe I missed something, but you are voting for me, yes?

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Nacho, why do you think that Butterfly looks scummy?

Don't mean to answer on anyone's behalf, but I have to ask, have you been reading the game thoroughly? We need to stick to productive discussion and not rehash what has been going on over and over and over.

Yes I have and I'm shocked at the conviction some people have that Butterfly must be lynched. I really want to see Nacho's analysis.

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Can someone explain the logic behind scumclaim = scummy. After all Nacho did it too.

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Can

someone

Jason and/or Smash

explain the logic behind scumclaim = scummy. After all Nacho did it too.

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claim now imo

You do know that your vote on Butterfly doesn't count because you didn't unvote? I make it that he's on L-3.

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@0x: Where did I say Butterfly was scummy, again?

You haven't said either way and your response is awfully defensive. Basically you've completely side-stepped the question by posing your own rhetorical one. What I want to know is: what is your opinion of Butterfly and, more importantly,

why

do you think that?

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My position on Butterfly: Neutral.

None of the arguments for his scumminess are compelling. It looks like a policy lynch to me.

Zach has come up with some good reasons why we should lynch him anyway, but they don't convince me. In fact he's annoying me because he goes too far. You shouldn't provide ammunition for scum, and

always

leave enough rope so they can hang themselves.

DavidParker is the only one on the Butterfly wagon who hasn't really given a reason why. In fact he's hardly contributed anything much. Classic bandwagonning and lurking, I'd say.

Vote: David Parker.

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I am scum.

Now, Smash and Jason, explain

why

that makes me mafia. I'd appreciate the rest of you keeping your opinions to yourselves until they have both responded. Thanks.

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You realize how bloody anti-town that makes you right now?

Yet you cannot, or will not, explain why. And it's three scum claims, by the way.

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My opinion on Butters: The scumclaim stuff is nonsense. As for the rest it is neutral for me. It just looks like a policy (or even personality) lynch, which I object to on principle. Having said that, I am resigned to his lynch and it wouldn't be

that

bad.

@ Super: If you are so strongly against the lynch, why not unvote?

By the way, Jason is town.

Yeah, I'm leaning that way too.

I'm a little wary of your relationship though. You've both declared the other as town and then had a cosy little chat. Have either of you got anything to say about that?

(ninja'd by Ex)

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im afraid to vote becouse it might put more suspision onto me

More suspicion? Come on, you're nearly dead. If you have any ideas post them.

(by the way, you should google spell checkers if you can't be bothered to learn how to spell.)

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My opinion on Butters: The scumclaim stuff is nonsense.

As for the rest it is neutral for me

. It just looks like a policy (or even personality) lynch, which I object to on principle.

Having said that, I am resigned to his lynch and it wouldn't be

that

bad.

[/b]Read: I don't agree with lynching my partner. But am resigned to it anyway

As before, you are very selective with your judgements. It's fine for Nacho, but anyone else claiming scum must be mafia. Likewise, there are a couple of other people who aren't convinced that Butters is scum, but when I say it...

I'll put it down to scum hunting, but you ought to try another target.

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Oh and if Butters does flip town, who would you suspect?

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If Butter turns town, I'll be looking at Jason, Ox1de and Nacho.

But not Concerned eh, because he took the same stance as you? And did Dave and Cueti slip under you radar?

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FFS Butters is 14. Look mate, play a few newbie games. Most of us are adults, so use proper English and punctuation (near enough).

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Oh sod off. I'm just trying to help him for his next game.

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But his immaturity just spills out. I can't tell if he's scum or not. Regardless, he's going to die. I was just trying to help.

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I just don't get your incentive here oxide, at best butterfly's chances of being town are the same as any other player, and he's clearly not going to be a productive member of the town.

Why are you against the lynch?

You are right, but I'd rather lynch someone I think is scum. I've seen a couple of policy miss-lynches and it just seems like a wasted opportunity to hit scum. Mind you I don't have a read either way on Butters so I'm not strongly against his lynch. Whichever way he flips, we'll know more. If it was close to deadline, I'd probably even hammer him myself rather than risk a no lynch. But we're a chatty crowd and the game's only a week old.

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@0x: If you could lynch anyone today who would it be?

Well I'm voting for Dave at the moment for his lurking and bandwagon jumping. He's upped his posts since, but nothing to make me change my mind.

Nacho has raised my hackles, but nothing I can really back up. And I want to hear more from Antonio and Cueti.

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Lobster's judgement seems a bit harsh, or is that just me?

Anyway, we have to make a decision. I've not had much joy identifying scum, but there are several people that I think are town. Out of the potential targets today,

I'm only interested in lynching David, Butters, or Nacho.

Townies:

• Zach - Knows what he's talking about. Fairly well-balanced. Open to reason.
• Jason - Too quick to jump to conclusions. Sound logic. Zach's apprentice (is that good or bad?)
• Exilion - Rattled me at first. Consistent scum hunting. Minor doubts about his spread of votes.
• Concerned - Realist. Def not scummy for holding off the hammer. Bit quiet

Maybe townie, but not sure of:

• Smash - Fairly good reasoning. Heavily against Butter's lynch but didn't unvote. Repeatedly pointed out Consistent's potential scumminess.

Possible scum:

• David - Probably guilty of lurking and wagonning.

The rest I don't have enough to go on. (Nacho is a gut feel).

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Originally giving him a n00bie town read, he quickly changed that to a scum read. This is scummy and I don't like it.

SSBF, could you please show some evidence of this?

..some stuff...

Super, you are talking out of your arse. Concerned never said he had a scum read. It would've been obvious in your post, but you 'forgot' to mention the original quote.

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@Mod: Why did I get prodded when my last post was less than 48 hours ago? Shouldn't you have prodded Antonio instead?

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Super, you are talking out of your arse. Concerned never said he had a scum read. It would've been obvious in your post, but you 'forgot' to mention the original quote.

Not really. The fact that Concerned said he was perfectly happy to lynch The Butterfly means that he has in some way or form a scum read on him.

Yes really. You were asked to provide evidence that he'd gone from a town to a scum read. You didn't do that. You inferred that he had a scum read and projected that opinion onto him.

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Final question: @Cuet: What is your case against ox1de?

Why do you care about my case against ox1de, but ignore my unstated cases against Nacho and Concerned, whom I also implicated in a possible scum team earlier in the game? You are basically strengthening my argument that you and ox1de are scum together by ignoring my cases against Nacho and Concerned. Thanks!

David has been trying to buddy-up with me ever since I voted him.

But returning to you. Why haven't you backed up those other scum calls? Also, your reason for not sharing the Butters town scenario is pretty weak - you still might be night killed. Withholding information is OK in the short term, but overall it is anti-town if not downright scummy.

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Well I'm very pleased with the kills. We lynched scum (well you guys did) and they took out my prime suspect.

Regarding bussing: Highly likely I'd say. Butters was never going to be much help to the scum team either. Does anyone else think that Concerned's last post looks over-defensive? Nobody accused him of bussing yet.

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Regarding bussing: Highly likely I'd say. Butters was never going to be much help to the scum team either. Does anyone else think that Concerned's last post looks over-defensive? Nobody accused him of bussing yet.

Concerned's L-1 vote for The Butterfly is scummy. It feels like that he's attempting to bus The Butterfly. Definedently will be on the lookout for him. However, I think we need to put forth more attention toward Nachomamma8. I'll explain my case on him:

Hmmm?

Sorry, I missed that.

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Ok, I'm going to join the Nacho wagon. There's not much in the way of quotes to support it, but there you go. He's been quite critical of others (defensive, even) whilst generally withholding his own opinion. His vote on Zach was insubstantial and I get the impression that his stance on Concerned was 'going with the flow'. Regarding Butters, he was really non-committal, only coming out with a null-tell after repeated questions (most of which he tried to deflect by implying the questioner was suspect).

Vote: Nachomamma8.

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Start again jason. He's talking about Butters title. You know, the one that depends on how many posts you've made.

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Yes, I'd like to see the quotes too.

Also, why did you quote jason's massive (and misguided) post instead of quoting me:

Regarding Butters, he was really non-committal, only coming out with a null-tell after repeated questions.

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Because Nacho was talking about Butters' title. You know, the bit above your avatar. As far as I remember, it starts off as townie, then goes to goon, then scum depending on how many posts you make. So Nacho wasn't making any comment on Butters' role in this game just talking about the number of posts he's made. So the goon flip is wrong.

Nothing wrong with the rest though.

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Well that was a hell of a post. Must have taken you ages to put that together.

First up your argument is flawed in several places because it depends on Butters being my scumbuddy. That's like saying "if 0x is scum blah blah then 0x is scum".

Second, Butters wasn't eager to lynch, but Zach and Concerned were. Just look at their voting patterns. It's got nothing to do with which wagon you're on.

Thirdly: Backpeddling. What a ridiculous thing to accuse me of. It's called changing your mind. As more information becomes available you can make better judgements. I may not have used my vote much but I'm certainly not afraid to challenge people to help establish their alignment.

Why bring up the old scum-claim thing? I thought we'd settled that.

Why would scum reveal so many town reads? I wasn't in danger of being lynched. I just find it easier to identify town than mafia. And it's not like I just said x is town. I had some pretty long-running arguments with them.

Oh and regarding your scum case on Nacho and Concerned: how are we supposed to follow that up now? Care to summarise?

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Well that was a hell of a post. Must have taken you ages to put that together.

- Buddying. (OR AS SOME WOULD CALL IT ASS KISSING WHAT A FOUL WORD) (not a very strong point, though.)

If it's not a strong point, why shout about it? Looks like you are implying things whilst disowning them.

First up your argument is flawed in several places because it depends on Butters being my scumbuddy. That's like saying "if 0x is scum blah blah then 0x is scum".

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

When you make any argument, there are some things you take as read. The problem comes when you make assumptions that are false to begin with. The worst thing is when you make an assumption and then use the argument to prove the initial assumption was true. See quotes below:

Ox thinks Zach is looking bad (cuz he is voting his

scum buddy

)

Your

scum buddy

, Butters, put Ex at L-2! Why didn’t you consider him to be “eager to lynch?!”

Backpedaling + Ignoring his

scum buddy

who almost got Ex killed

How do Zach and Concerned differ from Butterfly and what voting patterns are you referring to?

That would be a right pain to go through. If you didn't see it, then forget it.

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I think there's definitely at least one scum in Nacho, 0x, and Exilon... possibly more.

I see that, but why isn't Concerned in the list. I assume that's because you think he's town.

Why are you pleased with the death of your prime suspect?

Because I won't waste anything by following a bad lead.

What part don't you understand?

It's just that you referred to post numbers, which are no more. Thanks for the clarification.

@0xide: To be clear, you think that bussing on the Butterfly wagon was highly likely, so you're going to vote me with everyone else's reasoning?

Yes. This is my first time out of the newbie games, so the lack of known set-up unnerves me. I guess that there were at least 3 mafia. One dead, one on the wagon, and one wavering.

DavidParker back in a different role. Bound to be confusing. Let's hope you take part more.

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WHAT DO YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF PROBLEM WITH CAPS LOCK CAUSE I FIND IT COOL.

Grow up. All caps is shouting.

you're saying his argument is flawed because he's assuming you're scum, which

"is obviously"

not true. Is that correct or near what you mean?.

You miss the point. If you build a house of cards but the bottom one is wrong, then the whole thing comes tumbling down.

That would be a right pain to go through. If you didn't see it, then forget it.

Ah, ok. Thanks for the effort. Or lack thereof.

Tell you what, you go back through all those pages and make your own mind up.

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I was attacking the argument, not the assumption. Consider a chainsaw defence or a policy lynch, it's not important what the initial reason is, it's the

style

of the argument.

Zach and Concerned seem eager for an early lynch.

You seem so eager for me to justify this because Cueti brought it up. Did you know that I said this on the 10th June? Here. That was on page 5.

Why do you just accept Cueti's claims?

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Chainsaw defenese is stronger then bussing because of this:
Bussing is simply killing your partner off to gain town creds and to avoid suspicion. Chainsaw defense requires more strategic scum planning and wanting to save your scum partner for another day. Your chainsaw defense on The Butterfly was definently scummy and of course it's noted. Thus it is a stronger connection then bussing.

I don't agree with this at all. Both are opportunistic, and bussing is the only one that might be planned for.

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Nacho still is my number one suspect... however if he is not scum... Ox/Ex are the pairing. I would put anything on it

What, even a vote?

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Does that reluctance to hammer look familiar?

Why has it taken so long for you to bring that up?

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I think that evidence someone is scum is the same thing as showing 'proof' under the assumption that a person is scum.
In any case, to have an evidence, you have to assume that a certain player is scum, for example.

They are presented in different ways, but they're both effective, in my opinion.

Ever heard of confirmation bias?

Yes, he did post in Mini 992 and Newbie 966 (You're hosting that game, how could you not know?).

If only you realized what I was trying to say here...

I don't know what you were trying to say either. Care to explain like a good little townie?

@Cuet:
It's mostly a matter of PoE.

Zach is town for reasons said earlier.
SSBF is town because A) he's seems to believe in the case he's posting, plus the reasons why Zach is town.
Jason is town because Butterfly attacked him.
You are town because I just got that feeling.
David I is town because the mod told us so.

I wouldn't be surprised if foobert was bussing because he really didn't post the entire day, and DavisParker hasn't been posting since he's replaced in, which is suspicious (especially considering he didn't have to read the game again or anything).

And why is Exilon town?

I feel like Butter's little comment about "Or maybe he's just a helpful townie" regarding exilon is a fairly reliable disclaimer pointing to Exilon being town.

That could be read either way so I really don't see how it's a reliable conclusion.

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Chainsaw defenese is stronger then bussing because of this:
Bussing is simply killing your partner off to gain town creds and to avoid suspicion. Chainsaw defense requires more strategic scum planning and wanting to save your scum partner for another day. Your chainsaw defense on The Butterfly was definently scummy and of course it's noted. Thus it is a stronger connection then bussing.

I don't agree with this at all. Both are opportunistic, and bussing is the only one that might be planned for.

How was Nachomamma8's defense of The Butterfly opportunistic? Most of his major posts Day 1 has been defending The Butterfly. There has to be some form of strategic intentions for defending The Butterfly and I honestly doubt it was townie-like. Also, chainsaw defenses are harder to pull off then bussing without people noticing.

I was talking about your original post (included for clarity) about chainsaw versus bus. The point I was making was that no one in their right mind would plan a chainsaw defence (in advance). On the other hand, planning to bus is quite understandable.

Was Nacho defending Butters? No he wasn't. He held a null-tell stance and was of the opinion that the Butters wagon was a policy lynch. There were enough of us to show that the anti-policy lynch wasn't a scumtell.

One of the things that riles me about Nacho is the fact that he completely avoided a Butters stance. Then he got incredibly defensive when asked about it. You know, the whole thing about 'putting words into my mouth'.

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Yeah, thanks lobster for doing the mod thing. And thanks to everyone else for playing (except Millar, of course).

Well done Concerned.

Smash, I think you did pretty well against the odds.

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DavidParker wins twice!

Honestly, who wants to join a game on page eleventy-nine? Millar was better than nothing. Just.