Mini 985:Madness at Night: Game over

[llamaeatataco]

/confirm, will post actual post in about 2 hours.

[llamaeatataco]

Wheee, got here faster than expected... I think. Anyway, a few things (that will just confuse everyone):


Ohai alamanatee!

RVS question:
1. What Timezone do you live in? This will be important when we get into more important parts of the game and not everyone lives in the same time zone.

GMT - 5 hours. I'm too lazy to figure what the timezone I live in is called.

2. How much experience do you have with Mafia?
I came from epicmafia, I started there summer before last. I think. I've played a few games here.

3. How did you end up on Mafiascum?
I decided that the community on EM was starting to suck balls, so I came here to learn how to play like a pro.
4. Do you prefer RVS or RQS?
wutisrqs? RQS. I'd rather have both though, because we can and it's free.
5. Describe your play style (Optional)
Err... Useless townie? If I were going to be honest, that's what I'd say. As for how I catch scum... I've been doing the logical route, but that's failed me about as much as it has succeeded. so I'm trying to go for more of a gut approach. That's how I do everything else in life anyway, so It'll probably help.


I prefer to follow, actually. Well, to put it more accurately, I prefer to decide whether to follow or not. I find it easier, though it might not be as effective.


Gee, that took me all of ten minutes. Why are you people complaining about the questions? They're just a way to get us talking, much like the the RVS is supposed to do.

Donkey dude (podium) for town.

Crypto for awesome and SSBF for town.

vote: alamasterGM

I was going to random vote him anyway, but after reading it isn't so random anymore.

[llamaeatataco]

Oh, I thought it was obvious enough: I would have voted him in the RVS, but we're done with that now. What specifically do I find wrong with him? Basically, his vote on hiphop. He said himself he didn't really think hiphop was scummy, just annoying. I find no reason to restate stuff that is clearly obvious and has been said by everyone else. I've been yelled at before for 'restating stuff to make it look like I was contributing' so I figured I'd try not doing that. Screwed if I do, screwed if I don't, it seems.

He's a popular wagon for a reason.

Why do I find SSBMF town? It's just what I've felt reading his posts. No solid reason, just the impression I get.


I wrote some stuff here, and then read the second half of Podium's post. Pretty much what he said: Why do you ask for explanations from other people but not give them yourself?

[llamaeatataco]

Sando, quit misrepresenting what happened. I thought alamaster was scummy for jumping on a wagon

for a stated, shitty, reason.

I voted for him and made it (I thought) pretty damn obvious that I was doing it for the reasons already stated (that his given reason was a bunch of orca crap). There's a difference between blatantly saying 'I am voting this person for a stupid reason' and just not retyping reasons already given. I would vote you, but that would be full of omgus and fail and I don't like to do that, so I'll just

FoS:Sando

and leave it at that.

[llamaeatataco]

There's no connection at all. He's just being annoying.

Was that not him saying he was voting him for being annoying?


You also keep saying that I jumped on the wagon for no given reason... And yet I have already given my reason... Are you trolling me or just that slow or just trying to manipulate the facts even more?

I know there's more to OMGUS, but judging by how he's acted so far I'm almost certain that's what he'd call it and he'd get all pissy. He doesn't seem to comprehend everything that I say... Also...

I don't have a better target at the moment and I do like Sando's case on llamaeatataco

wtf? 'you wagoned and didn't give a reason'
'sorry, I was saying I like this reason right here, and here's what it was and why I liked it'

'you didn't give a reason you're scum!'


That is the condensed version of his case.

[llamaeatataco]

random off topic question: how do you do those awesome quotes? There's probably a wiki page, but I can't find it.


Alamanatee:

If that's a catchup post...try again.

^ wholehearted agreement.

No, this is basically what I see:

You voted AlmasterGM since it wasn't random, which sounds like bandwagoning. That made you look hypocritical.

*You delayed explaining why you found AlmasterGM scummy until Sando voted for you.

*ISO: 3, you basically made an OMGUS reply to Sando, trying to cover that up by saying "It would be full-blown OMGUS if I voted for him!".

*: Things that I've just brought up.

1. Have you heard of the saying 'better to be silent and thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt'? That's somewhat applicable but not really. Basically, alamaster said that he was voting hiphop for a silly reason. At the moment I didn't know that it was supposed to be an RVS vote, so I figured he was just giving a silly reason. I actually didn't write as much as I intended to in my post, so I didn't give a reason. With a little jump of logic you could assume that I meant I was voting him for what other people disliked him for: his vote on hiphop.

2. Misrep. I didn't realize it was a problem until he said something, and I corrected it in my very next post. He said something about it and voted all in the same post, all before I had a chance to post again. Now, if I were going to interpret the situation in my favor, here's how I'd do it:
"Llama forgot to include his reason in his post, and then corrected it immediately after in his very next post. What a helpful guy!"
Do you see the difference?

3. How was it OMGUS? I explained exactly why I found his attack scummy (he misrepresented the situation, ignored my posts that explained why I voted him and tried to hold up outdated, irrelevant points as dah troof.) The reason that I said voting him would be omgus and full of fail is because that's what would have happened if I had voted him. Sure it wasn't really OMGUS, but he could have called it that and made a big deal and shit and then people wouldn't have listened to me. They'd just see the vote and assume that I was just doing it because he voted me. The cool thing is, I don't have to vote him for him to be lynched. (I don't even want a lynch this early anyway, he hasn't incriminated himself enough yet.) If I make good points, the rest of you can vote and lynch him. Basically, I wanted to get my point across without having to work through the stigma attached to voting the person who's voting you.

oh yeah, and

unvote

in case I forget.

llama wrote:

He's a popular wagon for a reason.

Nice appeal to popularity.

How is that an appeal to popularity? Learn your fallacies before you accuse other people. I was saying that you were a popular wagon for a reason to get across the point that you did something other people didn't like.

Sando, quit misrepresenting what happened. I thought alamaster was scummy for jumping on a wagon for a stated, shitty, reason. I voted for him and made it (I thought) pretty damn obvious that I was doing it for the reasons already stated (that his given reason was a bunch of orca crap). There's a difference between blatantly saying 'I am voting this person for a stupid reason' and just not retyping reasons already given. I would vote you, but that would be full of omgus and fail and I don't like to do that, so I'll just FoS:Sando and leave it at that.

Combined with the previous two posts, I don't like this post from llama. It seems like he is making up his reason for voting me ex-post-facto and just wanted to be on the early wagon early. Also, the fact that he FOS's Sando just for questioning the situation shows that he's playing extremely defensively and ovveracting to the possibility that he could be caught in this lie.

I'm sorry, what? Pointing out that someones 'case' is completely ridiculous is scummy now? Is it just because it was on me? If he had put that case up on someone else, I would have- wait, deja vu. Anyway, alamanatee, you've heard this speech before, and the rest of you already know what I was going to say anyway. Oh yeah, and why in hell would I intentionally be hypocritical and retarded, jumping on a wagon and then

making up a reason that was already there

on day 1, just barely out of the rvs? If you can explain how that makes any logical sense as scum, I'll give you a cookie. Seriously, you should know by now that I do stupid shit.


oh yeah, and

vote: Sando

because I can and it's free. Oh, and because he's still trying to continue with his case.

[llamaeatataco]

ssbf:

Your vote is currently on Sando. If you're putting a vote on a person, that means you are supporting a lynch on that particular person eventually. Now granted, it doesn't mean you're gung-ho on the lynch now as you pointed out, but eventually, if you still have the vote on that person, you'll want him dead.

Yeah, what's your point?

Llama, you spend an entire (and pretty long post at that) attacking almasta, then vote me? Some reasoning beyond 'he's attacking me still' would be nice, especially given that you're being attacked for not providing reasoning.

Because I'm an idiot. I thought that a random vote was meant to be serious because I read the thread out of order. At least, I'm fairly certain I did. I can build an entire castle, but if I built it on sand then it doesn't really matter does it?
As for giving you a reason... Go to the bottom of the page. See the part where it says 'display posts from previous:' click the downward facing arrow to the right of the part where it says 'all users' and then click 'llamaeatataco'. Now click go. read the second to bottom post on the page you will be taken to, then the one above it. There's your reasoning.

crypto:

I'm totally up for wagoning on Spyre but I don't want to lose the admittedly shallow and bland mystique of my vote on SSBF.

I was right, this will be an interesting game.


anyway... as for what you actually, said, and your issue with ssbf... I would say I find it suspicious that you didn't give a reason, but I'm so taken in by your disarming charm and wit that I forgot completely what my problem was in the first place... Actually, I just think I know what you're doing and where it will hopefully go and I want to see if it works.


As for spyrex, I don't particularly like metagaming and stuff like that, so I'm just going to stay out of that one.

[llamaeatataco]

@miller claim: what hiphop said, basically. Cop don't investigate, good to claim now etc.

Basically, you contradicted yourself in the same post. You said you didn't want anyone lynched yet, then you take back the statement by voting Sando.

No I didn't. You even acknowledged that I didn't in the post before this I think. Here, I'll quote it for you:

Your vote is currently on Sando. If you're putting a vote on a person, that means you are supporting a lynch on that particular person eventually. Now granted, it doesn't mean you're gung-ho on the lynch now as you pointed out, but eventually, if you still have the vote on that person, you'll want him dead.

(I don't even want a lynch this early anyway, he hasn't incriminated himself enough yet.)

Your vote is currently on Sando.

If you're putting a vote on a person, that means you are supporting a lynch on that particular person eventually. Now granted, it doesn't mean you're gung-ho on the lynch now as you pointed out

, but eventually, if you still have the vote on that person, you'll want him dead.

Basically, you contradicted yourself in the same post. You said you didn't want anyone lynched yet, then you take back the statement by voting Sando.

I would re-paste the quotes of you over and over alternating to simulate one of those scenes in a cartoon where a person looks from one object to another that seems to contradict its existence [IE: two identical objects/people] but that would be annoying and you can get the same effect by flicking your eyes back and forth between the two quotes. I bolded the important bits to make it easier for you to see what I was getting at, but here's what it is in a nutshell: You said at first that you agreed with me (votes don't mean I want to lynch immediately) and then you say that you meant I contradicted myself. Wtf are you trying to say?


Spyrex is lurking. What's your point? Lurking =/= scum all the time, but we could pressure vote him or something. IMO lurkers are fine d1 lynches actually...

unvote, vote:spyrex

[llamaeatataco]

Actually Spyrex, there isn't really a difference. At that point in time I figured they were going for some sort of weird 'you played differently in this game where you were town, so you must be scum' things. Now you're just straight up not really saying anything of value, and active lurkers are good d1 lynches.

Not too impressed by nopoint's post 85. First he gives a bad response to crypto's question, then even though his response to charter is justified, he doesn't deny the accusation. The last sentence is terrible also. All his reads are copies of other player's reads and he gives himself room to backpedal by saying that they are just gut reads. The fact that he doesn't have any reasons to suspect anybody seems suspicious.

Now that you mention it... That does seem to be the case. Now shall we proceed to miller claim Wifom? 'did he intentionally draw attention to himself because he's town and it doesn't matter to him, or did he do it because he's scum and wants to look town?'



oh, and because I missed it in my last post and I want to feel like this post means something:

So I ask you again, why am I scummy?

I've merely said that I'm suspicious of you for your current play. I haven't voted you, I haven't said you're scum, I haven't FOS'd you.

This is scummy. He completely avoids answering hiphop's question while at the same time he feels the need to point out that he hasn't voted, fos'd, or called hiphop scum.

That looks to me like a perfectly fine answer to hiphop's question.

O RLY? I'm pretty sure everything Wicked said was true. He did avoid the question. He did try to disguise this by pointing out that he didn't vote/fos him. Or maybe he thought that excused his not answering the question. I dunno.

[llamaeatataco]

damn you wicked, I was going to do pretty much that exact same thing, but Italicizing that portion instead of bolding it. D:<

So is it a pressure vote or is it a vote to lynch him? Also, the two bolded portions are very contradictory. Way to take two different stances twice.

I was sort of thinking out loud... It's actually both. It's a pressure vote that is going to become a lynch vote if he doesn't do some stuff. Also, I'm not taking two different stances. They aren't contradictory if you think about it... Lurking isn't a 100% guaranteed scumtell, but it IS anti-town. Lurkers are good d1 lynches because they are anti-town, not necessarily scummy. Or, rather, not pro-town. And what do you mean by twice? If you're alluding to Sando's attempt to make my complex thoughts seem contradictory, I'm just going to ignore you about that particular issue.

[llamaeatataco]

This is an OMGUS reply and vote. I honestly don't see how that quote is scummy at all. Why was that quote scummy?

Not quite straight up OMGUS, but the cover up for it was heinously flimsy.

Seriously SpyreX? Have you completely forgotten Mafia 96: Murder in Emerald City? Ya'know, the game where Kublai Khan, Mafia, claimed miller in his first post and survived to the end and won. I find it very hard to believe that you would forget that game. It was only a year ago. Unvote. Vote: SpyreX

This is the only one I don't agree with. Claiming miller is still a ballsy move as mafia. Either town thinks you're real miller or they think you're mafia trying to look like miller. Sure claiming miller saves you from the cop, but for that very reason it makes you more likely to get lynched. As scum, it's a wifom move as I sated before, and by very nature all wifom tactics are ballsy.

[llamaeatataco]

So there's no difference and it just happened to fit in with this awesome new lynch, lynch gojuice?

And yes this is totally 1000% OMGUS because my lord thats what I did right. I didn't actually, ya know, say that you're playing at that vote as a function of the general feel of the game or anything rite.

You know, like maybe, just maybe, it was a shameless bandwagon RITE.

Actually, there was a difference now that I think about it. You lurked moar. Your attempt to disguise it was pathetic. 'zomg you're just bandwagoning you must be scum!'

Hiphop was looking very good till the vote on almaster. The whole 'I'm going to act like an idiot to catch opportunistic scum' was a bit labored, and I think hiphop isn't addressing why almaster actually voted for him.

Now, the recently given interpretation of that post:

Hiphop looked pro-town (very good) because he was doing his best to act obnoxious and draw attention to himself. 'Very good' was probably a bad term to use, as I don't think it's good play, but I think it's townie play. I didn't like his vote on almaster, it made his buffoon play look less like drawing out scum, and more like jumping on someone who fell into his 'trap'. Just because I think it looked like a fairly obvious (labored) attempt doesn't change my view of the motivations behind it.

You were townie for reacting how you did to hiphop, and not getting drawn into silly arguments and attacking such an obvious target. Your view of hiphop made me think town, scum aren't likely to declare a 'buffoon' town in my opinion.

fits fairly well with the post taken in isolation. He thought hiphop was just town doing a cliche gambit and playing it out in a cliche way. Not suspicious at all, just not very well done. (hence, not liking it.)

However, when you add in some of the comments he made regarding that post earlier in the day... (ISO 2, assuming I'm right about what this abbreviation means):

Do I find you scummy? I said in my post why

I'm suspicious

of your game so far:

Well now, this is certainly a different interpretation. Note the bolded portion.


Now, read this:

Seriously? He's asking me why I find him scummy, when I have never said that I find him scummy.

How about you show me where, ever, I've said that I found hiphop scummy. Scummy, not 'suspicious'. I'll tell you when I find someone scummy.

Ahhh, that explains the discrepancy. Obviously Sando didn't mean scummy, he just meant suspicious. So there's absolutely no disconnect between Sando saying in Iso 2 that he finds him suspicious and then on this page that:

I didn't like his vote on almaster, it made his buffoon play look less like drawing out scum, and more like jumping on someone who fell into his 'trap'.

So now it's just that he didn't like it. We've gone from implying scum to saying 'suspicious, not scummy' to merely thinking it was a poor move with townie motivations.

Ehh, what the hell. I was trying to be all clever and sound superior while showing how Sando is backpedaling like crazy, but It's probably just going to confuse everyone. Just go read his ISO 1, 2 and then 15.


Sando, what exactly is the difference between suspicious and scummy? Is it just a semantics ploy to try and make your newest interpretation a little more believable?


Everyone else, I think I'm going to listen to hiphop and give spyrex a chance to find his powerhat 9000... But only because I can only vote one person at a time and I now have a much better target.

unvote, vote:Sando

[llamaeatataco]

Mod, I thought I was currently voting Sando.

I agree with the end of Alamaster's post here viewtopic.php?p=2313690#p2313690
with regard to it looking like llama is trying to come up with a legit reason to vote Alamaster after the fact. It really looks like he's reaching with his Alamaster vote and suspicions.

Yay! You can echo opinions that have been expressed before without really saying anything solid! Especially when those opinions make no sense at all...

There were some other of llama's arguments I thought were dodgy. And then he switches to Sando instead of Alamaster for no reason (he says "because I can") and it just looks like he's doing it since the Alamaster wagon lost all steam.

GTFO troll. Seriously though... did you even read my posts or did you just kind of skim? I'll explain it for you: Alamanatee's vote was RVS. I don't really give a damn if people have stupid reasons in the rvs. Can you understand it now? I switched to Sando because he's fricken' scummy.

Llama votes Spyrex for lurking. I don't really think Spyrex is lurking. Me or Nopoint are lurking much more. I'm starting to see a pattern of voting for the sake of voting, not trying to find scum.

Yes you're both lurking, but we can only lynch one lurker at a time. No point in trying to get three different wagons going that are comprised of 2-3 people. Are you saying that Spyrex is less of a lurker because you were lurking as well?


Someone please read my last post please... And comment on it, even if you're just telling me I'm retarded.

[llamaeatataco]

As for llama's above? Real difference between charter and I and where the vote went where it did? I had people voting for me. Simple and scummy as that.

-_- If you were lurkerscum, would a single vote pressure you at all?

[llamaeatataco]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'tech', but if you are implying that I'm stretching, I'm really not.

I'm pretty sure it's short for 'technical skill.' Maybe this is a term originating from SSB or some other fighting game... ("When he combo'd that guy for the win, it wasn't just luck, it was tech[nical skill].")

@Spyrex: how did I steal the bar? at the point where I voted you, you hadn't really done jack shit. Now that you have I've moved on. It's that simple. We voted you and now you're at least contributing. I was half pressure voting and half wagon-on-the-lurker-because-he's-useless.

[llamaeatataco]

Whoah, I missed that.

Llama, who do you not think at this stage is town? In effect, who are you not prepared to say is town at this juncture? I'm willing to bet it's a long list, as would all of towns, and the reason for that is simple, you still suspect them. Actually, you don't need to answer that, just think about it.

I'm suspicious of anyone who I don't feel is town, do you not agree with this?

There is a difference between merely being suspicious of someone because everyone in the game is scummy and actually saying you're suspicious of them. If you actually say it about them specifically, that makes them different (more scummy). And then of course there's the fact that you can't really interpret your earlier posts as anything other than 'I think hiphop is scum,' and then your later posts also can't be interpreted as anything other than 'I never thought he was scum.'

mod can you please prod everyone who hasn't posted in 72 hours, like your rules specify, I guess that means just Almaster. Yes I know the forums were closed, but can you do it anyways just to humor me

lol. I thought about doing this as soon as the forums were opened but the topic was locked and I forgot.

Uh, how is this even remotely responsive? Your vote on me was not RVS. Nooo way. Do not even try and play that card now.

I'm pretty sure I was saying your vote on hiphop was rvs, which is what you said and seems to fit with what was going on at the time. Hence me saying your vote instead of my vote.



Supershort comments on everything else because I have to leave:

@Spyrex: Don't be a tool. Everyone who read the thread knows why I did that and hopefully they all know why it makes sense.

@alamanatee: cool story bro. So are you saying I'm scummy for any real reason, or are you just doing it because all of the cool kids are?

@end of hiphop's post: Spyrex isn't saying we're all scum together, just that we're all scummy because we wanted to lynch him.

@this:

You know crypto I think I will follow the bottom of this post and jump on. unvote vote SSBF But then again unvote. You know I really dislike newbies in a way. I can never tell whether their play is scummy, or just bad play. Ok fine, his play is scummy and any non-newbie would and should have a rather large bw by now. So,
vote SSBF

IoW: kk, wagon tiem.

@this:

That seems like a pretty clear refusal to state that anyone other than SSBF is scummy, and I inferred from that refusal that you wouldn't be voting anyone other than SSBF at that point, I don't think that's a stretch at all.

He makes a good point. Who are your three townies?

[llamaeatataco]

Ok, now I'm like 100% sure Spyrex is town and Llama is scum. You should probably not answer that since we don't have any obvtownies (obvious fishing for NK targets).

Spyrex has not really said jack shit except for 'you're stupid for trying to lynch me' and 'ssbf is scum.' He says he thinks everyone is scum except for his three people, so asking him for people other than ssbf and me that he is suspicious is useless. The next best thing is his trio of 'not scum.' You see, if I was scum I wouldn't give a damn about who spyrex thought was town because I have seen no evidence showing that a) he knows what he's doing and b) people agree with him. So, obvious stretching is obvious.

Llama's response to my vote is pretty much just calling me stupid, not explaining any of his actions, so real happy with my vote on him. Actually, this seems to be a major part of his defense against everyone. Shame it's just going to do the opposite of what he wants.

Oh, I was supposed to explain my actions. Which ones?

Llama votes Spyrex for lurking. I don't really think Spyrex is lurking. Me or Nopoint are lurking much more. I'm starting to see a pattern of voting for the sake of voting, not trying to find scum.

Oh, maybe that was your question... It's a good thing I didn't already answer that Here:

Yes you're both lurking, but we can only lynch one lurker at a time. No point in trying to get three different wagons going that are comprised of 2-3 people. Are you saying that Spyrex is less of a lurker because you were lurking as well?

How am I calling you stupid? You are either playing poorly as mafia and just trying to bullshit your way to a lynch (I'm now tied with ssbf for votes, and with you hinting a team between us you could easily park your vote on ssbf tomorrow for another mislynch) or your town... I honestly cannot think of a reason for town to blatantly lie like that, actually. Charter, why would you say this?

Llama's response to my vote is pretty much just calling me stupid, not explaining any of his actions, so real happy with my vote on him. Actually, this seems to be a major part of his defense against everyone. Shame it's just going to do the opposite of what he wants.

Blatant lies don't help either the town or your scumbuddies, so it's obviously a poor play. A poor play that only makes sense as a poor scum play and not a poor town play.

[llamaeatataco]

Oh crap, I totally missed 80% of Alamanatee's post. I only read the last bit for some reason... I think it's because I was hella late for work. Anyway, to expand:

So you're just asking people to excuse your behavior by saying either "you're voting that way too." Or saying, "look at all these other people, they can't all be stupid." Or, "if you're going to call someone out, do it on one of those other people." There is no argumentative value to your statement.

No. I was saying 'You're doing scummy things.' Other people were voting you because you were doing things perceived as scummy at the time. It's not, 'look at all these other people, they can't all be stupid,' It's 'You're obviously doing something wrong because there are people voting for you." Subtle difference, but important. If I wanted to be super dogged and tunnelvision-y, I could say that you were scummy for attacking me because you thought I was the weakest link, but I don't really believe that myself. Also, You're posts are longer than in Halo Mafia IIRC. Not important but I just thought of it.

I was one of the first people to suspect you (maybe even THE first), and I'm the first person on your wagon, so STFU n00b.

Lol, I count 2 votes on me (Sando and SSBF) an FoS or two and a few comments like "wtf y u do that llama?" Except spelled correctly ALL BEFORE YOU EVEN POSTED. I'm pretty sure I just call Charter out on this exact same thing in my last post. Obv lies are obv. How in hell does this sort of thing make sense as town OR scum?

[llamaeatataco]

mod, I will be v/la until Sunday (not tomorrow, the next one)./

No time now, but I'll try to post before I leave. If I don't do it within like... 15 hours or so It isn't happening though.

[llamaeatataco]

I'm thinking that he means he (spyrex) isn't going to say anything about his reads on anyone other than SSBF and me.

Anyway, my bolding failed, so

mod, I will be v/la until Sunday (not tomorrow, the next one).

fix'd.

I'm 'suspicious' of anyone who I don't think of as town, do you disagree with this statement?
Suspicious is not obv-town
Scummy is...scummy.

I'm gonna call BS on this one. Suspicious = Arousing or apt to arouse suspicion; questionable: suspicious behavior. Scummy = something scum would do/something that makes you think someone is scum. Now, why would you question someone's action? Because you think scum would do it. Scummy = suspicious. Word games are fail. They can be hella fun, but trying to wiggle out of a lynch through them is not a good idea.

Uggh, I don't have time to do the rest of it, but I mostly agree with Wicked and Hiphop. I don't really care who you guys lynch out of the popular suspects though (as long as it isn't me). Sando lynch ftw.

[llamaeatataco]

I'm back but I don't have time to post anything substantial at the moment. No time to say anything other than the cop claim was silly and the gunsmith claim even worse. Anyway, I'd rather not claim but I'd also rather not lynch ssbf today. We lose absolutely nothing by lynching him d2 or d3 and we have everything to gain if he is legit cop. I'll be back in seven hours, and I'll claim then if you guys want me to.

[llamaeatataco]

Well balls. I just found out that

I'm going to v/la from tomorrow through Friday.

Not even two full days at home. Oh well, that's right in the night anyway.

Anyway, do you guys want me to claim or not? I'm kind of busy atm so I haven't had time to do much more than skim the last couple of pages or to write about it if I had. I will however reiterate my stance on lynching ssbf: do it tomorrow/day after tomorrow. Who do I propose we should lynch instead? Sando.

unvote, vote: Sando

just in case I wasn't already voting him.

[llamaeatataco]

ohai. this is like 7 fricken' pages for me to catch up on. I did read the highlights though... Sando was scum. I feel like a winner.
Anyway, I may or may not go in to work tomorrow, so I may or may not have my catchup reading done by day after tomorrow. Don't expect a huge wall of text either.

If you lynch me: 1.) Alamanatee could be scum taking advantage of a fail cop (this reminds me of halo mafia... >.<) 2.) he could be insane cop. If you lynch me, you'll be inclined to lynch him when I flip town, or just know that he's insane. I personally think alamanatee = insane cop, ssbf = scum and charter = gunsmith, but I haven't read the past ten pages or so yet. Also, what if ssbf is naive and alamanatee is para and charter is the actual investigative role?

[llamaeatataco]

ok, up to page 18 now.

vote:spyrex

'yeah dawg, he's totally softclaimed being a pr, but let's lynch him while he's on v/la anyway.'

alamanatee also comes out hella scummy imo for his constant reminder that he is MOST DEFINITELY WILLING TO LYNCH THE GUY WHO CAN'T DEFEND HIMSELF.

I'm not reading jack shit from today until I finish my reread, because my brain won't be able to handle it (I hate movies with flashbacks, too).

[llamaeatataco]

I think we should lynch llama before you. If he flips town, then I'm insane and you might be cop. If he flips scum, like I STRONGLY suspect, then you're 100% confirmed scum, no ifs ands or buts. Also consider the fact that you were insanely scummy yesterday, so there's no reason I should believe anything you say at all.

I suggest a third scenario: alamanatee is lying scum and ssbf is insane cop.

@Hiphop: w/e.

Now, why would lynching me be a bad idea? BECAUSE YOU DON'T LEARN ANYTHING! Seriously. Assume you lynch me:

1. I flip scum: You know that alamanatee is either legit sane cop or bussing scum (why the hell he would bus on d2, I dunno, but w/e).
2. I flip town: You know that alamanatee is lying scum or insane.

^^ See that? No matter what my flip is, there's still a possibility that alamanatee is scum.


Also, after finishing my re-read,

unvote, vote:Charter

He claims gunsmith.
Evidence for cops, but no evidence for gunsmiths.
ABSOLUTELY REFUSES TO LYNCH SANDO.
Sando = godfather
Sando lynch = confirming cop almost.

[llamaeatataco]

hiphop, was that a qft or a quoted for fail?

[llamaeatataco]

No clue. If he fails hard enough to do what I just pointed out, it's possible. But then again, that's slightly circular...

I really don't know. I'll figure it out when I'm not watching tv while posting.

[llamaeatataco]

he obviously did. Is there some sort of meta reason to counteract his obvious scumminess?

[llamaeatataco]

then explain his play this game.

[llamaeatataco]

Hey almaster, do you remember what happened the last time the town followed your cop claim with a guilty to a speedlynch d2 (or was it d3, I don't remember)?

[llamaeatataco]

Weren't we in Halo mafia together? Didn't you claim cop and get someone speedlynched when you were really the lyncher?

[llamaeatataco]

also, wtf how could you forget a game like that? It was so full of fail. The scumteam imploding faster than Vulcan in the Star Trek remake, you got your win in less than a page in like 24 hours (I just remember that the whole day passed before I could post).

here's the link in case your amnesia persists.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 08&start=0

Just the highlights: Alamaster was the lyncher, he claimed cop d2 and got a person lynched super fast and won.

And yes I'm being all hypocritical and using meta and stuff, but in this instance the actual content of the other game is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Alamaster is trying his best to ignore it. I do believe I've brought this up before, but I might have edited it out.

f. YOU MADE ME CLICK TWICE!

It definitely applies here. People can fake claim cop, and you still haven't shown us why lynching you wouldn't tell us at least as much as lynching me or ssbf.

THRICE?!?!?

@Spyrex: go read back before my first v/la. I was at like l-2 and I kept saying 'I don't want to claim, are you sure you want to lynch me.' If the scum didn't pick up on that they fail.
Also, please make sense. I read your post like 3 times and I still can't figure out what message you were trying to convey.

[llamaeatataco]

o.0 wtf?

how about this: alamaster is lying scum and ssbf is just a fail insane cop. You see, as long as that is a possibility, lynching me will prove nothing.

[llamaeatataco]

...And why do you think Charter is town? simply because you like his claim?

[llamaeatataco]

Oh, because that totally answered my question.

[llamaeatataco]

and why does it not make sense as scum?

[llamaeatataco]

Spyrex, I'm too lazy to go check again. What is your position on nopoint's claim?

[llamaeatataco]

so you're saying that scum can never trick the town by being daring? That a ballsy claim completely erases a whole game of scumminess?

[llamaeatataco]

wtf where did everybody go? Why does nobody ever post on my days off?

[llamaeatataco]

and what exactly will my death tell you? That Alamaster is either insane/paranoid, real, or lying scum?

[llamaeatataco]

O RLY SSBF? I was just waiting for someone to make a logic fail like that.

First, we're assuming that you are town. This is a stupid assumption, but this is fypov.

1. I flip scum.

ssbf's sanities:
a. sane
-alamaster is paranoid cop
-alamaster is a second sane cop and this setup officially sucks balls
-alamaster is wtffail bussing godfather
-alamaster is insane cop and I am secretly a miller
b. insane
-Alamaster is millercop, sane.
-alamaster is fail bussing godfather
c. naiive
all of the above.


2. I flip town:


a. sane
-alamaster is insane cop
-alamaster is paranoid cop
-alamaster is lying godfather
b. insane
-alamaster is lying scum
c. naiive
all of the above.

So you see, no matter what I flip, you will not know your sanity or alamasters, and you won't know his alignment either. And the rest of the town learns absolutely NOTHING. Because you could be lying scum, and that throws everything off.

Also, I believe that everyone else in the town will believe ssbf's last post to be super scummy. I've seen people use that reasoning before, and I've seen other people jump on those people. The whole 'it's better to lynch this person because if they're scum this other person is scum, no matter how unlikely it is that they are scum' reasoning.

THE BELOW IS HARD TO READ & UNDERSTAND, IGNORE IT UNLESS YOU WANT TO SEE IF I MISSED A SCENARIO.

Scenario one, I flip scum.

You know that alamanatee is NOT an insane cop. You could be sane and he could be A SANE COP (what the f two sane cops nowai), or you could be insane and he is scum bussing for some weird reason. the possibility of two mafia godfathers also screws this up. Now you could be sane and he's bussing scum. Or you're naiive and he's a very lucky para cop and charter is the REAL investigative role.

That's a whooooooole lot of possibilities, and in some of them you guys are both town. I personally don't think that a scum flip from me would tell you anything.

Now, scenario two, when I flip town:

You are sane cop and alamaster is insane/para cop. You are sane/insane and alamaster is lying scum/godfather. You are naiive and alamaster is paranoid/lying scum.

That one seemed a lot more concise.

[llamaeatataco]

oh, and @Hiphop: You never voted for me, and 'follow the town' is stupid. They're all jumping off of a cliff and you're going to follow them? If you're serious, and you and they still want to lynch me in oh... how about 48 hours or so, then I'll claim. My role doesn't exactly work if the scum knows who I am/what it is.

[llamaeatataco]

Hiphop, what did you just try to pull? We have nine people left and I have three votes on me. Unless you thought you voted, that's not really near lynching. Also, Charter alamanatee and spyrex are your TOWN reads? what are you smoking?
...
Weird, I could have sworn I saw Crypto vote for me earlier, but I just reread the day like 3 times and I couldn't find it.

[llamaeatataco]

wtf how does that make any sense?

"follow me gaiz, I'm totally right and even if I'm wrong you've caught scum!"

"But your plan is terrible, and we WON'T catch scum if you're wrong, and we don't believe you anyway. See here, here's like a hundred different plausible scenarios where you're right/wrong and in NONE of them do we definitely catch another scum (assuming you were right the first time)."

"You're just making excuses!"


Mocking people is fun. It's less fun when people don't give you much to work with because they're already being as batshit insane as they could possibly be and you can't think of anything sillier.

You see, you try and characterize us as paranoid, but we're being smart. It seems the only living people who think I'm scum have already voted for me, and others who are considering voting for me are doing it only because they thought your plan would actually tell us something.

I'm telling you, though, it's totally unnecessary. SSBF and llama are just lying through their teeth to think of ANY possible scenario, no matter how far-fetched, to get them out of the noose.

No. Just no. first, ssbf has been wanting to lynch me, I wouldn't mind at all if we lynched him. Some of my scenarios were far fetched, but there were also some plausible ones in there. All it takes is one, and I've given you a dozen. The only reason a person should lynch one of their town reads is if they know beyond a shodow of a doubt that it will catch them at least one scum.

[llamaeatataco]

umm, no. In case you couldn't tell, I am going to vehemently oppose any course of action you suggest.

...Actually, lynching ssbf could be a good idea. Sure it wouldn't tell us anything other than if he's scum or not, but I'm pretty sure he is. But then we'd have to lynch you if he IS a cop. Unless it's a naive/para/gunsmith thing I suggested earlier. hmm.

[llamaeatataco]

...or one of the cop claims is lying or they're naive/para and just there for lulz.

So I am at L-1. Are you sure you want to go through with this plan, even though I have shown you how it won't help the town at all? The only person it could really help is alamanatee. And hell no I don't want to claim. I'm going to do my best to convince you you're being stupid during the week and a half at least we have left. Certainly it could be wasting time that we don't have to waste, but claiming today would be about as bad for the town as wasting a couple of days.

alamanatee voted for me because he got a guilty. Crypto is 'playing along.' Spyrex obviously wants to lynch me anyway. SSBF voted for me because he fails at thinking and believes my death will reveal alamaster's alignment/sanity.

Before I claim, I want to see Crypto and SSBF (and spyrex too, why not?) read my post 578 and still say that lynching me will tell us everything they think it will. They're ignoring the possibility of naive/paranoid and some others as well. Certainly some of those scenarios are unlikely, but there are plenty that are likely and will ruin your attempts to figure out the cops' reliability. Now, do you know what would help us at least as much as lynching me would? Lynching one of the cops. Sure it wouldn't tell us anything about the other's role, but it would have a higher chance of hitting scum than lynching me, and the lack of information is kind of my point. LYNCHING ME WILL NOT TELL YOU ENOUGH FOR IT TO BE WORTH IT.

[llamaeatataco]

I figured out why Charterscum would claim at the time that he did. Because that's what Chartertown would do.

Its the play. Day 1 was awesome and this new welp lets done get lynching a copclaim and when they're a cop lets go lynch the other because I am a SUPER SECRET PR but I wont say more until deadline scramble time because that's hella helpful and all.

1. Unnecessary claims help the scum, not the town.
2. When did I say lynch one then the other?
3. It's not that I'm not going to claim until deadline, it's that I'm not going to claim until I absolutely have to. See 1.


@Alamanatee: I'm pretty sure I said this, and if I didn't it's because the wording was awkward and I edited it out, but what I meant was that lynching me doesn't help you at all unless I'm scum, and if I'm scum it doesn't help you past lynching a scum. Therefore lynch me based on the quality of my play, not the silly business with the cops.

@Charter:

If lynching SSBF didn't make more sense than Llama, I'd hammer Llama in a heartbeat with how ridiculously scummy he's being with all these pleas.

Oh, so it's scummy to show how a bad plan is bad now?

Seriously. You say that lynching me makes less sense than lynching ssbf. I tell you the exact same thing. You then proceed to tell me that I'm being scummy for explaining in detail the exact reason behind lynching me being useless to unravel the cop claims. I told you what you already were thinking, apparently and then you call me suspicious (It's not scummy to explain to the town why their plan will not work. If the town is thickheaded, it is also not scummy to repeat your reasons in detail.)

At least, that's what it would be if you were town. With you as scum that tangled mess of wtf becomes very simple. You want to say you'd lynch me (trying to reinforce the idea that all of the town wants me dead) while still giving yourself a reason not to. This lets you support my lynch while still staying on the sidelines. It also lets you lynch ssbf with absolutely no recourse (It made sense to lynch our cop!). This be fence sitting. "I want to lynch llama but I want to lynch ssbf more."


As awesome as my theory of para/naive/gunsmith is, it's nothing against Charter's scummy play. First he refuses to lynch Sando. then he fence sits like a madman, then he has the balls to tell me that pointing out the obvious flaws in a plan is something scum would do. Do you know what scum would do? If I was scum, I'd take the lynch and then have the town lynch their REAL cop tomorrow. I'm not likely to make it to the end anyway, and giving the scum 2 free kills is a good sacrifice.


Anyway, if you people seriously want to go along with this batshit insane idea, I'll claim. Crypto has obviously taken away his support. HipHop, you're the only one remaining thinking about voting me who I really care about. Do you still want to lynch me?

[llamaeatataco]

Unless it's a naive/para/gunsmith thing I suggested earlier. hmm.

Gee, you even included the answer in there and you didn't see it. The 'unless' is in there for a reason.

Llama's last post is hilarious. 'He did it as scum because he'd do it as town'. I don't think suspicions get any more flimsy than that. So hilarious that I don't even care about lynching SSBF first anymore.

What is this I don't even-


Seriously? Are you going to strawman like that so early into the day? You said you absolutely refused to lynch Sando and just acted scummy in general. Crypto asked me 'why would he claim gunsmith as town?' because that was the one thing that he couldn't figure out about your play if you were scum. I told him. If you are scum, you want to look like town. If you came into the game and decided from the time you got your role pm 'this is what my fakeclaim is going to be' then it makes perfect sense.

Charter has now resorted to strawmanning, and now he's still fence-sitting.

He has left him self able to quickly switch over to ssbf when my wagon loses steam.


@Crypto: If Charter is town, and a smart and competent player, how could he have possibly taken that so out of context?

@Charter: rtft. Specifically my post 540. Here is the relevant section quoted for you so you can't possibly fuck it up:

Also, after finishing my re-read, unvote, vote:Charter

He claims gunsmith.
Evidence for cops, but no evidence for gunsmiths.
ABSOLUTELY REFUSES TO LYNCH SANDO.
Sando = godfather
Sando lynch = confirming cop almost.

Crypto's question that he apparently asked before (544):

Llama:

Why would charter-scum fake-claim gunsmith at that interval, hiphop?

My answer after I figured it out:

I figured out why Charterscum would claim at the time that he did. Because that's what Chartertown would do.

That's not my reason for voting you, that's my eliminating a reason to NOT vote for you. Now, please stfu, read the thread and then self vote when it becomes obvious that you are scum, or explain why you absolutely refused to lynch Sando.

[llamaeatataco]

double post due to leaving things out:
I'm at l-1 again. Charter has omgus'd and strawmanned even though he acknowledges that my lynch will not clarify things. That lets him off the hook for this particular issue.
Spyrex is voting me for some batshit crazy reason, And he also has claimed that it's not because of the cop thing.

That leaves ssbf and alamaster. Alamaster decided to just put up a v/la notice instead of answering my questions that were more or less pointed directly at him.
However, he's not here, so we just have ssbf.

@SSBF: Do you still think that lynching me would tell you alamaster's alignment? If so, why didn't you read the thread? If not, Do you also have a stupid reason to vote me?

[llamaeatataco]

triplepost because you guys need to be more active.

I'm going to be semi L/A for the next week. I'll only get to post at night here in the States.

Also,

Mod, can we prod anyone yet?

[llamaeatataco]

Roleblocking charter would've been the best move for scum to make since if here were gunsmith he'd be crucial to determining nopo's alignment.

I seem to remember the mod saying that he couldn't tell us what a gunsmith investigation of nopoint would reveal. He could show up as not having a gun like we expect, or he could be a super miller and show up as having a gun even though he doesn't. Basically, it's a 50/50 shot as far as charter investigating noppoint.


I personally don't care between SSBF and Charter. I don't quite see what was initially super scummy about him, but I haven't really liked his play during the end of d1 or d2. But then again, I disliked Charter's play more. You people seem to have other ideas however, and it's more of a 'who do we lynch first' situation. Wait a minute, scratch that.

We lynch Charter: We know that there is A cop, but we don't know which one is real.
We lynch SSBF: we don't know if Charter is legit, but we now have a bunch of wifomy crap to throw at alamaster if he flips town. If he flips scum, we can throw that same crap at Charter.

SSBF is the link between alamaster and Charter, really.

unvote, vote:SSBF

Because I'm too lazy to check who I'm voting for and because I want to make the Mod's life a little bit harder. >:D

[llamaeatataco]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!

I did it again.

Here's what I forgot:

@Hiphop: Like I said, if I don't have to claim I don't want to, because it will only help the scum.

@Alamaster lyncher thing: I would lol if he tried the same trick twice. I also don't think ssbf is legit.

@Crypto:

I see your point, llama, but I don't think "He did it to look pro-town" is a very good argument. Sounds too much like the Too Townie fallacy.

Sounds similar but is completely different. The too townie fallacy is saying that someone is scum because of their town behavior, while I'm saying that not all pro-town moves are made by townies.

[llamaeatataco]

Ah, so you're just going to dismiss it without any response to any of it, just call it garbage. It's not even a case really, it's simply me outlining his d1 actions. But yes, be more clear. Actually, just answer me two questions: Why would town Charter absolutely refuse to lynch Sando, and why would he strawman and misrep in his 601?

Anyway, on to important things:

@Crypto: It's a 50/50 shot as to whether it clears things up (NP has no gun, therefore he is not mafia) or just leaves us in the same situation (NP DOES have a gun and it's either because he's scum or because the miller feature works on gunsmiths as well as cops) just one more day closer to lylo.

[llamaeatataco]

Hiphop, while I agree that it makes sense that millers don't have guns flavor-wise- oh wait, this is a normal game... Mods aren't allowed to do crazy things to roles in normal games, are they? I was just going to say that if he's a deathmiller, the point is to make it so that we have absolutely no way of knowing if he is scum or town, before or after his lynch.

While I agree that ssbf giving an innocent report on alamaster does make him seem to be town from a certain point of view, it doesn't erase the rest of his actions.

Wicked needs to come back. Alamaster needs to come back.

Spyrex needs to stop lurking.

Mod, You have spyrex voting for Crypto and me.

[llamaeatataco]

Screw you alamanatee. I've already explained it, rtft.

@Spyrex: How is trying to choose between a scummy person and a person at a crucial point in the chain of claims scummy?

Insane and sane are, once known, straight up cops.

I'm really tired at the moment but how does SSBF = town == LLama = town ?

Ok, if ssbf is town and a sane cop, then that means that alamaster is most definitely not another sane cop. This means he is either paranoid or insane. That means that alamaster's guilty on me either means nothing, or it means I'm innocent. Now, if he flips to be an insane cop, then we have problems. That would make alamaster's guilty useless. If he flips naiive, fml. So, him being town =/= me being town, but it does make it more likely.


And of course I don't want to claim. Should a town PR ever want to claim if they don't have to? I managed to convince the town how stupid certain members were being, and that was enough.


Hmm. This Charter/ssbf one is annoying. I still stand by my ssbf first decision. It will help us sort out the cops... Unless he is scum, then it will just make all of us be unsurprised.

Oh, and about the gunsmith/miller/godfather thing:

@Spyrex: No, I was saying that since it's a normal the mods aren't supposed to alter the powers of roles. I don't have a problem with them putting in a miller, it's not too abnormal.

@Hiphop: Didn't the flavor say they didn't find anything on him revealing him to be mafia? It could be he has his gun hidden somewhere and thus would appear innocent to a gunsmith. I admit that it's a crazy idea, and I agree with you that Charter is scum, but you're being a little extreme.

[llamaeatataco]

alamaster... Why are you so intent on ignoring everything you don't agree with?

Him being scum does not revolve around there being a cop and that cop being ssbf. It revolves around his scummy actions, right up to and including the obvious OMGUS on me and beginning with his lurking. For me it mostly revolves around his refusing to lynch Sando, something nobody has been able to explain to me. Not even him, and he's posted a few times since I brought it up.

[llamaeatataco]

Hiphop,I'm not quite as precise as you. I find both of them scummy, just to different degrees. I can't tell if someone is scummy town, I can just tell they're scummy. I find both ssbf and Charter scummy. However, I still stand by my decision. SSBF's flip will tell us more than Charter's flip will. We don't even have to know his sanity. Charter can be lynched tomorrow.

[llamaeatataco]

I don't care how scummy charter is. He may be scummy, he may not. It doesn't matter. You don't PUT OFF two competing cop claims for another day. The cop issue needs to be resolved NOW, and lynching charter does NOTHING to help with that.

Exactly.

Unvote. Vote: Super Smash Bros. Fan. I still want to dangle Spy at some point in the near future

I second this.

I still want llama dead because of play.

What play exactly?

Based on my investigation, I am confident in my town read on AlmasterGM. However, I do find it odd that AlmasterGM would claim cop out of the blue. But it is more likely that we have two cops instead of a cop and a gunsmith. Three investigative roles would be broken in town's favor.

Why is 2 cops more likely than a cop and a gunsmith?

[llamaeatataco]

first off, fuck you crypto. This might be my bah post, so I'm making it definitive.

[llamaeatataco]

I feel like a winner. I picked all the scum and then some!

@Charter: IMO attacking Wicked would have made you look even worse, so you didn't get screwed all that bad.

Setup was slightly imbalanced in my opinion. If Alamaster had been a paranoid cop, it would have made things better. Town effectively had 2 cops plus a bg, and town roleblocker is extremely OP'd in the endgame.

After day one, I had pretty much decided Wicked was definitely town. By the end of day 2 I was sure Hiphop was town as well, and maybe even before then, I'm too lazy to check. I find it hilarious that all 3 mafia attacked me throughout the time we were together.

[llamaeatataco]

lol yeah. but i meant it makes up for the stuff he was saying that didnt make sense to me.

90% of his posts?