Mini 989 - Disgaea Mafia Episode 2 (Game Over!)

[TheButtonmen]

@DavidParker:

Do you have any completed games and/or are you an alt?

[DavidParker]

No, but i'm in a few games atm.

Have played mafia games on other sites.

[UncertainKitten]

UK's brain at work, I picture clockwork happening once a scummy action occured.

Close, more scummy intent appearing. I generally have been hanging back early D1 as of late. I'll post a bunch but it's mostly just poking around til some scum bees start trying to sting me

Regarding pressure votes, I'd say stating a pressure vote is a pressure vote has it's uses if you know what you are looking for knowing they are responding to what is obviously a pressure vote.

[Iecerint]

@ KTB, he quoted something that Kise said and then voted Kise. It doesn't take someone with ++genius to infer that the content in said quote was the basis of the vote. Your implicit argument that it does doesn't make much sense to me.

I am sympathetic to the Kise wagon, but it seems to be doing just fine without me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@IllusionaryMango: Don't get me started on walls of text and quote stripes. It will not end well.

But, the short of it is, the harder you make the game to read, the more anti town you're being. Also, walls of text tend to not be as content rich as their proponents would like to think.

I’ll say what I say to everyone who complains about walls of text and quote stripes – “Reading is not a hardship”. You find reading this style of post difficult. I find posts with responses without referencing the original material unclear and not inherently informative. We are never going to have a meeting of the minds on this issue.

The only way it “will not end” well is if you decide to play based solely on playstyle and not on actual game substance. Lastly you get some small amount of credit for IllusionaryMango … it’s slightly more inventive than the usual attempts at witty butchering of my account name I see.

Certainly! Right after I get what I want answered from foobert!

Still wanting to hear your thoughts on why KTB is acting in a self-contradictory manner.

If it's any consolation I think Nacho dodged the discussion that was forming at the time.

Why make a perfectly valid observation and not follow-up with Nacho regarding the issue? That’s a classic “Look I’m scum-hunting” when you are not play.

@Nacho – Why did you swoop in, slam down what is on the surface a random vote and not comment on the brewing Kise wagon or the discussion regarding whether TBM’s vote was ‘for real’ and thus not random?

I don't mind you asking but I do find it interesting that you felt the need to intercede on TB's behalf.

Why is it interesting, in your opinion?

Magna: Similar question to you as to TB. Do you think Kise is scummy for his actions thus far? Granted, you said nothing about a speed lynch, but I see the Kise wagon building pretty quickly so I thought I'd ask if you are comfortable with his lynch.

I think Kise has made by far the scummiest play so far (given it is only 4 pages). Self-contradictory behavior is a huge scum-tell in my eyes. The manner in which he follows 33 up with 37 clearly falls into self-contradiction in my eyes. Until he actually explains a motivation for it I’m happy to have the pressure fall squarely on his shoulders. I can’t say I’ve seen a vote-count recently but I’m doubting Kise is above L-2. All things said I’m as comfortable as I can be on Page 4 as Kise has shown the scummiest behavior. I’d prefer a more full Day myself, but until I get some feedback from Kise other than laughing at people’s votes I’m not inclinded to move my vote.

Interesting thing to note is Magna voting for both TB & myself, while offering no opinion on what made him change his trust of TB.

I’ll point out that voting for you, of course, has nothing to do with trusting TB and everything to do with your self-contradictory, and thus scummy, behavior. What’s interesting about it? Do you find it scummy? If so please actually articulate why. Also, care to explain your behavior in 37 which is clearly at odds with your statement at 33?

I am sympathetic to the Kise wagon, but it seems to be doing just fine without me.

So you favor the wagon but don’t feel the need to back it. Classic establishing statement allowing you to jump on or attack those on it depending on how the wind blows.

FOS – Ice

[UncertainKitten]

@Mango: Oh, I read. And I find out that 90% of walls of text are wasted chaff. Hell, I know, I used to be a WoTer. If you can't say it in less than two paragraphs, it's not worth saying. You also probably are putting things in that are unnecessary to get your point across.

As for quote stripes, those are: artificial post extenders, easy to misrepresent, and very fucking hard to read on mafsepia. And before you say use subsilver that's a really blinding background. We won't even talk about maftyger.

So, yes, it is anti town to obfuscate what you actually mean with words words words.

@Mango: Why is self contradictory behavior a scumtell?

[TheButtonmen]

@Iec:

If you don't want to hop on this wagon; why not start your own?

[Iecerint]

@ TBM, I did; I think KTB is scummy for the same reason as Kise. But the two players' behavior is such that their scumminess isn't really mutually exclusive, anyway, so ye know.

@ Magna, nah -- I like the Kise wagon (almost) as much as anyone can like a wagon on page 4 (see above), but I don't think there's anything to be gained from me joining a wagon that already has 4 people or whatever on page 4 without hearing more from Kise. His implicit 2SCUM4SCUM defense wasn't doing much for me til iso 6, though.

[DavidParker]

As said i'm new to this site (somewhat), "iso 6" = ?

[Iecerint]

"Iso" means "isolation." "Kise's iso 6" means "Kise's 6th post."

You can use the tool at the bottom of the board ("Display posts from previous") to look at a specific player in isolation.

[DTMaster]

@David
You do realize the whole point of pressuring people is to determine and get a town vibe or scum vibe from people. When you leave with neutral reads aplenty, you're not doing your job.

Your 72 though, reminds me a lot like in newbie games. Geanerally I'd attack you for your laziness in maintaining your neutral read on TBM. For someone in your shoes, your "biggest impression" is a neutral read is a scummy remark.

It means that you've a gotten enough of a read off him, but you're not willing to commit to a read. And if you cannot commit to a defined read then you're not scum hunting. Like TBM: you're following the crowd.

What bugs me is when I use human empathy and experience in newbie games, newbies tend to be less aggressive. IGMYOY for now.

Plug: HoN Vs Dota is a unique, unconventional theme game I'm running with MrSuave.

@Ice
So what's your read on Kise? Since you're sympathetic to it does it mean you agree with TBM's original assessment? Do you disagree? Being sympathetic just means, you relate to it, but you're not contributing to a read here.

EDIT: Aw MoI beat me here and you answered the question. Ignore this!

[Nachomamma8]

@Magna: I didn't view the two random votes to be a wagon, and the conversation about TBM's vote began after I voted.

@DTM: I picture UK's brain to be more like dynamite, the timer set off when the first scum posts. Then... explosion of anger and scum-catching and town-chastizing.

Unvote, Vote: Iecrint

I don't really like the whole "I approve of this wagon but I'm not going to join it" attitude you have.

Also, what is gained from you keeping your vote where it is right now?

[Iecerint]

1. There are two (at least) suspicious players: Kise and KTB.
2. Kise has a wagon sufficient to motivate him to participate/scumhunt/explain himself.
3. KTB doesn't.
4. So a vote for KTB is more useful than a vote for Kise, given that both players are comparably scummy.

[TheButtonmen]

2. Kise has a wagon sufficient to motivate him to participate/scumhunt/explain himself.

Hnnn?

[UncertainKitten]

@Nacho: Usually after two to three days of bad reads, with the middle of day two having me produce a completely accurate scum list and then dismiss it because it's "ridiculous". I wish that the explosion phase caught more scum but it's usually more blind leading the blind pissiness. Trying to be a little better about that, mostly.

Iec is interesting me for the reasons Nacho stated. Waiting to see where this goes.

[Kthxbye]

1. There are two (at least) suspicious players: Kise and KTB.
2. Kise has a wagon sufficient to motivate him to participate/scumhunt/explain himself.
3. KTB doesn't.
4. So a vote for KTB is more useful than a vote for Kise, given that both players are comparably scummy.

I'm sorry, could you quote the posts that I have made to make me "suspicious" please? I'm confused. You say I'm suspicious for the same reasons as Kise, but from what I can tell, Kise's suspicion stems from him not liking the jokes and RVS yet not doing anything to help (ie. scumhunt). Where exactly do you see that coming from me. Basically, what's your case again?

[Iecerint]

@ TBM: I don't understand your implicit incredulity.

@ KTB: People have already asked that, and I've already addressed it. Namely:

I perceived the same thing on KTB's part. He recognizes enough about your vote to call it real, but not enough to recognize why it's real. Not to mention that the rationale for your vote, given that it's real, is pretty self-evident.

It's the same as Kise's because Kise is scummy for whining about the game not going on, which doesn't jive with behavior that perpetuates something other than the game going on.

[Kthxbye]

I've addressed the recognition of his vote being real as well.

I asked because the post where he votes is just a vote. I asked if it was real because there was no explanation behind it nor anything else. I'm not sure what you don't get about that. I would have asked the same about your p40 except you explained it in your p45 before I got a chance to post again. Thus, I don't see the similarities you are suggesting are there.

[DavidParker]

@TBM: Earlier you mentioned you would speed lynch Kise. Were you serious? Would you lynch him now if you could?

[Iecerint]

His post was not just a vote. It contained an explanation in the form of a quotation. Is not the first time I have indicated as much.

The parallel is that both are cases where there's a disconnect between what people say about things and what their actions imply about them ("I want the game to start + I'm not taking action to make the game start" and "Is that vote real I cannot tell, even though the fact that I would frame a question like this around it makes it clear that I'm not legitimately clueless").

[Kthxbye]

We'll have to agree to disagree Iece. You can keep it up while I go off and hunt for actual scum. So far, I don't see anything that screams scum. A few things that bother me are the want of a speed lynch of Kise by TBM and jorti's defense/speaking for TB.

Kise: Are you going to come back and defend yourself or are you hoping somebody else takes the spotlight off you before you have to do that?

[Jarti]

Alright!

Just got back from 12hr shift at work, johns, etc...

Disappointed foobert never answered my question considering I was waiting last night and saw him log on/off a few times. Can't be helped I guess, don't feel like stalling things out.

On Kise: ISO 4 & 5 for him are why I don't feel like he's a good wagon. He seems to be egging TBM on to push things out of RVS indirectly, which I'm fine with, doesn't come off as scummy to me.

On kthx: ISO 1 has a half-cluelessness that seems faked. (Similar to foobert ISO 1; but ISO 2 for him feels legit). In addition kthx ISO 2 comes off as buddying/RVS extension to me despite the fact he seems to have recognized that discussion has somewhat begun.

Meanwhile, I "interceded on TB's behalf" because I wanted to get something from foobert. I was hoping to get to compare his disconnect with understanding TB's thoughts vs kthx's & then see if he agreed with them. He never answered so I didn't get it, but oh well not wasting the time.

Regardless I'm offering chilled drinks and cable TV for everyone who joins the kthx wagon. Seats are padded too. Hooray bribes, make the scum go dead!

Also DTM ISO 3, last part rubs me the wrong way. "Ohh, I'm scummy. But I'll say it preemptively in case anyone calls me out on it!" Not a fan.

[Jarti]

If it's any consolation I think Nacho dodged the discussion that was forming at the time.

Why make a perfectly valid observation and not follow-up with Nacho regarding the issue? That’s a classic “Look I’m scum-hunting” when you are not play.

Calling someone out by bringing it to the field is fine. I was perfectly content with my vote at that time if that's what you're referring to.

[TheButtonmen]

2. Kise has a wagon sufficient to motivate him to participate/scumhunt/explain himself.

Hnnn?

@ TBM: I don't understand your implicit incredulity.

If he's doing any of the three I've apparently missed it.

[Iecerint]

^ His iso 6 is probably a step in the right direction. Have already indicated as much.