Mini 980 - Trader Mafia (Game Over)

[Andrius]

So. What do you think of the farside wagon? You agree with it to an extent. Which is pretty much totally meaningless. What good points have been made against farside? We don't know. How likely is farside to be scum? We don't know. Are you likely to vote farside over other players? We don't know. This reads very much like scum who wants to be able to make their mind up when it becomes clearer whether this wagon is leading to a lynch.

I think it was a clever idea done by Jack; whether motivated as scum or town remains to be seen. He knew that VV would hop, because VV supports every lynch other than his own, ATM. SaintKerrigan's vote was highly scummy because he followed Jack saying "I'll dig this for now". He also followed Jack onto my lynch.
I was also convinced (idk how) that SPS was on the farside wagon as well. This is not the case, but I found SPS fairly scummy as well.

So in conclusion, I saw the farside wagon as scummy because of SK, and VV's willingness to lynch anyone but himself. (Since SPS did not vote farside after all.)

I'm not in favor of a farside lynch. Sometimes I say stupid things to see what people will do afterwards/ see how they will react. I said I agreed with the wagon so I could see if the people

who were already voting farside

would jump onto me. (Which they did.) What did I learn? This wagon-hopping only solidified VV's status as 'I'll Lynch Anyone But Me' and SK's status as #1 follower of Jack.

I think you're very wrong about the grammar thing. If I say a sentence meaning "I'm scum", but I claim it has some other harmless interpretation, it's clearly important to work out whether that harmless interpretation is likely. Sounds like something you believe though.

Well, most people would tend to avoid saying scentences meaning "I'm scum".
Wait, what's something I believe?

I'm mostly trying to make the most of my vote here, do you prefer that I withhold my vote and not give you any information?

You aren't technically allowed to withhold your vote, as it must always be on someone. You can however, vote SK and appease me for a brownie point. (Not redeemable for townie points. Reedemable for brownies.)

and is not the kamikazee bomb of protown play I once knew him to be!

I still think that was a genious move.

I don't get it. How did making a crappy post help you find scum, specifically?

It allows to me to watch suspicious players like VV, Jack, SK and see what they do. Naturally, VV votes me. Jack votes me. SK follows Jack. Why? We will find out.

Oh Joy, I'm at L-1 again.

Claim Thor. For old times' sake.

Andrius on VV at the time when VV was acting his scummiest. Ever do that meta read Andrius? Also can you explain the comment in that first quote? (the "I'd have to meta him to see if he's like this when he's scum" comment).

Yeah I did. I read him in Newbie 902, when he played as scum. He replaced in on D2 though, so its not a complete meta. And I haven't read his latest semi-win as scum in Percy's Rainbow Mafia.
Explaining comment: I've only ever played with him when he was town. (Greek Mythos.) He was only around for D1. So, I didn't want to base his playing habits off one game in one game-day. So I decided that I'd meta him if the time ever came. I'll look into the Rainbow Mafia a bit. Though I should probably read him playing as town in another game as well.

[VasudeVa]

Hey Andy. Read my case on Fish. Tell me what you think.

Also, regarding asking for metas: Back then, I thought they worked. But now I don't. Anything wrong with that?

--
In an unrelated note:

I won Greek Mythos. I believe in Epic.

Man, you're funny. XD.

[SaintKerrigan]

SaintKerrigan's vote was highly scummy because he followed Jack saying "I'll dig this for now".

AKA "Zomg SK didn't provide a 'good' reason for his vote, he must be scummiez." I do believe I explained later that the vote was to try and get information.

He also followed Jack onto my lynch.

Conveniently leaving out the part where you were already a high suspect on my list and I was in fact voting you in lieu of VV earlier. Personally, I think both of you need to find a noose, and it doesn't really matter which of you two finds it first.

Sometimes I say stupid things to see what people will do afterwards/ see how they will react. I said I agreed with the wagon so I could see if the people who were already voting farside would jump onto me.

And you expected people to

not

vote you for this? Say something stupid was "intentional" doesn't make it any less stupid, or less vote-worthy. Put another way: you're reaping what you've sown.

You can however, vote SK and appease me for a brownie point. (Not redeemable for townie points. Reedemable for brownies.)

And yet you don't extend me the same offer. Favoritism for a scumbuddy, eh?

It allows to me to watch suspicious players like VV, Jack, SK and see what they do. Naturally, VV votes me. Jack votes me. SK follows Jack. Why? We will find out.

I'm sorry, did you say you

learned

something from that?

Also, meta-cases are so lame. Lrn2scumhunt, plz.

[Nobody Special]

ITT means what?

In This Thread.


***


I am convinced that Andrius is scum.

My vote stays, until scummier lusciousness comes into view.

[Zang]

Sorry for not posting much.

 You know who is lurking hardcore this game? 

##vote:Andrius

Is every wagon led by you? And why do you only vote for people because they are lurking?

1 Mugger x 1 - This one-shot ability may be used at night against another player. This will steal all cash and abilities from that player, leaving that player with nothing. That player will retain any debt they had before. You may NOT mug yourself and if you are mafia you may not mug your teammate. 
MB: 50 CB: 0 Deadline: Not Yet Open - Opens 6/15

2 Banker - This gives the ability to set the interest rate on debt. You may set it at 2%, 5%, 10%, or 15% . You must submit this before the night, and it will be in effect the night after you have submitted. So if you submit 5% on Day 2, it will become the interest rate for night 3. Players will be informed of the upcoming interest rate. Finally, this ability gives the Banker a 20% discount on all abilities being sold because of bankruptcy. For example, if Ability X is put on the market because of bankruptcy, and the Banker ends up purchasing that ability for $100, he will only have to pay $80.
MB: 10 CB: 0 Deadline: Not Yet Open - Opens 6/15
4 Promotion - You receive a $75 wage increase (in addition to your current wage), but in order to receive this increase each night you must choose one player to promote under you. This player will receive a permanent $25 wage increase (in addition to their previous wage). You may only promote each person once.
MB: 75 CB: 0 Deadline: Not Yet Open - Opens 6/15

With these roles somebody could achieve the money win.

I am so sad that we are lynching Andrius today. . I wanted to see him do that thing he did in Greek Mythology(ie. Prance around the thread being confirmed scum. Also call out to your scumbuddies.). 

Still, this feels staggeringly similar to his earlier D1 play at Greek Mythology(when I was still alive). (btw, Do other Greek Mythology alumni agree?) 

##Vote: Andrius

There was only 2 votes on him when you voted, why did you think he would be lynched? Also why did you vote for him?

He's scummier, see that totally fake bit I quoted. Totally fake scumhunting = mafia every time.

Calling somebody a lurker and then telling people to vote for him isn't scumhunting either.

 VV is getting on any wagon that isn't his

So has Jack and SK.

While wagon hopping is in fact scummy, the fact that there is no other wagon(other than myself) is a little predicament. I'm mostly trying to make the most of my vote here, do you prefer that I withhold my vote and not give you any information?

So the farside and andrius wagons aren't wagons?

##Vote: VasudeVa 

ISGMEOY: SaintKerrigan

Any reason why?  

Oh Joy, I'm at L-1 again.

So are you going to claim before someone hammers.

I'll

FoS: VasudeVa

because I want to hammer but I want to see if he'll claim. I also think Jack is scummier but it's doubtful that he will be lynched today. 
  

[Fishythefish]

@Andrius: when I referred to "something you believe" I meant your stance on the grammar thing. It feels genuine.

I've got nothing to say atm. VV is the best lynch.

[VasudeVa]

@Andrius: when I referred to "something you believe" I meant your stance on the grammar thing. It feels genuine.

I've got nothing to say atm. VV is the best lynch.

So says the scum I caught red-handed.

Plus, I still don't see anyone defending me right now. If I was scum, why the fuck won't my scumbuddy even attempt to defend me? Your cases against me are weak and shitty, I don't even.

If any of you had brains, you would see that these weak and shitty cases are so easily deflected.

---

To explain why your cases are weak and shitty:
Let's ignore the fact that some of the reasons why people are voting for me could be considered null tells given the dual faction nature.

Everyone keeps arguing that I am doing these(namely: wagoning, survival mode) because of the confirmation bias in your heads that I am scum.

Which is stupid.

There is a massive difference between 'Actions that scum are likely to do' and 'Actions he did because he is scum'.


---

The best case right now is my case on fishy. It is unbiased, and I caught it even WITHOUT any pressure on his part(which is fkn awesome if you ask me).

Fish needs more rope.

[Fishythefish]

@VV: your case on me amounts to "seeing both sides of an argument is scummy". There's no more to it than that. Your two contrasting quotes are:
"I agree that this is a piece of evidence in favour of argument A".
"I don't believe argument A is true".
There is quite obviously no contradiction there.

[Jack]

VV, vote andrius please.

[VasudeVa]

@VV: your case on me amounts to "seeing both sides of an argument is scummy". There's no more to it than that. Your two contrasting quotes are:
"I agree that this is a piece of evidence in favour of argument A".
"I don't believe argument A is true".
There is quite obviously no contradiction there.

False.

Also lame defense btw.

----

I said SENTIMENTS, not STATEMENTS.

Here is why they contradict:

ISO 31:
"I agree that the fact that what you said is pretty obviously a silly thing to say makes it more likely it was a genuine mistake. "

By openly declaring in thread that you agree that the sillyness of my statement, the only sentiment you could have if you were a honest townie, is 'I don't think VV made a mistake'. Or at the very least 'It was likely that VV made a mistake'.

However, you suddenly posted this:

ISO 37:
"No, I don't think you made a mistake. I'm not 100% certain, but it's unlikely. "

And this one, clearly, the sentiment is 'VV made a mistake'. Note the 'I don't think' bullshit you are spewing has been redacted. That's for the cognitive dissonance case later~

There is simply no reason for an honest townie to think one of {I don't think VV made a mistake, It was likely that VV made a mistake} and {VV made a mistake}

Now then, (Third time repeating the same sentence woot!)
Why post ISO 31 at all then if you were already thinking ISO 37?

---
Minor Contradiction:
ISO 31:
"I agree that the fact that what you said is pretty obviously a silly thing to say makes it

more likely

it was a genuine mistake. "

ISO 37:
"No, I don't think you made a mistake. I'm not 100% certain,

but it's unlikely

. "

--
Cognitive Dissonance:
ISO 37:
"No, I don't think you made a mistake. I'm not 100% certain, but it's unlikely.

Cognitive Dissonance is a strong scumtell. Why? Because the role scum have makes them strongly dissonant due to the nature of their role. The idea of Cognitive Dissonance is: That there is an uncomfortable feeling when somebody thinks two contradicting sentiments at once.

In this example:
Fishy is thinking two contradictory sentiments*explained above*!

Just see how uncomfortable this sentence is. It's weak, it's vulnerable and
most importantly, it sounds unsure. He did not have enough time to think that it looks this weak though(see timestamps of 340 and 341).

And as to WHY scum should be dissonant?
Scum are supposed to be lying, and faking and etc. to achieve their wincon otherwise town will catch on to them.

--

tl;dr: Fish is scum. There is no way he is getting out of the points I made, and he is free to try and squirm and VV will just point and laugh.

[zoraster]

Day 1 Vote Count

Nobody Special ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
Zang ( 0 )
Jack ( 1 ) Zang,
SaintKerrigan ( 0 )
Zajnet ( 0 )
NavyCherub ( 0 )
VasudeVa ( 6 ) Zajnet, farside22, AlmasterGM, Andrius, Fishythefish, Steam-Powered Shovel,
Andrius ( 4 ) Jack, SaintKerrigan, Nobody Special,
Fishythefish ( 1 ) VasudeVa,
Steam-Powered Shovel ( 1 ) NavyCherub,
AlmasterGM ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 0 )
Total Votes ( 13 )
Deadline: June 14th at 23:00 EDT
With 13 total votes, 7 needed to lynch.

Marketplace

To place a bid, PM Zoraster with the highest price you would be willing to pay.

1 Mugger x 1

- This one-shot ability may be used at night against another player. This will steal all cash and abilities from that player, leaving that player with nothing. That player will retain any debt they had before. You may NOT mug yourself and if you are mafia you may not mug your teammate.
MB: 50 CB: 0 Deadline: Not Yet Open - Opens 6/15

2 Banker

- This gives the ability to set the interest rate on debt. You may set it at 2%, 5%, 10%, or 15% . You must submit this before the night, and it will be in effect the night after you have submitted. So if you submit 5% on Day 2, it will become the interest rate for night 3. Players will be informed of the upcoming interest rate. Finally, this ability gives the Banker a 20% discount on all abilities being sold because of bankruptcy. For example, if Ability X is put on the market because of bankruptcy, and the Banker ends up purchasing that ability for $100, he will only have to pay $80.
MB: 10 CB: 0 Deadline: Not Yet Open - Opens 6/15

3 Gunsmith

- This ability gives its owner the ability to investigate one person a night to see if they have a gun. Night Killers, Muggers, Cops will have guns. There are other abilities that may be purchased in the future that will also have a gun. If a player holds both a gun-role and the investigation immunity role, they will come up as not having a gun.
MB: 5 CB: 0 Deadline: Not Yet Open - Opens 6/15

4 Promotion

- You receive a $75 wage increase (in addition to your current wage), but in order to receive this increase each night you must choose one player to promote under you. This player will receive a permanent $25 wage increase (in addition to their previous wage). You may only promote each person once.
MB: 75 CB: 0 Deadline: Not Yet Open - Opens 6/15

5 World Cup Petty Better

- You may PM the mod with a full list of the result you believe will occur in each group stage World Cup match (who will win or draw). For every correct choice, you will receive $1. This PM must be received BEFORE the Mexico-South Africa match begins on 6/12. In the event this is stolen or sold, the new owner will get a chance to pick any games that come after the PM with selections is sent to the mod. The old owner will no longer receive money from future choices.
MB: 1 CB: 1 Deadline: SOLD 6/10/2010

Current bids may not be up-to-date. Current Bids and Deadlines will only be kept up-to-date by edit until the next vote count is posted.

Just a reminder: the deadline is in about two days.

[VasudeVa]

@Jack: Hows about we lynch obvscum fishy, I get NK'ed tonight and we all live happily ever after?

[VasudeVa]

A possibly good read for this town!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Confirmation bias: Stop it.

[Jack]

Yes, could farside and zajnet chime in on what they think? VV is seeming like a lazy lynch at this point.

I'm neutral on fishy. Andrius is much better. See my previous comments.

[VasudeVa]

I'm neutral on fishy. Andrius is much better. See my previous comments.

Andy is for D2. Fish is way scummier than Andy.

Andy -> Fake scumhunting(totally unconfirmable).
Fish -> Contradictory sentiments/intent(which ever word works), Dissonance, minor contradiction (Confirmed, by moi.)

Why neutral on Fish?

[Jack]

Haven't seen anything to swing me either way on him.

I disagree with your read of the mistake contradiction business (just read it now). He was saying how he didn't think it was a mistake, and in that ISO 31 was just acknowledging your point, but didn't indicated that it changed his position.

If there's something scummy about him it's likely him tunneling on you when he should have backed off, I'd have to reread that though.

[VasudeVa]

I disagree with your read of the mistake contradiction business (just read it now). He was saying how he didn't think it was a mistake, and in that ISO 31 was just acknowledging your point, but didn't indicated that it changed his position.

Intent matters. I thought it was obvious but w/e. Do I have to point out the possible intents of both phrases, or can you figure it out on your own?

[Jack]

I say things like this:

"I agree that the fact that what you said is pretty obviously a silly thing to say makes it more likely it was a genuine mistake. "

When I'm acknowledging a point that doesn't change my opinion. It's like saying "yes that's true, but inconsequential, now stop talking about it".

[VasudeVa]

I say things like this:

"I agree that the fact that what you said is pretty obviously a silly thing to say makes it more likely it was a genuine mistake. "

When I'm acknowledging a point that doesn't change my opinion. It's like saying "yes that's true, but inconsequential, now stop talking about it".

Hmm...this does make sense if he worded it out like that. However, since he didn't, I hold my case.

---

@Everyone on my Wagon: Aside from, apparently 'lying' about making a mistake, why am I scum? And don't BS me about survival mode and wagoning. Aside from the fact that there are plenty of other people here that are guiltier of wagoning than I am, I have explained my stance on my actions AND have pointed out plenty of reasons why I am town.

Also, Andrius' "Lynch anyone but me" argument is stupid. Why would I want myself to get lynched, scum or otherwise?

The longer this draws out, the likelier that I am going to be a deadline lynch. WHICH IS WHAT SCUM WANTS. So, town, get off your lurkiness and get discussing. (Man, I feel like I'm the only one here who actually wants to win.)

[Andrius]

@ Vas: Your case on Fishy being:

*Ahem*
Why Fish is Scum: A Qualitative Analysis of a Fishy Scumbag's Posts

ISO 31:
"I agree that the fact that what you said is pretty obviously a silly thing to say makes it more likely it was a genuine mistake. "

ISO 37:
"No, I don't think you made a mistake"

Saying that "I agree that the fact that what you said is pretty obviously a silly thing to say makes it more likely it was a genuine mistake. "
does not go with the sentiment
"I don't think you made a mistake"

Why say the first sentence at all when, in your mind, you are already thinking the second sentence.

There you have it, ladies and gentle men. Also, I would like to point out: ISO 37 is a classic example of cognitive dissonance.

##Vote: Fishy

Let me get this straight, because I'm not sure I follow your train of thought yet.
You're saying that in ISO 31 Fishy says your "silly mistake" was a "genuine mistake" and in ISO 37 he says he doesn't think it was a mistake.
So you're voting him because of his contradiction?
And I'm not a scientist, so having looked at your link to Cognitive Dissonance I have to ask, how does C.D. apply here? I'm still a tad confused.

Also, regarding asking for metas: Back then, I thought they worked. But now I don't. Anything wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with it, I just noticed that you weren't running around asking for everyone's metas.

In an unrelated note:

I won Greek Mythos. I believe in Epic.

Man, you're funny. XD.

C'mon man. There was a good amount of epic in that game. You can't deny that.

AKA "Zomg SK didn't provide a 'good' reason for his vote, he must be scummiez." I do believe I explained later that the vote was to try and get information.

And how praytell, do you defend your vote on me? Because there's a clear distinction between voting someone because you think they are scum and getting an "uneasy feeling" about someone's posts.

Conveniently leaving out the part where you were already a high suspect on my list and I was in fact voting you in lieu of VV earlier. Personally, I think both of you need to find a noose, and it doesn't really matter which of you two finds it first.

Again, there's a clear distinction between getting an "uneasy feeling" about my posts and bumping me up to "high suspect" on your scumladder.

And you expected people to not vote you for this? Say something stupid was "intentional" doesn't make it any less stupid, or less vote-worthy. Put another way: you're reaping what you've sown.

I expect people to vote me. That's not the deal.
Don't we all reap what we've sown, though? I fail to see how that makes more sense here than it does anywhere else.

You can however, vote SK and appease me for a brownie point. (Not redeemable for townie points. Reedemable for brownies.)

And yet you don't extend me the same offer. Favoritism for a scumbuddy, eh?

You want to vote yourself in exchange for a brownie point? Odd.
More like favoritism for a Greek Mythos player. It has been my favorite, most enjoyable game thus far.
But yes, SK. If you want to vote yourself- or even VV- go right ahead.

I'm sorry, did you say you learned something from that?

Yes, I did say that.

Is every wagon led by you?

Him or VV- pretty much.

With these roles somebody could achieve the money win.

I doubt it.

VV, vote andrius please.

Am I your #1 target ATM?

[Nobody Special]

VV has been tunneling Fish long enough. I realize that I knew what VV meant when he said that whole language clusterf*ck thing, but I also see that he's been flailing and pointing fingers wildly ever since.

I do not like this, Sam I Am.

##unvote

##Vote: VV

[VasudeVa]

VV has been tunneling Fish long enough. I realize that I knew what VV meant when he said that whole language clusterf*ck thing, but I also see that he's been flailing and pointing fingers wildly ever since.

I do not like this, Sam I Am.

##unvote

##Vote: VV

Ugh.

That's the second time you've hammered me when I'm town.

[VasudeVa]

Let me get this straight, because I'm not sure I follow your train of thought yet.
You're saying that in ISO 31 Fishy says your "silly mistake" was a "genuine mistake" and in ISO 37 he says he doesn't think it was a mistake.
So you're voting him because of his contradiction?
And I'm not a scientist, so having looked at your link to Cognitive Dissonance I have to ask, how does C.D. apply here? I'm still a tad confused.

CD has alot to do with being unsure. And it's quite useful in mafia(provided the town actually LISTENS and are not stupid.)

Suppose a hypothetical situation:
Player A is scum. He believes that wagoning is scummy.
Player B is town. Player B is wagoning.
Player A points to town that B is wagoning.

Now, depending on how Town questions A and how A reacts, if he is being unsure about his stance, he is very likely to be scum.

Townies usually have a lot of confirmation bias~ Doesn't matter if they know nothing, as long as they think they are confirming their beliefs. And thus, appear REALLY sure about themselves. (Actually, this is why I don't mind being hammered, as it will eventually help in my wincon as there probably are 1-3 scum in my wagon. I just don't want to be killed off yet T_T)

---

Hey other-non-fishy-scum-faction. Please NK fish. You know you want to~

[VasudeVa]

NS might be scum too(possibly partners with Fishy).

I don't remember being in the other game long enough for him to be 'used to my idiomatic posting'. That's some undeserved buddying there.(Not sure, but it's a point to be made.)(For Greek Mythology alumni, It's like how Jack was buddying me on my D1 lynch~)

[VasudeVa]

No wait, I messed the CD explanation up.

---

Player A does NOT think wagoning is scummy, and then the two conflicting ideas come out.